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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Okay' date=' I see DI and JI as basically having similar Martial Arts as 4th ed. What do do you see as so different to constitute a major change?[/quote']

 

Well, the individual maneuvers were costed out in 4th, and set up so you could build your own MA. IIRC, neither DI nor JI had the "extra DC for +4 points" option, either.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I still think Followers, Bases, Vehicles and Computers could be folded up into a single perk, which would clean up character sheets and make Batman/Doc Savage/Iron Man type characters (those with all the trappings of veteran, resourceful heroes--sidekicks, computers, bases, vehicles, robot duplicates, etc.) easier/cheaper to writeup, with a cleaner-looking character sheet.

 

What I'm undecided about, should I decide to house rule such a mod into existence, is what to name it. "Trappings" is the term I'm currently thinking of.

 

How about "Resource"?

 

Maybe not specific enough, but it gets the point across, more or less. :)

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well' date=' the individual maneuvers were costed out in 4th, and set up so you could build your own MA.[/quote']

 

I don't think that happened until Ninja Hero and then elaborated on in Ultimate Martial Artist.

 

IIRC, neither DI nor JI had the "extra DC for +4 points" option, either.

 

You're right on that one.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I believe there was an END battery power, although I don't recall a fixed ratio of END and REC, and my timing could be off. I also remember back to very old editions when having a fixed amount of what was basically an END reserve was a limitation on a power. 16 charges or 8x END Battery were both -0 limitations, and the levels of limitation paralleled each other, with the END battery always having END to go to full power for half the number of charges.

 

 

 

As I recall, Flight had noncombat computed as a multipler based on active cost, but the other movement powers were 2x Noncombat. As I recall, Stall Speed was a vehicle rule only.

 

End Reserves was an Advantage/Limitation kind of like Charges. It was changes because it caused many VERY Cheezed builds of characters with unbelievably large End Reserves. It became a power to reduce the ways that it could be abused. How it worked was: Take your most end expensive ability (not including increased end), choose your end multiple to find the total endurance of that power. Remember in 3rd edition end cost was active cost/5. To cheese you take your most expensive power apply the limit/advantage, then limit it down to next to nothing. For bonus points make it the first slot of your EC and save more points.

 

tasha

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I don't think that happened until Ninja Hero and then elaborated on in Ultimate Martial Artist.

 

Correct. Aaron Alliston's Ninja Hero changed the way that we look at martial arts in the Hero System. In 4th edition you just purchased the maneuvers and DC's thought there weren't many maneuvers (ie 5th edition core rulebook)

 

Ninja Hero did have rules for building your own maneuvers.

 

Steve Long added the Ranged Maneuvers and added additional elements that could be placed in a maneuver, but he started with AA's framework.

 

Tasha

Been here since Champions 2nd edition...

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

How it worked was: Take your most end expensive ability (not including increased end)' date=' choose your end multiple to find the total endurance of that power.[/quote']

Not quite, or at least not the way I remember it. The usual cheese was to have all your main powers on a x1 END reserve (a -1.5 limitation) and take a single small (10 base point, and likely extremely limited since you don't actually need to use it) power on a very large END reserve (I don't recall if there was a max, but I'm sure at least x128 was possible). Then, you link all your END reserves together. If we assume the large powers were 60 active points, each of them contributed 12 END to the reserve (and costed 12 END to use), while the small power (20 active) contributes 512 END to the reserve, so in effect you're getting all your major powers at a -1.5 limitation (and no need to buy reduced END cost) at a cost of needing to buy a rather small secondary power.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Not quite' date=' or at least not the way I remember it. The usual cheese was to have all your main powers on a x1 END reserve (a -1.5 limitation) and take a single small (10 base point, and likely extremely limited since you don't actually need to use it) power on a very large END reserve (I don't recall if there was a max, but I'm sure at least x128 was possible). Then, you link all your END reserves together. If we assume the large powers were 60 active points, each of them contributed 12 END to the reserve (and costed 12 END to use), while the small power (20 active) contributes 512 END to the reserve, so in effect you're getting all your major powers at a -1.5 limitation (and no need to buy reduced END cost) at a cost of needing to buy a rather small secondary power.[/quote']

 

In any event, 4e changed it from a Modifier to a separate Power.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

In any event' date=' 4e changed it from a Modifier to a separate Power.[/quote']

 

It wasn't a power modifier. Reduced Endurance, Multipower and Elemental Controls are/were power modifier.

