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Lord Liaden

6E Rules changes confirmed so far

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I just don't understand the attractiveness of COM. (someone had to say it :o)

 

Lets not go that road again. Some people like it, others don't. Frankly the seemingly constant "I don't understand how you could like this like its some bizarre alien ritual and mental aberration to have liked the stat feel both a little insulting, baiting and rubbing salt in a wound, admittedly a small one but a wound none the less Just accept there is no accounting for taste. It's officially gone from 6th edition, will not trouble your games anymore with its existence and, hopefully will be cast onto the trash heap of history like all other objectively bad ideas. Com is dead, long live Striking Appearance. (sarcasm)

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Lets not go that road again.

 

Exactly lets focus on issues of real import, like having to pay twice for the same index!

 

 

 

That's never gonna be as funny as I want it to be is it?

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Exactly lets focus on issues of real import, like having to pay twice for the same index!

 

 

 

That's never gonna be as funny as I want it to be is it?

 

I'm willing but I've learned to love indexes after dealing with White Wolf.... yeesh Having no idex is one thing, having a bad index is another but having a bad index wherein you went out of your way to put in "amusing" jokes is just over the top. Its says "Not only do we not care about quality, we're openly mocking you for doing so."

 

DOJ has and always will have WWGS beat all to Heck and back when it comes to quality control and customer service

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I'm willing but I've learned to love indexes after dealing with White Wolf.... yeesh
Me too. Steve's indexes in 5th Edition were lightyears better than those in all previous editions. I don't imagine 6E's index will be anything but better still.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Let's revel in two glorious full color books. I've at times doubted the value of art and color, but time has changed that standpoint (and experience with some other games and the reaction to changes in format). This will be an attention getter to new players. Players already perhaps used to systems wjere the player just needs one book, while the GM grabs another. These players will no longer see a giant black intimidating textbook, but something far more recognizeable to them (and interesting).

 

And once we get them hooked, we can trot out Fred and Fiver, and do our best Crocodile Dundee imitation.

 

You call that a rulebook? Now this is a rulebook!

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I'll tell you one thing. I've decided to never be anything but positive with any "outsiders" including those who use other systems no matter how I ultimately feel when all the dust clears. DOJ and its wonderful leader and staff really deserve to do well and i hope things take off for them.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

The quality of a rule is not judged only by the good it does to the groups it works for, but also by the harm it does the groups it does not work for.

 

To give an extreme example, some groups doubtless made good use of the fortunately-defunct alignment languages rule from early versions of D&D.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Thanks Rod for the updated and summarized listing of known changes. You have made me more likely to spend some money on the new system though I am still full of trepidation.

 

------------------------

 

“Toolkitting” notes throughout the rule books will describe optional rules that can be use to customize the Hero System to fit the needs of players and GMs.

Sounds good, I like having options.

 

An updated selection of Powers, including some that are brand new, lets players build even more diverse characters.

 

No problems here, It will be interesting to see what is added.

 

Adjustment Powers have been reworked to improve their flexibility and playability.

Can’t make a call until I see what the changes are.

 

The STUN Multiplier for Killing Attacks has been modified to be a simple ½d6 to better position them as Attacks which deliver increased BODY but reduced STUN. In a related change, targets of a Killing Attack can apply their full PD or ED, as appropriate, against the STUN of that attack regardless of whether or not they have any resistant defenses.

 

Still real opposed to this. I usually run heroic, gritty, realistic games. One of the house rules is that we bumped up the DC of most firearms and lethal weapons. Only the resistant portion of PD or ED can be applied to the STUM from KA unless the character is wearing rigid armor, then all PD and ED can be applied to the STUN. Many weapons do increased STUN as well. You can see how this change does exactly the opposite of what our games have featured. Our group has found that the damage of Killing weapons in the RAW is usually lacking in Killing damage and STUN potential.

 

All movement and distance measurements are now in meters to improve mapless play while still allowing the use of maps and miniatures, if desired.

I still want to see how facing is supposed to be handled on a non-hex grid regulated map. Overall I have no problem with this though.

 

A new Talent Striking Appearance will replace the Comeliness Characteristic. This new Talent, which can purchased multiple times to represent varying degrees of physical appearance, is designed to increase the game effects of such appearances.

 

Don’t like it since I don’t see the need to “clutter up” the character sheet with another Talent. The COM attribute takes up practically no space, just a single line with a number, COM and another number. A Talent is going to take up more space.

 

Four new Characteristics make it easier to create characters with differing offensive and defensive capabilities in both physical and mental combat and to create powers that can directly affect a character’s Combat Values.

