6E Rules changes confirmed so far

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Most of the posts I am seeing on this is all 'sky is falling down' kind of hysteria. No one is really taking a close look at this beyond the fact that Hero is removing a favorite mechanic. No one seems to be looking at how they could make this work in their game.

 

At this point, I don't have to. Steve Long is going to do all of that work for me.

[nexus]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well there are levels of Ambidexterity. Not every person who is ambi is completely ambi. So if it's just flavor then just spend the minimum on it. If they have 2 weapons and 2 weapon fighting and the other talents taht make it work. Then 9pts is about right

.

 

Two Weapon Fighting negates off hand penalties on its own when you use it so if your only purpose is combat getting it and ambidexterity would be a little redundant.

[CTaylor]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Ambidexterity costs far too much for what it gives you, so I'm hoping that will be addressed in the coming new addition. Shrinking costs too much and gives too much of a bonus (half the bonuses and the cost and we've got a reasonable power). There's a lot that's not been said or touched on that could be really cool and I hope Mr Long gives us a bit more information about those changes to help sooth the concerns of some people who are unhappy with some of what's been announced so far.

[nexus]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

At this point' date=' I don't have to. Steve Long is going to do all of that work for me. [/quote']

 

Well, the thing is (and for the record, I don't think anyone is talking about the sky falling) is I don't see why I have to "make it work" in my games when my games are working to my satisfaction now. I haven't seen anything produced yet that seems worth 80 or bucks yet. Maybe when the book is released they'll be more in it that seems worth the cash and the retrofitting but so far nothing has been (to me) anything more than marginal improvement and somethings actively worse.

 

But the sky is not going to fall if I don't shift to 6th and that what most folks have been saying right now.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I'm hoping that Steve reduces the default values for Disadvantages -- Complications. I always hated trying to come up with 150 pts of them.

 

 

Funny my group will take some after they've maxed out on a category just because the character would have that disadvantage. I've ended up with no total maximum for disadvantages, they just take them until the character is properly fleshed out to concept and then they're done.

 

I guess my group is apparently very weird.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

 

Also I find that many GM's esp Male GM's are very reluctant to deal with anything that touches on physical attraction and those kind of relationships. .

Not me and my bunch. Seduction is going on all the time. Relationships etc. Some players are playing their own kids who were conceived in game time. Lets not forget the seductive villain or PC fem fatale.

 

I know once again odd group.

[CTaylor]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

It depends a whole lot on your character conception. Some builds just don't lend themselves to a lot of disads, some do. Sometimes the requirements of GMs tend to make people get a lot of filler just to have the points, sometimes people are really good at building a very flawed character and have more points in disads than they are required to have. It's pretty variable, in my experience.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

in a well written up campaign world' date=' with a pc that has a good background i rarely have trouble coming up with 150pts in disads. When i have issues then i know that i haven't really thought out the character well.[/quote']

 

qft

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Another issue is that if your group has a large total number of disadvantages, they simply won't be put into play as often as their point values would indicate, barring things like group hunteds. Less Disads makes the GM's job easier to a degree.

[NestorDRod]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Not me and my bunch. Seduction is going on all the time. Relationships etc. Some players are playing their own kids who were conceived in game time. Lets not forget the seductive villain or PC fem fatale.

 

I know once again odd group.

 

Hey, if that's odd, I'm right there with you.

 

In the first big superhero campaign was in that my wife played in, the HQ had a swimming pool that was used for evening "entertainment" so much the code word for sex in the team became "splash, splash, splash."

 

In the follow-on campaign, my character played midwife to my wife's character as she gave birth to the son of a god.

 

It's all about what the group as a whole is comfortable with, though, so I can understand some reservations.

[mattingly]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Less Disads makes the GM's job easier to a degree.

I disagree. My group of 12 Champions characters has 1,800 points in Disads for my to choose from. My adventures write themselves, really.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well' date=' the thing is (and for the record, I don't think anyone is talking about the sky falling) is I don't see why I have to "make it work" in my games when my games are working to my satisfaction now. I haven't seen anything produced yet that seems worth 80 or bucks yet. [i']Maybe[/i] when the book is released they'll be more in it that seems worth the cash and the retrofitting but so far nothing has been (to me) anything more than marginal improvement and somethings actively worse.

 

But the sky is not going to fall if I don't shift to 6th and that what most folks have been saying right now.

 

But that was pretty much the case with 5th as well. I think 4th was the only one where you pretty much had to switch over, because it was just way too convenient compared to the kit-bashing involved for assembling all the "3rd edition hero system rules".

 

I expect some people may wait 6 months to a year(or even two) before giving it a try.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I disagree. My group of 12 Champions characters has 1' date='800 points in Disads for my to choose from. My adventures write themselves, really.[/quote']

 

Exactly! especially after a little interaction and in game history builds up.

