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Balabanto

Superbeing Rights Debate

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

The problem is, quite reasonably, that there is no way to "Deport" powerful extradimensional deity-level beings.

 

Often there are at least two ways. You can banish them with powerful magic, or you can just "kill" them. Which usually doesn't really kill them but does get them to go home for a while.

 

If the creature has worshippers, they are his only real weakness. The problem is that gods and other beings of this sort typically do not believe in democratic systems, nor will they consent to be tried under them. It's a classic insanity defense.

 

Like most insanity defenses, it will not fly in a court of law. It is not enough to reject democratic systems and refuse to be tried under them. Every terrorist does that. That an individual may be too powerful to bring to justice also has no bearing on its legal status. It merely becomes a fugitive from justice until and and unless someone managed to build a big enough gun to take it down.

 

The issue with clones, at least for me, is that if the master is responsible for all the crimes that the clone commits, because the clone commits them at the behest of the master, then you have double jeopardy if you try the clone for the same crime.

 

No, you do not. If someone orders a crime and its lackey drools and says "Yessss Massster", then both people are committing the crime. They have in fact engaged in a conspiracy to commit the crime.

 

If someone clones itself and then the clone decides on its own to commit a crime, then the cloner is only on the hook for breaking any laws against cloning that may be on the books.

 

If someone creates a clone that can not disobey orders to commit a crime on its behalf, then that someone is guilty of the crime, but the clone is not guilty because it lacked the requisite capacity to form criminal intent. It is legally insane.

 

If someone creates a clone with a bomb in its head and orders it to commit a crime or they'll detonate the bomb, the exact same laws apply to that situation, as would to any other situation where you make some person wear a bomb and commit a crime under threat of death.

 

If someone creates a clone against anti-cloning laws, and then the clone does nothing illegal, the clone-maker has committed a crime, and the clone is the innocent victim of that crime.

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

The problem is, quite reasonably, that there is no way to "Deport" powerful extradimensional deity-level beings.

 

If the creature has worshippers, they are his only real weakness. The problem is that gods and other beings of this sort typically do not believe in democratic systems, nor will they consent to be tried under them. It's a classic insanity defense. And of course, locking up a guy with a name like "The Shadow Lord" in an asylum has it's own set of dire consequences.

 

The issue with clones, at least for me, is that if the master is responsible for all the crimes that the clone commits, because the clone commits them at the behest of the master, then you have double jeopardy if you try the clone for the same crime. This is why clones have no rights in my game, at least in part, because otherwise, all clones get one free ride that ordinary humans who are not clones do not get. The clone defense would be up there with the Mind Control defense. "Your honor, I was mind controlled" would be a viable means of defending yourself from virtually any criminal act. The difference between the Mind Control defense and the Clone defense is that the Clone defense, in a court of law, only works once. If you don't have a means, in game, of detecting and identifying clones from an original, Genetically Engineered Beings, or clones, always get at least one free ride from the court, perhaps more. "Your honor, I was a clone. I reasonably believed that my creator would melt me into a genetic mass of proto-soup if I performed action X, Y, or Z, and by the way, sorry about destroying those fifteen city blocks while Warstar was holding the hypersonic key to my genetic meltdown. According to the laws of the USA, it is illegal to commit suicide, so I could not even end my own life as a reasonable way of refusing his demands. Can I have some coffee?"

 

The moment you accept the existence of a clone that is EXACTLY like the original, and I stress this...reasonable doubt is built into the social equation. If I clone Bob, and I get Bob's clone to kill Fred, am I responsible, or is the clone of Bob? Double jeopardy says that you can't try the clone for the same crime as the cloner. But, if the genetic marker exists, thus proving the entity is a clone, then the clone is a murder weapon, and can be taken into evidence, locked up, and examined. Otherwise, the problem becomes that any lawyer worth five cents can get the clone off from every single crime. It totally destroys the justice system of any free and democratic society.

 

The primary purpose of being a superhero is to protect the innocent and defend the freedoms of the innocent. It is POSSIBLE to bypass these laws and not have the character be a clone. (A PC accidentally ressurrected his own leg. Don't ask how this is possible, but the leg grew into a duplicate of the character.)

