6E Rules changes confirmed so far

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

going to be hard to do with Steve getting rid of negative numbers

 

Is that confirmed? I suspect it's happening, since he said he would absent a good reason not to, and I don't recall a lot of arguments not to, but I don't recall anyonje mentioning confirmation (I don't follow the Chats myself).

[The Main Man]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Betcha they will be the textbook examples of Unified Power.

 

Have I mentioned how excited I am for SexEd?

 

Considering how I keep making such (mostly unconfirmed) guesses at the system before it is even released, I'm wondering if Darren Watts will show up with a luchador mask ready to shut me up en el estilo de los tecnicos!

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Is that confirmed? I suspect it's happening' date=' since he said he would absent a good reason not to, and I don't recall a lot of arguments not to, but I don't recall anyonje mentioning confirmation (I don't follow the Chats myself).[/quote']

 

There has been no confiirmation that Steve is getting rid of negative Chaaracteristics.

[Karmakaze]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I just had a thought about losing hexes. Are we now going to define what the DCV of an area is according to it's metric volume? Think of all the area of effect attacks that target a hex... Would a character still occupy a two meter area with an overall DCV of 2?

[The Main Man]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Huh, hadn't thought of that yet.

[Beast]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

so long as those rules stay the same it should defend at DCV 3

you would just define a point and anybody with in a meter of that point should be affected by the attack

 

 

I just had a thought about losing hexes. Are we now going to define what the DCV of an area is according to it's metric volume? Think of all the area of effect attacks that target a hex... Would a character still occupy a two meter area with an overall DCV of 2?

[The Main Man]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Actually, would the base AOE be 2m (as per 1") or be reduced to 1m?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Why would it be reduced? If I start measuring every where I drive in Kilometers instead of miles the distance doesn't actually get longer just because the numbers go up.

 

This kind of speculation is kind of silly. If AoE changed it will probably be for more reasons than the fact that measurement changed. Even if it did change with no reason other than to match the new measurement, I’m sure Steve is smart enough to realize that would affect its value.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Disadvantages are being renamed Complications, and Psychological Limitations will become Psychological Complications.

Why? The terms were perfectly understandable before. Making name changes in other areas would be good, but not this.

 

The words “advantage” and “disadvantage” are pretty dang close to direct antonyms linguistics-wise, while they have virtually no correlation in the games mechanics. Why wouldn’t getting rid of an obvious opportunity for misunderstanding, and in the process finding a term that better explains the intended us of one of the mechanics, be a good thing? What, in your opinion, are the other places that deserve attention in regards to renaming?

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

The words “advantage” and “disadvantage” are pretty dang close to direct antonyms linguistics-wise' date=' while they have virtually no correlation in the games mechanics. Why wouldn’t getting rid of an obvious opportunity for misunderstanding, and in the process finding a term that better explains the intended us of one of the mechanics, be a good thing? What, in your opinion, are the [i']other[/i] places that deserve attention in regards to renaming?

 

You would be correct. Steve also feels that Complications describes the role a llittle better.

[The Main Man]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Why would it be reduced? If I start measuring every where I drive in Kilometers instead of miles the distance doesn't actually get longer just because the numbers go up.

 

This kind of speculation is kind of silly. If AoE changed it will probably be for more reasons than the fact that measurement changed. Even if it did change with no reason other than to match the new measurement, I’m sure Steve is smart enough to realize that would affect its value.

Actually, now that I think of it, AoE: 1m could become a +1/4 Advantage.

 

Increased granularity indeed.

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Actually' date=' would the base AOE be 2m (as per 1") or be reduced to 1m?[/quote']

 

Based on comments made by Steve in the initial 6e, it would seem to be that one hex (or one game inch) will be replaced with 2m. After all, Steve says that movements would become 1 CP for 1m.

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Actually, now that I think of it, AoE: 1m could become a +1/4 Advantage.

 

Increased granularity indeed.

 

 

Actually, that would probably be AOE 1/2m -- AOEs are usually measured in radius. AOE: 1m would be the likely replacement for AOE: 1 hex.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I plan on using a triangular dot grid at 1/2" spacing. 1/2" = 1 meter.

