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Lord Liaden

6E Rules changes confirmed so far

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

150 points is an optional guideline for the maximum number of disads you can take. I have had several players opt to take less than this value. It has also been common in our group to allow a lesser amount for the high end. For instance instead of playing 200 + 150 disads, we would do something like 250+100 or even 275 + 75. The idea being that fewer well-played disads are better than a bunch that do not enter play as often. Of course our group is eight players so individual disads don't get tapped as often by the GM when having to run that big a circus.

 

Understood. The point of having the suggestion changed in the core rulebook is that you're not always the GM, and more often than not, if you game with a group online, the GM will simply use whatever the default value listed in the book is.

 

I probably won't run an ongoing game of 6th, but will likely set up a short online game to playtest the rules. If I do, I'll be using whatever the defaults are, since it will essentially be a play test campaign.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

See I can't understand that. I dislike a few of the announced changes, but at the same time I haven't seen them implemented or how they'll be done. If it is true that the alternate framework can be used to re connect figured characteristics and that can be done easily with the same results, effectively that change will have been negated for me. And I can always use Comeliness anyway, just because the book ignores it doesn't mean it can't be put in any games.

 

Its too soon to make any sort of declarations about the system or its changes. I'll be getting the book and then we'll see. Nothing about this smacks of the absurd deconstruction and MMOG-ification of D&D, for example.

 

This I also can't understand much. Secondary Characteristics are staying, they are just losing their links to the Primary Characteristics. Point values are being increased to make up for the loss of that linkage. So I see it as a basic net neutral.

 

The only "bad" part of the whole thing is that noobs will have to know what is a good minimum for both Rec, Stun and End. PD, ED and SPD are usually bought up anyways. As are all of the CV values.

 

So our Char lineup will be Str, Dex, Con, Body, Int, Ego, Pre. Then Secondaries as OCV, DCV, OECV, DECV, PD, ED, SPD, REC, END, STUN. They are all going to be there. Just no one but Steve and the Mysterioius Council currently knows how much everything is going to cost. It may be that cost changes (not announced yet AFAIK) in the Primaries will make up for the loss of Secondary Chars being Figured from the Primary Chars. We will have to wait for GenCon to know for sure.

 

I am ambivalent to this change, but my GF who is a Hero Neophyte thinks the change is positive and less messy than the old system.

 

Tasha

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I disagree. My group of 12 Champions characters has 1' date='800 points in Disads for my to choose from. My adventures write themselves, really.[/quote']

 

Ok. So, do you use the Frequency rolls? Not necessarily as rolls, but do things come up fairly regularly for all 12 characters according to the level of Disadvantage they took?

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that Disadvantages are there to fill out the characters' backgrounds. However, if you actually adhere to the idea that the things are used with the frequency given, then you either end up disregarding that rule anyway or being ruled by the Disadvantages. I'm sure there are exceptions, and I know you're a creative guy, so you probably are one of those exceptions, but for the average GM, having umpteen billion points of Disadvantages to adjudicate isn't necessarily a good thing.

 

Also, not all plot hooks have to be expressed on the Disadvantages section of the character sheet. Plenty of background fluff that's crammed into a Disadvantage could serve just as well in the Background section of the sheet.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Understood. The point of having the suggestion changed in the core rulebook is that you're not always the GM, and more often than not, if you game with a group online, the GM will simply use whatever the default value listed in the book is.

 

I probably won't run an ongoing game of 6th, but will likely set up a short online game to playtest the rules. If I do, I'll be using whatever the defaults are, since it will essentially be a play test campaign.

 

I'll probably do a short story Champions game to test the new rules. Then I'll probably convert my Urban Fantasy game to the new system to try it out in a normals game.

 

That's usually how we playtest a new system

 

Tasha

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Ok. So, do you use the Frequency rolls? Not necessarily as rolls, but do things come up fairly regularly for all 12 characters according to the level of Disadvantage they took?

