6E Rules changes confirmed so far

[pinecone]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I skipped TONS of pages and the conversation has obviously moved on, but I wanted to comment on something:

 

There were complaints about disengaging CV from DEX. Comments were made that DEX made you a better fighter, so should be coupled. I heartily disagree with this assessment. You put Dominic Dawes and George Foreman in a ring and see who wins that fight.

 

I've always hated that a high DEX makes you better at EVERYTHING you do, when it really shouldn't. I've used this example in the past, but it seems relevant here:

 

In High School I was a VERY good basketball player. I used to practice for HOURS a day every day. Later in life, I grew old, I didn't have hours a day to practice, and train, so obviously I lost a lot of my physical abilities.

 

I have two tremendous athletes as friends, one has more martial arts black belts in his closet than my wife has shoes. He could rip my eyes out and dance on my brain before I even knew I was in a fight. The other was an Olympic Swimmer. Both prime, and at least one, a world class athlete. In a game of 2 on 1, them vs me, we could play basketball to 10 I'd spot them 5 points, and they NEVER beat me. Now granted the Martial Artist is only around 5' 7" and the swimmer is 5' 10" to my 6' 1", but they were both stronger, faster, and had tons more endurance than me.

 

Not sure what all that means, but it seemed like a pretty good argument for decoupling DEX and CV when I thought about it in my head.

 

Or maybe you used your levels w/Basketball? Plus a PS: Baller, when they only have Fam> B-ball?

 

Nice story though...

[archermoo]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Er' date=' yes...then they remain allocated unless you change them, once allocated you don't need to allocate again each phase you remain in combat.[/quote']

 

Yup, depending on how things are being run. I've played in games that required the reallocation of CSLs every Phase, and I've played in games that assumed CSL allocation didn't change unless specifically stated. But until you've allocated your levels you don't get to use them. And the text of the CSL rules specifically states that levels for DCV are not Persistent, and cannot be made so except by buying Defense Maneuver. So being Stunned drops your CSLs. Being Stunned doesn't change your base CV, unless that is something that Steve is changing in 6e. It changes your effective CV, since being Stunned puts you at 1/2 DCV, but it also drops all of your CSLs.

 

So base DCV of 3 with 8 DCV skill levels normally in combat has an 11 DCV. When Stunned has a DCV of 2 (3/2).

Base DCV of 11 with no DCV skill levels normally in combat has an 11 DCV. When Stunned has a DCV of 6 (11/2).

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Or maybe you used your levels w/Basketball? Plus a PS: Baller, when they only have Fam> B-ball?

 

Nice story though...

 

PS: Basketball Player sounds to me like what a professional athlete would take and covers all the aspects of being in the NBA, from practice etiquette to knowledge of training regimens to some aspects of dealing with the media after a game. I'm not convinced that there's a good way to actually play basketball within the Hero System, but PS: Pro Basketball Player would be an interesting background skill for certain campaigns or character concepts.

 

By the way, what about PS: Student?

[pinecone]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I would have liked to see Figured Characteristics remain coupled, including CV, but also add the option to buy CV independently. That approach, to me, would have mandated repricing Primary characteristics and their derived abilities to reduce or eliminate the discount provided by the primary characteristic.

 

Adding a beneficial ability should never reduce the point cost of the character. A character with a high OCV and high DCV is, under 5e rules, more expensive than a character with a high OCV and DCV, plus good DEX rolls and faster initiative order. As a result, characters with high OCV and DCV are encouraged to also be good at anything requiring DEX (for example, ballet dancing).

 

While removal of coupling is not my first choice, this approach should also ensure that characters must pay for benefits. There will now be a point to building a character with high OCV and DCV, but not high DEX skills or initiative order. Hopefully, this will extend to all characteristics (eg. the cost of a level with INT or Interaction skills will be less than the cost of +5 INT or +5 PRE).

 

IOW, the fact that Fonzie is a competent street fighter should not require him to be a champion surfer and water skier. The system should discourage, not encourage, that result.

 

But the Fonze Was good at everything! He even jumped a Shark...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

If BODY becomes 1 pt, then Stun could easily be justified as costing 1/2 pt (1/2 the cost of BODY as before).

 

Similarly, if END costed 1/4 of what CON costed, then pricing it at 1/4-pt could make sense (again, this all assumes that CON/BODY have been repriced at 1pt).

 

Lastly, REC could simply be halved to 1pt.

 

Oh God, that's all we need. Fractional costs.

 

That was the one thing I felt was positive about getting rid of COM as a Characteristic.

 

You don't pay 1/4 point for END. You get 4 points of END when you spend 1 point. No fractions (until you read about power modifiers ).

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Yup, depending on how things are being run. I've played in games that required the reallocation of CSLs every Phase, and I've played in games that assumed CSL allocation didn't change unless specifically stated. But until you've allocated your levels you don't get to use them. And the text of the CSL rules specifically states that levels for DCV are not Persistent, and cannot be made so except by buying Defense Maneuver. So being Stunned drops your CSLs. Being Stunned doesn't change your base CV, unless that is something that Steve is changing in 6e. It changes your effective CV, since being Stunned puts you at 1/2 DCV, but it also drops all of your CSLs.

 

So base DCV of 3 with 8 DCV skill levels normally in combat has an 11 DCV. When Stunned has a DCV of 2 (3/2).

Base DCV of 11 with no DCV skill levels normally in combat has an 11 DCV. When Stunned has a DCV of 6 (11/2).

 

That was much the point I was making: levels are constant, so long as you are in combat. That means, of course, they turn off at the end of any segment in which you are stunned and remain as set until you change them.

 

I'm not sure Defence Maneuvre makes levels persistent - despite it saying that in the book (5ER 57). There has been dreadful systemic confusion over what 'persistent' means, but I'm pretty sure that defence maneouvre doesn't make you harder to hit while you are unconscious, which would be the effect of making DCV combat skill levels persistent.

 

Actually it is daft to restrict DCV CSLs from being bought with 'Peristent' (5ER 53) because it prevents really useful builds - for example someone who is protected by a field of energy that deflects attacks even when they are out cold. Restricting it to 'Defence Maneouvre', which is defined as a combat skill for someone expert at moving in combat, makes it all or nothing, doesn't properly reflect utility in cost and make no contextual sense.

 

Let's hope that gets fixed in 6e - presumably it will with seperate purchaseable OCV/DCV.

 

While I'm in this area, I never understood why being stunned did not affect base DCV: the definition of being stunning says you can take no actions and can not move - a stationary target should have a fixed DCV based on size: it should be 5 (working on a hex being DCV 3 and a human being about half a hex) or 2 if you are adjacent to the character (working on the same logic).

 

I hope that '1/2 DCV' disappears entirely from 6e to be replaced by either fixed penalties (-2 etc) or fixed values (your DCV drops to X). Halving DCV has much more effect on some characters than others.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

IIRC' date=' if something happens to alter your status (being stunned, KO'd, flashed, or entangled), you might have to reallocate...[/quote']

 

Being stunned or KO'd would turn off your CSLs so you would need to re-allocate when you came around. Being flashed shouldn't affect them IMO (although there might be penalties for not being able to see it would not affect CSL allocation), being entangled might also turn off CSLs, but that is more of a judgement call - certainly I'd rule if you can not use a maneouvre that the CSL applies to whilst entangled, you can not use CSLs, so they turn off.

[Vondy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

PS: Basketball Player sounds to me like what a professional athlete would take and covers all the aspects of being in the NBA, from practice etiquette to knowledge of training regimens to some aspects of dealing with the media after a game. I'm not convinced that there's a good way to actually play basketball within the Hero System, but PS: Pro Basketball Player would be an interesting background skill for certain campaigns or character concepts.

 

By the way, what about PS: Student?

 

You could always build it as a sport based martial art with maneuvers giving OCV bonuses vs. the hoop, bonuses to passing rolls, blocks against shots, grab by for stealing the ball, PERSONAL FOUL, and the like.

[archermoo]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

While I'm in this area, I never understood why being stunned did not affect base DCV: the definition of being stunning says you can take no actions and can not move - a stationary target should have a fixed DCV based on size: it should be 5 (working on a hex being DCV 3 and a human being about half a hex) or 2 if you are adjacent to the character (working on the same logic).

 

Being Stunned puts your DCV to 1/2, so it in effect does impact your base DCV, because generally that is all you have left at that point.

