6E Rules changes confirmed so far

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Sorry but Chaosium's BRP (Runequest, Call of Cthulhu) and FGU's Aftermath, Bushido, and Space Opera played a part as well. All allowed huge flexibility in skills / stats. I know Aftermath included disadvantages, I don't recall without doing some digging through boxes if Bushido or Space Opera did, but I believe they did. All of these games are too close to Champions release to have been influenced by Champions (1980-82).

 

As I recall even TSR's Top Secret included a disadvantage system, and it definately had a system for selecting skills.

 

None of this is meant to take away from Champions / HERO, it very much deserves a place in the top 10 most influential RPGs, but it was just part of a gaming evolution. Champions was definately a step forward doing many things more elegantly than others had to that point. Giving it credit for point buy and advantages / disadvantages is going a bit far, particularly when you consider it was another several years before the game branched out to other more popular genres where it had a wider impact (Espionage 1983, Justice Inc 1984, Fantasy HERO 1985). Chosium's BRP beat both HERO and GURPS to the universal RPG concept with their Worlds of wonder even though they didn't come right out and call it that.

 

 

Having played Aftermath! many times over the past twenty five years or so, I'd like to see a reference for what you are considering a Disadvantage because I am honestly not remembering it. I'd pull out my books and check it myself but I am currently at Gen Con. And I'm pretty sure that Space Opera didn't either.

 

The original Top Secret did indeed have something very similar to Skills with Areas of Knowledge but again, I really don't recall anything that I'd call a disadvantage.

 

Finally, I wouldn't call WoW a universal RPG concept. It was three very limited games in three different genres which shared a system. As far as that goes, Chaosium had already done that before WoW with Runequest and Call of Cthulhu.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Sorry but Chaosium's BRP (Runequest, Call of Cthulhu) and FGU's Aftermath, Bushido, and Space Opera played a part as well. All allowed huge flexibility in skills / stats. I know Aftermath included disadvantages, I don't recall without doing some digging through boxes if Bushido or Space Opera did, but I believe they did. All of these games are too close to Champions release to have been influenced by Champions (1980-82).

 

Champions was a runaway success in the ways that pretty much all of those other games were not. It put the notion of skills/powers/points/disadvantages on the map in front of a lot of people who might not have seen it otherwise. For a good couple of years, Champions was the alternative to D&D.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Champions was a runaway success in the ways that pretty much all of those other games were not. It put the notion of skills/powers/points/disadvantages on the map in front of a lot of people who might not have seen it otherwise. For a good couple of years' date=' Champions was [i']the[/i] alternative to D&D.

 

I agree. Champions/Hero, even if it wasn't the first system that used any of those particular mechanisms, put them all together into a damn good system all the way around. On top of classless point-buy, Disadvantages, and Power constructs, I'd add things like a high degree of mathematical/physical consistency (I won't say "accuracy" or "realism", but it's all done in a way that I find particularly satisfying as a scientist), and a philosophy that encourages creative interpretation rather than iron-clad rules.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Champions was a runaway success in the ways that pretty much all of those other games were not. It put the notion of skills/powers/points/disadvantages on the map in front of a lot of people who might not have seen it otherwise. For a good couple of years' date=' Champions was [i']the[/i] alternative to D&D.

Absolutely! I'd say it was easily the #2 system out there for a while. At my local game con, Champions or HERO System games were very well represented, beaten in numbers only by deendee. This was in the days of 4th Ed.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Thanks' date=' I've read those, but that doesn't really answer my question, which was how AOE TK STR and Entangle are to be applied--per target/object, per square/cubic meter, or something else?[/quote']

 

Pretty much the same as in 5th except in meters - a radius is now an actual circle

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Pretty much the same as in 5th except in meters - a radius is now an actual circle

 

Hey! What was wrong with the hexa-circle-spheri-thingy?

[ajackson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Hey! What was wrong with the hexa-circle-spheri-thingy?

Hexagonal taxicab geometry, please. Has the useful feature that pi = 3.

[Toadmaster]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Having played Aftermath! many times over the past twenty five years or so, I'd like to see a reference for what you are considering a Disadvantage because I am honestly not remembering it. I'd pull out my books and check it myself but I am currently at Gen Con. And I'm pretty sure that Space Opera didn't either.