 

The core group of people I played with didn't really cheeze the rules that hard. I also always hated endurance reserves as they were too complicated to want to deal with.

 

Lets just say that 1st edition-3rd edition had huge loopholes that players. 4th edition changed that and closed most all of those loopholes. 5th edition was written to close more loopholes and explain the rules better. 6th edition seems to be streamlining certain rules and making things more consistant.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

It wasn't a power modifier. Reduced Endurance, Multipower and Elemental Controls are/were power modifier.

 

The core group of people I played with didn't really cheeze the rules that hard. I also always hated endurance reserves as they were too complicated to want to deal with.

 

Lets just say that 1st edition-3rd edition had huge loopholes that players. 4th edition changed that and closed most all of those loopholes. 5th edition was written to close more loopholes and explain the rules better. 6th edition seems to be streamlining certain rules and making things more consistant.

 

According to the 2e rulebook, Power Modifiers includes Frameworks (ECs and MPs -- although the Framework name is not used), Advantages, and Limitations. Reduced END Cost appears between the Frameworks and Advantages but is not disussed in the intro.

 

They may have changed the terminology in the 3e rulebook but I don't remember them doing so.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

According to the 2e rulebook, Power Modifiers includes Frameworks (ECs and MPs -- although the Framework name is not used), Advantages, and Limitations. Reduced END Cost appears between the Frameworks and Advantages but is not disussed in the intro.

 

They may have changed the terminology in the 3e rulebook but I don't remember them doing so.

 

Ok you are right. in 3rd edtion those were called "General Modifiers". Limitations, Advantages and "General Modifiers" were all classed as Power Modifiers. It's been a long time since I opened that rulebook and my memory was faulty :D

 

Tasha

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Ok you are right. in 3rd edtion those were called "General Modifiers". Limitations, Advantages and "General Modifiers" were all classed as Power Modifiers. It's been a long time since I opened that rulebook and my memory was faulty :D

 

Tasha

 

You're not the only one. This thread has me looking at those old books for the first time in years.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Lets just say that 1st edition-3rd edition had huge loopholes that players. 4th edition changed that and closed most all of those loopholes.

And created a few new ones; I'm curious to see whether 6e will finally fix adjustment powers.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

And created a few new ones; I'm curious to see whether 6e will finally fix adjustment powers.

 

Steve said that he really gave a lot of thought to Adjustment powers. I am excited to see what he came up with.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Back in our day you young whipper snappers... Martial Arts costs more based on how strong you were' date=' so you didn't have all these martial arts bricks running around...[/quote']

 

Yeah, and Acrobatics cost 10 points and did everything that current Acro and Breakfall does and gave you +2 DCV if you made your Acrobatics Roll!

 

Of course there were no Presence based skills, KS, PS or Sci. Those came in Champions II

 

Also Heroes stood in one place when they fought. Otherwise they suffered a -1 OCV to hit.

 

Also the rules looked like they were typeset on a Typewriter, and probably were!

 

I loved those Mark Williams outlines that you could color in for your costume. All of the guys choose the big brick guy that looked like he was getting ready to leave a brick.

 

We used paper and a calculator to figure out power costs and really never worried about character cost. In those days if you could come up with the disads to pay for your character you were golden! BTW this was also in the days where every identical disad after 2 gave you half, then quarter etc points.

 

Hero was the system that taught a bunch of munchkin D&Ders how to Role Play and to come up with backgrounds and character motivations. We had a really special GM in those days. I hope he is doing well!

 

Tasha

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Hero was the system that taught a bunch of munchkin D&Ders how to Role Play and to come up with backgrounds and character motivations. We had a really special GM in those days. I hope he is doing well!

 

Tasha

 

Seriously, back in the day Champions was the game that turned you (the generic "you", not anyone in particular) into a lifelong roleplayer, instead of just someone who played D&D back in junior high. It's also the reason over half the games that came out afterward had some form of character points and flaws.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I know I'm coming to this a bit late -- real life has no "pause" button. :\

 

The basic 3d6-roll-for-success mechanic remains, and it will continue to be "roll-low."