[GamePhil]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Honestly, can't we all just get along and focus our ire on those who truly deserve it (who shall remain nameless, but who seem to believe they are the only people on the two continents whose name they have absconded with to self-reference)?

 

Hey, it was either that or Unitedstatesan, and that's just silly.

 

I had a character whose concept included the fact that he was Ambidextrous. I paid the 3 points for it (back in 4th Edition)' date=' even though I [i']knew[/i] the chances of it coming up in the game were slim and none. And Slim had left town. (BTW, I was right in that assessment; it never came up in the three years the game was played).

 

So when I saw that Ambidexterity had been pumped up to 9 points in 5th I groaned. Why? Just because it was "built" as CSLs and therefore had to match that cost structure? With all due respect, screw that noise.

 

For that matter, I, as a long-time player of Hero System, look at Perfect Pitch and see nothing wrong in asking "Why the heck does it cost 3 points?" Because it was built as a Skill Level (or whatever it's built as; I don't have the rulebook with me)? Please.

 

That is the trend I've been noticing. And it is the direction my playing style is definitely not going towards. So I find myself seeing the game I spent many years enjoying drifting away. And it makes me sad.

 

The two ideals are not mutually exclusive. If you try to build something and it comes out too expensive, it is often a sign that the build is the wrong one, the basic rule it is built from is in some way flawed and should be fixed, or it should be the corolary of the Disadvantage rule should be applied: An Ability that never comes up in play costs no (or reduced) points.

 

Perfect Pitch is a good example. Three points is too high because it's basically a Level? Then buy +1 PS: Singing. If you have 20 musical PSs, though, it might be worth the 3 points. If those 20 musical PSs will never have substantial impact, you shouldn't have to pay for it (some people will still want to, of course, and that's fine, too) or even those Skills.

 

Besides, there's no reason to be sad just because some people use the tools given in a differen way from yourself. You just use them the way you like to do so.

[ajackson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

The two ideals are not mutually exclusive. If you try to build something and it comes out too expensive' date=' it is often a sign that the build is the wrong one, the basic rule it is built from is in some way flawed and should be fixed[/quote']

In this case, the problem seems to be with penalty skill levels -- not all penalties are equally useful to eliminate. Range penalties (come up all the time) are hardly the equivalent of left-handed weapon use penalties (come up basically never).

[GamePhil]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

In this case' date=' the problem seems to be with penalty skill levels -- not all penalties are equally useful to eliminate. Range penalties (come up all the time) are hardly the equivalent of left-handed weapon use penalties (come up basically never).[/quote']

 

This is pretty much my take, I used the Perfect Pitch example mostly because it was easier than re-working PSL's to take this into account. Although I'm also fond of just having a Limitation for Does Not Come Up Much In This Campaign. Frankly, in many games even 3 pts is overpriced, bringing us back to simply saying it's a character concept and not worth any points at all, and for a few games it might even be worth the price in 5th.

 

As another example, for Eidetic Memory, I considered defining Memory as a Sense, with Eidetic Memory being Discriminatory for it. It made Flash Memory take on a whole new meaning, one which if I ever get back into running games I may very well use. It matches the cost I would have eyeballed it at, and brings us to the real reason I prefer to try to build everything, as long as it doesn't get in the way of having fun: sometimes new concepts come about in the attempt.

 

Not all of them are good new concepts, of course.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Character A has Breakfall at 12-.

Character B has a Familiarity with Breakfall, giving him an 8-.

Character C does not have Breakfall at all but has a DEX Rol of 11-.

 

I do not see how you can allow Character C to make a DEX Roll of greater than 7- to replace Breakfall; otherwise, you are completely undermining buying Familiariaties.

 

*shrug*

 

Never been a problem really.