 

The original Top Secret did indeed have something very similar to Skills with Areas of Knowledge but again, I really don't recall anything that I'd call a disadvantage.

 

Finally, I wouldn't call WoW a universal RPG concept. It was three very limited games in three different genres which shared a system. As far as that goes, Chaosium had already done that before WoW with Runequest and Call of Cthulhu.

 

 

Aftermath didn't have advantages / disadvantages just like HERO but the basic concept was there with special talent abilities and mutations strongs (sacrifice deftness & speed for added strength), quicks (sacrifice strength for added deftness & speed), smarts (sacrifice physical stats for increased wit & will) etc. Clearly not as detailed as HERO but similar in concept (sacrifice in one area for increase elsewhere).

 

BRP and WoW were not marked as a universal system, but what else are you going to call a system that did pulp, modern, fantasy, sci-fi, supers etc with essentially the same rules? By the mid 80's you could say the same about HERO (Fantasy, modern, pulp, supers, sci-fi). Gurps came along in '86 coining the term universal role playing system, but the basic concept was already pretty well established by that point, GURPS just refined it to reduce rules differences between genres.

 

 

Champions was a runaway success in the ways that pretty much all of those other games were not. It put the notion of skills/powers/points/disadvantages on the map in front of a lot of people who might not have seen it otherwise. For a good couple of years' date=' Champions was [i']the[/i] alternative to D&D.

 

In my experience Runequest & Call of Cthulhu were far more popular than HERO until Fantasy Hero arrived in 1985. For its first few years HERO was just Champions limiting its popularity quite a bit.

[Kdansky]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Of all I could see in all the threads up to 8 I have to say that this is a major improvement. Some numerical values can still break it (such as AoE being +1 still, letting it have zero effect against anyone with average defenses), but the ideas work. CVs and figureds decoupled will finally make some concepts work well, such as the fighter that is not also a superhuman acrobat, or the mental power genius that actually breaks under torture or can be seduced (sorry, charmed). The trash (ex COM / Forcefield + Armor) got taken out, the new powers (Possession) look very clever.

 

Disadvantages? Nostalgia goggles have to come off. Backwards compatibility will be broken, at least on a cost-level. Which is irrelevant anyway for NPCs, and the handful of PCs that are around can be rebuilt easily. Hopefully costs become a measure instead of the current general guideline. See the hundreds of utterly gamebreaking builds by the usual suspects.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Aftermath didn't have advantages / disadvantages just like HERO but the basic concept was there with special talent abilities and mutations strongs (sacrifice deftness & speed for added strength), quicks (sacrifice strength for added deftness & speed), smarts (sacrifice physical stats for increased wit & will) etc. Clearly not as detailed as HERO but similar in concept (sacrifice in one area for increase elsewhere).

 

BRP and WoW were not marked as a universal system, but what else are you going to call a system that did pulp, modern, fantasy, sci-fi, supers etc with essentially the same rules? By the mid 80's you could say the same about HERO (Fantasy, modern, pulp, supers, sci-fi). Gurps came along in '86 coining the term universal role playing system, but the basic concept was already pretty well established by that point, GURPS just refined it to reduce rules differences between genres.

 

 

 

 

In my experience Runequest & Call of Cthulhu were far more popular than HERO until Fantasy Hero arrived in 1985. For its first few years HERO was just Champions limiting its popularity quite a bit.

 

Not in Michigan they weren't...Champions was successful from the get go...for the reasons many others have mentioned. In my area...if you weren't playing D and D, you were probably playing Champions.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Not in Michigan they weren't...Champions was successful from the get go...for the reasons many others have mentioned. In my area...if you weren't playing D and D' date=' you were probably playing Champions.[/quote']

 

Here in Hero's original backyard, Champions just took over from D&D. One week we were playing our munchkined varient D&D games, the next one were playing munchkined Champions. Over the next few months, we started to lose the munchkin characters. In less than 6 months we were playing in a more or less story driven game that treasured RP more than combat prowess.

 

Even the most heavily Munchkin groups started to play Champions. I don't think that a single D&D game was happening in all of the groups that I was aware of. When Fantasy Hero hit, any folk that had backslid into D&D were drawn back to Hero.

