6E Rules changes confirmed so far

[lemming]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

You know' date=' I've generally liked Hero Fans for over 25 years but the reaction of some of those fans to the 6th edition changes has almost succeeded in making me hate Hero fans in general.[/quote']

 

Aw, there were some pretty virulent threads about the changes in 4th. We're just more connected now.

[ajackson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

And Steve confirmed that Unified Power could be used on CHAR in direct response to my question' date=' so what conclusion would I have jumped to?[/quote']

The obvious conclusion is that, well, you can make a package deal containing stats. Which you can do without unified power, too.

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

The obvious conclusion is that' date=' well, you can make a package deal containing stats. Which you can do without unified power, too.[/quote']

 

I think his point was that Unified Power would offer a point break, which a Template (formerly known as a Package Deal) would not.

[nexus]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Oh, come on, complaining about the minor little bit of extra work caused by decoupling Figured Characteristics calls for a snark in my mind.

 

It doesn't matter if that extra work is 30 seconds (love your ability to predict just how long will be...), 30 minutes or 3 seconds. Its extra work that provides absolutely jack all benefit to me in a chargen system that's already pretty dang involved. It takes long enough as it is, there is enough to deal with as it is. Why should I be happy about required to do more for nothing? Please explain that. It's like someone adding a wind up key to my car ignition. It might only take a few seconds to twist but why? It does nothing but add time.

 

But if it makes people feel better, I will apologize.

 

Gee thanks for your half hearted forced "apology". I'm moved I'm really am. And I'm sorry you think someone have different preferences and desires for the game is worthy of condensation or that somehow this will make those on the fence about the game more interesting it taking a look at instead of dismissing it out of hand.

 

You know' date=' I've generally liked Hero Fans for over 25 years but the reaction of some of those fans to the 6th edition changes has almost succeeded in making me hate Hero fans in general.[/quote']

 

Why? Because they dare not to like what they've told automatically and voice opinions other than gushing admiration? I don't care that some people get gushy over a book they probably haven't seen yet what bugs me is when they start getting personal and insulting about it to people that disagree particularly when it seems most of that group is willing to give the whole a chance. It's petty and frankly, kind of fanboish.

 

Geesh, guys, it's just a game that you use to waste a few hours of time now and then -- it's not life and death. Just calm down.

 

I was calm. I asked a question, was asked one, answered and got mocked for it. Not for the first time and I'm not the only one.

 

Maybe you should consider taking some of your own advice here. Honestly, you've been coming across as some kind of overzealous fanatic, mocking and condescending to anyone that disagree with you on one turn than whining about Steve Long being picked on and not being treated like "one of us" on other while giving a pretty poor example how we treat "our own". It's great that you like the changes in 6th edition. Some people don't,. Steve Long is not a god of gaming, not a supergenius and he didn't write 6th by carving it into the side of a mountain with a finger of fire so please stop treating people that haven't been thrilled by what they've seen so far as heretics before the Church of Sixth. It's just a book written by a guy and so far one that hasn't impressed on me the need to blow lots of of money on it.

[nexus]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I feel what is effecting some here is the discussion on 6e more than 6e itself, and the going back and forth before we really get to experience it as a working whole, instead of the few focused parts we see. It's sort of like tasting a few ingredients of a dish, and fighting over it with other cooks before trying the finished meal. It's better just to go have an appetizer or a nice drink and shoot the breeze and wait for dinner to be served.

 

oh well...the downside of the internet, sneak peeks and such.

 

Personally, I'm looking for reasons to like it and to be excited about the previews we've gotten. I'd like to be excited rather than grimly determined to wait and see the entire thing. Unfortunately that has not occurred. Anything I've been even marginally excited about has been put to rest fairly quickly as either a misinterpretation of an announcement or something come up with whole cloth from assumed facts.

 

I keep being told I should have "faith" in Steve Long. I don't see why I have should have any more faith in him than I do in any other rpg writer that has some produced some material I liked in the past. I've disagreed with him strongly before and will in the future. The fact that he's writing 6th essentially exclusively on his own gives me no innate confidence it will be great nor has anything I've seen given me that impression.

 

But the thing is I am still asking questions. I have enough "faith" to not just walk at this point. My 5th books aren't going to burst into flames and I'm fine with them and my house rules. I can't speak for all of them but those still asking questions are generally those still on the fence at least among those unconvinced about 6th. The people that have made up their minds are mostly not participating in these threads any longer. Those that are, are, like myself, looking for reasons to like it and look forward to seeing more.