 

Also - this is a Negative Modifier on top of any other situational modifiers, and you can't increase it by - for example - moving down the Time Chart, or anything else.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Skills will still be calculated from CHAR/5' date=' but there will be an optional "Toolkitting" note about changing that if desired. Other Toolkitting notes will appear throughout the rules -- no further details on those.[/b']

 

Uh. Okay? What else would you calculate it from? Or would you just have everyone start at an 8- and buy it up from there, regardless of what your stats are? I'm glad this is being left alone, because if skill values get unlinked from stats, HERO begins to tread eerily along the footsteps of Shadowrun, where Attributes mean exactly squat for you.

 

He's talking about instead of using 9+CHAR/5 using something like CHAR/3 or CHAR/6 or any other numbers (there are several outlined in The Ultimate Skill).

 

Steve wasn't talking about removing the Characteristic from the equation.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

The mechanic of negative characteristics is mere speculation. Even if you can't have negative characteristics anymore, it is likely that your BODY score will be allowed to go to negatives, if only so that the death mechanic doesn't radically change.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Actually, now that I think of it, AoE: 1m could become a +1/4 Advantage.

 

Increased granularity indeed.

 

I'm sure all the high DCV characters would be thrilled that avoiding their DCV only requires a +1/4 advantage now.

 

Actually, AoE is a pain from a number of angles, IMO. The ability to target a DCV 3 point in space, and avoid target DCV, is a benefit over and above hitting a large area. Often, you wish you had a smaller area to avoid hitting friendly targets, so to me a bigger area is not as valuable as avoiding a target's DCV.

 

Meanwhile, we have "non-selective" to put a to hit roll back for each target, and "Selective" to pick & choose which targets we make a to hit roll against. Where's the option that allows me to pick the targets in the area without adding back a to hit roll (shouldn't that just be an extra +1/4? adding a to hit roll in only reduces the value of AoE by 1/4 when I make it nonselective).

 

Then there's the problem that AoE is costed at a point that most attacks are useless, unless advantaged to avoid standard defenses.

 

It seems to me that avoiding DCV is at least as valuable as hitting multiple targets. Who cares if I have to roll to hit against all the VIPER agents?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

The mechanic of negative characteristics is mere speculation. Even if you can't have negative characteristics anymore' date=' it is likely that your BODY score will be allowed to go to negatives, if only so that the death mechanic doesn't radically change.[/quote']

 

Pretty much the whole thread is based on speculation, isn't it? We know those little tidbits that Steve was directly asked in chat and chose to answer, and even those have tons of speculation surrounding them. eg. "No more Figured" - So what are the prices and bases of the Figured? How has the costing of the Primaries changed with Secondaries no longer derived from them? How many more points do we give characters to offset the pricing changes?

 

Until 6e is released, read and played for some time, we won't really know what the changes are and how they impact the game.

 

But we like to speculate - a lot, based on the size of this thread alone! 1349 and rising

 

I wonder how big the "6e is released and now we know the actual changes" thread will be...

[BlackSword]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

There are just my initial thoughts, the actual implementation may be blow me away, but since everyone else is speculating these are my first impressions of the news.

• “Toolkitting” notes throughout the rule books will describe optional rules that can be use to customize the Hero System to fit the needs of players and GMs.
  I'm not as thrilled about this. While I appreciate the ability and advice to tinker, since there is already an announced "Advanced Guide" my initial thought is that that book is the place forthe toolkitting information and keep the main books more streamlined with 'one true way.'
  
• An updated selection of Powers, including some that are brand new, lets players build even more diverse characters.
  I was in the camp for going the other way, trying to minimize the powers to a few basic effects which are then customized with advantages.
  
• Adjustment Powers have been reworked to improve their flexibility and playability.
  Okay with that
  
• The STUN Multiplier for Killing Attacks has been modified to be a simple ½d6 to better position them as Attacks which deliver increased BODY but reduced STUN. In a related change, targets of a Killing Attack can apply their full PD or ED, as appropriate, against the STUN of that attack regardless of whether or not they have any resistant defenses.
  I'm okay with the changes to stun for killing attacks. I would have liked to see a full rework of killing attack, but at an initial glance the changes will help with the stun lotto issue.
  
