6E Rules changes confirmed so far

[incrdbil]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Exactly the changes take the fun away for me.

 

::facepalm::

 

Yep, the entire enjoyment of the game came from how Endurance's base value was calculated.

[archermoo]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I sort of followed that. I'm still scratching my head about it, but I'll acknowledge there are people out there who could interpret it that way. It takes all kinds...

 

But then again, I did say I was being pedantic...

 

Just so that I understand you, it seems like you are saying that with no background (i.e. not knowing anything about discussions about decoupling figured characteristics or the like) when faced with the statement "Figured Characteristics are going away" the only logical conclusion that they should draw should be "the Characteristics that are currently figured will no longer be based on other Characteristics but will have a static base value". And that when seeing a statement that "Figured Characteristics are going away" it would be unreasonable for them to assume that the block of characteristics that are currently figured will be being removed from the rules? Is that a correct assessment of your position?

[NestorDRod]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

But you've tried raisins. You don't look at raisins and say "Those things look gross' date=' I'm not going to eat that."[/quote']

 

Please refer to my response to rjcurrie's almost-identical comment.

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

OK' date=' I have tried being without the BBB powers of Regeneration and Instant change for some time now. The Frankenrules patches substitutes are not satisfactory. What in this makes me even suspect I will like having to take the same approch to Find Weakness?[/quote']

 

I don't think Steve has any plans to even present a Frankenrules version of Find Weakness, but I could be wrong.

 

I'm not sure that I've built a character for 5e that has had any need for Instant Change. For many of them, it's simply a matter of the costume appearing as part of the SFX of activating a Power. For the others, they simple take the one phase to change clothes. So I can't say that I really missed Instant Change at all.

 

On the other hand, I'm not crazy about the Regeneration build. But there was more about 5e that I liked than I didn't so it was really just a very minor annoyance the few times I used Regeneration.

[NestorDRod]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Just so that I understand you' date=' it seems like you are saying that with no background (i.e. not knowing anything about discussions about decoupling figured characteristics or the like) when faced with the statement "Figured Characteristics are going away" the only logical conclusion that they should draw should be "the Characteristics that are currently figured will no longer be based on other Characteristics but will have a static base value". And that when seeing a statement that "Figured Characteristics are going away" it would be unreasonable for them to assume that the block of characteristics that are currently figured will be being removed from the rules? Is that a correct assessment of your position?[/quote']

 

Not exactly. I'm inferring that I'm expecting anyone exhibiting an interest in the topic to have at least a basic knowledge of the system and the changes as they have been presented, but acknowledge the fact that my expectations may be set high.

[McCoy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Not to mention the childish hyperbole that is typical of geeks when something they have become way too attached to is threatened (for example' date=' a TV show they like is cancelled and they start shooting their mouths off about boycotting the network).[/quote']

You boycott the sponsors, not the network!

[The Main Man]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

One thing is clear - this is something that people DO care about. 43 pages in 2 days. That has to be some sort of record.

 

So it's not just me.The growth of this thread is kinda freakish.We might want to get it checked.It's only going to get worse after tonight's updates.And before anyone guesses, it's not lupus.

[teh bunneh]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I'd like to just mention something that might be handy for folks to remember: Extreme positions can and do push people into the opposite extreme camp.

 

If one person says, "I'm not sure I like some of these changes," an over-enthusiastic defense of the changes can easily push them into the "I hate these changes!" camp.

 

On the same lines, saying "This is the stupidest thing ever! You're ruining everything! This is toilet paper" can have the same effect, pushing people to say things they might not ordinarily say.

 

So, you know. Let's try to calm down a bit. We're all here because we like the Hero system. Some of the changes will be good, some will be bad. You'll like some of them, you'll dislike others -- and some of the ones you like or dislike, others will feel just the opposite. You may or may not buy the new books. That's all fine. We're allowed to have different opinions (and really, that's all any of this is -- just opinions). Let's not turn this into a war.

 

 

 

Just don't get me started on those a*****es who play d20!

[archermoo]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Sigh. But the intrinsic value of the Characteristic' date=' [i']by itself[/i], has changed.

 

It's already been illustrated in this thread. What 5 points of DEX give you now, and what they'll give you in 6e. And the second list is shorter.

 

Whether a good or bad change, it's still a change. So claiming that the Characteristic's functionality is unchanged is misleading.

 

But it hasn't changed in any way that effects game play. The only changes to characteristics (at least so far as have been announced) just effect how you buy things. The character can still have exactly the same functionality, they just buy it differently. You can buy a character that goes at Dex 24, has a base of 14- for Agility Skills, an OCV and DCV of 8, and a Speed of 5. HOW you buy that functionality is changing, but the ability to HAVE that functionality isn't.

 

I never claimed that the functionality of each individual characteristic was remaining the same. Certainly it isn't. But the in game functionality gained by buying characteristics in 5e can be exactly duplicated in 6e. How it is purchased is changing, and the total cost will likely be different. But the exact same in game functionality can still be had.