 

Some have even found a few reasons.

[Alibear]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

True, I've made up my mind to buy SIX.

 

Almost all of the changes that Steve has let us see are what I would consider beneficial to my style of GMing and play.

 

I'm quite excited about it actually.

[The Main Man]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I think his point was that Unified Power would offer a point break' date=' which a Template (formerly known as a Package Deal) would not.[/quote']

 

Never thought of Package Deals...Then again, I started with 5e, so I never knew a HERO where they were, well, actual deals, granted I know of the fact that they provided a tad different kind of benefit than a set of abilities which were strung together for a reduced cost.

[McCoy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

But if it makes people feel better' date=' I will apologize.[/quote']

 

You know' date=' I've generally liked Hero Fans for over 25 years but the reaction of some of those fans to the 6th edition changes has almost succeeded in making me hate Hero fans in general.[/quote']

Consecutive post.

 

Welcome to my ignore list.

[Vondy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Maybe you're right. All I know is that I've been an enthusiastic fan of Hero System for over 20 yrs but this 6th edition crap has almost succeeded in strangling that enthusiasm to death in a matter of months.

 

I would point out that none of us have actually seen 6e. We've got a few disparate tidbits, but until we see the new version both as a whole and in detail most of the discussion is speculative [churning up a tempest in the teapot]. I guess I'm just echoing GA's comment. Judge the system when it comes out, not the hyperbolic chaff on the boards. I dislike some of what I've heard. Other things have promise depending on implementation. But, I haven't taken it out for a test drive. Until then I can't form a substantive opinion.

[McCoy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I would point out that none of us have actually seen 6e. We've got a few disparate tidbits' date=' but until we see the new version both as a whole and in detail most of the discussion is speculative [churning up a tempest in the teapot']. I guess I'm just echoing GA's comment. Judge the system when it comes out, not the hyperbolic chaff on the boards. I dislike some of what I've heard. Other things have promise depending on implementation. But, I haven't taken it out for a test drive. Until then I can't form a substantive opinion.

Yep, I'm committed to buying it when it comes out, I'll look it over. In the meantime most of the negative emotion I'm feeling for SexEd is not from anything Steve has confirmed, but the snarkiness of this thread.

[BlackSword]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Why? Because they dare not to like what they've told automatically and voice opinions other than gushing admiration? I don't care that some people get gushy over a book they probably haven't seen yet what bugs me is when they start getting personal and insulting about it to people that disagree particularly when it seems most of that group is willing to give the whole a chance. It's petty and frankly' date=' kind of fanboish. [/quote']

I somewhat agree with Rod's statements, from some of the threads there are some Hero gamers that I am 'glad*' that I do not play with. Its not that people have to be all 'gushy' over the changes, I understand that people disagree with the changes. Its that people have been over the top, "THIS IS THE END OF HERO" about even minor changes (though to be fair, I remember complaints about the paper that 5R was printed on, so I suppose if people are going to find ways to complain about paper, they are going to find ways to complain about rules changes). Also some of the people who are most vocal about their displeasure at 6E don't seem to disagree a change, they HATE a change. To me hate is a strong emotion, not something I am going to apply to a game.

 

*I say that based solely on board persona, some of them may be over the top on the board and fine people to game with IRL.

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

It doesn't matter if that extra work is 30 seconds (love your ability to predict just how long will be...)' date=' 30 minutes or 3 seconds. Its extra work [b']that provides absolutely jack all benefit to me[/b] in a chargen system that's already pretty dang involved. It takes long enough as it is, there is enough to deal with as it is. Why should I be happy about required to do more for nothing? Please explain that. It's like someone adding a wind up key to my car ignition. It might only take a few seconds to twist but why? It does nothing but add time.

 

Fine. It's very obviously a major difference in how you and I design characters. I have always looked at every single Figured Characteristic and made a decision as to whether its base value should be bought up or not. And if I decided I should buy up enough Figured Characteristics, I would go back and look at whether or not I should buy up the appropriate Primary Characteristics instead and often have to make decisions of a concept vs. efficiency nature. So to me, the decoupling is actually more efficient and straightforward and leads to fewer concept vs. efficiency decisions.

