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6E Rules changes confirmed so far


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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Punching someone doesn't knock them out either' date=' unless you hit them in the head and give them a concussion. Stun damage is largely a genre convention.[/quote']

 

Well of course you need to give them concussion. I've seen several people kicked or punched to unconsciousness.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Punching someone doesn't knock them out either' date=' unless you hit them in the head and give them a concussion. Stun damage is largely a genre convention.[/quote']

 

But you can also hit them to certain parts of the body and cause them to drop immediately (i.e., a stunning effect).

 

Technically, in the real world, it would take a really long time to knock somebody out if you were just hitting them in the arms and legs, but they would be in a lot of pain pretty quickly. Once the pain became unbearable they might actually pass out.

 

Also in the real world, you have a much better chance of striking someone in the head than you do in Hero system. That's just the truth. Even a mediocre boxer will hit an opponent cleanly in the head 1 in 5 times, though the hit locations chart suggests the default chance is around 1 in 20 (actually, less than that, because the default chance to hit anything is about 60%.)

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Punching someone doesn't knock them out either' date=' unless you hit them in the head and give them a concussion. Stun damage is largely a genre convention.[/quote']

 

Stun measures whether you are conscious or un-conscious in Hero, and that is about it. I've hyphenated un-conscious because I wanted to distinguish it from 'being asleep' or somesuch: it is simply that you are not taking in what is going on around you, or able to react to it. You could still be 'awake', but in your own little world of pain that you can do nothing. A punch or a taser can render you un-conscious without necesasarily knocking you out. If you get tagged in the testes you're still moving, writhing around on the ground, but you are not interacting with the world in any meaningful way.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

The reality found in movies, action adventure novels, etc. Not the reality we live in. Such is the stated opinion of the guy actually writing the rules.

 

You're both right. Yes, the main thrust of the rules is to simulate "heroic" reality, but some small amount of time has been given over by Steve and others to model more "realistic" things and events. Were this not the case, the write-up for Skunk Musk would be a great deal less complex.

 

Nothing wrong with modeling a given take on "reality" in Hero just because that's not the main point of the system.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Stun measures whether you are conscious or un-conscious in Hero' date=' and that is about it. I've hyphenated un-conscious because I wanted to distinguish it from 'being asleep' or somesuch: it is simply that you are not taking in what is going on around you, or able to react to it. You could still be 'awake', but in your own little world of pain that you can do nothing. A punch or a taser can render you un-conscious without necesasarily knocking you out. If you get tagged in the testes you're still moving, writhing around on the ground, but you are not interacting with the world in any meaningful way.[/quote']

 

IIRC, your interpretation is unambiguously correct between 0 and -10 STUN, below that level you technically are "knocked out" and unable to perceive or process information in any way. At the "once a minute" or GM discretion level, it's sleepy time, though. ;)

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

the big question is

since all CV's are now characteristics

what will be the cost of all those CV's

what we have so far is CSL's

so if we go with persistent(which is not an allowed advantage as of now so I have to do it the old way)

 

1 all combat level cost 8 pts

+1/2 persistant

-1/2 only for 1 form of CV(offense,defense,ego offense,ego defense)

so each levels is going to cost 8 pts using what we have now to base what the future might have

 

a number between 8 and 5 pts is what I figure it will be

a pulp character to have an OCV,DCV of 6 is going to cost anywhere 48 to 30 points

I use a pulp character because those will want to not be hit as they will have no resistant def and stunning is a bigger possibility

 

points for the lower end genres types are really going to have to go up compared to superhero genre

 

 

 

As was pointed out repeatedly on the 6e forums, CSLs are Skills, not Characteristics.

 

In 5e and prior, you couldn't buy CV up directly as a Characteristic. It was not a Characteristic. If you look in the book under Characteristics, CV is not listed as an item.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Just a snarky aside on realism and superheroes:

Most superheroes (in comics and in game) will get knocked out at least 2-3 times a year (some will get knocked out more frequently than that). They will also be stunned at least once every third fight.

Concussions cause brain damage. Concussions that cause unconsciousness are the worst type.

In the real world, boxers and football players who get knocked out or concussed too often are forced to retire.