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

You boycott the sponsors' date=' not the network![/quote']

 

Which still seems strange to me. The show's over. It's gone. I move on. I might watch it again in reruns or on DVD but I don't moan on about its demise years later.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

"Constitution builds strong bodies five ways" Of ED' date=' REC, END and STUN if I need to tweak two I go back and change the CON instead. I may raise STUN to a round number, but that is simply an asthetic thing, if I'm point strapped I'll skip it.[/quote']

 

I have a high threshold of pain, which I've built with high CON, which gives me high STUN and (for some reason) ED (- why?) but I don't want high REC or END because although I'm tough my lungs were chemically burnt in an industrial accident, so I want to sell back the REC and END. I can't? But it makes perfect sense for my concept!

 

Also we never really knew what CON was worth. Virtually all of its value was concentrated in the figured characteristics: you get 21 points of value for spending 20 points on CON. What is it worth 'alone' - avoiding being stunned is useful, but that is what it is mainly used for as CON rolls tend to be rare.

 

(And that sounds suspiciously like a quote from a supplement from about 2nd or 3rd ed...)

 

In fact' date=' I almost never tweak PD or ED as a characteristic, since rPD and rED are the unacknowledged characteristics it makes more sense to buy Armor (focused or not, depending on the concept) or Force Field than to change PD & ED.[/quote']

 

IME PD and ED are almost always tweaked, if only because I don't like characters to necessarily have unbreachable resistant defences, and it generally is not necessary - it is usually cheaper and just as effective to buy pd/ed+armour, but everyone will have their own experience of this.

 

SPD almost always gets tweaked, usually raised to the next whole number so the points as "fractional SPD" won't be wasted. Pre 5th would sometimes lower SPD on a few bricks, slow but accurate.

 

So rather than "almost inevitably - we change most of the figured characteristic values," I change one or two, then buy powers to supplement two more.

 

So unless in SexEd armor and force field have been reduced to Special Effects for increased DEF (which actually would not surprise me), I will have to assign values to characteristics I formally would have left alone.

 

Well, looking, for example, at the sample characters in 5ER, only one of the 12 has fewer than half their figured characteristics point modified (The Verdict only modifies 2), and 5 of them have more than half of their figured characteristics modified.

 

Now if the change means that you modify more of what are currently figured characteristics, that might take longer, but then you are not calculating the figureds. You still have to write down a number, even if you do not modify anything. Anyway, none of us are going to take more thana few seconds longer even the first time we build a 6thed character.

 

We'll probably see more variation in character design this way too - figured characteristics can make you lazy - how many times have any of us thought 'how much stun SHOULD this character have?' instead of just eyeballing the figured STUN and dumping any spare points there?

 

The more I think about it, the less of an issue it seems.

[Beast]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

with the dropping of the Com stat to now become a talent

why not do the same thing to the Int stat

make it a talent also each level would add +1 to all Int based rolls(including perception)and call it Smarts

 

I found that Com could be used as a complementry roll or used in place of Presence where the character was more based on looks rather than personality with those social skills

 

now with it as a talent we lose that feature

I also liked that a Com roll could give an 'Eye of the Beholder" effect where an NPC might chose someone else because there was something more appealing to them (the one with the highest Com may not always be the winner)

instead of the "I'll have the pretty one"

 

 

 

Which doesn't stop you from buying the same characteristics at the same values and ratios. With the exception of COM you will still be able to purchase a character with the exact same values for all of their characteristics' date=' the same total leaping and the same CV/ECV. The point cost might be different, but the values can be exactly the same.[/quote']

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Let's not turn this into a war.

 

Everyone, attack teh bunneh!!!!!

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

It isn't at all irrelevant. You will be able to have a character that has the exact same in game effects (as far as characteristics go' date=' excepting COM) in 6e as you can in 5e. You will purchase it somewhat differently, but the overall in game effect hasn't changed.[/quote']

 

I agree entirely - your build might look slightly different in terms of point distribution but the end effect will be that you can have a character who works identically to one that you play now.

 

Nothing about the in-game experience will be changed by this.

[schir1964]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

...So' date=' you know. Let's try to calm down a bit. We're all here because we like the Hero system. Some of the changes will be good, some will be bad. You'll like some of them, you'll dislike others -- and some of the ones you like or dislike, others will feel just the opposite. You may or may not buy the new books. That's all fine. We're allowed to have different opinions (and really, that's all any of this is -- just opinions). Let's not turn this into a war...[/quote']

Thank you.

 

Although it's been a war since the start of the 6th Edition Threads. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[teh bunneh]

This is what I get for playing peacemaker!

 

Everyone' date=' attack teh bunneh!!!!![/quote']

 

He let his defenses down! GET HIM!!!

 

 

 

Wait... what?

[archermoo]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Not exactly. I'm inferring that I'm expecting anyone exhibiting an interest in the topic to have at least a basic knowledge of the system and the changes as they have been presented' date=' but acknowledge the fact that my expectations may be set high. [/quote']

 

I agree that it is reasonable to expect that they'll have at least basic knowledge of the system. Heck, they could have extensive knowledge of the system. But without the second part (knowledge of what changes have been proposed) that doesn't help. In fact I'd say that knowledge of the system is required for the statement to be misleading. If you don't know what Figured Characteristics are, being told that they are going away doesn't mean anything.

