6E Rules changes confirmed so far

[Beast]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

we know that only for DCV is a 1/2 limitation already ,and since you cannot do damage with a defensive maneuver(unless it is a damage shield)it is a given

 

all the others have already been covered by the 1 limitation

do the math on an 8 pt level all combat vs a DCV only level it comes out to being a 1/2 limitation

the only thing that was added was Persistent

so doing the math the way Hero has us doing it,has it coming out costing 8 pts

 

now if you feel that this is overpriced I agree with you there

But I'm only using what is already in the rules

 

 

 

 

Your lack of punctuation is annoying BTW.

 

Alright, let's start with an 8 Point Combat Skill Level.

It provides:

+1 OCV or +1 DCV or 1/2 Damage Class or OECV or DECV.

It doesn't really provide 1/2 a Damage Class - but we need to model that you can add 2 CSLs to get +1 DC and give it a value.

 

8 pt CSL; Persistent = 12 Active Points.

 

Now, what's the value of;

Does Not Provide DCV (or OCV)

Does Not Provide OECV

Does Not Provide DECV

Does Not Provide Damage

 

Even if you pop each of them at a -1/4 each (the minimum) that's a total of -1. For a cost of 6 Points Each.

 

Or do you really think only choosing one of 4 Possible CVs is worth a -1/2? I certainly don't.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

................

 

I think what some people are trying to illustrate is that one of the core combat mechanics in Hero System is in some ways deeply unrealistic. Being beaten unconsicious in the real world is a really bad event that can have lasting repercussions even weeks later while in Hero games its almost a daily thing for some character who bounce back from it in moments, ready to take another beating fresh except for cosmetic damage.

 

 

In some ways I think it is a shame that some form of Long Term Stun (Bruising?) isn't going to be (as far as we know so far) included in 6e, at least as an optional rule.

 

It is an easy enough mechanic: say every 5-10 points (it is tuneable to how much LTS you want inflicted) through defences = 1 LTS, which heals at REC per week, or even REC per day. You could even have impairment or somesuch running off LTS damage*, and you could rule that once all your stun is covnerted to LTS and additional LTS counts as Body damage.

 

That would mean that virtually every fight the heroes walk away from WILL weaken them in that they will net be able to get back to maximum stun just with REC.

 

 

 

*Say every 5 LTS = -2 COM, -1" running, -2 STR, -1 CON, -1 EGO, -1 DEX (roll 1d6 and apply result)

[ajackson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

There was discussion of the cost of levels on the 6e boards, but no idea if Steve Long used any of them. I argued for 5 point CSLs dropping to 4 and 8 point CSLs dropping to 5.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Beast,

Your assessment if values and Limitations is incorrect for every game I have ever played in.

Anyways, I'm in no mood to argue over it.

[Beast]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

by the current rules your DCV is 1/2 vs surprise,being flashed,etc

while surprise maneuvers might give a plus to OCV

 

I cannot see you having full DCV all the time

being partly phased or just twitchy could also be modeled by Damage Reduction

to get full DCV all the time in IMHO, would need something like Danger Sense (no conscience control the character at the right time has a twitch or sneezes,turns because they thought they heard their name called,etc...)

or 2 levels of luck(3 means they missed outright)

 

CV is not currently persistent - you can not use your DEX while unconscious, so you do not use your DCV while unconscious either.

 

As I mentioned about 20 pages ago one of the advantages of separate CV as a characteristic would be that you COULD make it persistent to model something that made you hard to hit even when you were not moving, like partial phasing or somesuch.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

we know that only for DCV is a 1/2 limitation already ,and since you cannot do damage with a defensive maneuver(unless it is a damage shield)it is a given

 

all the others have already been covered by the 1 limitation

do the math on an 8 pt level all combat vs a DCV only level it comes out to being a 1/2 limitation

the only thing that was added was Persistent

so doing the math the way Hero has us doing it,has it coming out costing 8 pts

 

now if you feel that this is overpriced I agree with you there

But I'm only using what is already in the rules

 

 

You can do, say, a normal punch (+0 ocv +0 dcv) and use your DCV levels to add damage rather than DCV.

 

8 point levels are overpriced given the existence of cheap DEX, the question is does the price of creating DEX as we currently know it go up, of do skill level costs go down?

 

Practically there is limited scope for adjusting skill level costs while retaining distinctiveness, so presumably the cost of DEX will go up, so based on what I posted before I'd guess +1 OCV OR +1 DCV will cost 4 points.

 

Can someon explain to me why we are worried about 'persistent'?

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

OCV and DCV from Dex persist out of combat and during surprise.

 

OCV and DCV from CSLs do not apply to either.

 

It needs to be modeled in some how.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

OCV and DCV from Dex persist out of combat and during surprise.

 

OCV and DCV from CSLs do not apply to either.

 

It needs to be modeled in some how.

 

 

OCV and DCV are constant, not persistent - persistent keeps them working while you are unconscious.

