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6E Rules changes confirmed so far


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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well' date=' without taking a side of the fence on the Int/Per thing, I [i']would[/i] like to point out that it is currently possible to have restricted Perception bonuses. You can buy Perception bonuses to some or all senses using Enhanced Perception, and you can certainly add Limitations to them.

 

most of the things supposedly not doable , I've found are usually easily doable IMO.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

That restriction is' date=' sadly, absolutely essential. Otherwise, because of the costings of characteristics, once you allow selling back multiple figured characteristics you can make selling back give you more points than the cost of increasing the primary characteristic to add the figured characteristics you're selling back. To put it another way, the more you buy the less it costs overall.[/quote']

 

Hmm, guess I just never saw it abused that way. I was only seeing ignoring the restriction so a character concept could be fulfilled that the rules were getting in the way of. But with the abuse you mention in mind I guess it makes sense, but that's probably the best reason I've heard to get rid of Figured Characteristics then, abuse not a concern and flexiblitity increased.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well' date=' without taking a side of the fence on the Int/Per thing, I [i']would[/i] like to point out that it is currently possible to have restricted Perception bonuses. You can buy Perception bonuses to some or all senses using Enhanced Perception, and you can certainly add Limitations to them.

 

I agree. I even made the very same point regarding figured characteristics and decoupling of OCV/DCV/OECV/DECV in the post that you quoted from. What the decoupling mentioned above does is not to expand what is possible but to make doing it more elegant. With that in mind, failing to carry through the same reasoning to the Int/Perception coupling is oddly inconsistent.

 

Limited perception bonuses can provide situational modifiers to perception. Buying INT with a does not add to perception in X situation limitation can deal with the issue of wanting a perception less than a character's INT would normally provide. But it isn't an elegant solution, and if 6th edition is decoupling pretty much everything else leaving Int and Perception coupled seems an odd decision.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I guess I just can't comprehend the GM wouldn't have a norm and you might be not as weak or tough as you think you are if you don't know his scale. I sure wouldn't like a game with that little rhyme and reason to my mind. I guess either the assumption made sense to you or it didn't.

 

We're very likely to have guidelines on suitable average levels for different kinds of campaigns (heroic, supers, high-powered supers, etc.), just like in 5ER. That seems just as good a common-sense comparison to me.

 

I don't know. It just seems to me that some folks have been leaning on a crutch for so long they don't realize they weren't disabled to begin with. I wasn't even particularly keen on the idea of eliminating Figured Characteristics myself (or let's say that, while I wasn't vehemently against it, I wasn't very excited about the possibility either), but now that it's happening and the rest of the system is being smoothed out to make it work, I don't think it is a bad idea at all.

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Guest steamteck

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

We're very likely to have guidelines on suitable average levels for different kinds of campaigns (heroic, supers, high-powered supers, etc.), just like in 5ER. That seems just as good a common-sense comparison to me.

 

I don't know. It just seems to me that some folks have been leaning on a crutch for so long they don't realize they weren't disabled to begin with. I wasn't even particularly keen on the idea of eliminating Figured Characteristics myself (or let's say that, while I wasn't vehemently against it, I wasn't very excited about the possibility either), but now that it's happening and the rest of the system is being smoothed out to make it work, I don't think it is a bad idea at all.

 

While I don't see anything added the more I think about it, the less I find it appealing ( and I didn't like decoupling to start with). except the divorcing of CV which is so aborant to me I can barely speak of it.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I guess I just can't comprehend the GM wouldn't have a norm and you might be not as weak or tough as you think you are if you don't know his scale. I sure wouldn't like a game with that little rhyme and reason to my mind. I guess either the assumption made sense to you or it didn't.

 

I guess I can't comprehend that that norm for some characteristics would be based on what other of your characteristics are. That one person with a 3 PD could be considered tough because his STR was 10, while another guy with a 3 PD could be considered wimpy because his STR was 20. They're both just as tough or as wimpy (or whatever adjectives you prefer to describe PD) since they have the same value for PD.