 

First the Shadow Lord isn't going to be thought of as any more insane than someone who calls himself "Batman", "Captain America" or even "Iron Man". If Shadow Lord commits a crime then he will be tried. He is big and bad enough that most Super Suppression equipment probably won't work on him. He would be placed in the toughest Cell in Stronghold (Or your equivalent), and he would have to stay there for the Trial. It's really hard to deal with a being like this. The best thing is to trap him in a promise to stay away for a long time, or to prove to him he will get beat at everyone of his schemes (Basically convincing him to find some other dimension that is easier picking).

 

I think you are overlooking something with Clones. From what I have read fingerprints are different even between identical Twins(Who are Genetically Identical). The reason for this is that Environment seems to have something to do with the development of the whorls on your finger tips. So it is quite likely that a clone of someone would have DIFFERENT finger prints. ( article:Straight Dope, do Identical Twins have identical Fingerprints? ). So in all likely hood there wouldn't need to be special genetic Markers for Clones as they wouldn't be completely Identical and couldn't be. The funny thing is that it would be cheaper and better to hire someone to kill your target, than it would be to clone yourself to do the deed.

 

Also Cloning wouldn't destroy the Justice system for the same reason that Identical Twins (or triplets or however many identicals if you there are due to IVF). If you say that your clone did the deed, then you need to prove that there IS a clone to blame. Also since it's unlikely that the original and the clone have the same fingerprints (the Original has had many years for his fingerprints to change from his baby prints, and the copy is newish and hasn't been exposed to the same environments that the original has). So it will be come apparent whether the original or the Clone committed the crime.

 

So it would be ok for a Human to kill someone while attached to a device that could destroy them, but not for a clone?

 

If the Clone has a childlike mentality (is Incompetent in the eyes of the law), then the Creator IS responsible for the actions of his clone. Just like a parent is responsible for the actions of their Minor Children. If the Creator has been brainwashing the Clones as they are created, there is probably evidence at the Cloning facility of this conditioning program. Either Computer files, papers, the Equipment or even witnesses(Lab technicians) can be used as proof of the Clone's Allegations of brainwashing.

 

You keep trying to come up with scenarios where a Clone will be seen as less than human and just be put down like a rabid dog. There will always be a bleeding heart Liberal Lawyer that will put up arguments similar to ones I have given here, and probably better ones as they are Lawyers and I am just a Computer Technician. What I have done here in all of my examples is ask myself what how the law would deal with a human with that kind of impairment.

 

BTW Double Jeopardy just means that you can't be tried for the same crime twice. It doesn't say anything about whether or not your identical Twin brother can't be tried for the same crime that you were just acquitted of (A clone is the same thing as having a twin brother).

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Binary fission seems like the obvious option.

 

I would imagine that they reproduce like Paramecium do when they go for a "Sexual" reproduction. ie Two merge into one, swap genetic materials and then split into 4 individuals different from the originals.

 

Know you know...

Tasha

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Tasha, if I have a Cloner and his Clone, and I convict the clone of the Murder of Bob, I cannot ALSO convict the Clone of the same crime. They are different individuals. They are tried separately, because any sane lawyer will file for separation to protect the rights of his client!

 

Each can claim that the other is guilty. Reasonable doubt is built in. It is likely that most juries will not convict. Everybody walks!

 

If both are convicted of the crime, they can both appeal, and BOTH VERDICTS WILL BE OVERTURNED.

 

Comic Book Cloning tells us that a clone of a superbeing can be indistinguishable from the original, 100 Percent. Not different fingerprints, not anything.

 

Amazing Spider Man 145-151 PROVES this. As does the dreaded Legion of Superheroes Clones of the Dominators arc. As does (Shudder) the Spider Man Clone Saga, although I hate it more than any other comic story ever written.

 

Reasonable Doubt is therefore built in, at least if you read the same comic books I do.

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

I cannot ALSO convict the Clone of the same crime.
This statement is utterly false. Multiple people are convicted of the same murder. It happens. It is not unthinkable. Also, failing that there is the charge of "Conspiracy to Commit Murder". Your reasoning simply isn’t sound.