 

Tasha

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Here in Hero's original backyard, Champions just took over from D&D. One week we were playing our munchkined varient D&D games, the next one were playing munchkined Champions. Over the next few months, we started to lose the munchkin characters. In less than 6 months we were playing in a more or less story driven game that treasured RP more than combat prowess.

 

Even the most heavily Munchkin groups started to play Champions. I don't think that a single D&D game was happening in all of the groups that I was aware of. When Fantasy Hero hit, any folk that had backslid into D&D were drawn back to Hero.

 

Tasha

 

I WISH that had been the case a little North of the Bay, but alas, it still isn't. D&D is probably still 95% of the gaming here, and always has been.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Here in Hero's original backyard, Champions just took over from D&D. One week we were playing our munchkined varient D&D games, the next one were playing munchkined Champions. Over the next few months, we started to lose the munchkin characters. In less than 6 months we were playing in a more or less story driven game that treasured RP more than combat prowess.

 

Even the most heavily Munchkin groups started to play Champions. I don't think that a single D&D game was happening in all of the groups that I was aware of. When Fantasy Hero hit, any folk that had backslid into D&D were drawn back to Hero.

That was my experience as well (SoCal). We played D&D. Then we played Villians and Vigilantes (V&V) for less time than "Bay City Blues" was on the air. Then came Champions, and we never looked back. Even though some of us preferred the fantasy genre, the ability to build and play exactly the character you wanted far outstripped any genre preference.

 

A few people dabbled in Traveler, as I recall. I remember hearing about Runequest, but nobody I knew played it. A few people into the whole Lovecraft thing played Call of Cthulhu. But the vast majority was Champions.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I WISH that had been the case a little North of the Bay' date=' but alas, it still isn't. D&D is probably still 95% of the gaming here, and always has been. [/quote']

 

Well, I was talking about the 80's and early 90s when Champions was still young.

 

Magic tGathering pretty much killed RPGs for a few years. I couldn't get anyone to play anything but a stinking CCG. 3rd edition D&D reminded everyone that they actually liked RPGs. While I got some old diehards playing again, D&D and d20 still rules the roost among most gamers.

 

With 4e causing the same kind of animosity among D&D fans as Fuzion caused among Hero fans, I think that Other systems have a unique opportunity to prove that they are fun alternatives to D&D.

 

Tasha

[GestaltBennie]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

My experience was that the first few years of Champions was big -- not huge, like D&D (but then no one was), but a big title that commanded its market niche for many years. The spin-off games such as Espionage, Justice Inc., and Fantasy Hero made a relatively small impact cmpared to early Champions.

[ajackson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

The problem with this argument is that it's based on personal experience, and RPGs have pretty aggressive clumping behaviors, because an awful lot of it is spread by word of mouth and personal connections. Of the early 80s D&D competitors, GURPS, Hero, Runequest, and Traveller all still have live fanbases today, so the #2 is probably one of those, but I have no data adequate to tell me which.

[Toadmaster]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

The problem with this argument is that it's based on personal experience' date=' and RPGs have pretty aggressive clumping behaviors, because an awful lot of it is spread by word of mouth and personal connections. Of the early 80s D&D competitors, GURPS, Hero, Runequest, and Traveller all still have live fanbases today, so the #2 is probably one of those, but I have no data adequate to tell me which.[/quote']

 

Very true, plus 20+ years of memory to fiddle with.

 

I was living in HERO's backyard and found Champions games few and far between but played lots of Aftermath, Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, Traveller and Carwars.

I bought Champions at Dundracon in '82 but I didn't see many HERO games until Justice Inc, Danger International and Fantasy Hero came out. Supers just didn't seem to catch on in my gaming circles and we played everything.

 

Anyone still have their Dundracon game listings for '81-85?

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Very true, plus 20+ years of memory to fiddle with.

 

I was living in HERO's backyard and found Champions games few and far between but played lots of Aftermath, Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, Traveller and Carwars.

I bought Champions at Dundracon in '82 but I didn't see many HERO games until Justice Inc, Danger International and Fantasy Hero came out. Supers just didn't seem to catch on in my gaming circles and we played everything.

 

Anyone still have their Dundracon game listings for '81-85?

 

For our groups Champions didn't really catch on till the summer of '83. I remember playing it after school and on the weekends during that time.

 

I didn't start going to conventions till after '84, and went to Pacificon mostly till the 90s when we started to explore the other cons. Never really did the Dundracon thing till they moved it to the Mariott in San Ramon.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

The little research I've done on market share shows that according to research done in the late 90s, out of about 2 million total monthly gamers, about 1.5 million of them were playing D&D, that White Wolf claims a steady market share of around 20% (which would leave about 100k monthly non-D&D, non-WW gamers in 2000, give or take), and that a typical run of a non-D&D, non-WW product would be about 5-10k sales. If Hero is on the high side of that, then maybe we have 20-30k monthly players nationwide?

 

If that's the case, I'd expect 6th edition to sell about 50k copies in the first year, and maybe another 100k over the lifetime of the edition. IIRC I thought 4th edition Champs sold something like 100k copies over the lifetime of its print run, right? Or are things not quite as rosy as I recollect?

[Jhamin]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

If that's the case' date=' I'd expect 6th edition to sell about 50k copies in the first year, and maybe another 100k over the lifetime of the edition. IIRC I thought 4th edition Champs sold something like 100k copies over the lifetime of its print run, right? Or are things not quite as rosy as I recollect?[/quote']

 

Well, I count among my personal friends several professional game designers. People who can actually do this full time, and I know they dream of selling 100K copies of a core book. The "off the record" discussions I've had with them about the economics of the RPG industry sort of terrify me.

[ajackson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well' date=' I count among my personal friends several professional game designers. People who can actually do this full time, and I know they dream of selling 100K copies of a core book. The "off the record" discussions I've had with them about the economics of the RPG industry sort of terrify me.[/quote']

My impression is that a successful release of a core book is often 5-10k copies. Being an RPG publisher is basically a hobby; many RPG companies have full time staff you can count on the fingers of one hand, and freelancers generally need a day job.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

My impression is that a successful release of a core book is often 5-10k copies. Being an RPG publisher is basically a hobby; many RPG companies have full time staff you can count on the fingers of one hand' date=' and freelancers generally need a day job.[/quote']

 

So, for a non-WW/WOTC product, what constitutes a "smash hit" as far as core book sales go? 25-50k?

 

And what would be a "dud"? Less than 3000?

[Vondy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well, I was talking about the 80's and early 90s when Champions was still young.

 

Magic tGathering pretty much killed RPGs for a few years. I couldn't get anyone to play anything but a stinking CCG. 3rd edition D&D reminded everyone that they actually liked RPGs. While I got some old diehards playing again, D&D and d20 still rules the roost among most gamers.

 

With 4e causing the same kind of animosity among D&D fans as Fuzion caused among Hero fans, I think that Other systems have a unique opportunity to prove that they are fun alternatives to D&D.

 

Tasha

 

Your post made me nostalgic. I realized as of this week I've been playing RPGs for 30 Years and Hero for about 19 years. I hope Hero does manage to win new recruits due to the 4E furor. But some old systems still make me giddy. Stormbringer, MSPE, and Gangbusters! are all still playable in my book (though Hero is like the One Ring to Rule Them All).

[Mostlyjoe]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I fight tooth and nail in my area to get more HERO games going. For a while I was a GURPS crusader...but I just feel in love with HERO's mechanics from 4th Edition on. (Though it did take me 5 years to grok the thing.)

 

I plan on running demos, Con games, anything to get people interested.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I fight tooth and nail in my area to get more HERO games going. For a while I was a GURPS crusader...but I just feel in love with HERO's mechanics from 4th Edition on. (Though it did take me 5 years to grok the thing.)

 

I plan on running demos, Con games, anything to get people interested.

 

A good way to get hack and slayers to play is to have pre generated characters ready for a combat heavy Champions game. I ran a Robot Warriors (Giant Robot Hero) game one convention using that recipe and had almost all of the players looking for Robot Warriors books after my game. Show them the fun of combat (which most players can get into), then give them the chance to RP between combats. Make sure you use their character's unique skills/talents.

 

The one thing that most d20 folk will notice is that they make their rolls more often and when the do miss the roll it's only by a couple of points on the die. This is far different from a d20 game where the flat probabilities make wide variations in the rolls more common.