 

There's another thing that I hope is made clear - the relationship between instant/constant(continuous)/persistent/uncontrolled

[Beast]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

you could use a leaky damage house rule I've seen used

if you daze an opponent he takes 1 body damage this could model that

if the attack did body it does not do 1 extra(you already did body)

this is where you can get the battered boxer syndrome

 

 

 

 

 

In some ways I think it is a shame that some form of Long Term Stun (Bruising?) isn't going to be (as far as we know so far) included in 6e, at least as an optional rule.

 

It is an easy enough mechanic: say every 5-10 points (it is tuneable to how much LTS you want inflicted) through defences = 1 LTS, which heals at REC per week, or even REC per day. You could even have impairment or somesuch running off LTS damage*, and you could rule that once all your stun is covnerted to LTS and additional LTS counts as Body damage.

 

That would mean that virtually every fight the heroes walk away from WILL weaken them in that they will net be able to get back to maximum stun just with REC.

 

 

 

*Say every 5 LTS = -2 COM, -1" running, -2 STR, -1 CON, -1 EGO, -1 DEX (roll 1d6 and apply result)

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

OCV and DCV are constant, not persistent - persistent keeps them working while you are unconscious.

 

There's another thing that I hope is made clear - the relationship between instant/constant(continuous)/persistent/uncontrolled

 

Yeah, but Persistent is cheaper. . . .

 

Not gonna argue the values - don't care that much - but if I'm gonna get my CV from "only works during combat" to "works out of combat" I'm going with the cheaper value in this case.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Also the reason levels do not work out of combat is that they only work in conjunction with a maneouvre - they are constant but you turn them off when not using them.

 

In combat if you are surprised it is different. If you are, for instance, dodging in combat and surprised, DCV for something that surprises you but if you are already dodging, the levels should count.

[Beast]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Yep your right

 

I'm gathering it was used instead of continuous w/ uncontrolled

now we are talking way overpriced

 

 

OCV and DCV are constant, not persistent - persistent keeps them working while you are unconscious.

 

There's another thing that I hope is made clear - the relationship between instant/constant(continuous)/persistent/uncontrolled

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

If you're Surprised or Out Of Combat - your DCV is halved. Levels aren't added and halved, they're just not used. Base DCV is Halved.

 

Which means that Dex provided CV Levels have some kind of persitence outside of combat that Combat Skill Level CVs do not have. Must be modeled if you're going to try and base a CV Characteristic off of CSLs for costing guesses.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

you could use a leaky damage house rule I've seen used

if you daze an opponent he takes 1 body damage this could model that

if the attack did body it does not do 1 extra(you already did body)

this is where you can get the battered boxer syndrome

 

 

One advantage of Long Term Stun (which I'm going to be calling Bruising) is that you usually have more STUN than Body, making the damage more granular, but the system you suggest has a realistic feel to it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

If you're Surprised or Out Of Combat - your DCV is halved. Levels aren't added and halved, they're just not used. Base DCV is Halved.

 

Which means that Dex provided CV Levels have some kind of persitence outside of combat that Combat Skill Level CVs do not have. Must be modeled if you're going to try and base a CV Characteristic off of CSLs for costing guesses.

 

 

That may be true, but if so the rule is ridiculous. If you are performing a dodge and you are very skilled, then you move more erratically than someone who is not as skilled whether or not someone does something that you were not expecting.

 

A dodge can be completely independent of the attack - it does not need to be a response. In fact - and I've only got FRED with me at the moment so that may explain it - I can't find that rule at all - do you know where it is (5ER ref will be fine - I'll look it up when I get home).

 

Outside combat it is not a problem - you have voluntarily turned your CSLs off when you decide NOT to do a combat maneouvre - they can not be used on their own.

[Beast]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

don't forget that with each body you take you also lose 1 stun that does not recover till the body does

you might want to lessen the time it takes to recover that kind of body

 

Also the optional rules have disabling

so if a character gets dazed and takes body to get to 1/2 you could impose a head disabling effect

this way you can get effects that lower Int(I'm guessing a level or 2 of striking appearance(Com my preference)and others

 

 

One advantage of Long Term Stun (which I'm going to be calling Bruising) is that you usually have more STUN than Body' date=' making the damage more granular, but the system you suggest has a realistic feel to it. [/quote']

[archermoo]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

OCV and DCV are constant, not persistent - persistent keeps them working while you are unconscious.

 

There's another thing that I hope is made clear - the relationship between instant/constant(continuous)/persistent/uncontrolled

 

All Constant means is that you don't have to activate it every Phase you want to use it. A Constant Power stops working if you get Stunned. On the other hand a Persistent Power doesn't. CSLs are more like Instants that last for your entire Phase. You have to actively allocate them every Phase or you aren't using them. If you get Stunned, they stop working right away. Your base DCV on the other hand doesn't. But it doesn't keep working at full power either. So I suppose it is really halfway between Constant and Persistent.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

That may be true, but if so the rule is ridiculous. If you are performing a dodge and you are very skilled, then you move more erratically than someone who is not as skilled whether or not someone does something that you were not expecting.

 

A dodge can be completely independent of the attack - it does not need to be a response. In fact - and I've only got FRED with me at the moment so that may explain it - I can't find that rule at all - do you know where it is (5ER ref will be fine - I'll look it up when I get home).