 

I have no problem with clones not having rights in a campaign. That’s cool, that’s how the campaign works. If I played in a campaign like that, however, I would want them to not have rights because they were not, in fact, human, and had no soul or were not sentient, or whatever. If I played in a campaign where human beings (clone or not) were denied rights (and I mean human rights, not US citizen’s rights) as a matter of convenience for improved conviction ratings I would probably quit the campaign or have my character become a hard-core “clone’s rights” activist.

 

I wonder if you would ignore legal implications for a moment and answer this. Are clones in your campaign world more or less human? Do they have souls (if your campaign deals with souls and the metaphysical at all)? Baring that; are they sentient beings capable of making their own choices and running the whole gamut of human emotions and moral quandaries and lead a completely normal life? If the answer to any of the previous questions is “no”, cool. Kill the flesh-bots! If the answer to the questions is “yes” I think your choice of laws questionable. In fact I would have trouble playing in such a campaign, as my hero would become a villain trying to save innocent people (the clones) from government condoned genocide or unethical imprisonment.

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Amazing Spider Man 145-151 PROVES this. As does the dreaded Legion of Superheroes Clones of the Dominators arc. As does (Shudder) the Spider Man Clone Saga, although I hate it more than any other comic story ever written.

 

Reasonable Doubt is therefore built in, at least if you read the same comic books I do.

 

Personally, I only use comic book tropes I like. If I don't like a trope, in my campaign things don't work that way.

 

Of course, I don't read the same comic books you do. ;)

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

While the issue of perpetrator identification can and does arise with twins and would arise with clones, I doubt that the answer would be to define the clone as being an object or animal. If truly indistinguishable, then they might in fact be defined as the same person and subject to the same penalties. But you already ruled that they would not be indistinguishable, and the United States (and of course Canada) already have charges they can use against groups of people engaged in criminal actions when it isn't sure precisely who personally committed the acts of the group.

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

For a more humorous example:

 

How about a being similar to Kon from Bleach? (i.e. a little stuffed animal that was brought to life by sticking a magic "Soul Candy" pill in its mouth). Bonus if it's also a perv like Kon...

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Tasha, if I have a Cloner and his Clone, and I convict the clone of the Murder of Bob, I cannot ALSO convict the Clone of the same crime. They are different individuals. They are tried separately, because any sane lawyer will file for separation to protect the rights of his client!

 

Each can claim that the other is guilty. Reasonable doubt is built in. It is likely that most juries will not convict. Everybody walks!

 

If both are convicted of the crime, they can both appeal, and BOTH VERDICTS WILL BE OVERTURNED.

 

Comic Book Cloning tells us that a clone of a superbeing can be indistinguishable from the original, 100 Percent. Not different fingerprints, not anything.

 

Amazing Spider Man 145-151 PROVES this. As does the dreaded Legion of Superheroes Clones of the Dominators arc. As does (Shudder) the Spider Man Clone Saga, although I hate it more than any other comic story ever written.

 

Reasonable Doubt is therefore built in, at least if you read the same comic books I do.

 

You and definitely have a different idea of clones. Also possibly of civil liberties for non-human beings. I believe that we as a people should uphold the ideals of our nation's laws. That we take the high road not because it's easy, but because it is the right thing to do. We sometimes miss this ideal when we let our prejudices get the better of us, but we eventually correct the injustice.

 

I don't read Spider Man because frankly Peter Parker just leaves me cold. At worst he just annoys the heck out of me. I always was more a fan of the Fantastic Four, I love the way that they interact. They get into fights with one another, but when it comes down to it they really are a family. So I apparently missed what I understand from reading this board as one of the worst story arc of all time. Funny thing is that instead of cutting such dreck out of your campaign you embraced it esp after you had a bad experience with a PC switch storyline.