The real world career of a superhero (absent an ability to regenerate or otherwise heal brain damage) would be measured in months or years (lasting a decade would be an amazing accomplishment), and lots of retired superheroes would have pugilistic dementia. Some of the heroes who got deeply concussed might not ever wake up, and some of those previously concussed might succumb hours, days or weeks later.

 

So, if there's anywhere realism has no place, IMO, it's the superhero genre. :P

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

IIRC' date=' your interpretation is unambiguously correct between 0 and -10 STUN, below that level you technically are "knocked out" and unable to perceive or process information in any way. At the "once a minute" or GM discretion level, it's sleepy time, though. ;)[/quote']

 

Personal houserule: I handwave that as dramatic necessity dictates. IME, 9 out of 10 times there's very little game difference between laying on the ground unable to meaningfully interact with the world and out like a light*. It allows for some situation seen in fiction to be simulated in game.

 

 

*There can be a role playing difference, of course.

 

I think what some people are trying to illustrate is that one of the core combat mechanics in Hero System is in some ways deeply unrealistic. Being beaten unconsicious in the real world is a really bad event that can have lasting repercussions even weeks later while in Hero games its almost a daily thing for some character who bounce back from it in moments, ready to take another beating fresh except for cosmetic damage.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

You're both right. Yes, the main thrust of the rules is to simulate "heroic" reality, but some small amount of time has been given over by Steve and others to model more "realistic" things and events. Were this not the case, the write-up for Skunk Musk would be a great deal less complex.

 

Nothing wrong with modeling a given take on "reality" in Hero just because that's not the main point of the system.

 

Not at all. Just don't get any of that "reality" on my perfectly fine "fantasy." :winkgrin:

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

It's not the voltage that gets you. It's the amps.

 

:)

 

I ran across a cool little chart from OSHA courtesy of my mom once.

 

It went through the various combinations of Volts and Amps versus Time required to kill - as found in common workplace equipment.

 

Lightbulbs were a lot more lethal than I would have given them credit for. Assuming you hang into the fillament for a short period.

 

But it did cover the idea that some electricity will lock your muscles, killing you by preventing you from letting go. Some will toss you clear, causing a lot of burning. And some will induce cardiac arrest. It was cool.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Or the Pulps. Or modern action. Or Fantasy. Or Sci Fi. How often does our Tough Guy Detective / Super Spy / Heroic Barbarian / Square Jawed Captain get knocked over the head, knocked out and taken to the villains lair or a jail cell? Every other episode? Every third?

 

The realistic effects of injury leave only a very tiny percentage of people able to stay active for long in professions where daily violence and injury are part of the job. There are some who (amazingly) manage it, but they are the rare exceptions, and not the ones who spend much of their time dealing with serious head injuries.

 

Just a snarky aside on realism and superheroes:

Most superheroes (in comics and in game) will get knocked out at least 2-3 times a year (some will get knocked out more frequently than that). They will also be stunned at least once every third fight.

Concussions cause brain damage. Concussions that cause unconsciousness are the worst type.

In the real world, boxers and football players who get knocked out or concussed too often are forced to retire.

The real world career of a superhero (absent an ability to regenerate or otherwise heal brain damage) would be measured in months or years (lasting a decade would be an amazing accomplishment), and lots of retired superheroes would have pugilistic dementia. Some of the heroes who got deeply concussed might not ever wake up, and some of those previously concussed might succumb hours, days or weeks later.

 

So, if there's anywhere realism has no place, IMO, it's the superhero genre. :P

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

So' date=' if there's anywhere realism has no place, IMO, it's the superhero genre. :P[/quote']

As far as stun goes, just about all serial dramatic fiction involves people getting knocked out and otherwise injured and recovering basically 100%, again and again. Look at how often Tintin has been knocked out.

 

In reality, it's grossly difficult to reliably incapacitate people in a nonlethal manner; tazers are one of the best.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

the big question is

since all CV's are now characteristics

what will be the cost of all those CV's

what we have so far is CSL's

so if we go with persistent(which is not an allowed advantage as of now so I have to do it the old way)

 

1 all combat level cost 8 pts

+1/2 persistant

-1/2 only for 1 form of CV(offense,defense,ego offense,ego defense)

so each levels is going to cost 8 pts using what we have now to base what the future might have

 

a number between 8 and 5 pts is what I figure it will be

a pulp character to have an OCV,DCV of 6 is going to cost anywhere 48 to 30 points

I use a pulp character because those will want to not be hit as they will have no resistant def and stunning is a bigger possibility

 

points for the lower end genres types are really going to have to go up compared to superhero genre

 

1) DCV Combat Skill Levels are 5 Points.