 

This must be referring to making OCV, DCV, OECV and DECV individual characteristics. I am very against this. IMO it makes much more sense for CV to be based on DEX and ECV to be based on EGO. More often than not a character with a fantastic DEX is going to be coordinated enough to be a better missile and melee combatant than a normal person. In the case of an exceptional character who has good DEX and subpar CV it is easier to take a disadvantage/complication to represent the anomaly.

 

Mandatory links between Characteristics have been eliminated. All Characteristics are now purchased independently and several Characteristics have been rebalanced and re-priced to reflect this change.

 

The work Mandatory gives me hope. If there is an option allowing me to easily re-couple then I will be much less disappointed. If re-coupling is not easy to do then this is still a big strike (IMO) against the system.

 

Leaping is now purchased independently from Strength.

 

I am opposed to this for much the same reasons I have given earlier. To me it is simply logical that a strong character with strong legs ought to be able to leap higher and farther.

 

Some Skills have been modified.

 

Have to see which one and how so.

 

Improved Advantage handling includes a new more granular approach that improves the flexibility of many Advantages.

 

Again I’ll have to see what the changes are.

 

The Damage Shield Advantage has been modified.

 

In the current RAW Damage Shield is nearly too expensive to be affordable. I am curious to see what the changes are.

 

A new Limitation named Unified Power replaces Elemental Controls. Unlike Elemental Controls, there will be no restrictions on what it can be applied to.

 

Doesn’t sound too bad; EC is one of the most used power frameworks in our games. Often, based on the rational, our group has made exceptions for normally disallowed powers. If this is more flexible it could be an improvement.

 

New names for several game elements make their roles clearer. The Seduction Skill has been renamed Charm; Package Deals have been renamed Templates; and Disadvantages have been Complications. In a similar vein, Psychological, Physical, and Social Limitations have been renamed Psychological, Physical, and Social Complications.

 

A rose by any other name… This is fine and some of the name changes are probably a good idea.

 

Increased reach for larger-than-normal beings and weapons has been simplified.

 

Sounds OK

 

The rules for adding damage from Strength and other sources have modified to make them easier to use during play.

 

Probably OK, I need to see it though.

 

Suggested starting points for all genres and sub-genres have been increased to let players take full advantage of all Hero System 6th Edition features.

Disappointing, if all of the unnecessary (IMO) tinkering with de-coupling had not been done this probably would not have been necessary. Since it is related to that hot button issue of mine I have to be opposed to this. Since they are just “suggestions” it may not be so bad.

 

Each of the two full color hardcover Hero System 6th Edition core rule books will feature a full index that covers the contents of both books.

 

I hope the indexes are improvements over the current ones. It is high time that Hero started using color throughout their books. I just wish it had happened earlier. I foresee sticker shock as the biggest impediment to attracting new players.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Considering the "facing rules" are essentially non-existant currently, I would imagine it would not affect them at all to switch to only meters.... one my my groups hasn't used a gridded map in over a decade - just a white board and the dire need of a straight edge as the GM couldn't draw a straight line if he were tracing it.

 

the question here is will Turn Mode change at all?

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

......................

Each of the two full color hardcover Hero System 6th Edition core rule books will feature a full index that covers the contents of both books.

 

I hope the indexes are improvements over the current ones. ..............

 

 

Eh? The index in 5er (and FRED) is one of the best in any rpg, ever. you can find anything quickly and easily. I'm sure it can and will be improved further, but, IMO, it is already excellent.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

On decoupling CV from DEX etc - I was thinking about this the other day, and I reckon that the ability to get out of the way of an incoming attack is part luck and, mostly, training, either the 'natural' training we all get from life or the sort of training we get from combat classes ro getting into fights.

 

 

I'm not sure a (potentially) 4 point difference between an average human and a top end human (just looking at raw DEX) is realistic at all. To that extent I welcome the change, as it puts the emphasis back on training.

 

It will be interesting to see if all characteristics aer 'naturally' persistent. DEX, for instance, isn't: you don't use DEX when you are asleep, but there are other situations where you are assumed not to be using it - for instance out of combat. DEX is sort of constant, but requires a form of concentration and soemtimes a form of perception - it is only 'fully on' when it is being actively used.

 

Why would you want to? Well it may be that your DCV is derived not from your ability to move like lightning, but, say, from the fact that you are partially intangible, and it should make no difference whether you are in combat or not - unless you actively switch it off, you will be harder to hit by the same factor in or out fo combat.

 

Now if DCV is a characteristic, you can , for instance, make it persistent. That would model a form of defensive ability that ignores being taken by surprise or hit from behind and is not PER based.