 

So I don't have the bad experiences with Clones in Comics you did. In fact my only experience with a Clone was the Superman Clone(ie Superboy) who was a member of the Teen Titans up till they killed him off in the last crappy crisis of mega sales arc. He was interesting. He was the fusion of Superman and Lex Luthor and was dealing with reality of his villanous father when LL activated his evil programing. The greatest thing about that was that his love for Cassie (Wonder Girl) allowed him to become his own person again. Though there was no substiution and Superboy was never portrayed as something to stand in for Superman and ruin his name. So I actually enjoyed the character, he was quite human and flawed (unlike his 'Cousin supes).

 

So I think what folk in this thread are trying to point out. Is that you can treat clones as people and not have the whole world drift into anarchy. I have personally poked holes into the Clones are totally identical theory.

 

Genetically identical doesn't mean that a clone and his progenitor will be Identical in each and every way. I mean fingerprints don't start to cover the differences. Especially if a clone is aged to his 20s and the original is older. In fact the older the original, the less they will look alike (esp for males, as the male jaw and nose keeps growing as you age With the nose becoming a bit larger and jaw becomming longer at the chin). Also Dental work will make a huge change in the progenitor (fillings/ caps/ pulled teeth all change the shape of the jaw). Also any trauma experienced by the progenitor (ie broken bones in childhood, getting in to fights where facial hits are taken.) So I guess it breaks my suspension of disbelief that a clone has to have something added to make them seem different, because the Progenitor will from just living have differences built in. Things that will be VERY difficult to fake in a clone.

 

So ignore what some hack Comic writers say and read up on the science of how people grow and how their environment changes them. That alone will change your viewpoint. Science gives you ways to deal with these issues, and our laws are another way to deal. This thread has the tools to deal with Clones successfuly without genetic markers and without them being "Fleshbots".

 

Tasha

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

The problem here, as far as I can tell is this:

 

What kind of clone?

 

More often than not in comics/cartoons/movies/anime/manga/etc... Clones are an identical (or mostly identical) reproduction of a person or other animal who is controlled in some manner by its creator. In this case I say Balabanto is correct that the clone should have no rights.

 

However occasionally clones are used as a way to "resurrect" a character, or are uncontrolled (IE: Ben Riley) and thus whether or not this "person" has rights is valid debate.

 

Here's the rub, though: How can you prove that said clone falls under category B and not category A? Most of the time you cant.

 

Vampires have the same issue. In almost every version I have seen the creator vampire (sire) has some control/influence over the people he has turned into vampires (embraced/children). So I would say, in a world where vampires are not automatically and irrevocably evil, embracing still causes an issue because the "child" will generally obey its sire. Prove that the sire has no control over your actions and then you can debate whether or not you should have civil rights.

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

You and definitely have a different idea of clones. Also possibly of civil liberties for non-human beings. I believe that we as a people should uphold the ideals of our nation's laws. That we take the high road not because it's easy, but because it is the right thing to do. We sometimes miss this ideal when we let our prejudices get the better of us, but we eventually correct the injustice.

 

I don't read Spider Man because frankly Peter Parker just leaves me cold. At worst he just annoys the heck out of me. I always was more a fan of the Fantastic Four, I love the way that they interact. They get into fights with one another, but when it comes down to it they really are a family. So I apparently missed what I understand from reading this board as one of the worst story arc of all time. Funny thing is that instead of cutting such dreck out of your campaign you embraced it esp after you had a bad experience with a PC switch storyline.

 

So I don't have the bad experiences with Clones in Comics you did. In fact my only experience with a Clone was the Superman Clone(ie Superboy) who was a member of the Teen Titans up till they killed him off in the last crappy crisis of mega sales arc. He was interesting. He was the fusion of Superman and Lex Luthor and was dealing with reality of his villanous father when LL activated his evil programing. The greatest thing about that was that his love for Cassie (Wonder Girl) allowed him to become his own person again. Though there was no substiution and Superboy was never portrayed as something to stand in for Superman and ruin his name. So I actually enjoyed the character, he was quite human and flawed (unlike his 'Cousin supes).

 

So I think what folk in this thread are trying to point out. Is that you can treat clones as people and not have the whole world drift into anarchy. I have personally poked holes into the Clones are totally identical theory.

