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... armor, limits of limitations,etc.


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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

The problems are that defenses powers are too cheap (i know you disagree) and limitations stop working beyond a point.

 

That is intentional; HERO was designed for Supers / Champions - invulnerable men with laser beam eyes.

 

When you run it in HERO mode - you have to limit defenses a bit and limitations are everywhere, but you can't just let them stack on every limitation - there has to be a point of diminishing returns for the balance system HERO uses.

 

If you really have to get around that, then use Custom Adders instead of limitations - this subtracts points from the total rather than dividing.

 

Do you use Hero Designer?

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

I wouldn't play with a group I didn't get along with; I wouldn't GM for a group that didn't accept I was GOD for the next few hours of their lives :D

 

That's hyperbole, but the intent is sound: Rules are open for discussion and I'll entertain a player's interpretation of a situation, but ultimately, the GM's rule is law. A good GM will listen to his players up to a certain point, and at that point good players should stand down and accept the ruling so as to keep the game moving along.

 

You sound like the GM of the Fantasy Hero game I'm playing in right now.

 

I could easily bring up a variety of rules issues but I choose not to because he's driving over an hour to my house to run a game every two weeks. I'm just happy to be playing in a game. The fact that it doesn't line up 100% with my personal views on HERO doesn't matter (unless I was the GM).

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

Hero has been designed so that you get diminishing returns on extra limitations. That doesn't produce a perfect outcome, but on balance I think it's better than, say, the GURPS version, where limitations save a fixed percentage of the base power cost, and thus two modest limitations can add up to one enormous limitation.

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

I wouldn't play with a group I didn't get along with; I wouldn't GM for a group that didn't accept I was GOD for the next few hours of their lives :D

 

That's hyperbole, but the intent is sound: Rules are open for discussion and I'll entertain a player's interpretation of a situation, but ultimately, the GM's rule is law. A good GM will listen to his players up to a certain point, and at that point good players should stand down and accept the ruling so as to keep the game moving along.

 

 

Basically yes. I know AM very lucky with my group as everyone tends to be on the same page and we all are very accepting of criticism. We work with a shared vision of the worlds we want to play in but my implementation is pretty much trusted in the details. Our disagreements have never been deep and always resolved quickly.

 

I definitely could not tolerate ( I'm spoiled) some of the groups described in some of the threads on this board.

 

Thar said I don't think I can help you either. I'm having trouble really understanding your specific problem with the system.

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

Devil's Advocate for a minute:

 

Why bother with points at all if they don't matter?

 

They DO matter.

 

But they are not the end of Game Balance. Only the beginning.

 

I have yet to see an analysis regarding how defenses are too cheap.

 

If points matter, and should be the balance, make your arguement with math. SHOW me how they're too cheap.

 

I want a Defense vs Attack Analysis that shows they're too cheap. And don't pick a single power level to prove your point.

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

Devil's Advocate for a minute:

Why bother with points at all if they don't matter?

 

Thanks ! :)

And so why bother with a game where every effects are the result of spent points.

 

I wouldn't play with a group I didn't get along with; I wouldn't GM for a group that didn't accept I was GOD for the next few hours of their lives :D

 

:D

 

 

If you really have to get around that' date=' then use [i']Custom Adders[/i] instead of limitations - this subtracts points from the total rather than dividing.

 

I don't remember this Custom Adders rule. Is it in the main book ? (i don't find it)

 

 

Do you use Hero Designer?

 

No. Should i ?

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

Yes, you should, it rules. If you can justify buying it, it is the single greatest tool a HERO GM can have at his disposal - makes character creation incredibly faster, and is even better for changing VPP's on the fly or coming up with a quick spell, effect, or power.

 

Custom Adders work like the "flat point" adjustments of some powers. For instance, making a sense Targeting is not a +1/2 advantage, it is a flat 10 point increase.

 

For some powers in my campaigns, I put on "custom adders" of negative value for some things where I just can't make it work with limitations. This lowers both the ACTIVE and REAL cost so be careful.

 

I can paste an example if you'd like - Hero Designer has "Custom Adder" as an option for most every power.

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

One possible solution would be to enforce a mandatory 'Mana' Endurance Reserve requirement for magic users. Instead of restricting the spells that draw upon the reserve you just restrict modifications to the reserve itself.

 

I've typically done that in fantasy games. However, instead of using straight End Reserve (which is damn cheap), I make a second Characteristic that mirrors End itself, behaves just like it in terms of Recovery and such, but is based on Ego rather than Con. I also sometimes have spells cost Long Term End, which I've made a custom Limitation.

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

I want a Defense vs Attack Analysis that shows they're too cheap. And don't pick a single power level to prove your point.

 

3DK => 45 points = 10.5 BODY on the average. (using maximum rolls as a reference in a xD system would not be probabilistically honest...)