[CTaylor]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I think that sometimes a lot of strongly conceived disads on characters can become intimidating because a good GM will want to play and involve all of those and if there's a lot, it becomes difficult to give any or all of them the justice and attention you might think they deserve.

[nexus]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Not me and my bunch. Seduction is going on all the time. Relationships etc. Some players are playing their own kids who were conceived in game time. Lets not forget the seductive villain or PC fem fatale.

 

I know once again odd group.

 

I've had my games called more soap opera than superhero more than once.

[nexus]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I disagree. My group of 12 Champions characters has 1' date='800 points in Disads for my to choose from. My adventures write themselves, really.[/quote']

 

Wow!

[nexus]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

But that was pretty much the case with 5th as well.

 

I got into Fifth pretty quickly as I had a much more positive buzz about it at that time. It took me awhile to get revised and sometimes it still feels like a waste of money.

 

I expect some people may wait 6 months to a year(or even two) before giving it a try.

 

Very possible. Among other reason peer pressure can be potent unless you're just dead set against something. I admit that's mainly the reason I have revised.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I've had my games called more soap opera than superhero more than once.

 

Actually those tend to be the best kind of games. As long as there are occasionally Villains to beat up, I would be content

[Edsel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Took me a little bit to get used to having that extra hundred points to play with. Not a lot' date=' but a 350 pt. 5th Edition character looks a lot less sparse than a 250 pt. 4th Edition character. The disconnect this time probably won't be as much. We're just going to be spending a few extra points to get to the same level of character that we're used to now.[/quote']

 

Back in the 250 point days most of the Champions campaigns that I played in had house rules that required 25 to 50 points of skills for characters. Frankly I didn't really like the idea of boosting up to 350 points, but since all of the subsequently released material (enemies, npcs, etc.) were based upon this the transition wasn't too bad.

 

I'm hoping that Steve reduces the default values for Disadvantages -- Complications. I always hated trying to come up with 150 pts of them.

 

150 points is an optional guideline for the maximum number of disads you can take. I have had several players opt to take less than this value. It has also been common in our group to allow a lesser amount for the high end. For instance instead of playing 200 + 150 disads, we would do something like 250+100 or even 275 + 75. The idea being that fewer well-played disads are better than a bunch that do not enter play as often. Of course our group is eight players so individual disads don't get tapped as often by the GM when having to run that big a circus.

 

Not me and my bunch. Seduction is going on all the time. Relationships etc. Some players are playing their own kids who were conceived in game time. Lets not forget the seductive villain or PC fem fatale.

 

I know once again odd group.

 

I have rarely had a character that did not have that skill. A lot of our players take it as well though some seem shy about using it. Changing the name to "Charm" will probably relax people a bit about using it for non-sexual efforts (befriending, etc.).

 

But that was pretty much the case with 5th as well. I think 4th was the only one where you pretty much had to switch over, because it was just way too convenient compared to the kit-bashing involved for assembling all the "3rd edition hero system rules".

 

I expect some people may wait 6 months to a year(or even two) before giving it a try.

 

Fortunately I will probably get a chance to see how both work side by side. Personally I have decided against buying 6E since most of the announced changes are very much disliked by me. However our group's other GM is very keen on the new stuff. I figure he will buy it and use it for his campaigns. Sadly, this means that each of us will be running the game system we want to play while we each play the system that we don't like. If I find the new rules enjoyable then I can buy them once I am satisfied that they are worth it.

 

I am perfectly willing to play the new system throughly before I give it a thumbs up or down. But I can say that I am very discouraged going into it.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I got into Fifth pretty quickly as I had a much more positive buzz about it at that time. It took me awhile to get revised and sometimes it still feels like a waste of money.

 

Very possible. Among other reason peer pressure can be potent unless you're just dead set against something. I admit that's mainly the reason I have revised.

 

I purchased 5th because of all of the talk about Steve's work at cleaning up the rules. I was also pretty impressed that Steve had come up with so many explanations for the various powers that they had to edit out a bunch of it to keep page count reasonable. I had been Quite impressed with is work on Dark Champions and Justice not Law. So I knew that this edition would be a good one.

 

I was annoyed with a couple of changed ie Regen, Instant Change and one other. For the most part I felt that the changes were for the better. I was disappointed that Creation Workshop was being abandoned esp as that software printed out Beautiful Character sheets (something that Hero Designer still has problems with). I do have to say that barring some interface quirks Hero Designer is easier to use over all. As for 5th edition I was quite happy that recommended point values for Supers was being raised to 350 pts seeing as my group was nearly at that point level any ways. The rules were written well enough that they solved many issues that caused arguments

 

I have to admit, I am always intrigued by the newest flavor in town. So I will buy this edition and unless it is completely unplayable, I'll buy all of it's suppliments in including sourcebooks that I have like 4 different editions of (ie Champions and Fantasy Hero). That's they way I am

[CTaylor]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Personally I have decided against buying 6E since most of the announced changes are very much disliked by me.

