6E Rules changes confirmed so far

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

You have a point. It may be a matter of perspective, and of course we haven't seen the finished product yet.

 

But when I consider that we're dropping a Framework, dropping and adding Characteristics, redefining some Characteristics pretty fundamentally....I still think this has to count as a bigger change than the change to 4th edition.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Riding a palindromedary up and down a cliff.

 

BTW that's a framework that has literally changed with each edition of the game ever published!

 

Tasha

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

But it seems kind of piecemeal. It's as if the issue was considered

totally in isolation from the Adding Damage spaghetti monster, the 50%

discrepency in cost between Non- and Resistant Defense (which if

anything is exacerbated by this solution because it makes Non-Resistant

Defense more effective,) or the question of how to reconcile the cost of

STR, Telekinesis, Hand to Hand vs Ranged Normal Attacks, and Hand to

Hand vs Ranged Killing Attacks, in such a way that they all make sense.

 

Believe me, it wasn't. The discussion in SETAC went on for weeks about it. We all (particularly ghost-angel) got sick of it. There were a lot of factors to consider, and it sucked. We pretty much went with the solution we all hated least and that met Steve's criteria.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I think this is an issue in games where STR can enhance the damage of weaponry the characters pay no points for' date=' while anyone using a non-STR mechanic has to pay full points for everything. Fantasy games, in particular, have this issue.[/quote']

 

 

I always saw that as a balancing point for the otherwise overly-powered magical types who are slinging around 40+ AP powers in combat.

[Netzilla]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I think this is an issue in games where STR can enhance the damage of weaponry the characters pay no points for' date=' while anyone using a non-STR mechanic has to pay full points for everything. Fantasy games, in particular, have this issue.[/quote']I always saw that as a balancing point for the otherwise overly-powered magical types who are slinging around 40+ AP powers in combat.

 

Even that depends on the FH game. Not all campaigns allow mages to utilize 40+ AP powers with anything close to ease (see the Valdorian Age for an example).

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I know that this goes against the conventional wisdom on the boards' date=' but Fuzion was a good ruleset. They did a ton of things right with the rules. I think that it gets a bum rap because it was 1) too large of a change 2) and the superpowers rules were totally incomplete.[/quote']

3) The fusion of Hero and Mekton rules wasn't complete: Choice between 3d6 and 2d10, meters/yards, etc., rather than settling on a single option.

 

But overall, I thought the rules seemed good for non-supers games - and I have seen some rather good games based on Fuzion and Fuzion Light.

 

- Klaus

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

You have a point. It may be a matter of perspective, and of course we haven't seen the finished product yet.

 

But when I consider that we're dropping a Framework, dropping and adding Characteristics, redefining some Characteristics pretty fundamentally....I still think this has to count as a bigger change than the change to 4th edition.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Riding a palindromedary up and down a cliff.

 

4th editon did the following:

• Redefined how END and Reduced END worked.
  
• Redefined and repriced the Skill list
  
• Introduced Perks and Talents -- Find Weakness and Danger Sense were moved to Talents and redefined slightly. Luck was also moved to Talents.
  
• Changed how Mental Powers worked
  
• Introduced the concept of Sense Groups and expanded sense-affecting Powers accordingly.
  
• Expanded adjustment Powers to work against Special Effects
  
• Changed the list of disadvantages available, recosted them, and removed the halving of points received after the first two disads in a character (and quartering after first four).
  
• Removed Healing, Mental Paralysis, Piercing, Power Destruction, Presence Defense, and Reflection as Powers
  
• Incorporated and redefined Aid, Clairsentience, Summon, and Suppress from Fantasy Hero.
  
• Added New Powers: Change Environment, END Reserve, Extra-Dimensional Movement, Hand-to-Hand Attack, and Mind Link.
  