 

I do not know how far this has all been thought through, but I can see some real possibilities for 'seperate' CV.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

CVs with Advantages and Limitations, that does create some odd possibilities. For example, if your characters DCV comes from Desolidification like Sean mentioned or their Nigh Impenetrable Force Feild (Many attacks just bounce off or fail to affect the character) you could purchase any increase with this "Unified Power" limitation.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Considering the "facing rules" are essentially non-existant currently, I would imagine it would not affect them at all to switch to only meters.... one my my groups hasn't used a gridded map in over a decade - just a white board and the dire need of a straight edge as the GM couldn't draw a straight line if he were tracing it.

 

the question here is will Turn Mode change at all?

 

I often used hexagonal bases for miniatures (plenty of them leftover from my battletech stock). It worked great as we didnt need hexed maps, but could still easily work out facing changes.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

My goodness.

 

I admit to naivete. When I first posted the Sixth Edition rules tidbits that Steve Long had revealed, I really didn't imagine they would prompt such a torrent of verbiage. I'm still not sure whether to be proud or ashamed of the result. :o In any case, I'm finding that monitoring this thread, responding to or incorporating input from other members of the community, is taking up much more of my time and energy than I ever intended. It's also contributing to general fatigue over HERO rules discussions which has been building in me for a long time.

 

I thought I should let participants to this thread know that as a result, I won't be contributing to the thread any more, including posting any new information about Sixth Edition that Steve releases. My apologies; I feel bad about not continuing what I started, but not as bad as I'll feel if I keep it up. :sneaky:

 

I welcome anyone who wants to take up responsibility for keeping the 6E info pipeline flowing, on this thread or a new one. (I suspect that a fresh start to the topic somewhere else might clear the air a bit.) ;) All things considered, it would be perfectly understandable if no one else wants to do so.

 

I do want to thank everyone who has contributed thoughtful, reasoned discourse here. When the debate wasn't rancorous it was actually pretty interesting. :)

 

LL

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

wait wait wait wait..

 

 

Vehicles can buy Talents.

Weapons purchased as Vehicles can buy Talents.

 

 

. . . . . . like ICBMs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(I would apologize, but I'm not really sorry.)

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Ya know, I'm going to have to disagree with Tasha at this point. Ten Years from now people will still by talking about ***....probably on this thread :D

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

It seems to me that if EGO is decoupled from ECV, my EGO v. EGO breakout roll idea actually makes a LOT more sense than keeping the straight ego roll.

 

Has Steve said anything about the mental powers rules yet?

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

It seems to me that if EGO is decoupled from ECV, my EGO v. EGO breakout roll idea actually makes a LOT more sense than keeping the straight ego roll.

 

Has Steve said anything about the mental powers rules yet?

 

To answer your second part first, no, Steve has not said anything yet about Mental Powers. While I like your EGO vs. EGO idea, I am failing to see why you think the decoupling would make it make more sense?

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

To answer your second part first' date=' no, Steve has not said anything yet about Mental Powers. While I like your EGO vs. EGO idea, I am failing to see why you think the decoupling would make it make more sense?[/quote']

 

Ah, the reason why is because currently mentalists mainly buy their ego up in order to increase their ECV to a level that will make it overwhelmingly likely they will hit most target's DECV fairly easily. If you decouple it, then buying up EGO only has the effect of making the target more resistant to other's mental powers, and increasing their ego-based rolls. So giving a benefit to maintaining mental powers against attempts to break out would tend to increase the value of buying up EGO.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

so would having an armor piercing OCV mean I just halved the targets DCV

or not if it is hardened?

 

could be a way to show a swarm attack or a shotgun blast with out having to use area effect advantages

 

 

 

 

CVs with Advantages and Limitations' date=' that does create some odd possibilities. For example, if your characters DCV comes from Desolidification like Sean mentioned or their Nigh Impenetrable Force Feild (Many attacks just bounce off or fail to affect the character) you could purchase any increase with this "Unified Power" limitation.[/quote']

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Armor Piercing on OCV doesn't really make much sense, since it's not an Attack Power.

 

It'd be like putting Armor Piercing on CON....

 

Interesting idea though. hmmmm....

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

OCV is what gets the attack there

it can simulate being attacked from multiple directions or an attack that has a wide spread since once you see an attack is area 1 hex it pretty much becomes useless since all the target has to do is dive for cove 1 hex to get out of the area(this would be in the case of shotguns and the like)

the only counter to dive for cover would be to wait till the targets used up his full phase and then shoot

I see both the dive for cover(after the fact is known)and waiting as being to meta-gaming

 

it could also simulate hosing an area with rapid fire with out having to go into tons of charges or paying x2 the advantage for reduced end

it would help keep powers within active point limits

 

 

 

Armor Piercing on OCV doesn't really make much sense, since it's not an Attack Power.

 

It'd be like putting Armor Piercing on CON....

 

Interesting idea though. hmmmm....

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