Fortune favours the brave

[Sean Waters]

Here's a slightly different approach to luck...

 

Luck, IMO, is a bit woolly. It is probably necessarily woolly because it can have so many varying effects but I think we could tighten it up a tad.

 

It also uses an add mechanic: how many '6's can you roll (well, some of the variants do). Would it not be easier to simply have a 3d6 roll? Certainly more intuitive for many (the chance of getting 'some' luck goes 1/6, 11/36, 91/216, 671/1296...or 17%, 31%, 42%, 52%...)

 

SO, you buy luck and get a 8- roll.

 

Hmm...that is the other thing - luck is not necessarily 'universal' - just because you are lucky in love does not mean you are lucky in combat. Also luck has variable effects - some people might be rather fortunate, others outrageously lucky.

 

So the base cost:

 

5 points for luck confined to a specific arena (I'm good at finding lost items - I always seem to look in the right place...)

 

10 points for luck in a broad arena (I always seem to say the right thing in social situations)

 

20 points for luck in everything

 

That gets you 8-.

 

Now If you roll and get 8 or less you have 'luck. Each +1 costs 5 points.

 

If you want access to 'outrageous luck' then double the cost of the whole thing (base cost and extra levels) and the margin of success of any roll determines how lucky you are.

 

Now the difficult bit - how to apply luck.

 

First off you should never simply apply a roll bonus as a result of luck - that sort of luck should be bought as a skill level (or damage add) that is luck based, and possibly NCC or on an activation.

 

Successful luck gives the player script control. Now I know this is very meta-gamey. The alternative is that the GM simply applies a 'lucky' result, but that can make the power hard to see in practice - how does the player know what is luck and what is script anyway (arguably that is an excellent descriptor for luck!).

 

Something should happen that you can not really build a power for - something that actually changes the story: a helpful NPC appears, a bit of building collapses on the villain - whatever.

 

With good results on 'outrageous luck', almost anything is possible.

 

Luck does not directly affect the lucky person's friends (in fact it can harm them) unless it is bought UBO.

[Sociotard]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

I'm not convinced. It is an intriguing idea, but I'm not convinced. The reason I say this is because "specific" luck is most easily represented with another ability. Luck finding things is a good PER roll with some limitations. Luck in combat is CSLs.

 

EDIT: I reread your post and you actually mention that you mean for this to grant Plot Control, not raw bonuses. I retract my opinion. I'm still not wholly convinced, but my earlier reason was flawed.

[jtelson]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

I like turning it in a script control power, that makes a lot of sense when translating Luck into a mechanic.

 

Moving it to a straight 3d6 mechanic works for standardising the system.

 

The only thing absent is discussion of when luck occurs with perhaps an adder or advantage that increases the frequency.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

I've just walked the dog and had a bit of a re-think - same principle, but refined.

 

1. 'Luck' (or Probability manipulation) becomes a conscious power that takes a half phase instant non-attack action. It can only be used once per phase. (Buy NCC/trigger/continuous for 'unconscious luck'). It costs 20 points

 

2. Luck can influence anything 'written' in the game: so it can not affect the mechanics of the game, just the script. It can not directly contradict anything that is 'definite' (eg it can not change the past), and the chance of it changing something specifically written into the script by the GM will be low - if the GM has decided there will be a guard on the door, then there will be - unless he gets called away and not replaced - which is pretty unlikely. You could even try to make the guard 'just disappear' but the chance of a human spontaneously vanishing in some freak quantum event would require something like -30 on your roll.

 

3. Luck can be used to influence outcomes for the person with the power, and that includes things that they do, for example, picking the best turn to get you to a destination. This MAY involve another person, for example, you may want a guard to push the 'open' button on the cell door by accident, or you may want your friend to pick the winning lottery numbers (because people are geting suspicious about you). Influencing probablity involving others in this way should usually involve an additional penalty as humans are inherently unpredictable.

 

4. Luck should never be used to direclty emulate another power - it is not a form of mind control, even though it can influence the actions of others.

 

5. Luck never influences mechanics, so it can not, for instance, increase your DCV. A lucky event might, however, prevent an attack from hitting you. This may sound like the same thing, but it is not: if your luck roll succeeds against the assigned penalty the desired outcome occurs. EG You are facing off against 6 VIPER agents and you are caught in the open. You can use LUCK to avoid all damage from their attacks, and the GM might say that is a -5 penalty. If you make the roll, the atatcks all (somehow) miss. If you fail they still have to roll to hit as normal. You could even try to have all their blasters catastrophically fail and blow up on them, but the chances of theat might mean -10 or even worse.

 

6. The base chance of affecting something with Luck is 8-, but that is subject to modifiers as follows:

 

+1: each 'level of luck' (10 character points)

 

+2 : influencing a likely outcome: ensuring that something unexpected (and unlikely) does not happen eg

+0 : influencing an equally probably outcome: for instance a coin toss

+1 : influencing a low probability even: for instance a 1d6 toss (up to 1 in 10)

+2 : influencing an unlikely even: picking a specific card from a deck (up to 1 in 100)

-3 : influencing a very unlikely event: guessing someone's birthday with no clued (up to 1 in 1000)

-4 : influencing increasingly unlikely events (each -1 = increased order of magnitude (x10))

...

-6 : influencing a one in a million chance

-7 : winning the lottery with a single pick

-12: making a major earthquake happen in an earthquake zone

 

-1 : each subsequent attempt to influence the same event after a failed roll (if it did not work it was obviously more unlilely than expected)

 

There is no automatic success or failure: if your roll is 18- or better you ALWAYS succeed, if the chance is less than 3- you always fail. This is the case even if you normally allow automatic success/failure.

 

So someone with 60 points in luck can have 12- luck, which means that they can win the lottery on a roll of 5-. That isn't bad...

 

Of course that can be grossly unbalancing, so it is definitely a STOP power.

 

Luck (or Probability Manipulation) can be used as a sort of 'wish' power.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

I like this Sean. I would like to proffer you an additional part to the luck. If someone chances his luck too often, bad things are mor likely to happen - luck is a fickle mistress.

 

I was wondering if you might add a dark side to your power. If you chance your luck and it is a small thing. You might set it at 0 chance. If you use the power for a small effect then on subsequent usage you get a bad effect on an 18 (one chance) - if you try to cause the earthquake you get a bad effect on 16 or more (12/3). This is additional and paid off when you do good deeds - the karma effect...

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

I like this Sean. I would like to proffer you an additional part to the luck. If someone chances his luck too often, bad things are mor likely to happen - luck is a fickle mistress.

 

I was wondering if you might add a dark side to your power. If you chance your luck and it is a small thing. You might set it at 0 chance. If you use the power for a small effect then on subsequent usage you get a bad effect on an 18 (one chance) - if you try to cause the earthquake you get a bad effect on 16 or more (12/3). This is additional and paid off when you do good deeds - the karma effect...

 

 

Doc

 

That's a good idea and I think the way to implement it might be with a special limitation on the Luck power - a sort of 'side effects' but specialised for Luck - not every use of the power will be karmic but it is such an expected 'backlash' it should definitely be there - and side effects 'as is' doesn't really do it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

I like it. Very much like Entropy in Mage The Ascension. It can still be admittedly hard to arbitrate, but can also be very fun. (Too rep-worthy as always.)

 

I'm not convinced the roll needs to change for the difference in effect. That doesn't mean I am against either the roll or the effect changing, but I think each can be considered separately.

 

It does seem a bit expensive too. I'd like to think about how it could still be used at the standard cost, as another option for existing characters and such. I suspect that might just mean starting at a different base level of effect/roll penalty for a given feat. Hmm.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

I like it. Very much like Entropy in Mage The Ascension. It can still be admittedly hard to arbitrate, but can also be very fun. (Too rep-worthy as always.)

 

I'm not convinced the roll needs to change for the difference in effect. That doesn't mean I am against either the roll or the effect changing, but I think each can be considered separately.

 

It does seem a bit expensive too. I'd like to think about how it could still be used at the standard cost, as another option for existing characters and such. I suspect that might just mean starting at a different base level of effect/roll penalty for a given feat. Hmm.

 

It is expensive

 

We can tweak the cost, of course, but I was thinking of two things:

 

1. Absolute effect - if it is much cheaper you can do some horrible stuff with this. At present 60 points gets you 12-. If we reduce the cost to +1 = 5 points then that goes up to 16-, which means that you can manage a 1 in 100,000 chance over 60% of the time...I suppose I would allow PCs to try and set things up so that the chances were maximised, and obtain roll bonuses that way...or we could reduce the base cost to 10 points...have to think on that one ALTERNATIVELY we could start the party at 10- and keep the bonuses/penalties as is....that is a straight 50% chance, and means a 60 point spend gets you 16-, but further progression is relatively expensive. That could work...

 

2. A high cost might encourage people to add limitations: for example someone might buy luck but ONLY for games of chance, or for picking the right person to talk to in a social situation, or such...

 

 

ALSO I was thinking of how I'd use this in practice: say someone who is lucky is playing poker.

 

They could use their luck to get a good hand - even the winning hand - but they would still need their gambling skill to bluff others into betting big. The idea is that this power would give you an edge - possibly a MAJOR edge but would not displace role playing or skill use - or other powers. For that reason (and to be in keeping with the type of power it emulates) it should probably be quite unreliable, at least for extremely improbably tasks (card games only really involve quite small probability shifts: you only need to be able to sort out a 1 in 52 chance to be unbeatable: which is a -2 to the roll...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

You could change it to a powers-of-two basis, and then allow it to be pretty cheap. Heh. **shrug**

 

I agree this should not be anything certain. It should affect probabilities in the long run so that a patient character with Luck will win eventually by relying on averages as long as he chooses somewhat favorable circumstances (like with your suggestion of "complimentary" Gambling), but in the short term especially it should not offer guarantees.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

ALSO I was thinking of how I'd use this in practice: say someone who is lucky is playing poker.

 

They could use their luck to get a good hand - even the winning hand - but they would still need their gambling skill to bluff others into betting big. The idea is that this power would give you an edge - possibly a MAJOR edge but would not displace role playing or skill use - or other powers. For that reason (and to be in keeping with the type of power it emulates) it should probably be quite unreliable, at least for extremely improbably tasks (card games only really involve quite small probability shifts: you only need to be able to sort out a 1 in 52 chance to be unbeatable: which is a -2 to the roll...

 

Your grasp of poker odds is inaccurate. Frequently, there is more than one card that will make your hand. In other cases, you will need two specific cards to win. It's even possible to have the worst hand at the moment and still be the favorite to win.

 

As a side note, there are over 8.06*10^67 possible ways to order a deck of cards.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

Your grasp of poker odds is inaccurate. Frequently, there is more than one card that will make your hand. In other cases, you will need two specific cards to win. It's even possible to have the worst hand at the moment and still be the favorite to win.

 

As a side note, there are over 8.06*10^67 possible ways to order a deck of cards.

 

Fairy Nuff, but that was not really the point: even if you can guarantee a win by getting the best had of those drawn, you still need skill to win big.

 

Also, you deal the cards one at a time though, and if you can influence what comes up next the odds are a lot shorter on getting the card you need. Until it is dealt, the pack order is a manifestation of Schrodinger's Cat. Influencing the order of the entire pack is going to be a lot more difficult than just influencing what is dealt next. That is 1 probability manipulation against 52 probability manipulations.

[Ice9]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

I think the cost is basically fine, given that it gives you full control over the luck - many characters will be getting it with NCC at the -1 or -2 level, or with other limitations. I could see reducing the base cost to 10 points, or starting with a 9- or 10- roll, but I wouldn't reduce the cost of levels.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

I've never really liked how Luck was done in the Hero system. I've always used my own house rules for it. This looks pretty good to me, Sean. I might even incorporate something like it into my games.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

I think I've had a different way to use Luck every time I've bought it, and each GM has had a particular twist on the Luck Mechanics.

 

I think, of all the Powers in the book, it's the one that says "Define the Chance, go." And while there's a "default" Luck just because you need somewhere to start it's a pretty loose set of guidelines.

[schir1964]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

Alternative Luck System (Talent?)

Luck allows a player roll the dice to see if the character is "Lucky" under defined circumstances. If the character is "Lucky" they gain some beneficial result based on how the Luck is defined.

There are two major divisions of Luck (Standard, Cosmic) and three levels (Minor, Major, Total) of scope within each division that can be purchased.

 

Standard Luck (8- Roll)

Standard Luck is restricted to things that affect the character directly or where the character is actively involved.

• Minor (5 Points): The scope of luck is within a narrow arena.
  Examples
  
  • I'm good at finding lost items. I always seem to look in the right place.
    
  • 
    

  [*]Major (10 Points): The scope of luck is within a broad arena.

  Examples

  • I always seem to say the right thing in social situations.
    
  • 
    

  [*]Total (20 Points): The scope of luck affects everything. [stop Sign]

  Examples

  • I live a charmed life. Everything I touch just seems to turn to gold.
    
  • 
    

Increased Skill Roll: +5 Points Per +1 Skill Roll

 

Cosmic Luck (8- Roll)

Cosmic Luck affects the character directly and indirectly. The universe almost seems to realign itself to favor the character.

• Minor (10 Points): The scope of luck is within a narrow arena.
  Examples
  
  • I usually don't lose anything. I seem to look in the right place or someone returns anything I might have forgotten about.
    
  • 
    

  [*]Major (20 Points): The scope of luck is within a broad arena.

  Examples

  • I tend to get the VIP treatment at social events. I get invitations to events that others with money can't even seem to buy.
    
  • 
    

  [*]Total (40 Points): The scope of luck affects everything. [stop Sign]

  Examples

  • I won the lottery today from a ticket I found on the ground yesterday.
    
  • 
    

Increased Skill Roll: +10 Points Per +1 Skill Roll

 

Modifiers

Friendly Immunity (+1/2): This advantage makes the character's friends immune to the negative effects of Luck.

 

GM Guidelines

• First off you should never simply apply a skill bonus as a result of Luck. That sort of luck should be bought as a skill level (or damage add) that is defined as luck, and possibly No Conscious Control or with an Activation Roll.
  
• A successful luck roll gives the player script control.
  
• Luck should result in something that you can not really build a power for and that may change the story: a helpful NPC appears, a bit of building collapses on the villain, and so forth.
  
• With good results on Cosmic Luck, almost anything is possible.
  
• Luck does not directly affect the lucky character's friends (in fact it may harm them) unless it is bought with Usable By Others or Friendly Immunity.

 

Concept by Sean Waters

 

Sean, let me know what needs to be changed/corrected. I would like some more examples so if anyone would like to contribute, I'll add them in as I get them.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[jaws]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

I developed a faith power based on luck... it looks like this:

Faith

 

I am inclined to change it to work on the 3d6 model though not entirely sure if the probability would work out similar in the end.

 

Synthesis:

Unidar faith is materialized in their capacity to do the impossible, independent of their true capacity. A faithful Unidar can take risky actions that are impossible, however if their faith shines trough their logic and doubt, the task is accomplished through divine providence.

 

Mechanics:

This is represented by a luck power that is capped at 1d6 per threshold(this is a number of total points in a character, it may vary by campaign) for faith based characters such as priests and half this for passive believers.

 

Build

Cost Power END

5 Faith: Luck 1d6, Difficult To Dispel (x8 Active Points; +3/4) (9 Active Points); Only When Serving The God's Purposes (-1/2), Visible (-1/4) 0

 

 

How to use Faith

These these dice refresh every chapter and may be used in one of 2 ways:

 

1. Leap Of Faith - A task that seems impossible but is plausible if the perfect circumstances were to occur at the right time in the right order.
   
   • The character must express his belief openly and direct the glory to Ohm and in general proselytize. (This doesn't need to be extend just clear)
     
   • