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6E Rules changes confirmed so far


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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

A general philosophical note: So long as people on both sides of these arguments (not all of them, but it only takes a few) continue to believe that they are the only ones being reasonable, we won't get anywhere.

 

You'd still have to buy them up independently which requires an larger amount of points to spent to get the same character and a an additional step I don't currently need for every character as it stands.

 

Yes, the point cost will certainly go up if you actually want to stick to 6th Ed, but as far as the work, all you have to do is wait for someone to do it for you.

 

Figured Characteristics in 6th Edition:

First, I assume a -0 Limitation, so that the Characteristics are full costs but linked in the traditional HERO manner. Then, I assume that they get a -1/4 Limitation to unify them in some way, though not necessarily as the Unified Limitation, the assumption there being that the group of Primary and Figured Characteristics is somehow worth that, even if it's purely, "These things should get a cost break!". I've argued that a "cost break" Limitation would be valuable for certain games for some time.

 

But depending on how Unified works, it may end up being sufficient. In any event. I am getting these scores by going to a level where everything is derived evenly, and dividing it up from there. I'm using current costs unless someone can point out an announcement that gives new costs, so this is perforce and example. I'm also assuming a flat cost per Characteristic of 1 per point. I could have sworn that someone had posted the list of costs somewhere, but I can't find it.

 

STR:

+20 STR: 20 points.

4 PD: 4 points.

4 REC: 8 points.

10 STUN: 10 points

4" Leap: 4 points

Total: 46 points, or 2.3 points per point of STR, about 2 with our proposed Limitation. So, buy STR at 2 points per point and it functions exactly like the old way.

 

DEX:

Going with OCV and DCV costing 5. This is an expensive one:

+30 DEX: 30 points.

+10 OCV, DCV: 100 points.

+3 SPD: 30 points.

Total: 160 points, or about 5 1/3 points. With the -1/4, a little over 4 points.

 

CON:

+20 CON: 20 points.

+4 ED: 4 points.

+4 REC: 8 points.

+40 END: 20 points.

+10 STUN: 10 points.

Total: 62 points, or about 3 points per point. Limitation makes it something like 2.5.

 

And so on. If I wanted to use 6th and re-introduce Figureds, and not just pull the old Characteristic Table into my game, that's how I'd do it. I'm hoping the costs of the former Figured Characteristics go down, and I'd certainly round like crazy so that you don't get those odd-ball numbers.

 

But if I wanted Figureds in the game to only be like the system we have now, I'd just grab the chart and pull it over. Only reason I'm thinking of using something like the above is that the added flexibility of defining things other than that is valuable to me.

 

So, I have my character that is an energy being that instead of having PD based on STR has a Force Field based on it. Or my sentient binary load lifter that has no association between them at all. Apparently, that makes me weird, but that's exciting to me.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

A thing you might consider' date=' however: a significant portion of the reason for the 'snark' you perceive is that incessant complaining about a change is also pretty irritating to those people who like the change. If you want this thread to be more polite I suggest not discussing figured characteristics at all, positive or negative.[/quote']

 

That could apply about almost any controversial change though. You never know what will "break the bank" so to speak.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well' date=' really, Telekinesis has been on the verge of obsolescence for some time. You could always buy it as STR, No Figured, Ranged, if that were not cautioned against in the rules.[/quote']

 

 

It is also indirect, which is astonishingly useful in some cases. Mind you, I can see a case for ditching TK: don't think it will happen, but I can see a case.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Sigh.

 

One warning apparently isn't enough.

 

 

CALM DOWN!

 

Cripes people....this shouldn't be difficult. Keep the discussion to the topic, not those discussing it.

 

 

...............

 

 

Right. Step outside, sunshine...

 

I'm amazed anyone has time to get tired and emotional about this - it's moving so fast I can barely keep up, let alone get worked up :)

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

It's also possible that some changes will have effects none of us have anticipated - possibly even Mr. Long.