 

However, I will admit if you are someone who never bought up Figured Characteristics, you might find the new method a little more work.

 

Gee thanks for your half hearted forced "apology". I'm moved I'm really am. And I'm sorry you think someone have different preferences and desires for the game is worthy of condensation or that somehow this will make those on the fence about the game more interesting it taking a look at instead of dismissing it out of hand.

 

I think you may have misunderstood. My statement was that if it would make people feel better, then I will apologize. I have not apologized yet at all. I merely stated that I will do it if it will make people feel better.

 

 

Why? Because they dare not to like what they've told automatically and voice opinions other than gushing admiration? I don't care that some people get gushy over a book they probably haven't seen yet what bugs me is when they start getting personal and insulting about it to people that disagree particularly when it seems most of that group is willing to give the whole a chance. It's petty and frankly, kind of fanboish.

 

Okay, first of all, that statement was meant more or less as a parody of statements like your own that the sixth edition changes were driving them away from the game. No, it's got nothing to do with people expressing opinions other than gushing admiration. It's people jumping to conclusions on partial information; it's people continuing to argue about things that have already been decided; it's people being close-minded about character design methods other than their own; it's people attaching deep significance to a set of formulae that were pretty clearly chosen for convenience rather than any significant real life relationship.

 

And the discussions have been pretty much limited to the changes revealed. I have certainly not dismissed the possibility that the rest of the 6th edition may contain something that I absolutely hate. If it turns out that the rest of the rules do contain something like that, I will quite likely drop the game and move on -- I might post a good-bye message on these boards, but more likely I will just cut all ties and be gone.

 

There are changes that I would have made that Steve hasn't and changes that he has made that I wouldn't. For example, I'm not sure I would have dropped COM but I would have probably taken a good long look at decoupling Skills from Characteristics and removing the Language Chart. I would have also taken a good long at how Limitations and Advantages are presented and calculated. But none of those things appear to be happening.

 

I was calm. I asked a question, was asked one, answered and got mocked for it. Not for the first time and I'm not the only one.

 

Perhaps you got caught in the backlash of frustration at the over-the-top reactions of others.

 

Maybe you should consider taking some of your own advice here. Honestly, you've been coming across as some kind of overzealous fanatic, mocking and condescending to anyone that disagree with you on one turn than whining about Steve Long being picked on and not being treated like "one of us" on other while giving a pretty poor example how we treat "our own". It's great that you like the changes in 6th edition. Some people don't,. Steve Long is not a god of gaming, not a supergenius and he didn't write 6th by carving it into the side of a mountain with a finger of fire so please stop treating people that haven't been thrilled by what they've seen so far as heretics before the Church of Sixth. It's just a book written by a guy and so far one that hasn't impressed on me the need to blow lots of of money on it.

 

Fine and that's a perfectly valid and calmly expressed opinion. My objection is not to people disagreeing with the changes -- that's inevitable. Heck, I'm surprised I haven't disagreed with more of the changes. And frankly, in my mind, I can't just house rule away changes I don't like because I primarily run convention games that are somewhat supported by Hero Games and feel an obligation to handle things as by-the-book as possible.

My objection is with the close-minded over-the-top reactions of many people.

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Consecutive post.

 

Welcome to my ignore list.

 

The first post was an offer to apologize if it would make people feel better and the second post was meant more humorously than it came out, obviously.

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Yep' date=' I'm committed to buying it when it comes out, I'll look it over. In the meantime most of the negative emotion I'm feeling for SexEd is not from anything Steve has confirmed, but the snarkiness of this thread.[/quote']

 

Fine. And I have no problem with that reaction at all. It's not that people disagree it's how they're expressing their disagreement.

[Simon]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Sigh.

 

One warning apparently isn't enough.

 

 

CALM DOWN!

 

Cripes people....this shouldn't be difficult. Keep the discussion to the topic, not those discussing it.

 

If you feel that you're getting heated LEAVE THE DISCUSSION. Don't read the thread. AT ALL.

 

I've placed a number of people into moderated status as a result of this thread. If it gets to be more, then I'm going to just shut this down.