• All movement and distance measurements are now in meters to improve mapless play while still allowing the use of maps and miniatures, if desired.
  good change
  
• A new Talent Striking Appearance will replace the Comeliness Characteristic. This new Talent, which can purchased multiple times to represent varying degrees of physical appearance, is designed to increase the game effects of such appearances.
  I am okay with this change.
  
• Four new Characteristics make it easier to create characters with differing offensive and defensive capabilities in both physical and mental combat and to create powers that can directly affect a character’s Combat Values.
  I am okay with these change as well, helps with granularity and increased ability to customize characters.
  
• Mandatory links between Characteristics have been eliminated. All Characteristics are now purchased independently and several Characteristics have been rebalanced and re-priced to reflect this change.
  Very happy about this. I do hope that repricing will bring all the primary characteristics to a single price.
  
• Leaping is now purchased independently from Strength.
  
• Some Skills have been modified.
  interested in seeing what the changes are, no opinion on the changes until I see them.
  
• Improved Advantage handling includes a new more granular approach that improves the flexibility of many Advantages.
  
• The Damage Shield Advantage has been modified.
  
• A new Limitation named Unified Power replaces Elemental Controls. Unlike Elemental Controls, there will be no restrictions on what it can be applied to.
  glad to see this change.
  
• New names for several game elements make their roles clearer. The Seduction Skill has been renamed Charm; Package Deals have been renamed Templates; and Disadvantages have been Complications. In a similar vein, Psychological, Physical, and Social Limitations have been renamed Psychological, Physical, and Social Complications.
  
• Increased reach for larger-than-normal beings and weapons has been simplified.
  
• The rules for adding damage from Strength and other sources have modified to make them easier to use during play.
  
• Suggested starting points for all genres and sub-genres have been increased to let players take full advantage of all Hero System 6th Edition features.
  
• Each of the two full color hardcover Hero System 6th Edition core rule books will feature a full index that covers the contents of both books.
  

In addition, Mr. Long also revealed that various popular elements of the 28 year old game system would be remaining:

• The basic 3d6-roll-for-success mechanic remains, and it will continue to be "roll-low."
  I am okay with staying with the roll under though I would have preferred a roll high system.
  
• The Speed Chart which regulates combat will remain unchanged and movement will continue to measured per phase.
  I would have liked a radical change to the initiative mechanism, but I am also okay with staying with the Speed Chart.
  
• Perception will continue to be INT-based.
  
• Skill rolls will continue be based on (Characateristic/5), but an optional “Toolkitting” note will describe alternate methods of calculating Skill rolls.
  
• Energy Blast and Killing Attack will still be separate forms of damage.
  
• Strength will continues to add to Hand-To-Hand Killing Attack damage.
  
• Mulipowers and Variable Power Pools remain as Power Frameworks.
  

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Actually, if people are going to reply with what they think of the revealed changes, it is probably best to reply to the original post rather than my press release-style post. The original post is more accurate and straightforward whereas my "press release" post was an attempt to put a marketing spin on the information.

[archermoo]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Now that I've had a chance to think about the changes...

 

The basic 3d6-roll-for-success mechanic remains, and it will continue to be "roll-low."

 

Yay!

 

No changes to the Speed Chart.

 

Yay!

 

Movement will continue to be measured per Phase.

 

Seems easier.

 

All measurements will be given in meters. There will be no use of "hexes" or any other mapping arrangement in 6E.

 

Yay!

 

Comeliness will no longer be one of the Characteristics. It's being replaced with a Talent, Striking Appearance, which a given group can choose to use in their game if they want a character's appearance to have a mechanical effect.

 

I liked having COM as a Characteristic, though realistically I don't see this as a particularly major change.

 

All the other Characteristics will remain, but none of them will be "Figured," i.e. derived from other Characteristics. They'll all start with a base value that must be bought up separately. The costs of some of them have been "tweaked" -- no further details yet.

YAYAYAYAYAYAY! This fixes the single largest thing that has bugged me about Champions/HERO since 1981.

 

OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics, not derived from DEX and EGO. They'll start with a base value of 3 and will be bought up separately.