 

I'm used to the averages and maxes for all stats being absolute, not based on what you have for other of your stats. Obviously YMMV.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Even in my superheroic games REC' date=' END and STUN tend to be left at their default Figured values unless the character concept is supposed to be higher, such as a brick.[/quote']

Our experiences obviously vary. In most of the games I have played, people have bought up PD and bought down END, after buying CON to high values. The only reason STUN, REC and ED weren't bought up was that you got a better deal buying up CON (and sometimes STR) until you had the ED, REC and STUN you wanted, then buying down END.

 

FWIW, the math regarding figureds never bothered me. What bothered me was:

a) That people bought high stats out-of-concept because it was cheaper than staying in concept.

B) That Drains, etc., didn't affect stats with many figureds the same way they affected stats with few or no figureds.

c) That there were so many breakpoints to consider (now it's just 8, 13, 18, etc.).

 

- Klaus

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I guess I just can't comprehend the GM wouldn't have a norm and you might be not as weak or tough as you think you are if you don't know his scale. I sure wouldn't like a game with that little rhyme and reason to my mind. I guess either the assumption made sense to you or it didn't.

 

I can. I played in more than one of his campaigns before I realized how severely limited he is as a GM.

 

Based (especially) on those experiences, there should be a GM-established norm and range, at least at the beginning of the campaign.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

That restriction is' date=' sadly, absolutely essential. Otherwise, because of the costings of characteristics, once you allow selling back multiple figured characteristics you can make selling back give you more points than the cost of increasing the primary characteristic to add the figured characteristics you're selling back. To put it another way, the more you buy the less it costs overall.[/quote']

 

I think this highlights the underlying issue with Figured Characteristics. It was not, at least to me, the concept. It was the costing. Without changing any of the costs, STR and CON provided Figured's with more than their cost. This lead to the "only one sellback" rule. Otherwise, I can buy 10 million CON (20 million points), sell back 20 million END (10 million points), 5 million STUN (5 million points), 2 million REC (4 million points) and 2 million ED (2 million points) and have 1 million points left over to spend as I please. Whether that's because the secondaries were priced accurately, making CON a bargain, or because END, REC and/or STUN were overpriced, the result was not appropriate, at least in my view.

 

To my mind, if figured characteristics were to be retained, the pricing needed to be fixed, and No Figured priced by characteristic such that the Figured given up had a cost commensurate with the points saved using the limitation.

 

While I would the have retained Figured Characteristics, there would have been no compelling need, since there would have been no difference, ideally, between buying stats with No Figured and buying up the secondaries, or buying stats with Figured. I'm hopeful that, with decoupling, there has been serious consideration given to repricing the characteristics to be in line with their value.

 

Perhaps APG, or APG II, can suggest formuli for figured characteristics, plus repricing of the primaries, to return Figured to 6e for those GM's who want it.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

You already have the same design flexibility. If you wanted to make a character who was an "exception" to the general rule then buy some or all of the relevant characteristics with No Figured. At least I never ran into a character I couldn't build with Figured chars in place.

 

Of course you had the same design flexibility, in a sense, but only at the cost of penalizing characters that didn't fit into a specific mold, in that they lost more than was fair. This is an unacceptable answer to those of us that want to make unusual character easy and balanced with everyone else. If that were the only thing that dumping Figured Characteristics were meant to fix, I'd view it as a baby-and-bath-water deal, but it does fix the problem.

 

But see Hugh's previous post: other forms of re-working would have been just as good for that. I do feel there are other benefits, though, it's just a matter of time to see if they are worth the cost.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Of course you had the same design flexibility' date=' in a sense, but only at the cost of penalizing characters that didn't fit into a specific mold, in that they lost more than was fair.[/quote']

 

Punishing them in what sense? Again, I'm not saying the issue wasn't there but it wasn't something I ever ran into in play or noticed otherwise.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Of course you had the same design flexibility, in a sense, but only at the cost of penalizing characters that didn't fit into a specific mold, in that they lost more than was fair. This is an unacceptable answer to those of us that want to make unusual character easy and balanced with everyone else. If that were the only thing that dumping Figured Characteristics were meant to fix, I'd view it as a baby-and-bath-water deal, but it does fix the problem.