 

Genetically identical doesn't mean that a clone and his progenitor will be Identical in each and every way. I mean fingerprints don't start to cover the differences. Especially if a clone is aged to his 20s and the original is older. In fact the older the original, the less they will look alike (esp for males, as the male jaw and nose keeps growing as you age With the nose becoming a bit larger and jaw becomming longer at the chin). Also Dental work will make a huge change in the progenitor (fillings/ caps/ pulled teeth all change the shape of the jaw). Also any trauma experienced by the progenitor (ie broken bones in childhood, getting in to fights where facial hits are taken.) So I guess it breaks my suspension of disbelief that a clone has to have something added to make them seem different, because the Progenitor will from just living have differences built in. Things that will be VERY difficult to fake in a clone.

 

So ignore what some hack Comic writers say and read up on the science of how people grow and how their environment changes them. That alone will change your viewpoint. Science gives you ways to deal with these issues, and our laws are another way to deal. This thread has the tools to deal with Clones successfuly without genetic markers and without them being "Fleshbots".

 

Tasha

 

Using realism as a shield will not be a sufficient answer for most player character groups. It places an unfair demand on people who have more scientific knowledge and leads to a SIGNIFICANT problem. That problem is this:

 

Falling back on realistic science destroys four color comic book games. Completely. Without fail. People inevitably make darker, grittier and more realistic characters, and the game falls apart. This is a bad answer. It also requires more science than everyone is willing to learn, and if the PC's don't understand the science behind it, the PLAYERS WILL COMPLAIN.

 

Trust me, this is not a road you want to go down. Real World vs. Championsworld has caused fights between players and GMs before, and it will again.

 

If you use real world science as a shield for this argument, you ALSO have to deal with it's CONSEQUENCES. The Religious Right, the political issues surrounding stem cell research, etc. And I have some VERY left leaning and VERY right leaning people in my group. You cannot seriously suggest that this will not boil over. It always does. Perhaps your group is neatly homogenous, but what you're suggesting, quite simply, makes no sense within the social and political dynamic of a diverse group of people between the ages of 30-60.

 

As for the idea that eventually we correct the injustice? Really? The Red Scare. Mccarthy Walked. Nixon Walked. Ronald Reagan Walked. Bill Clinton Walked. Dick Cheney Walked. They all WALKED. They did the crime, and they did not do the time. Some of them didn't even get arrested.

 

These injustices were not "Corrected" Tasha. They GOT AWAY WITH IT! Truth is not a substitute for punishment. :)

 

In a superhero game, the superheroes are the ones responsible for upholding those high ideals. That means that when the bad guy walks, they say something like "We'll be waiting."

 

But do this enough, to PLAYER CHARACTERS, and you will find that the lengths that they are willing to go to just to keep ANY villain in prison are outrageous. It makes the game "not fun." Therefore, a mechanism by which ALL Clones are allowed to "get away with it" is not fair to the PC's.

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

I'm just confused here. If you're the GM and you have issues with clones, why are you even allowing that level of high-tech mad science in the game world in the first place?

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Using realism as a shield will not be a sufficient answer for most player character groups. It places an unfair demand on people who have more scientific knowledge and leads to a SIGNIFICANT problem. That problem is this:

 

Falling back on realistic science destroys four color comic book games. Completely. Without fail. People inevitably make darker, grittier and more realistic characters, and the game falls apart. This is a bad answer. It also requires more science than everyone is willing to learn, and if the PC's don't understand the science behind it, the PLAYERS WILL COMPLAIN.

 

Trust me, this is not a road you want to go down. Real World vs. Championsworld has caused fights between players and GMs before, and it will again.

 

If you use real world science as a shield for this argument, you ALSO have to deal with it's CONSEQUENCES. The Religious Right, the political issues surrounding stem cell research, etc. And I have some VERY left leaning and VERY right leaning people in my group. You cannot seriously suggest that this will not boil over. It always does. Perhaps your group is neatly homogenous, but what you're suggesting, quite simply, makes no sense within the social and political dynamic of a diverse group of people between the ages of 30-60.