2) You forgot that normal CVs cannot do Damage, which CSLs can do.

3) Your point cost does not account for a Base OCV or Base DCV. I'm assuming people will have some.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

is it really going to make a big difference buying CSL's vs CV's

 

if you are surprised you get no use of your CSL's vs only your CV/2

also the only reason to buy up your combat CV would be if your character does a lot of blocking but even then you are at 1/2 CV and no levels

 

so I'm seeing you might just think "if I get surprised I'm going to get hit anyway might as well save the points for something else(like some more def) and just get CSL's"

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

1)are based on an 8pt all combat with the 1/2 limitation of only for defence

what is in there now is just the short hand of it(makes you question why take out other things that where also a short hand though better done)

with only hand to hand or just range is a -1

 

2)since with the new rules we are getting 4 new characteristics(all the CV's)everybody starts out the same so in effect you can zero them out

 

3)ones bought for DCV only cannot do damage as they are only for not getting hit

 

I was trying to model what the new CV characteristics would look like(cost) vs just adding CSL's with what we have now

 

 

1) DCV Combat Skill Levels are 5 Points.

2) You forgot that normal CVs cannot do Damage, which CSLs can do.

3) Your point cost does not account for a Base OCV or Base DCV. I'm assuming people will have some.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

5 points per level of CV seems reasonable to me. It also comports nicely with +1 DC per 5 points. 9 cp worth of DEX (3 points of DEX) gave +1 OCV and +1 DCV. I suppose you could make each point of ocv and dcv cost, say, 3 points apiece, but then you have to rework the costing of combat skill levels.

 

Otherwise, people will rarely buy them.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

now that others have said that CSL's are not persistent

we have a rule for persistent

I simply applied it

 

the 4 and 5 pt DCV skill levels are just short hand of what came before

just like HA in 4th ed

the math was already done

how it got viewed by those would say "I'm under the X AP cap"but not listing the damage classes cap

 

my figuring is that unless Steve wants to completly redo the skill levels section he is going to have to make the new CV characteristics fall somewhere near the current cost for levels and then

 

 

mostly' date=' I was pointing out your math was based on faulty logic.[/quote']
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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

1)are based on an 8pt all combat with the 1/2 limitation of only for defence

what is in there now is just the short hand of it(makes you question why take out other things that where also a short hand though better done)

with only hand to hand or just range is a -1

 

2)since with the new rules we are getting 4 new characteristics(all the CV's)everybody starts out the same so in effect you can zero them out

 

3)ones bought for DCV only cannot do damage as they are only for not getting hit

 

I was trying to model what the new CV characteristics would look like(cost) vs just adding CSL's with what we have now

 

Your lack of punctuation is annoying BTW.

 

Alright, let's start with an 8 Point Combat Skill Level.

It provides:

+1 OCV or +1 DCV or 1/2 Damage Class or OECV or DECV.

It doesn't really provide 1/2 a Damage Class - but we need to model that you can add 2 CSLs to get +1 DC and give it a value.

 

8 pt CSL; Persistent = 12 Active Points.

 

Now, what's the value of;

Does Not Provide DCV (or OCV)

Does Not Provide OECV

Does Not Provide DECV

Does Not Provide Damage

 

Even if you pop each of them at a -1/4 each (the minimum) that's a total of -1. For a cost of 6 Points Each.