 

10 PD armor = 15 points.

 

(I guess this is why the full plate armor is as resistant as a armored car (delirious...).....actually this example leads to another problem = using DEF and BODY for items is silly. Think about a sheet and a cube of alluminium...)

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

re: Hero Designer

 

It is imho the best HERO investment you can make besides the core rulebook. It takes the drudgery out of the system and lets you create without worrying about the math.

 

Here's an good fantasy example of what it helps make doing easy courtesy of our own Thia Halmades.

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

...the ability to adjust the PD/ED spread isn't RAW' date=' it's either a House Rule or a Custome Advantage. We'll ignore that statment.[/quote']

 

You can certainly buy Armor without a 1:1 ratio between rPD and rED. As far as I can tell, the OP was talking about changing a construct, not changing the ratio when using it during play. In that sense it is not covered by the game system, which does not say what constructs you can build, change, or remove on your character sheet over time.

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

3DK => 45 points = 10.5 BODY on the average. (using maximum rolls as a reference in a xD system would not be probabilistically honest...)

 

10 PD armor = 15 points.

 

I guess this is why the full plate armor is as resistant as a armored car (delirious...).....actually this example leads to another problem = using DEF and BODY for items is silly. Think about a sheet and a cube of alluminium...

 

I do agree with this to an extent - I make modern armor much better than fantasy armor. If Full Plate is 10PD, I make class 4 Hard Armor 12, and an armored car would be 12 to 15.

 

But lets do some attack / defense math:

 

Basic attack vs. basic defense

Again, 60 point examples.

 

60 point EB vs. 60 points of non-resistant defense:

36 STUN, 13 BODY vs. 30/30 = 6 stun gets through on average - high rolls, more gets through, low rolls none, hit location can up to double it. A head shot of an attack of equal value to a non-resistant defense should still knock out a heroic level character.

 

60 point EB vs. 60 points armor

36 STUN, 13 BODY vs. 20/20 armor... 16 STUN gets through. Will likely CON-Stun a heroic character.

 

60 point RKA vs. 60 points armor

12 BODY average, x3 STUN = 36 STUN... here you see that the defense almost cancels out the attack, but some stun would still get through.

 

60 point AP RKA vs. 60 points armor...

2 1/2d6 AP RKA would be 8 BODY, 24 STUN vs. 10/10 armor - again, no real damage unless you use hit locations where a Head shot would deal 6 BODY.

 

----

 

In my opinion, "realistic" or "heroic" campaigns need hit locations for defenses to be really balanced vs. defense, since by default the balance between them is designed so you do very little BODY and instead just knock your opponents silly.

 

You can't balance attack vs. defense 100% on point value, but at the same time defenses are not necessarily too cheap.

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

re: the idea that defenses are too cheap

 

Combat success should not be the primary goal in Player Character creation.

 

I think a better goal is to make a character who can also be a hero in the absence of a clear combat opponent.

 

One superhero example is the ability to save innocent bystanders from otherwise mundane emergencies (fires, storms, car accidents, etc..). I'm sure there are examples that apply to supers as well as other genres.

 

It's always easier to make a character that optimized for combat than it is to make one that can also contribute to non-combat but still physical challenges.

 

Combat-Wombat might knock out Dr. Maybe more easily than Mr. Adventure because of his higher defenses but Mr. Adventure might be better equipped to actually thwart the evil plan started by Dr. Maybe after the combat is over.

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

As far as the Limitation cost difference, I've had similar discomfort at times, and it goes like this. Look at how a spell is built. The player wishes to improve the spell, so he suggests removing a Limitation and finds that it doesn't adjust the Real Cost. Is there a justifiable reason not to allow the improvement so long as it meets the campaign's spell guidelines? If not, why didn't this improved version of the spell already exist, and what reason is there for ever picking the original version of the spell over it? Doubtless the original version worked the way the GM, or an author, imagined it as working. Is that a good enough reason for hobbling the player's choice for improving the spell?

 

I don't know. And it does trouble me from time to time. Occasionally I ponder another parallel method of rewarding Limitations. For example, award a temporary amount of End for each spell of one point per -1/4 worth of Limitations on the spell, but only allow that End to be used for casting that spell, and make the bonus End recover only daily (effectively give it one Charge). I haven't tested that in play, and it's only one of several ideas I've tossed around to try to ease my discomfort, but.... :o

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

I do agree with this to an extent - I make modern armor much better than fantasy armor. If Full Plate is 10PD, I make class 4 Hard Armor 12, and an armored car would be 12 to 15.

 

But lets do some attack / defense math:

 

Basic attack vs. basic defense

Again, 60 point examples.

 

60 point EB vs. 60 points of non-resistant defense:

36 STUN, 13 BODY vs. 30/30 = 6 stun gets through on average - high rolls, more gets through, low rolls none, hit location can up to double it. A head shot of an attack of equal value to a non-resistant defense should still knock out a heroic level character.