 

See I can't understand that. I dislike a few of the announced changes, but at the same time I haven't seen them implemented or how they'll be done. If it is true that the alternate framework can be used to re connect figured characteristics and that can be done easily with the same results, effectively that change will have been negated for me. And I can always use Comeliness anyway, just because the book ignores it doesn't mean it can't be put in any games.

 

Its too soon to make any sort of declarations about the system or its changes. I'll be getting the book and then we'll see. Nothing about this smacks of the absurd deconstruction and MMOG-ification of D&D, for example.

[pinecone]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I think Steve Long has made a PR mistake by not including a wow factor in the sneak preview: something that makes people go oh cool' date='[/i'] now that's worth getting it for! What he's given us so far has been pretty much controversial or meaningless, which has resulted in controversy and people prematurely saying "this sucks I'm not buying it!!!"

 

I'm not saying I'd do any better, I'm terrible with marketing. I'm just pretty good with analysis.

 

Well...I suspect it was intended to be a bit of a "wow,cool!" thing....Wow cool! they nerfed killing and decoupled stats!, and for people who wanted that it sure seems like it was...

 

But for other people, well....they don't think thats cool...

[Edsel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

See I can't understand that. I dislike a few of the announced changes, but at the same time I haven't seen them implemented or how they'll be done. If it is true that the alternate framework can be used to re connect figured characteristics and that can be done easily with the same results, effectively that change will have been negated for me. And I can always use Comeliness anyway, just because the book ignores it doesn't mean it can't be put in any games.

 

Its too soon to make any sort of declarations about the system or its changes. I'll be getting the book and then we'll see. Nothing about this smacks of the absurd deconstruction and MMOG-ification of D&D, for example.

 

I said I will give it a try. I fully expect our group's other GM to buy the rules and run his games using it. I will learn the rules and play a character. If I end up liking the rules I will buy them and start using them.

 

However in my original post in this thread I stated what I thought about each change as it had been presented. I also tallied it up:

My Final Tally:

Favor = 2; Neutral = 8; Oppose = 7

One of my greatest joys when building a Hero system character is playing with the Primary Characteristics and watching how they affect the Figured Characteristics. I like Figured Characteristics, a lot. I think that they make for a much more logical and rational character as an end product. As I view DEX it ought to have a major effect on your combat values. In my opinion A character who has good STR, BODY and CON, ought to have good STUN, to me that just makes logical sense. Etc., etc.

 

I have literally hundreds of pages of data, all developed for 5ER, for the various campaign worlds I run. Since the new system, as presented, doesn't sound too appealing to me I sure don't want to devote years into updating all the stuff that I have now. At least not until I am sure I like the new system.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

150 points is an optional guideline for the maximum number of disads you can take. I have had several players opt to take less than this value. It has also been common in our group to allow a lesser amount for the high end. For instance instead of playing 200 + 150 disads, we would do something like 250+100 or even 275 + 75. The idea being that fewer well-played disads are better than a bunch that do not enter play as often. Of course our group is eight players so individual disads don't get tapped as often by the GM when having to run that big a circus.

 

Understood. The point of having the suggestion changed in the core rulebook is that you're not always the GM, and more often than not, if you game with a group online, the GM will simply use whatever the default value listed in the book is.

 

I probably won't run an ongoing game of 6th, but will likely set up a short online game to playtest the rules. If I do, I'll be using whatever the defaults are, since it will essentially be a play test campaign.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

See I can't understand that. I dislike a few of the announced changes, but at the same time I haven't seen them implemented or how they'll be done. If it is true that the alternate framework can be used to re connect figured characteristics and that can be done easily with the same results, effectively that change will have been negated for me. And I can always use Comeliness anyway, just because the book ignores it doesn't mean it can't be put in any games.

 

Its too soon to make any sort of declarations about the system or its changes. I'll be getting the book and then we'll see. Nothing about this smacks of the absurd deconstruction and MMOG-ification of D&D, for example.

 

This I also can't understand much. Secondary Characteristics are staying, they are just losing their links to the Primary Characteristics. Point values are being increased to make up for the loss of that linkage. So I see it as a basic net neutral.

 

The only "bad" part of the whole thing is that noobs will have to know what is a good minimum for both Rec, Stun and End. PD, ED and SPD are usually bought up anyways. As are all of the CV values.

 

So our Char lineup will be Str, Dex, Con, Body, Int, Ego, Pre. Then Secondaries as OCV, DCV, OECV, DECV, PD, ED, SPD, REC, END, STUN. They are all going to be there. Just no one but Steve and the Mysterioius Council currently knows how much everything is going to cost. It may be that cost changes (not announced yet AFAIK) in the Primaries will make up for the loss of Secondary Chars being Figured from the Primary Chars. We will have to wait for GenCon to know for sure.

 

I am ambivalent to this change, but my GF who is a Hero Neophyte thinks the change is positive and less messy than the old system.

 

Tasha