Eh. I would have liked a Roll-High change, but I was only mildly in favor of it.

 

No changes to the Speed Chart.

Good.

 

Movement will continue to be measured per Phase.

Also Good.

 

All measurements will be given in meters. There will be no use of "hexes" or any other mapping arrangement in 6E.

Does this mean eliminating Turn Modes, or stating them as 60 degree turns instead of "one hexside"?

 

Comeliness will no longer be one of the Characteristics. It's being replaced with a Talent, Striking Appearance, which a given group can choose to use in their game if they want a character's appearance to have a mechanical effect.

I presume that Striking Appearance has a variability in cost & effect to simulate the 5ER-way of buying more or less COM?

 

And if I bought Striking Appearance and added Does Knockback, it would truly be Striking! :D

 

All the other Characteristics will remain, but none of them will be "Figured," i.e. derived from other Characteristics. They'll all start with a base value that must be bought up separately. The costs of some of them have been "tweaked" -- no further details yet.

I expected this. Combined with the "unlimiting" of the EC-replacement mentioned later, I think the actual difference from 5ER will likely be not that great.

 

OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics, not derived from DEX and EGO. They'll start with a base value of 3 and will be bought up separately.

I didn't expect this. Without seeing the changes to Adjustment Powers (mentioned later), I would have to say I am anxious about Adjustments (both positive and negative) directly to any of them, as well as just buying some of them in munchkiny ways.

 

Suggested starting point totals will be raised to compensate for the change to Characteristics -- no specifics yet.

I expected this. But I don't think it would change a whole lot, considering the unlimiting of the EC Replacement.

 

Perception will still be based on INT.

Good.

 

Leaping will no longer be derived from Strength -- it will start at a base amount for all characters, as with Running and Swimming.

Hesitantly Good. Depends upon the revised costs of STR and Leaping.

 

Skills will still be calculated from CHAR/5, but there will be an optional "Toolkitting" note about changing that if desired. Other Toolkitting notes will appear throughout the rules -- no further details on those.

Too bad there doesn't seem to be a Toolkitting note about Roll-High...

 

Seduction Skill will be renamed Charm.

Good choice!

 

No new Skills will be added, although a couple have been "tweaked" (no more details yet).

Non-commital grunt.

 

Package Deal will be renamed Template.

Good to remove the word "deal" from what wasn't a deal at all. :)

 

Some new Powers have been added, and others have been removed. The only one mentioned is Find Weakness, which is being removed. There will be no official way to reduce Defenses below 1/2 as with Armor Piercing.

It had gotten a bit cumbersom. And it has been possible to build a FW replacement using the RaW for a while, though IIRC it winds up costing a chunk more.

 

Adjustment Powers have been significantly reworked -- no further details yet.

Non-commital grunt.

 

Energy Blast and Killing Attack will still be separate forms of Damage, as they are in 5E.

Good.

 

The Stun Multiplier for Killing Attack will become a straight 1/2d6. It will still be possible to buy up the Stun Multiplier with Advantages.

Despite being a tad low, I think that this is a good change in keeping with simplicity.

 

You will be able to apply your Normal Defenses to the STUN damage of a Killing Attack whether you have any Resistant Defenses or not.

I'm not sure this is a good change, especially considering it in combination with the above change. And saying that "most all characters already have the requsite 1 pt rPD or rED just IMO shows that games in general (especially Superheroes) have gotten slowly more "Iron Age-y". There is something to the feeling of nakedness when you don't have rPD and are facing a mugger with a knife.

 

Nothing has changed about the way STR adds to Hand-To-Hand Killling Attack damage.

I had hoped that the "always pro-rate when adding to an advantaged HKA or HA" would be brought back to close a damage loophole.

 

Increased reach for larger-than-normal beings and weapons will not necessarily require Stretching -- no further details yet.

This doesn't make a lot of sense (so far) to me.

 

The method of Adding Damage is supposed to be simplified -- no further details yet.