 

And when it says you can take no actions and cannot move, those are referring to game actions and using movement. It doesn't mean that you are paralyzed. A character that has already used their Phase in a Segment can take no actions and cannot move as well.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Never understood an entangle lowering your dcv to 0, either, when the hex you're standing in has a 3 DCV (it's only a 0 DCV if it's an attack from an adjacent hex).

[OddHat]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Never understood an entangle lowering your dcv to 0' date=' either, when the hex you're standing in has a 3 DCV (it's only a 0 DCV if it's an attack from an adjacent hex).[/quote']

 

Some of those hexes can be quick and wily.

 

Player Characters just stand there.

[nexus]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Never understood an entangle lowering your dcv to 0' date=' either, when the hex you're standing in has a 3 DCV (it's only a 0 DCV if it's an attack from an adjacent hex).[/quote']

 

Now that you mention it...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Never understood an entangle lowering your dcv to 0' date=' either, when the hex you're standing in has a 3 DCV (it's only a 0 DCV if it's an attack from an adjacent hex).[/quote']

 

While I see the discrepancy, try throwing a Frisbee or a ball at a flat target about 20 feet away (that's inside the 4" no range modifier radius). Then try throwing it at a person standing 20' away. I think it will be easier to hit the upright target.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

While I see the discrepancy' date=' try throwing a Frisbee or a ball at a flat target about 20 feet away (that's inside the 4" no range modifier radius). Then try throwing it at a person standing 20' away. I think it will be easier to hit the upright target.[/quote']

 

So, if the entangled target is prone, their DCV goes up to 3?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

So' date=' if the entangled target is prone, their DCV goes up to 3?[/quote']

 

I think there should be a rule: when rules and common sense conflict, common sense wins.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I think there should be a rule: when rules and common sense conflict' date=' common sense wins.[/quote']

 

Funny you bring that up

 

5ER p543 - Either Principles For Interpreting And Applying The Hero System Rules. Number 8.

 

that breakout should be moved to page 1. . . .

[ajackson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

So' date=' if the entangled target is prone, their DCV goes up to 3?[/quote']

Maybe 2; they're still capable of stopping an object passing through. Part of the reason it's hard to hit a hex on the ground is because it's so easy to overshoot.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Funny you bring that up

 

5ER p543 - Either Principles For Interpreting And Applying The Hero System Rules. Number 8.

 

that breakout should be moved to page 1. . . .

 

In 72 point bold.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Maybe 2; they're still capable of stopping an object passing through. Part of the reason it's hard to hit a hex on the ground is because it's so easy to overshoot.

 

What if I prop it upright, paint concentric circles on it, walk back 8 meters, draw my handgun and shoot at it? Still a DCV 3?

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

No, painted targets are a DCV 72.

[ajackson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

What if I prop it upright' date=' paint concentric circles on it, walk back 8 meters, draw my handgun and shoot at it? Still a DCV 3?[/quote']

Nope, DCV 0. A wall is DCV 0, a hex on the ground is DCV 3.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Nope' date=' DCV 0. A wall is DCV 0, a hex on the ground is DCV 3.[/quote']

 

So I have a ~10% chance of missing a 2 meter wide target from 30 feet away?

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I've seen people aim at things... you're being generous.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Some of those hexes can be quick and wily.

 

Player Characters just stand there.

 

 

Presumably hexes always hold their actions...

[OddHat]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

What if I prop it upright' date=' paint concentric circles on it, walk back 8 meters, draw my handgun and shoot at it? Still a DCV 3?[/quote']

 

If you insist on "realism":

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The police officer's potential for hitting his adversary during armed

confrontation has increased over the years and stands at slightly over 25% of

the rounds fired. An assailant's skill was 11% in 1979.

 

In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be

determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

 

Less than 3 yards ..... 38%

3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5%

7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4%

 

In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be

determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

 

Less than 3 yards ..... 28%

3 yards to 7 yards .... 11%

7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2%

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles/Shooting/Combat.htm

 

In real combat, a trained officer has about 1 chance in 3 of hitting a target in the adjacent hex. Add any distance, and the chance drops like a stone. Criminals are generally much worse shots in real confrontations.

 

Hero is being much too kind as far as allowing people to shoot straight, if we're talking "realistic".