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that Disadvantages are there to fill out the characters' backgrounds. However, if you actually adhere to the idea that the things are used with the frequency given, then you either end up disregarding that rule anyway or being ruled by the Disadvantages. I'm sure there are exceptions, and I know you're a creative guy, so you probably are one of those exceptions, but for the average GM, having umpteen billion points of Disadvantages to adjudicate isn't necessarily a good thing.

 

Also, not all plot hooks have to be expressed on the Disadvantages section of the character sheet. Plenty of background fluff that's crammed into a Disadvantage could serve just as well in the Background section of the sheet.

 

I would imagine he takes the "frequency rolls' as a guideline as to how often that hunted/watched complicates the PC's life.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I would imagine he takes the "frequency rolls' as a guideline as to how often that hunted/watched complicates the PC's life.

 

And I'd imagine that if he used everything at the frequencies given, that his games would be overrun with dealing with those disadvantages. I've never seen a GM use the actual frequencies in a game at the level laid out in the rules.

 

Think of it this way: He has 12 players. If each of them has two disadvantages with just an 11- frequency, which is a bit over half the time, then he's got 12 disadvantages in play, having an impact on the characters, every session. Now, I'm a fan of Mattingly's work, and maybe he could do that and make it look organic to the plot, but I'm betting he doesn't actually follow the frequencies that closely.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

If folk have a ton of Hunted I do my best to try to link as many hunteds together so they are more managable. Either by having them in an Organization or by being divisions of the same organization. Whatever it takes.

 

Also, I rarely have more than an 8- Hunter my Watcheds can be higher as those are just keeping track of the character until they do something wrong.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I think some of the opposition or dismay again comes from how this preview was handled. If before 5th edition came out, someone posted from a chat these tidbits:

 

-Aid costs twice as much

-Damage Shield requires continuous to stay on

 

-Regeneration is no longer a power

-Instant Change is gone as a power

-Both are now folded into complex rule-bending constructs under Transform and Healing

 

People would have been pretty dismayed too... because its out of context to all the other stuff 5th edition brought us that made people go oh cool! Some might have been happy, some might have even said "wow" but would most? The reactions, I suspect, would have been often quite negative, with some even just deciding they'd pass. So far, what we've been given isn't a very tasty preview, for many players. For some its so frustrating or annoying they've vowed not to even buy the new edition.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

If folk have a ton of Hunted I do my best to try to link as many hunteds together so they are more managable. Either by having them in an Organization or by being divisions of the same organization. Whatever it takes.

 

Also, I rarely have more than an 8- Hunter my Watcheds can be higher as those are just keeping track of the character until they do something wrong.

 

Hunteds aren't the only things with frequencies, though a lot of builds stack up three or more on a character to make up the Disads total... which is a sign of a problem right there. I'm inclined to limit Hunteds to two, with one of them being a common group Hunted.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I think some of the opposition or dismay again comes from how this preview was handled. If before 5th edition came out, someone posted from a chat these tidbits:

 

-Aid costs twice as much

-Damage Shield requires continuous to stay on

 

-Regeneration is no longer a power

-Instant Change is gone as a power

-Both are now folded into complex rule-bending constructs under Transform and Healing

 

People would have been pretty dismayed too... because its out of context to all the other stuff 5th edition brought us that made people go oh cool! Some might have been happy, some might have even said "wow" but would most? The reactions, I suspect, would have been often quite negative, with some even just deciding they'd pass. So far, what we've been given isn't a very tasty preview, for many players. For some its so frustrating or annoying they've vowed not to even buy the new edition.

 

I haven't regarded any of it as a preview so much as Steve chatting with board members and some confirmed stuff coming down to us through the forum.