 

Outside combat it is not a problem - you have voluntarily turned your CSLs off when you decide NOT to do a combat maneouvre - they can not be used on their own.

 

You don't need to perform a Maneuver for CSLs to apply.

 

I have +5 Hand To Hand CSLs.

 

I make a Full Move to my opponent and say "My CSLs are in DCV"

 

I have performed no Maneuvers, I am in combat. My CSLs apply.

(I may be avoiding attacks, but I have performed no Combat or Martial Maneuvers)

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

You don't need to perform a Maneuver for CSLs to apply.

 

I have +5 Hand To Hand CSLs.

 

I make a Full Move to my opponent and say "My CSLs are in DCV"

 

I have performed no Maneuvers, I am in combat. My CSLs apply.

(I may be avoiding attacks, but I have performed no Combat or Martial Maneuvers)

 

 

Really? Well, you learn something every day.

 

So if I have 4x8 point CSLs I can assign them as DCV, half move, then assign them as OCV and attack?

 

Even then though, I'm not sure you could legitimately assign CSLs to 'mooching around'. If you do not consider yourself in combat then you are. by definition, not using combat skill levels.

 

Having said that if you can assign them to any activity (or inactivity) why shouldn't they help out of combat?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

and 5 pt per CV char would seem reasonable to me also

but there is that little sticky point of 5 point levels are not persistent

but then if you are surprised your CV is 1/2 anyway so if your foe could hit you on a 11- w/o skill levels in defense going to 1/2 CV could raise it anywhere from 12- on up

 

so if you want that DCV to be high during suprise you will most likely have to buy more expensive(8pt)DCV IMHO if I'm correct in it's cost

 

on the other hand OCV I would just buy 5 pt levels(they do not need to be persistent) but then you would also have to limit them to adding no damage so the cost would come down to say 4 pt levels(that was just an eyeball by me so take it with a big grain of salt)

 

Maybe the better answer is to rebuild combat skill levels from the cost of OCV and DCV. Assuming +1 OCV and +1 DCV each cost 5 points, for the sake of illustration (and to match the current 1 DCV level = 5 points, the closest we have to buying DCV now), then I could buy a Multipower with a 5 point pool, slots being +1 OCV and +1 DCV for 7 points. Tack on +1 OECV and +1 DECV - 9 points. Assume DC's are another slot - 10 points for a level in "all combat". Maybe the current 8 points is a bargain (but not compared to the current cost of DEX - buying skill levels instead of DEX is not cost efficient until you hit the NCM cap, if it is then).

 

DC's are the tough part of skill levels - what's the cost of +1 DC (with 2 levels) at 0 END on any attack your levels can apply to?

 

That is an interesting point. +1 OCV and +1 DCV can be bought for 6 points at present: +3 DEX No figured characteristics - actually that also gives you additional bonuses, but I would presume that the maximum price per point of OCV or DCV would heve to be 3.

 

In fact it should be less than 3: +3 DEX adds 3 to your 'initiative' and 1 to your DEX roll as well. So as the only options are 2 and 1, and I think that pitching +1 OCV or DCV at 1 point would be ridiculous, then I'd say we are looking at a cost per point of 2 or 3.

 

There's two ways of looking at this. One is that the price of +5 OCV, +5 DCV, +15 lighting Reflexes and +3 DEX skills should total 30 points (+15 DEX = 45 - 15 points for Speed = 30). The other is that DEX to date is a huge bargain, and the price of the component parts should be closer to what they are now, with the price of buying all the components higher than in the past.

 

Actually, DEX and CON are more universal than STR, and many archetypes trade off DEX with STR and, to a lesser extent, CON. A significant jump across the board to get all the components of DEX, coupled with an enhance cost of all components of CON and all components of STR, might result in the need for an approximately equal increase to starting points across all archetypes to end up back where we were.

 

For myself, I'd be OK with a drop in the average CV. Whether you have 10 OCV and your opponent has 10 DCV, or both CV's are 5, your chance to hit is unchanged. At the lower end, though, mooks actually have a chance to hit without also moving up to remarkable levels of DEX/CV.

 

Yet another example of being unable to properly evaluate the component parts without seeing the whole and how it fits together.

[Alibear]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

No, not in one phase.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Really? Well, you learn something every day.

 

So if I have 4x8 point CSLs I can assign them as DCV, half move, then assign them as OCV and attack?

 

Even then though, I'm not sure you could legitimately assign CSLs to 'mooching around'. If you do not consider yourself in combat then you are. by definition, not using combat skill levels.

 

Having said that if you can assign them to any activity (or inactivity) why shouldn't they help out of combat?

 

As Alibear said - you cannot assign CSLs more than once a phase.

[pinecone]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I disagree. My group of 12 Champions characters has 1' date='800 points in Disads for my to choose from. My adventures write themselves, really.[/quote']

 

A "trick" I've often used myself...

[NestorDRod]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

OK, I'm confused.

 

What exactly are you guys trying to do? 'Cause you lost me about half a page ago.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

decipher a complete book with a few letters on hand....