 

But see Hugh's previous post: other forms of re-working would have been just as good for that. I do feel there are other benefits, though, it's just a matter of time to see if they are worth the cost.

 

How were unusual character's penalized unduly?

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

How were unusual character's penalized unduly?

 

You lose more points from taking the Limitation than the Limitation gives you, especially if you plan to buy back some of them, which almost every character will do. My Powered Armor makes me very strong, but its STR doesn't give me PD or STUN or REC, so I have to buy them up separately if I want them? Ugh, I'll just not take the Limitation and give it a special effect that allows for such things. STUN alone already loses you more points than you gained by not taking No Figured Characteristics, if you want it.

 

De-coupling them avoids that, so even if I buy them up separately I'm not penalized compared to a regular Brick: everyone does it the same way. And, while I can just always take a character conception that allows for my PD to just be high and not conceptually linked to STR, I don't want to be forced to do so.

 

That's a problem that Hugh's solution would nicely correct, since it's quite possible that the problem was with the value of No Figured Characteristics, the cost of said Figured Characteristics, or both. Probably both. Hence my statement that there were other solutions to this problem. But this solution does correct it, whether or not it is otherwise desirable.

 

Personally, though, and on a less objective note, I prefer being able to link things up in a straightforward manner however I wish, rather than having to unlink them and relink them again, or unlink them and leave them that way. But I also build probably a larger percentage of characters that this will be useful for than most people. So it goes.

 

My ideal? Re-cost things per Hugh's suggestions to make them balance out, provide rules to create a Characteristic Block with Primaries and Figureds designed and linked however you prefer, and keep the pre-4th Edition version of EC's. But the benefits I thought of for such a system seem to have been covered to my satisfaction, and I did spend some time thinking about the re-definition of Figureds without coming up with a way that was both simple and flexible, so I'm calling it good enough. Well, for now, the house rules gears are always grinding.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

You lose more points from taking the Limitation than the Limitation gives you, especially if you plan to buy back some of them, which almost every character will do. My Powered Armor makes me very strong, but its STR doesn't give me PD or STUN or REC, so I have to buy them up separately if I want them? Ugh, I'll just not take the Limitation and give it a special effect that allows for such things. STUN alone already loses you more points than you gained by not taking No Figured Characteristics, if you want it.

 

Well, I'm not going to dismiss what you say. We all have different gaming experiences and perhaps my style just fell into synch with this particular issue so it didn't get annoying. There's probably a few things that bug me that were never a problem for you and your players. Thanks for the thought out and civil response.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I have not read everything said on this thread, I say this as a disclaimor if I am repeating what someone else has said.

 

In a way we are not loosing figured characteristics however. Unified Power (I think is what it is called) can be used to save points on characteristics if it is conceptualy part of the character. So your brick will be able to buy his Str, Armor, Rec, Stun, etc... all with a -1/4 lim to represent that it is all one ability (I'm TOUGH)

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

In a way we are not loosing figured characteristics however. Unified Power (I think is what it is called) can be used to save points on characteristics if it is conceptualy part of the character. So your brick will be able to buy his Str' date=' Armor, Rec, Stun, etc... all with a -1/4 lim to represent that it is all one ability (I'm TOUGH)[/quote']

 

Sort of: Unified Power causes things to be Drained as a unit (or something like that, I know I saw something to that effect on this thread), while Figured Characteristics aren't Drained when their Primaries are.

 

No more free cost breaks. In one way, I'll miss them, but then, if I want a cost break for something I can always put it in.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well' date=' I'm not going to dismiss what you say. We all have different gaming experiences and perhaps my style just fell into synch with this particular issue so it didn't get annoying. There's probably a few things that bug me that were never a problem for you and your players. Thanks for the thought out and civil response.[/quote']

 

Well, really, this isn't a matter of my experience: I'm talking about the only objective thing about it, that, on paper Figured Characteristics give you a big ol' cost break that No Figured doesn't actually fully refund. I've long argued that this is illusory, that the perception of getting too many points back is because they are not priced correctly (or, at least, offset well by everyone else getting EC's), but there you go. I've personally never had any of these things break the game, though I admit I've just let people get away with not taking No Figured and come up with an explanation if it was necessary to be effective.