 

I don't know if Steve's even far enough along with the project to give an actual substantial preview yet. I'd expect something along the lines of a press release or website announcement as far as a preview goes. Anything else, even confirmed by Steve, I'll take as tentative till the thing goes to press.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I think some of the opposition or dismay again comes from how this preview was handled. If before 5th edition came out, someone posted from a chat these tidbits:

 

-Aid costs twice as much

-Damage Shield requires continuous to stay on

 

-Regeneration is no longer a power

-Instant Change is gone as a power

-Both are now folded into complex rule-bending constructs under Transform and Healing

 

People would have been pretty dismayed too... because its out of context to all the other stuff 5th edition brought us that made people go oh cool! Some might have been happy, some might have even said "wow" but would most? The reactions, I suspect, would have been often quite negative, with some even just deciding they'd pass. So far, what we've been given isn't a very tasty preview, for many players. For some its so frustrating or annoying they've vowed not to even buy the new edition.

 

IIRC the Forums were quite negative on those changes (and still are for the most part) It just happened after the rules were published.

 

Though Aid's cost being doubled was actually liked, because Aid was a bit out of control in 4th ed.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Personally I have decided against buying 6E since most of the announced changes are very much disliked by me.
I don't dislike all of them by any means. That having been said, I also see few thus revealed changes I like better than 5ER. Nobody in my gaming group is enthused by the changes announced and several actively dislike some announced changes, so I've got no real reason to switch to 6E. As I said during the 6E discussions, Steve Long was his own worst competition.

 

I'll almost certainly buy 6E eventually (at least in PDF), but I'm in no hurry and see almost no chance our group will ever adopt it.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

This I also can't understand much. Secondary Characteristics are staying' date=' they are just losing their links to the Primary Characteristics. Point values are being increased to make up for the loss of that linkage. So I see it as a basic net neutral.[/quote']

 

I think that's the general idea. In the chat where Steve revealed these chances, he repeated several time, "The idea here isn't to weaken characters, it's to make HERO better."

 

The only "bad" part of the whole thing is that noobs will have to know what is a good minimum for both Rec, Stun and End. PD, ED and SPD are usually bought up anyways. As are all of the CV values.

 

I'm sure that the rulebook will have advice on this.

 

So our Char lineup will be Str, Dex, Con, Body, Int, Ego, Pre. Then Secondaries as OCV, DCV, OECV, DECV, PD, ED, SPD, REC, END, STUN. They are all going to be there. Just no one but Steve and the Mysterioius Council currently knows how much everything is going to cost. It may be that cost changes (not announced yet AFAIK) in the Primaries will make up for the loss of Secondary Chars being Figured from the Primary Chars. We will have to wait for GenCon to know for sure.

 

I don't think cost changes in the primaries can totally make up for the decoupling of Figureds, and that combined with the 4 new characteristics almost certain means that you'll more points to reach the same Characteristic levels as in 5th.

 

I am ambivalent to this change, but my GF who is a Hero Neophyte thinks the change is positive and less messy than the old system.

 

Tasha

 

I think your GF is right.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I haven't regarded any of it as a preview so much as Steve chatting with board members and some confirmed stuff coming down to us through the forum.

 

I don't know if Steve's even far enough along with the project to give an actual substantial preview yet. I'd expect something along the lines of a press release or website announcement as far as a preview goes. Anything else, even confirmed by Steve, I'll take as tentative till the thing goes to press.

 

Here is Steve's progress report from today's update on the home page:

On the
Sixth Edition
front, good news to report: I’ve finished my first pass through the manuscript! I’m now reading back through to double-check things, make final changes, insert secret messages into parts of the text, and take care of a few other details. Then it gets handed off to Fred for layout and I move on to writing the
Basic Rulebook.

But the things that Steve revealed are clearly happening in 6e. I have been in enough chats and face-to-face conversations with Steve over the years to be darned sure that everything that has been listed as revealed is indeed happening . If it wasn't, he wouldn't have talked about it yet.