Very, Very good. As long as it's uniform, balanced, and has no loopholes.

 

The Multipower and VPP Frameworks will remain, but Elemental Control is being replaced by a new Limitation, Unified Power (no value given). Aside from GM oversight there will be no restrictions on what Unified Power can be applied to.

Good+. (Not quite a Very Good, but better than just Good.)

 

Damage Shield is going to be "different" -- no details yet.

Hopefully it won't cost quite as much to build one as it did in 5ER.

 

There will be another, more granular way to make a Power ECV-targeted than using the BOECV Advantage. No specifics given, but it involves breaking the Advantage into its separate components (i.e. ECV Attack Roll, Line Of Sight, etc.) and "reassembling" them to make them more flexible (and simpler according to Steve). Steve implied that he's used this approach for other elements of the system.

Witholding comment until I see more info.

 

Disadvantages are being renamed Complications, and Psychological Limitations will become Psychological Complications.

A good idea to eliminate confusion over "Limitaitons" and "Psychological Limitations, which are really Disadvantages".

 

There will be a single index, printed in both 6E rulebooks, with a letter code before each number to indicate which book it refers to.

Can you reiterate what the two books are going to be?

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I also doubt that this changes the current rule about any BODY taken becoming the minimum amount of STUN damage taken.

 

I thought that in 5ER the Stun-from-Body-Past-Defenses was *additional* STUN (w/ no defense), and not a minimum like with the Penetrating Advantage?

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Seriously' date=' back in the day Champions was the game that turned you (the generic "you", not anyone in particular) into a lifelong roleplayer, instead of just someone who played D&D back in junior high. It's also the reason over half the games that came out afterward had some form of character points and flaws.[/quote']

 

Just a small historical nit-pick. Before Champions came out, Steve Jackson and GDW had already introduced the gaming world to point-buy systems with character flaws (The Fantasy Trip and Traveller, correspondingly).

 

Those were the games that allowed me to escape D&D. Champions came along a year or two later in my gaming life to show me the wonders of comic-book superhero roleplaying.

 

The rest, as they say, is history... :D

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I thought that in 5ER the Stun-from-Body-Past-Defenses was *additional* STUN (w/ no defense)' date=' and not a minimum like with the Penetrating Advantage?[/quote']

 

It's even in bold letters in the book.

 

from 5er page 410:

 

MINIMUM DAMAGE FROM INJURIES

Regardless of whether an attack does Normal Damage or Killing Damage, a character automatically takes 1 STUN for every 1 point of BODY damage that gets through his defenses. He can Recover this STUN normally; he doesn’t have to heal the BODY damage first.

 

Example: Ogre has a PD of 40, but only 5 of it is Resistant. He gets shot by a .44 Magnum revolver and takes 10 BODY, 30 STUN. After applying his defenses, he would normally take 5 BODY, 0 STUN. Because he took BODY damage, he takes a minimum of 1 STUN per point of BODY taken, so he takes 5 STUN regardless of his defenses

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Essentially' date=' book one will be Character Creation (the kind of material in 5ER chapter one) and book two will be Combat & Adventuring (everything else).[/quote']

 

 

So after thirty (almost) years, Hero System finally gets it's own version of the Players Handbook and a Dungeon Master's Guide.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

So after thirty (almost) years' date=' Hero System finally gets it's own version of the Players Handbook and a Dungeon Master's Guide.[/quote']Only if you think players don't care about things like Combat Maneuvers... ;)

 

Seriously, it's not really the same thing. The PHB and the DMG are two separate books, written for two somewhat different audiences. The 6E core rules are essentially one book split into two volumes for the practical purpose of keeping a single volume from getting too big. :)

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Just a small historical nit-pick. Before Champions came out' date=' Steve Jackson and GDW had already introduced the gaming world to point-buy systems with character flaws (The Fantasy Trip and Traveller, correspondingly).

 

Those were the games that allowed me to escape D&D. Champions came along a year or two later in my gaming life to show me the wonders of comic-book superhero roleplaying.

 

The rest, as they say, is history... :D

 

I'll give you The Fantasy Trip but how the heck does any pre-1981 Traveller get to be considered a point-buy system with character flaws?

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