 

As for the idea that eventually we correct the injustice? Really? The Red Scare. Mccarthy Walked. Nixon Walked. Ronald Reagan Walked. Bill Clinton Walked. Dick Cheney Walked. They all WALKED. They did the crime, and they did not do the time. Some of them didn't even get arrested.

 

These injustices were not "Corrected" Tasha. They GOT AWAY WITH IT! Truth is not a substitute for punishment. :)

 

In a superhero game, the superheroes are the ones responsible for upholding those high ideals. That means that when the bad guy walks, they say something like "We'll be waiting."

 

But do this enough, to PLAYER CHARACTERS, and you will find that the lengths that they are willing to go to just to keep ANY villain in prison are outrageous. It makes the game "not fun." Therefore, a mechanism by which ALL Clones are allowed to "get away with it" is not fair to the PC's.

 

Actually I was talking about laws that had injustice written into them. Like Women's right to vote, minority Rights to vote, things like this. I won't get into more as I don't want to cause this thread to get worse. Yes I will concede that the Rich and Powerful will sometimes not pay for their crimes, or will not face as stiff as sentence as a poor person.

 

I don't run a four color game, and I don't know anyone who as run a four color game since the first game we played. Basically noone I play with likes the feel of Golden Age and Silver age Games. As for Villains getting away with their crimes, I usually hand wave the whole thing and say that the Villain was convicted. Unless I want to run a plot that upsets the campaign. Because people don't like the Villain to escape every time. Villains who always escape will sometimes find themselves turned into corpses if the Players get frustrated enough.

 

More later,

Tasha

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

hmmm. Interesting my crowd loves recurring villains. I usually ask them when a bad guy is captured if the want to see him back and how soon. Unless he's crossed over the line ( done some really low,heinous and personal to a player or beloved NPC) its let him cool off for one or 2 appearances of his associates and then lets have him back if they liked him at all.

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

hmmm. Interesting my crowd loves recurring villains. I usually ask them when a bad guy is captured if the want to see him back and how soon. Unless he's crossed over the line ( done some really low' date='heinous and personal to a player or beloved NPC) its let him cool off for one or 2 appearances of his associates and then lets have him back if they liked him at all.[/quote']

 

My players don't mind Recurring villians if they aren't constantly escaping from Stronghold. Sometimes I have Villians escape by leaving when it's starting to look like they might lose the whole battle. (ie Mechanon's brain escape pod). Yes it can be fun having a rogues gallery, but I have found that you need to give the Players time before you pull the same villians over and over.

 

Basically you and I agree on this point :D

 

Tasha

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Clones and the Fine Art of Murder

 

Tasha' date=' if I have a Cloner and his Clone, and I convict the clone of the Murder of Bob, I cannot ALSO convict the Clone of the same crime. They are different individuals. They are tried separately, because any sane lawyer will file for separation to protect the rights of his client![/quote']

You can convict two people for one murder. Charge one as the murderer and one as the accessory. If 10 people assisted, then all of them can be charged as accessories.

 

This is real-world law. There are two people serving time for the murder of my grandparents. Only one of them pulled the trigger; the other was charged as an accessory.

 

You can also charge both of them for conspiring to commit murder.

 

The defense attorney(s) could file for separation, but they won't necessarily get it. (In other words, they'd need to provide a more compelling reason than you've outlined.)

 

Each can claim that the other is guilty. Reasonable doubt is built in. It is likely that most juries will not convict. Everybody walks!

Juries don't like to let murderers walk. They're much more inclinded to ignore reasonable doubt.

 

Let's say I create a clone of myself to murder Balabanto. While the clone is committing the murder, I hang out in a public place to provide myself an alibi.

 

When we're caught and brought to trial, the district attorney charges one of us as the murderer, charges the other as an accessory (for providing the alibi), and charges both of us for conspiracy to commit murder.

 

If the jury is convinced that we both participated in murdering Balabanto, they're not going to let us walk. (They'll happily ignore their doubt over which class A felony we're guilty of. They'll sleep well knowing we were guilty of at least one class A felony apiece.) The only way we would survive on reasonable doubt would be if we convinced the jury that one of us was completely guilty and the other was completely innocent ... and they still weren't sure which was which.