 

Or do you really think only choosing one of 4 Possible CVs is worth a -1/2? I certainly don't.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

and 5 pt per CV char would seem reasonable to me also

but there is that little sticky point of 5 point levels are not persistent

but then if you are surprised your CV is 1/2 anyway so if your foe could hit you on a 11- w/o skill levels in defense going to 1/2 CV could raise it anywhere from 12- on up

 

so if you want that DCV to be high during suprise you will most likely have to buy more expensive(8pt)DCV IMHO if I'm correct in it's cost

 

on the other hand OCV I would just buy 5 pt levels(they do not need to be persistent) but then you would also have to limit them to adding no damage so the cost would come down to say 4 pt levels(that was just an eyeball by me so take it with a big grain of salt)

 

 

 

 

5 points per level of CV seems reasonable to me. It also comports nicely with +1 DC per 5 points. 9 cp worth of DEX (3 points of DEX) gave +1 OCV and +1 DCV. I suppose you could make each point of ocv and dcv cost, say, 3 points apiece, but then you have to rework the costing of combat skill levels.

 

Otherwise, people will rarely buy them.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Your lack of punctuation is annoying BTW.

 

Alright, let's start with an 8 Point Combat Skill Level.

It provides:

+1 OCV or +1 DCV or 1/2 Damage Class or OECV or DECV.

It doesn't really provide 1/2 a Damage Class - but we need to model that you can add 2 CSLs to get +1 DC and give it a value.

 

8 pt CSL; Persistent = 12 Active Points.

 

Now, what's the value of;

Does Not Provide DCV (or OCV)

Does Not Provide OECV

Does Not Provide DECV

Does Not Provide Damage

 

Even if you pop each of them at a -1/4 each (the minimum) that's a total of -1. For a cost of 6 Points Each.

 

Or do you really think only choosing one of 4 Possible CVs is worth a -1/2? I certainly don't.

 

I'd peg it at -1/2 for the first(it's generally the most useful application), then -1/4 for each of the others.

 

-1 1/4 total

(12 x 4)/9 = 5.33 points, rounds down to 5. So, 5 points per level of OCV and DCV. Dunno about OECV and DECV...

+1 level with mental powers is probably a 5 point level, take it persistent, that's 7.5 points. Apply -3/4 in lims .

 

(7.5 x 4)/7 = 4.28 points, rounds down to 4. 4 points per level of OECV and DECV.

 

I suspect Steve's costing will be completely different from this. ;)

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

the big question is

since all CV's are now characteristics

what will be the cost of all those CV's

what we have so far is CSL's

so if we go with persistent(which is not an allowed advantage as of now so I have to do it the old way)

 

1 all combat level cost 8 pts

+1/2 persistant

-1/2 only for 1 form of CV(offense,defense,ego offense,ego defense)

so each levels is going to cost 8 pts using what we have now to base what the future might have

 

a number between 8 and 5 pts is what I figure it will be

a pulp character to have an OCV,DCV of 6 is going to cost anywhere 48 to 30 points

I use a pulp character because those will want to not be hit as they will have no resistant def and stunning is a bigger possibility

 

points for the lower end genres types are really going to have to go up compared to superhero genre

 

That is an interesting point. +1 OCV and +1 DCV can be bought for 6 points at present: +3 DEX No figured characteristics - actually that also gives you additional bonuses, but I would presume that the maximum price per point of OCV or DCV would heve to be 3.

 

In fact it should be less than 3: +3 DEX adds 3 to your 'initiative' and 1 to your DEX roll as well. So as the only options are 2 and 1, and I think that pitching +1 OCV or DCV at 1 point would be ridiculous, then I'd say we are looking at a cost per point of 2 or 3.

 

Now that is interesting because unless there is a substantial overhaul of what you can use combat levels for to make them MUCH more useful, that pricing level completely undermines the current skill level costs, EVEN if you assume that to measure accurately you have to double characteristic costs, assuming that the game is pitched to make skill levels more useful in a game involving NCM (which may or may not be a valid assumption)

 

Of course I might be completely wrong as to the costing and it might be 4 points per +1 OCV or DCV (It can not be 5 because a skill level with +1 OCV or DCV costs 5 and that definitely is more useful than just the CV modifier as you can use it to, for instance, add damage).

 

So 2 to 4 points per point is my guess.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

CV is not currently persistent - you can not use your DEX while unconscious, so you do not use your DCV while unconscious either.

 

As I mentioned about 20 pages ago one of the advantages of separate CV as a characteristic would be that you COULD make it persistent to model something that made you hard to hit even when you were not moving, like partial phasing or somesuch.

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