 

And I don't think it is reasonable to assume that everyone who is interested in what 6th edition will be like has been here on the boards following the discussions about it. I'm sure there are quite a few people that are interested in what changes are going to be made who have never even been to the Hero boards.

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

So it's not just me.The growth of this thread is kinda freakish.We might want to get it checked.It's only going to get worse after tonight's updates.And before anyone guesses, it's not lupus.

 

I'm not so sure that Steve is going to reveal anything more -- especially after this thread.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I'm sure Steve will tease us with something... I mean... it's Steve. He's got this brand new shiny car that's begging to be shown off.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

with the dropping of the Com stat to now become a talent

why not do the same thing to the Int stat

make it a talent also each level would add +1 to all Int based rolls(including perception)and call it Smarts

 

I found that Com could be used as a complementry roll or used in place of Presence where the character was more based on looks rather than personality with those social skills

 

now with it as a talent we lose that feature

I also liked that a Com roll could give an 'Eye of the Beholder" effect where an NPC might chose someone else because there was something more appealing to them (the one with the highest Com may not always be the winner)

instead of the "I'll have the pretty one"

 

 

I agree about INT: it is only used for INT rolls, so it makes sense.

 

As to the eye of the beholder effect from COM, complimentary rolls never make things worse, so it isn't a true measure anyway, but you'll still be able to do that:

 

+2 levels with interaction skills (only where appearance is a factor) (14- activation)

 

In fact this allows more fine tuning of how idiosyncratic your good looks are - most people do not find you that attractive but some find you stunning (Grace Jones, perhaps?), change the activation to 8-.

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

with the dropping of the Com stat to now become a talent

why not do the same thing to the Int stat

make it a talent also each level would add +1 to all Int based rolls(including perception)and call it Smarts

 

I found that Com could be used as a complementry roll or used in place of Presence where the character was more based on looks rather than personality with those social skills

 

now with it as a talent we lose that feature

I also liked that a Com roll could give an 'Eye of the Beholder" effect where an NPC might chose someone else because there was something more appealing to them (the one with the highest Com may not always be the winner)

instead of the "I'll have the pretty one"

 

I might argue a few of the specifics with you but in general, I think I agree with you that the loss of COM may have a bigger effect on how the game is played than the decoupling of Figureds and CVs.

[torchwolf]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Instant Change is probably done with Transform to conform to existing mechanics. Sure, it could have been done with Images, Shape Change, or others, but with Transform, your clothes are in fact actually changed. I didn't like it at first, but it actually makes more sense than having a Power that only does a single thing. On the other hand, Transform has been pulling a very heavy load for quite some time (ever since 4th Ed). We'll see what's been done in 6E, maybe that's a reason for a couple new Powers.

 

 

Previous editions of characters:

 

All that really matters is the difference in costs. If you want to build Characteristics the current way (including coupled Figured and/or keeping the unnamed one), all you need to do is do it that way. If you want to use older-edition characters, what will matter most, is the cost difference (for comparison of power levels etc.).

 

Characteristics are modular enough that you can use either version without it impacting on the rest of the game system. From what I've seen so far, everyone can still use the 90-95% of 6E which will be everything apart from the Characteristics section without imbalancing anything but the new costs for Characteristics. Assuming, of course, that everything else is not re-costed significantly, but since STR is supposed to add the same way I don't see that coming.

[jtelson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I found that Com could be used as a complementry roll or used in place of Presence where the character was more based on looks rather than personality with those social skills

 

now with it as a talent we lose that feature

I also liked that a Com roll could give an 'Eye of the Beholder" effect where an NPC might chose someone else because there was something more appealing to them (the one with the highest Com may not always be the winner)

instead of the "I'll have the pretty one"

 

Do we know that COM the talent is going to be a straight add and not continue to employ the same or similar (elegant) mechanic that it did as COM the stat? Not too hard to make it a talent purchased as a roll. Probably how I will toolkit it even if it's not in the new edition.

[Beast]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

neither was it my understanding either

I could see a few tweaks(Str only goes for lifting and damage,use body pd,rec and more for stun)

recost Dex to be more inline with the cost of levels or recost Levels to be more in line with Dex

 

those I see as tweaks

divorcing figured stats to become primaries that is major IMHO

 

 

Really? Hmm.

 

OK then, show of hands, please? How many of the folks here in this discussion think that saying "Figured characteristics are going away" means that the characteristics themselves are being removed?

 

'Cause that certainly wasn't my understanding...

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I agree about INT: it is only used for INT rolls, so it makes sense*.

 

*Having said that draining INT has a significant effect, whereas draining COM doesn;t, really.

 

It may also still be the base for Perception -- Steve hasn't said anything about that. And INT-Based Skills but I guess you were including them in INT Rolls.

 

Also, we don't know if Steve added any additional functionality to the Characteristic.