I keep waffling on this one. On the one hand it is a clean implementation. It allows a type of flexibility that previously was difficult to get. On the other hand CV being based on DEX and ECV being based on EGO just makes sense to me. Though probably not for any more reason than I'm used to it.

 

Suggested starting point totals will be raised to compensate for the change to Characteristics -- no specifics yet.

 

Sound pretty much necessary.

 

Perception will still be based on INT.

 

Sounds reasonable.

 

Leaping will no longer be derived from Strength -- it will start at a base amount for all characters, as with Running and Swimming.

Again, sounds reasonable. In the real world at least it isn't the big burly power-lifters that can jump the farthest...

 

Skills will still be calculated from CHAR/5, but there will be an optional "Toolkitting" note about changing that if desired. Other Toolkitting notes will appear throughout the rules -- no further details on those.

 

I've house ruled some changes like this. Mostly when I'm running Dragaera Hero and using 3d10 instead of 3d6.

 

Seduction Skill will be renamed Charm.

 

A rose by any other name... Though seriously since the skill isn't just about getting in someone's pants anymore, good name change.

 

No new Skills will be added, although a couple have been "tweaked" (no more details yet).

 

Tweaky tweaky...

 

Package Deal will be renamed Template

 

Makes sense, since at least in 5e they stopped being deals and just became templates.

 

Some new Powers have been added, and others have been removed. The only one mentioned is Find Weakness, which is being removed. There will be no official way to reduce Defenses below 1/2 as with Armor Piercing.

 

I'll miss it.

 

Adjustment Powers have been significantly reworked -- no further details yet.

Prolly a good thing, though I'll need to see the changes.

 

Energy Blast and Killing Attack will still be separate forms of Damage, as they are in 5E.

 

YAY! This is one of those "defines Hero for me" kind of things.

 

The Stun Multiplier for Killing Attack will become a straight 1/2d6. It will still be possible to buy up the Stun Multiplier with Advantages.

 

Eh, I never really had a problem with KAs as they were. But then again I also have almost never used straight StunX rolls, but have generally used the Hit Location chart. No word that I'm aware of on whether that is being changed or not.

 

You will be able to apply your Normal Defenses to the STUN damage of a Killing Attack whether you have any Resistant Defenses or not.

 

Probably reasonable.

 

Nothing has changed about the way STR adds to Hand-To-Hand Killling Attack damage.

 

Again, probably reasonable.

 

Increased reach for larger-than-normal beings and weapons will not necessarily require Stretching -- no further details yet.

 

Cool.

 

The method of Adding Damage is supposed to be simplified -- no further details yet.

Assuming it really is more simple, another good thing.

 

The Multipower and VPP Frameworks will remain, but Elemental Control is being replaced by a new Limitation, Unified Power (no value given). Aside from GM oversight there will be no restrictions on what Unified Power can be applied to.

Tentatively optimistic, depending on the specifics of the Unified Power Limitation.

 

Damage Shield is going to be "different" -- no details yet.

I've almost never used it, and don't think I've ever used it in 5e.

 

There will be another, more granular way to make a Power ECV-targeted than using the BOECV Advantage. No specifics given, but it involves breaking the Advantage into its separate components (i.e. ECV Attack Roll, Line Of Sight, etc.) and "reassembling" them to make them more flexible (and simpler according to Steve). Steve implied that he's used this approach for other elements of the system.

I like flexibility.

 

Disadvantages are being renamed Complications, and Psychological Limitations will become Psychological Complications.

Not overly concerned with this one.

 

There will be a single index, printed in both 6E rulebooks, with a letter code before each number to indicate which book it refers to.

 

Single index is good.

 

I'm looking forward to APG being black and white with no art. I'm reserving my opinion on the core rules being in color. Not that I object to color per se, but I've never liked the feel of the paper generally used for color printing. We'll see if this ends up being an exception.

 

Of course I'm still holding out for Hero to publish a collector's edition of 6e bound in leather, printed on onion skin paper, and re-edited in Chapter/Verse format.