 

Also, the chat was driven by questions -- the things revealed were things people asked about.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

So our Char lineup will be Str' date=' Dex, Con, Body, Int, Ego, Pre. Then Secondaries as OCV, DCV, OECV, DECV, PD, ED, SPD, REC, END, STUN. [/quote']I'm not sure that there's any distinction (real or imagined) in 6E between Primary and Secondaries if they're all starting with a base number even if those base numbers are different. Seems to me the system just increased to 17 Characteristics - more if any of the old Characteristics (such as DEX) have been split.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I'm not sure that there's any distinction (real or imagined) in 6E between Primary and Secondaries if they're all starting with a base number even if those base numbers are different. Seems to me the system just increased to 17 Characteristics - more if any of the old Characteristics (such as DEX) have been split.

 

You are probably right. I just divided them that way to help make my point.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Wow, just read through 81 pages of this.

 

To summarize the cumulative points and offer my own take (not like that take matters really.):

 

1. "I like some of these changes"

 

Answer: Awesome. I bet the author likes them too. :) Additionally a year from now, most others probably will as well. This is the D20 4th ed discussion all over again.

 

2. "I dislike some of these changes"

 

Answer: Awesome. First rule of being a gamesmaster is "You make the rules." You're hardly lacking empowerment here.

 

3. "Steve obviously has an agenda"

 

Answer: Yup. It's called "lets keep the game system fresh so it doesn't become Star Frontiers or Gamma World." The life of a game system relies on being interesting for the next generation while keeping itself true to its history such that it doesn't lose a majority of it's long timers.

 

4. "I'll stick with 4th ed or 5th ed"

 

Answer: Awesome. You're an important part of the family cause any book that has the HERO logo on it is HERO marketing. Someone goes to look for it in a store, they'll find sixth ed. Score.

 

5. "I can't wait for 6th ed."

 

Answer: Awesome. Everyone at HERO appreciates this as it justifies jobs. :)

 

My own feeling is I wish 6th was out right now. I'm starting a new campaign in a few weeks and I need to get the groundwork done so I can start before some of my group goes back to school (self included).

 

Just play the game when it comes out. If it costs a couple hundred bucks for a couple hundred hours of enjoyment, you made out.

 

Two cents.

CL

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

IIRC the Forums were quite negative on those changes (and still are for the most part) It just happened after the rules were published.

 

Sure, but the presentation was different; we got hints of really neat stuff but no super controversial stuff until after the book came out.

 

I don't think Mr Long's agenda is to keep things fresh, just for the sake of freshness. Gamma World got left behind for lack of support and crappy game mechanics. It was a pretty sucky game with a neat world concept. Hero doesn't suffer from terrible game mechanics or age (its pretty fresh still). I think the "agenda" if any is something like this:

 

1) Capitalize on the MMOG release to freshen and expand sales of Hero Games

2) Touch on some things he's always wanted to do (e.g. de-figure figured characteristics)

3) Update the rules with things that have come up in questions and discussion on here and with friends.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well the beauty of this whole thread is opinion. The Hero system is great. My point on HERO/Gamma World is simply this: You can't keep selling the same game forever. Times change, gamers change and the game market takes on new forms from time to time. If you keep your game static you go the way of Gamma World.

 

My second point was simply that once a thread goes over maybe 10 pages you know all you're going to find is whining upon whining. Maybe 10 of the posts in this thread glean some magic bean of rules knowledge that will make a difference somewhere. I just know I lost 30 minutes I'm never getting back :)

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well the beauty of this whole thread is opinion. The Hero system is great. My point on HERO/Gamma World is simply this: You can't keep selling the same game forever. Times change' date=' gamers change and the game market takes on new forms from time to time. If you keep your game static you go the way of Gamma World.[/quote']

 

You know Gamma World had like 5 editions plus d20 Modern right?

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Gamma World failed because even after 6 tries' date=' it was "Find exactly the right gear! Or die!"[/quote']

 

There's that, character generation was fun in 4 out of 6 though.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Y'know what's fun? Gamma World using HERO System! Amazingly enough so is RIFTS. It truly is a miraculous thing' date=' this game we play.[/quote']

 

Now that is TRULY the POWER of the Hero System. Take any Game world at all and it becomes a Hero Sourcebook in many cases without much more fuss than figuring out point limits.

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