 

For example, has it occurred to anyone else that The Great De-Coupling takes one giant step towards making Telekinesis obsolete?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The provocative palindromedary thinks it's a step towards making Characteristics obsolete

 

Well, I think TK exists as a Power simply because it's clearer to people than STR usable at range. It's a part of a lot of Power sets.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

It is also indirect' date=' which is astonishingly useful in some cases. Mind you, I can see a case for ditching TK: don't think it will happen, but I can see a case.[/quote']

 

Good point, I always forget that. Still, it appears actually easier to get around needing it now than it will be when we no longer have the -1/2.

 

Edit: Just to be clear, I don't want to get rid of TK unless the game underwent a "minimilist" stage, which it's not :)

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well' date=' I think TK exists as a Power simply because it's clearer to people than STR usable at range. It's a part of a lot of Power sets.[/quote']

 

I agree. In fact I think getting rid of lots of "obsolete " powers such as telekinesis might make things harder for newbies. Now if they want TK , they can find TK easily and don't have to create it.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

DEX:

Going with OCV and DCV costing 5. This is an expensive one:

+30 DEX: 30 points.

+10 OCV, DCV: 100 points.

+3 SPD: 30 points.

Total: 160 points, or about 5 1/3 points. With the -1/4, a little over 4 points.

 

Actually I believe that OCV/DCV will have a base other then zero like two or three. So it makes it a little cheaper. That is if I recall correctly.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Actually I believe that OCV/DCV will have a base other then zero like two or three. So it makes it a little cheaper. That is if I recall correctly.

 

Steve already stated that OCV and DCV will each have a base of 3.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Actually I believe that OCV/DCV will have a base other then zero like two or three. So it makes it a little cheaper. That is if I recall correctly.

 

Yes, but so will DEX: I was talking about the number of things an increase of 30 DEX will give you, not a total DEX of 30.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I agree. In fact I think getting rid of lots of "obsolete " powers such as telekinesis might make things harder for newbies. Now if they want TK ' date=' they can find TK easily and don't have to create it.[/quote']

 

One could use the same argument regarding Instant Change and Regeneration. :)

 

Although a little bird told me that Regeneration might be making a comeback in 6th... :whistle:

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well' date=' really, Telekinesis has been on the verge of obsolescence for some time. You could always buy it as STR, No Figured, Ranged, if that were not cautioned against in the rules.[/quote']

 

It is also indirect' date=' which is astonishingly useful in some cases. Mind you, I can see a case for ditching TK: don't think it will happen, but I can see a case.[/quote']

 

Indirect is often commonly forgotten. Really, TK is Strength, Ranged (+1/2), Indirect (+3/4), No Figured (-1/2). That's STR x 2.25/1.5 = STR x 1.5. The math works at present.

 

I would like to see TK, at is basic level NOT be indirect. That's the Green Lantern Ring Projection version of Telekinesis. You want the Psychic Objects Move version, you add IPE and Indirect. If we can't have that, at least there should be a limitation for Not Indirect" TK explicitly in the rules.

 

I agree. In fact I think getting rid of lots of "obsolete " powers such as telekinesis might make things harder for newbies. Now if they want TK ' date=' they can find TK easily and don't have to create it.[/quote']

 

Force Field, Armor, etc. Having these abilities available makes the game much more intuitive. Of course, one could also list Telekinesis in the powers section described solely as STR with these advantages/limitations, rather than have it as a base power, but that would still be a pretty radical change.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I think that the nudity rules will more vastly affect the gameplay dynamics than the booze. ;)

 

I rather thought that the impact of the drinking directly lead to the impact of the nudity, but both are certainly essential.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I've read this thread all the way through but I still fail to understand:

 

What is the big hang-up?

 

Steve Long is obviously following through on the direction the Hero System has been going, however erratically: the definition in game terms of the relative in-game value of a game system which has already been tried and tested to be fully functional in several genres.

 

As he stated already way back in the Dark Champions supplement Hudson City (original version); it is way easier to remove specific circumstances in a general environment. Those who want to put stuff back in can easily do so.

 

Decoupling is the road to allowing everyone to design exactly the character they want. The evolution of this principle/idea is what interests me, and what makes me look forward to 6Ed.