• Redefined and/or repriced many Powers: Absorption (formerly Energy Absorption), Armor, Damage Resistance, Density Increase, Duplication, Enhanced Senses, Extra Limbs, Flash, Flash Defense, Growth, Images (formerly Light Illusions), Life Support, Missile Deflection & Reflection (formerly Missile Deflection), Multiform, Regeneration, Shape Shift, Telekinesis, and Transform (formerly Transformation Attack)
  
• Renamed many Powers
  
• plus many other changes
  

[ideasmith]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

4th editon did the following:

• .....
  
• Removed Healing, Mental Paralysis, Piercing, Power Destruction, Presence Defense, and Reflection as Powers
  
• .....
  

 

I would distinguish between removing a Power Basis and merging it with another Power Basis, since I am opposed to the former and in favor of the latter (if done well). Healing, Power Destruction, Presence Defense and Reflection were merged with Aid, Drain, Characteristics, and Missile Deflection respectively.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

4th editon did the following:

• Redefined how END and Reduced END worked.
  
• Redefined and repriced the Skill list
  
• Introduced Perks and Talents -- Find Weakness and Danger Sense were moved to Talents and redefined slightly. Luck was also moved to Talents.
  
• Changed how Mental Powers worked
  
• Introduced the concept of Sense Groups and expanded sense-affecting Powers accordingly.
  
• Expanded adjustment Powers to work against Special Effects
  
• Changed the list of disadvantages available, recosted them, and removed the halving of points received after the first two disads in a character (and quartering after first four).
  
• Removed Healing, Mental Paralysis, Piercing, Power Destruction, Presence Defense, and Reflection as Powers
  
• Incorporated and redefined Aid, Clairsentience, Summon, and Suppress from Fantasy Hero.
  
• Added New Powers: Change Environment, END Reserve, Extra-Dimensional Movement, Hand-to-Hand Attack, and Mind Link.
  
• Redefined and/or repriced many Powers: Absorption (formerly Energy Absorption), Armor, Damage Resistance, Density Increase, Duplication, Enhanced Senses, Extra Limbs, Flash, Flash Defense, Growth, Images (formerly Light Illusions), Life Support, Missile Deflection & Reflection (formerly Missile Deflection), Multiform, Regeneration, Shape Shift, Telekinesis, and Transform (formerly Transformation Attack)
  
• Renamed many Powers
  
• plus many other changes
  

 

4th edition was the first big merging of the various rules variants from the various Genre books. (ie Fantasy Hero, Justice Inc, Danger International). It also marked the first time that the Hero System Rules were marketed in a book that didn't include Champions. So the changes were expected to be sweeping in their scope.

 

It was funny, I don't remember being that upset by the changes. Even though they made my character MUCH more expensive.

 

Tasha

[The Main Man]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Come to think of it, I don't think that character cost inflation is really that big a deal as long as the things that they purchase are proportionate.

 

 

In any case, just reading about all of those changes wrought from 3e to 4e makes me feel young.

[GamePhil]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

4th editon did the following:

 

Well, as far as which is the bigger change, you're talking a matter of perspective. If you don't believe the 6E changes are more radical than the changes you site, then 4E was a greater change, but if you consider the 6E changes to be tampering with the core of the game, it trumps everything you just wrote and more. I personally agree with the former rather than the latter, but it's not hard to understand someone considering it to be a bigger change.

 

Personally, I consider 4E to be a greater change because it was the transition between Champions, a superhero game with spin-offs for other genres, and Hero, a universal game system, rather than because of specific changes.

[Lucius]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

4th editon did the following:

 

Point taken, I'd forgotten that 4th edition made such major changes.

 

Until we see the whole thing, we can't really compare.

I was arguing ahead of the available evidence.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Insert mandatory palindromedary tagline here.

[phookz]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

We pretty much went with the solution we all hated least and that met Steve's criteria.

 

That's a little scary. I hope what we finally see is not something that most people hate the least, but something that a majority of the people actually like.

[NestorDRod]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

4th edition was the first big merging of the various rules variants from the various Genre books. (ie Fantasy Hero, Justice Inc, Danger International). It also marked the first time that the Hero System Rules were marketed in a book that didn't include Champions. So the changes were expected to be sweeping in their scope.