 

60 point EB vs. 60 points armor

36 STUN, 13 BODY vs. 20/20 armor... 16 STUN gets through. Will likely CON-Stun a heroic character.

 

60 point RKA vs. 60 points armor

12 BODY average, x3 STUN = 36 STUN... here you see that the defense almost cancels out the attack, but some stun would still get through.

 

60 point AP RKA vs. 60 points armor...

2 1/2d6 AP RKA would be 8 BODY, 24 STUN vs. 10/10 armor - again, no real damage unless you use hit locations where a Head shot would deal 6 BODY.

 

----

 

In my opinion, "realistic" or "heroic" campaigns need hit locations for defenses to be really balanced vs. defense, since by default the balance between them is designed so you do very little BODY and instead just knock your opponents silly.

 

You can't balance attack vs. defense 100% on point value, but at the same time defenses are not necessarily too cheap.

 

The average damage of a 60 Active Point Energy Blast with no Advantages is 12 Damage Classes = 42 Stun, 12 Body.

 

You're lowballing the Stun Damage and High Edning the Body Damage in your examples.

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

The average damage of a 60 Active Point Energy Blast with no Advantages is 12 Damage Classes = 42 Stun, 12 Body.

 

You're lowballing the Stun Damage and High Edning the Body Damage in your examples.

 

Yeah, but I just assume all 3's on the dice for average. Easier than actual math :D

 

Besides, the result is the same either way: A defense of an equal value to an attack will not stop all of that attack; thus, defenses are not too cheap.

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

60Pts => 4dK => 42 Stun, 14 Body on the average. (not 12 nor 13, guys ! LOL)

 

Armor: 60 pts: 40 Resistant PD or 20 PD/20 ED or any other combos

Let's say the character has 5 normal PD (which, in a 60 pts context, is not huge...)

 

With locations rules and an average loc (chest, X3/X1)

 

40rDef version => STUN= (Body x3) - (N+R) = 42 - 40 - 5 = 0

20rDef version => STUN= (Body x3) - (N+R) = 42 - 20 - 5 = 17 STUN

 

40rDef version => BODY= 14-R = 14-40 = 0 (actually far under 0 ! It would need a 12dK/180 points attack to pass this armor on the average.)

20rDef version => BODY= 14-R = 14-20 = 0 (It would need a 6dK/90 points attack to pass this armor on the average.)

 

I suppose i should force players to spread Armor equally amongst PD and ED...

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

 

I suppose i should force players to spread Armor equally amongst PD and ED...

 

No. Just make sure your defense limit is lower than your attack limit - 60 AP attack maximum vs. 45 AP defense maximum. Also, Defense maximums should be per category - so basically your defense max should be max xD, not max AP - maximum of 20 points PD, 20 ED = 60 AP, 15/15 would be 45, etc. 30/0 would be 60 AP, but still be over the defense limit.

 

Also, don't allow layered defenses - no Armor + Force Field - highest value overwrites lower. This encourages damage resistance over armor, and higher base PD/ED over force fields and such.

 

In fact, Stone Skin should be Damage Resistance, not armor (changes base PD/ED to resistant defense instead of adding to it - lower overall total defense.)

 

Edit: Holy Edits, Batman!

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

No. Just make sure your defense limit is lower than your attack limit - 60 AP attack maximum vs. 45 AP defense maximum

 

I'm not fond of this kind of arbitrary limits. I'd prefer the available points being the actual limit.

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

a magician casting an armor spell isn't classic ? Come on...

 

The Classic, to me, would be the Magician casting an Armor spell which "shall protect thee much as a suit of fine mail, yet without encumbering thee in the least".

 

I then reason from effect to conclude that such a spell grants 6 PD/6 ED armor, which is good armor in the fantasy game's context.

 

If I want to enhance it, I need to consider what that enhancement means, in an in-game context. Suddenly, this "suit of fine mail" provides more defenses than enchanted plate armor. Sorry; no; rejected.

 

"It's Armor 12/12 since I have the points to buy that" is in no way Classic of any genre.

 

BTW, while you're buying up that 12/12 Armor, Hardened, costs 4 END per phase, MY wizard is researching his Spell of Exhaustion. Your armor won't stop his Ranged AoE Continuous END Drain. Once you're out of END, we'll send in the goblins with pointed sticks. Since they also have a Wizard, I guess they should have the same 12/12 Armor spell on them, or at least 6/6. Good thing for them you don't have a Spell of Exhaustion...

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Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

 

An example:

 

My old Brick, Hardcase, was practically immune to most damage. He had:

 

20/20 Armor

10/10 Damage Resist

75% Resistant Physical and Energy Damage Reduction

 

But 60 STUN still got 7-8 STUN through his defenses.

 

It is actually surprisingly hard to make an "invulnerable" character in HERO so long as you don't have a stupid amount of points to spend.

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