[nexus]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I would point out that none of us have actually seen 6e. We've got a few disparate tidbits' date=' but until we see the new version both as a whole and in detail most of the discussion is speculative [churning up a tempest in the teapot']. I guess I'm just echoing GA's comment. Judge the system when it comes out, not the hyperbolic chaff on the boards. I dislike some of what I've heard. Other things have promise depending on implementation. But, I haven't taken it out for a test drive. Until then I can't form a substantive opinion.

 

As I've said I intend too. It's not the idea of 6th edition that bugs me it some of the attitude that's been displayed over it.

[Alibear]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

The first post was an offer to apologize if it would make people feel better and the second post was meant more humorously than it came out' date=' obviously.[/quote']

 

 

Nowt obvoius on t'net, Rod.

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Nowt obvoius on t'net' date=' Rod.[/quote']

 

You're probably right. I should have least added a smiley face and maybe attempted a greater parallel in sentence structure, but ah well.

 

It is funny, to me anyways, that Nexus and I are both annoyed by basically the same thing

[Hierax]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Hopefully Steve Long reveals some more juicy tidbits/teasers in his Chat tonight and we can discuss them and stay on topic.

Personally, I'm looking forward to H6E whatever the changes are because it'll provide more options to pick and choose from. The more changes the more options there are, all the old options from previous editions and house rules are available to make the game I want. I don't feel forced to play a RAW single edition of the game as is. It's a gaming toolkit, more tools = more gaming goodness, YMMV.

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Hopefully Steve Long reveals some more juicy tidbits/teasers in his Chat tonight and we can discuss them and stay on topic.

Personally, I'm looking forward to H6E whatever the changes are because it'll provide more options to pick and choose from. The more changes the more options there are, all the old options from previous editions and house rules are available to make the game I want. I don't feel forced to play a RAW single edition of the game as is. It's a gaming toolkit, more tools = more gaming goodness, YMMV.

 

I'm not sure how many options will be presented in the main rulebooks. I think there'll be a few but there'll be more in the Advanced Player's Guide.

[nexus]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I'm not sure how many options will be presented in the main rulebooks. I think there'll be a few but there'll be more in the Advanced Player's Guide.

 

Not to put words in Heirax's mouth but I think he meant that the more rules are out there the more rules and options he has to pick and choose from overall. He can take stuff from 4th, 5th, 6th, House rules and stuff he picks up here and enjoys and combine to make his own unique FrankenHero so to speak. Which isn't a bad way to approach things.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Personally, I'm looking for reasons to like it and to be excited about the previews we've gotten. I'd like to be excited rather than grimly determined to wait and see the entire thing. Unfortunately that has not occurred. Anything I've been even marginally excited about has been put to rest fairly quickly as either a misinterpretation of an announcement or something come up with whole cloth from assumed facts.

 

 

But the thing is I am still asking questions. I have enough "faith" to not just walk at this point. My 5th books aren't going to burst into flames and I'm fine with them and my house rules. I can't speak for all of them but those still asking questions are generally those still on the fence at least among those unconvinced about 6th. The people that have made up their minds are mostly not participating in these threads any longer. Those that are, are, like myself, looking for reasons to like it and look forward to seeing more.

 

Some have even found a few reasons.

 

That's where I am too nothing new so far revealed has thrilled me except small things that are unconfirmed possibilities and the revealed negatives are enormous and those things revealed that excited were later "corrected" or we were told "no not really" but... I haven't seen the final product so there may be tons of gems I don't know about that haven't been mentioned. So I'll definitely check it out maybe just the character creation book in PDF first

 

We really only know things to a very shallow degree. It's possible after it comes out the present like it/ hate camps may completely dissolve, reverse or reorganize.

[ajackson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

As I've said I intend too. It's not the idea of 6th edition that bugs me it some of the attitude that's been displayed over it.

A thing you might consider, however: a significant portion of the reason for the 'snark' you perceive is that incessant complaining about a change is also pretty irritating to those people who like the change. If you want this thread to be more polite I suggest not discussing figured characteristics at all, positive or negative.

[Lucius]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

It's also possible that some changes will have effects none of us have anticipated - possibly even Mr. Long.

 

For example, has it occurred to anyone else that The Great De-Coupling takes one giant step towards making Telekinesis obsolete?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The provocative palindromedary thinks it's a step towards making Characteristics obsolete

[GamePhil]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well, really, Telekinesis has been on the verge of obsolescence for some time. You could always buy it as STR, No Figured, Ranged, if that were not cautioned against in the rules.