 

And that's a factor to consider when comparing the transitions. A number of those changes listed for the 4th Edition already existed, but on the specific genre books.

 

4th Edition simply combined the genre-specific rules into one homogeneous self-consistent set and made the jump to a "universal" system, for better or worse.

 

It was funny, I don't remember being that upset by the changes. Even though they made my character MUCH more expensive.

 

Tasha

 

Well, I know in my case I was already doing mash-ups of rules between the books for my own games, so having the system properly merge the various mechanics overrode any concern about character changes.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

4th editon did the following:

• Added New Powers: Change Environment, END Reserve, Extra-Dimensional Movement, Hand-to-Hand Attack, and Mind Link

I can't find my 3e rules, but wasn't there a form of END Reserve in them? I seem to recall something that had a fixed ratio between END and REC - which at any rate would be a better idea than the current mess.

 

Another change was that in 3e, non-combat multipliers for movement powers were calculated from the active cost - the greater the power, the higher the multiple. There was also a "Stalling" limitation for Flight, where you couldn't go below 1/4 top speed (or some such) without stalling.

 

I wonder, if there had been a forum to discuss the changes from 3e to 4e, how much resistance would there have been to the changes?

 

- Klaus

[Vondy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I know that this goes against the conventional wisdom on the boards' date=' but Fuzion was a good ruleset. They did a ton of things right with the rules. I think that it gets a bum rap because it was 1) too large of a change 2) and the superpowers rules were totally incomplete.[/quote']

 

It also lacked a clear, organized presentation. It was solid conceptually, though.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

There are extended versions of the powers rules for fuzion on the web. There's even an extended version of the DBZ Instant Fuzion variant rules out there.

I will echo that it did some things really well and that it was clearly simpler and easier to learn, but it was poorly organized, possibly less granular, and there were some hinky things with certain mechanics like killing attacks that I'm sure drove HS devotees nuts.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I can't find my 3e rules' date=' but wasn't there a form of END Reserve in them? I seem to recall something that had a fixed ratio between END and REC - which at any rate would be a better idea than the current mess.[/quote']

 

I believe there was an END battery power, although I don't recall a fixed ratio of END and REC, and my timing could be off. I also remember back to very old editions when having a fixed amount of what was basically an END reserve was a limitation on a power. 16 charges or 8x END Battery were both -0 limitations, and the levels of limitation paralleled each other, with the END battery always having END to go to full power for half the number of charges.

 

Another change was that in 3e' date=' non-combat multipliers for movement powers were calculated from the active cost - the greater the power, the higher the multiple. There was also a "Stalling" limitation for Flight, where you couldn't go below 1/4 top speed (or some such) without stalling.[/quote']

 

As I recall, Flight had noncombat computed as a multipler based on active cost, but the other movement powers were 2x Noncombat. As I recall, Stall Speed was a vehicle rule only.

[Markdoc]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I think this is an issue in games where STR can enhance the damage of weaponry the characters pay no points for' date=' while anyone using a non-STR mechanic has to pay full points for everything. Fantasy games, in particular, have this issue.[/quote']

 

Actually, most of these games were superheroic, though there was one fantasy game.

 

- Klaus

 

My experience has been the same as Klaus', though most of the games I run myself have been FH, pulp or SciFi.

 

One of the things in the great STR debate* which has always puzzled me is that people say that the cost of STR is to some extent balanced out by power frameworks, but that's always made me go "What? Your bricks don't have power frameworks?"

 

If you played in a gaming group where bricks usually didn't have frameworks, that might account for the different perspective - but I think I've only ever played one brick who didn't have a framework (and he had OIHD, which is like having everything in a framework!) - or use foci, or similar. The same was true for the rest of the players in the groups I've played with.

 

Cheers,Mark

 

*It looks like 6E, by breaking Figureds away, has finally laid the great STR debate to rest.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Point taken, I'd forgotten that 4th edition made such major changes.

 

Until we see the whole thing, we can't really compare.

I was arguing ahead of the available evidence.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Insert mandatory palindromedary tagline here.