 

If both are convicted of the crime' date=' they can both appeal, and BOTH VERDICTS WILL BE OVERTURNED.[/quote']

This earns us a new trial, where we'll both be convicted again.

 

Repeat process until we run out of money to hire attorneys.

 

Comic Book Cloning tells us that a clone of a superbeing can be indistinguishable from the original' date=' 100 Percent. Not different fingerprints, not anything.[/quote']

I'm not playing a comic book. I'm playing a role-playing game. Clones have identical fingerprints only if the GM decides they do.

 

If the clone is obeying my orders, then we're not identical. I'm in charge, and the clone lacks willpower. This makes us different ... if only on a mental level. Telepathy will clearly show the difference.

 

If my clone and I are truly identical, Balabanto will never be murdered. Because both the clone and I will volunteer to provide the public alibi while insisting that the other one should pull the trigger.

 

Reasonable Doubt is therefore built in' date=' at least if you read the same comic books I do.[/quote']

I try to make my games a little less predictable than comic books.

____________

 

How to Commit a Murder with a Clone (and Get Away with It)

 

I decide who I want to murder (Marcus this time), and I decide who I want to frame (Balabanto).

 

I secretly create a clone of Balabanto and ensure the clone is under my control.

 

I choose a time when I have an alibi (I'm in public with lots of witnesses) and Balabanto has no alibi (he's home alone). I send the clone to murder Marcus in a very public venue, but not so public that the clone can't escape.

 

A few hours after the murder, I secretly meet up with the clone, murder the clone, and render it down to protoplasmic goo (so nobody can tell that it was genetically identical to Balabanto).

 

Now Marcus is dead. I'm "clearly" innocent of his murder. Balabanto is framed for murder. And Balabanto doesn't have a clone that he can point at for "reasonable doubt".

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Incidentally, I'd assess that the people most inclined to clone themselves and commit crimes are the people most likely to end up killing each other to decide who will be the "real" one rather than keeping their eye on the ball. In my experience it's a self-correcting problem. A bigger problem of course are the people who clone _other_ people to create evil twins but that doesn't pose as much of an identification problem.

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Balabanto, I would appreciate if you would respond to paragraph three on post #81. I think if you explain how clones work in your universe, (not how the legal system concerning them works, just how clones themselves work) it may help clear up your position.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1837054&postcount=81

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Chuckie Manson is currently in prison on several murder charges. He was not present when the crime was committed. He ordered someone else to do it. He and the perpetrators both went to prison.

 

Chuck Manson, Mafia Kingpins, Terrorist Leaders, and others have all been charged and found guilty along with thier minions for crimes. Ordering a crime, when you know the order will be obeyed, is committing the crime.

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

No takers on Kon from Bleach? :confused:

 

I have, in my fantasy game, summoned creatures which are lifeforms deemed "to be without a soul" and legally slaves.

 

So, in my fantasy game, if Kon could demonstrate that he had a soul (which admittedly would be hard since animated plushy and even cat girls are consider soulless since they are usually summoned). My world hasn't encountered artificial souls and doesn't have an easy way to detect souls (except by shadow creatures being shadowy or by cat girls being cat girls and assumed to be created "ex nihilo" by a mortal being using magic) so the fact that Kon has an artificial soul would not be a problem so much as proving that he is a ensouled creature which would be a great debate indeed. The undead are also considered to be animated corpses, so it behooves them to not be detected as undead.

 

Now, in the modern world, I like to think Kon could be entitled to basic human rights by the duck test. Although the law can come up with some fairly abstruse reasons.

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Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

No takers on Kon from Bleach? :confused:

 

Well first of all, he fits into the illegal alien category. He was manufactured in another plane of existence and transported to Japan without being given legal entry. He has a good shot at a political refugee claim though, since he's a slave up for termination as "defective". His political status would actually be more troublesome if he was an artificial intelligence manufactured in Japan, because that would mean he'd start out having a Japanese owner and would need to establish in a court of law that he was a legal person rather than malfunctioning machinery.

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