 

I sometimes forget to mark which are my concerns, and which are problems that I've seen expressed. I don't sit on the fence, I bounce over it like a tennis ball. :)

 

The benefit to me is actually the subjective points, not the mathematical one. I've actually presented ideas of just starting characters completely from scratch, too, because that is often going to give me some benefit. I don't think that's useful to the game as a whole, though. I think the math of it is more to my liking, but like I said, if that were all of the benefits to me, I wouldn't find it desirable (see: baby and bath water comment :)

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well' date=' really, this isn't a matter of [i']my[/i] experience: I'm talking about the only objective thing about it, that, on paper Figured Characteristics give you a big ol' cost break that No Figured doesn't actually fully refund. I've long argued that this is illusory, that the perception of getting too many points back is because they are not priced correctly (or, at least, offset well by everyone else getting EC's), but there you go. I've personally never had any of these things break the game, though I admit I've just let people get away with not taking No Figured and come up with an explanation if it was necessary to be effective.

 

That's the thing. I've never ran into a situation where it was nessescary. Either no one made up the sort of characters were it comes up or they found away around it (PA character either didn't take it, got their "figured" OIF or didn't muss with them as it wasn't to come concept for example). I suppose it could have just been luck or ignorance but in any case dropping them is more a hassle for me that keeping them. I can understand it's the opposite for some but that's where I stand on it and it's a reason not to switch for me. Totally subjective as it is.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I sometimes forget to mark which are my concerns' date=' and which are problems that I've seen expressed. I don't sit on the fence, I bounce over it like a tennis ball. :)[/quote']

 

Perhaps this might be rephrased "I try to examine all sides of the issue with an objective state of mind."

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Perhaps this might be rephrased "I try to examine all sides of the issue with an objective state of mind."

 

That's very generous of you :) Usually the case, but sometimes I get caught up in the moment like most people. It's just random what side I'll be on when that happens.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

The basic 3d6-roll-for-success mechanic remains, and it will continue to be "roll-low."

 

>No problem, i will keep using a 2d-2d roll high method

 

No changes to the Speed Chart.

 

>Good

 

 

Movement will continue to be measured per Phase.

 

>ok

 

 

All measurements will be given in meters. There will be no use of "hexes" or any other mapping arrangement in 6E.

 

>Very good !!

 

 

Comeliness will no longer be one of the Characteristics. It's being replaced with an optional Talent, Striking Appearance.

 

>Good idea

 

 

All the other Characteristics will remain, but none of them will be "Figured," i.e. derived from other Characteristics. They'll all start with a base value that must be bought up separately. The costs of some of them have been "tweaked" -- no further details yet.

&

 

OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics, not derived from DEX and EGO. They'll start with a base value of 3 and will be bought up separately.

 

&

 

Leaping will no longer be derived from Strength -- it will start at a base amount for all characters, as with Running and Swimming.

 

 

>That makes sense with the "you pay for what you get" philosophy.

 

 

You will be able to apply your Normal Defenses to the STUN damage of a Killing Attack whether you have any Resistant Defenses or not.

 

hm ? ok, we'll see...

 

 

The method of Adding Damage is supposed to be simplified -- no further details yet.

 

oh yes !!!! Thanks !!! The current version is a nightmare :)

 

 

I wonder.....if OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics and there will be no figured stats then why STR should add to damage ? (i mean, because of the "you pay for what you get" principle)

It would not be illogical (following this principle) that: you pay for a base of damage and you improve it with maneuvers and that's all.

 

 

The Multipower and VPP Frameworks will remain, but Elemental Control is being replaced by a new Limitation, Unified Power.

 

Seems to be a nice idea

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Doc sez...