 

 

I still clearly remember the sense of excitement that came with reading 4e the first time - there was much that was very cool indeed.

 

I'm guessing I'm going to feel the same about 6e - given what I've seen so far.

[Markdoc]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well' date=' I know in my case I was already doing mash-ups of rules between the books for my own games, so having the system properly merge the various mechanics overrode any concern about character changes. [/quote']

 

Yeah, me too. When 4E. came out I did the happy hamster dance of glee just at the thought of not having sources drawn from multiple, slightly incompatible rules sets.

 

cheers, Mark

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

And that's a factor to consider when comparing the transitions. A number of those changes listed for the 4th Edition already existed, but on the specific genre books.

 

4th Edition simply combined the genre-specific rules into one homogeneous self-consistent set and made the jump to a "universal" system, for better or worse.

 

 

 

Well, I know in my case I was already doing mash-ups of rules between the books for my own games, so having the system properly merge the various mechanics overrode any concern about character changes.

 

 

I tried to account for things that were borrowed from various "heroic" games when I created the list of changes. I would appreciate if you could point out where I listed somehting as new that in fact came from one of the other games (and I didn't acknowledge it

). I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like a clear list.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

4th editon did the following:

• Redefined how END and Reduced END worked.
  
• Redefined and repriced the Skill list
  
• Introduced Perks and Talents -- Find Weakness and Danger Sense were moved to Talents and redefined slightly. Luck was also moved to Talents.
  
• Changed how Mental Powers worked
  
• Introduced the concept of Sense Groups and expanded sense-affecting Powers accordingly.
  
• Expanded adjustment Powers to work against Special Effects
  
• Changed the list of disadvantages available, recosted them, and removed the halving of points received after the first two disads in a character (and quartering after first four).
  
• Removed Healing, Mental Paralysis, Piercing, Power Destruction, Presence Defense, and Reflection as Powers
  
• Incorporated and redefined Aid, Clairsentience, Summon, and Suppress from Fantasy Hero.
  
• Added New Powers: Change Environment, END Reserve, Extra-Dimensional Movement, Hand-to-Hand Attack, and Mind Link.
  
• Redefined and/or repriced many Powers: Absorption (formerly Energy Absorption), Armor, Damage Resistance, Density Increase, Duplication, Enhanced Senses, Extra Limbs, Flash, Flash Defense, Growth, Images (formerly Light Illusions), Life Support, Missile Deflection & Reflection (formerly Missile Deflection), Multiform, Regeneration, Shape Shift, Telekinesis, and Transform (formerly Transformation Attack)
  
• Renamed many Powers
  
• plus many other changes
  

 

 

Martial Arts rules were a major change from Champs 3rd Ed., and even from Danger International and Justice Inc.

[NestorDRod]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I tried to account for things that were borrowed from various "heroic" games when I created the list of changes. I would appreciate if you could point out where I listed somehting as new that in fact came from one of the other games (and I didn't acknowledge it

). I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like a clear list.

 

Sure. I'll need to dig out my old books to cross-check and refresh the memory banks, but I can provide the info if you so desire.

 

I based my comment on my memory of using a lot of stuff from Danger International and Star Hero, for instance, in our games, then seeing the stuff in the 4E book when it came out. So I don't have a delineated list of items right off the top of my head, but I'm confident I can put one together with a little research.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I still think Followers, Bases, Vehicles and Computers could be folded up into a single perk, which would clean up character sheets and make Batman/Doc Savage/Iron Man type characters (those with all the trappings of veteran, resourceful heroes--sidekicks, computers, bases, vehicles, robot duplicates, etc.) easier/cheaper to writeup, with a cleaner-looking character sheet.

 

What I'm undecided about, should I decide to house rule such a mod into existence, is what to name it. "Trappings" is the term I'm currently thinking of.

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Martial Arts rules were a major change from Champs 3rd Ed.' date=' and even from Danger International and Justice Inc.[/quote']

 

Okay, I see DI and JI as basically having similar Martial Arts as 4th ed. What do do you see as so different to constitute a major change?