 

I think everyone here knows that the result will be an evolution of a system that already works well, not a substitute. Steve Long is an intelligent writer and designer; his lack of need for playtesting is because the system itself already works. Character design, clarifications and options are therefore likely the focus of most of the changes in 6Ed.

 

If the cost for a given character changes, the cost will have to be readjusted according to the new costs. If you disagree with any specific cost or if you want to cost it the way it works currently, I fail to see a problem. I myself have no way of deciding if I will agree exactly to the definitions, costs, and changes that will soon be presented, but I will certainly consider them, because the Hero System has yet to fail me in the expectation that it will continue to evolve. Have some faith, Steve Long is a fan too - otherwise he'd be doing something else...

 

...much like all of us if we didn't care about this. :)

 

Just saying, as far as I've seen,, it's all been about reducing elements to basics. Which I think is good, since you build from the ground up.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Now, now, let's not start that up again. You like these changes, that's great. After consideration, I have to say I like them too. But for a variety of reasons, several people don't, and saying "what's the big deal" isn't going to help, nor is "it's the direction the game has been going in" is equally ineffective if they didn't like that direction to begin with.

 

As one of the instigators of the Incomplete Rules, I'm pretty much required to like any change to the rules that moves towards unifying character creation for unusual characters. Removing Figureds does that, but I would have preferred keeping and broadening them to allow re-linking what stat goes with what. But, because of my personal biases, I have overcome my misgivings because the new system, from what I've seen, will actually work better and more consistently for my needs. Now, imagine someone that liked those rules and did not place the same importance on the "oddball" characters as I do: obviously, they're going to dislike the changes.

 

With any luck, there will be enough new stuff that they like to keep them in the fold, even if they pick up the old Characteristic Block and move it over. We shall see.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Now' date=' now, let's not start that up again. You like these changes, that's great. After consideration, I have to say I like them too. But for a variety of reasons, several people don't, and saying "what's the big deal" isn't going to help, nor is "it's the direction the game has been going in" is equally ineffective if they didn't like that direction to begin with.[/quote']

 

Agreed. As has been pointed out before, something that's "not a big deal" should not reasonably attract a passionate defense of the change, nor a passionate defense of the current rules. Clearly, the items argued over vehemently are a "big deal", at least to those doing the arguing.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Actually I think torchwolf made some good observations. Nothing is being subtracted that can't easily be replaced. There will be a hundred different Sex Ed threads on replacing COM the day after the rules release. People have already suggested ways to recouple CHAR in this thread and have pointed out to all those people that thought EGO should contribute to STUN, well, here's your chance your chance to make them proportional and related. You will still be able to do anything you were able to do before, and more in addition. I consider that an unalloyed improvement.

 

HERO System shines when you build from a foundation skyward and has problems when you have to chip away at your sculpture hoping to not hit an unexpected flaw. Anything replacing assumptions with options is a beautiful thing IMO.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I don't see re-coupling to be that easy of an issue. Since the cost of characteristics have changed (due to decoupling) the point balance of characteristics will be thrown off when/if you attempt to recouple under 6E. I guess I could always keep the old point costs for characteristics. However, if I am going to recouple, keep the old point costs, keep COM, and keep CV based on DEX (or EGO for ECV), I am better off just sticking with 5ER and house ruling the few things I like about 6E so far.

 

Fortunately it looks like it will be fairly easy to enter 6E characters into HD to get 5ER compatibility whenever I need to.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I don't see re-coupling to be that easy of an issue. Since the cost of characteristics have changed (due to decoupling) the point balance of characteristics will be thrown off when/if you attempt to recouple under 6E. I guess I could always keep the old point costs for characteristics. However, if I am going to recouple, keep the old point costs, keep COM, and keep CV based on DEX (or EGO for ECV), I am better off just sticking with 5ER and house ruling the few things I like about 6E so far.

 

Yeah, that's what I think it comes down to. Is it allot of work to "fix" 6th if yo don't like than to stay with 5th. Dropping Figs and derived CV isn't a minor change to reverse. It's going to effect things across the board (characteristic costs, cost of combat skill levels, starting point totals) If those aren't changes to a particular player then the rest of the package has to be very impressive to compensate.

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