 

Having had to step back from open activity in gaming for the past 2 years (new job...new son...new life in Tacoma, Wa...) I have missed all of the formative discussion over the anticipated 6th Ed. . I'm trying to slog through the massive backlog of posting. Please forgive me if you may have already heard what I'm going to be posting here and elsewhere, but I wanted to catch up on comments about the RPG I've loved for almost 30 years :eek:.

------------

*The basic 3d6-roll-for-success mechanic remains, and it will continue to be "roll-low."

 

Glad for no changes here. Often Gaming Systems gain part of their identity and individuality from this most basic of resolution systems feature.

 

*No changes to the Speed Chart.

 

Good. Never had any real problems with it.

 

*Movement will continue to be measured per Phase.

 

OK. I've created an option House Rule for my games on occasions called the Segmented Movement System which conducts movement and actions on a segment by segment basis. Its best effects are to create smoother movement and keep players in the action every segment.

 

*All measurements will be given in meters. There will be no use of "hexes" or any other mapping arrangement in 6E.

 

OK. I'll miss "Hexes" and "Inches", and the use of hex paper in the official system for mapping, but I'll likely still use hex paper in home games.

 

*Comeliness will no longer be one of the Characteristics. It's being replaced with a Talent, Striking Appearance, which a given group can choose to use in their game if they want a character's appearance to have a mechanical effect.

 

Poor Comeliness. It was never a well understood or applied Stat. I think I would have like to seen it reformed rather than eliminated in the official rules. The switching of its "effects" to a Talent mirrors something I adopted (along with a similar Physical Advantage: Terrifying). I'll likely retain the House Rule system I developed in Home games.

 

*All the other Characteristics will remain, but none of them will be "Figured," i.e. derived from other Characteristics. They'll all start with a base value that must be bought up separately. The costs of some of them have been "tweaked" -- no further details yet.

 

Can't say I like this change, but understand it perfectly for the sake of granularity (although I oppose too much granularity). It seems a loss of a distinctive part of the system. The trend for uncoupling stats from other stats (and possibly other game functions) needs to be closely monitored unless stats become completely meaningless.

Costs will need to well adjusted if too much is drained from their function. I'd loathe to see them become a bland "1 for 1" cost.

 

*OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics, not derived from DEX and EGO. They'll start with a base value of 3 and will be bought up separately.

 

Bad Idea and a glaring example of "granularity" sapping the identity out of the Hero Game System. I see "1 stat point per 1 character point" vanilla stats coming down the road. What is left for DEX other than Initiative use?

 

*Suggested starting point totals will be raised to compensate for the change to Characteristics -- no specifics yet.

 

No real thoughts about this until we see the new costs for STATs, Skills, etc. Long ago I used to ask players to retire PCs who were built on a 1000 CPs, now I may have to consider asking them to start at that amount :rolleyes:.

 

*Perception will still be based on INT.

 

A step back from the potential brink. I guess a case could be made for uncoupling PER rolls from INT too for granularity's sake, but it would only make it easier to consider jettisoning INT as a STAT too.

 

*Leaping will no longer be derived from Strength -- it will start at a base amount for all characters, as with Running and Swimming.

 

More effects of granularity. If other apparent "muscle-powered" movement types are not connected to STR, why should LEAP be tied to it? I really do understand the appeal of granularity, but too much uncoupling of stat and abilities may derail the "game train" and create unwanted loss of System Identity :(.

 

*Skills will still be calculated from CHAR/5, but there will be an optional "Toolkitting" note about changing that if desired. Other Toolkitting notes will appear throughout the rules -- no further details on those.

 

:straight:. Another potential step away from the brink, although the optional "Toolkitting" certainly clears the potential for stat-less skills :nonp:.

 

*Seduction Skill will be renamed Charm.

 

:confused:. Whatever.

 

*No new Skills will be added, although a couple have been "tweaked" (no more details yet).

 

I'll have to see more of the "tweaking" before comment.

 

*Package Deal will be renamed Template

 

More importantly than an acceptable name change will be what mechanical changes might occur.

 

*Some new Powers have been added, and others have been removed. The only one mentioned is Find Weakness, which is being removed. There will be no official way to reduce Defenses below 1/2 as with Armor Piercing.

 

No real comment till more specifics are made available (leaked ;)). Loss of FW is a blow to some character concepts, but so was not being able to reduce the targeted DEF by more than 1/2. Thank Heaven for House Rulings.

 

*Adjustment Powers have been significantly reworked -- no further details yet.

 

Another wait till we read more about (another) change to the rules of ADJ Powers.

 

*Energy Blast and Killing Attack will still be separate forms of Damage, as they are in 5E.

 

ok.

 

*The Stun Multiplier for Killing Attack will become a straight 1/2d6. It will still be possible to buy up the Stun Multiplier with Advantages.

 

:straight:. It takes some of the seriousness out of KAs. But I've found that the players were more ticked about potential for BOD damage than to STUN.

 

*You will be able to apply your Normal Defenses to the STUN damage of a Killing Attack whether you have any Resistant Defenses or not.

 

KAs take another hit to their seriousness. I never liked the idea of some rDEF letting all nDEF resist kSTUN.

 

*Nothing has changed about the way STR adds to Hand-To-Hand Killling Attack damage.

 

Another step back.

 

*Increased reach for larger-than-normal beings and weapons will not necessarily require Stretching -- no further details yet.

 

House ruled this ages ago. I use REACH Adv to powers to let power (and certain abilities) to extend into successive adjacent hexes (oops that will need to be adjusted now).

 

*The method of Adding Damage is supposed to be simplified -- no further details yet.

 

No comment until more info.

 

*The Multipower and VPP Frameworks will remain, but Elemental Control is being replaced by a new Limitation, Unified Power (no value given). Aside from GM oversight there will be no restrictions on what Unified Power can be applied to.

 

I'll have to see where this UP goes.

 

*Damage Shield is going to be "different" -- no details yet.

 

Ditto

 

*There will be another, more granular way to make a Power ECV-targeted than using the BOECV Advantage. No specifics given, but it involves breaking the Advantage into its separate components (i.e. ECV Attack Roll, Line Of Sight, etc.) and "reassembling" them to make them more flexible (and simpler according to Steve). Steve implied that he's used this approach for other elements of the system.

 

:confused:. OK let's get more info on this. Someone grab Steve and get the thumbscrews ;).

 

*Disadvantages are being renamed Complications, and Psychological Limitations will become Psychological Complications.

 

Whatever.

 

*There will be a single index, printed in both 6E rulebooks, with a letter code before each number to indicate which book it refers to.

 

Sigh. There had better be if we get the rule spread more than one book.

------

 

Just some quick thoughts. I'll have more later here and in other threads.

 

Doc Tough

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

*All the other Characteristics will remain, but none of them will be "Figured," i.e. derived from other Characteristics. They'll all start with a base value that must be bought up separately. The costs of some of them have been "tweaked" -- no further details yet.

 

Can't say I like this change, but understand it perfectly for the sake of granularity (although I oppose too much granularity). It seems a loss of a distinctive part of the system. The trend for uncoupling stats from other stats (and possibly other game functions) needs to be closely monitored unless stats become completely meaningless.

Costs will need to well adjusted if too much is drained from their function. I'd loathe to see them become a bland "1 for 1" cost.

 

*OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics, not derived from DEX and EGO. They'll start with a base value of 3 and will be bought up separately.

 

Bad Idea and a glaring example of "granularity" sapping the identity out of the Hero Game System. I see "1 stat point per 1 character point" vanilla stats coming down the road. What is left for DEX other than Initiative use?

 

 

In essence hundred RPGs use some kind of figured stats or derived values.

IMHO the "you pay for what you get" principle is the very real identity of Hero, the one which protects him from the need to be physicaly accurate. (see for instance Leaping which will no longer be figured from STR. So there is no more need to wonder if it's realistic or nor to be able to leap x meters with STR y. You pay for x meters so you get it, whatever your STR. If you want realism so pay for it. I like this simple idea)

 

Thus figured stats and CVs are only artifact of the past, the last who break this principle and it seems logical to get rid of them.

 

Then the last artifact will be damage added from STR....

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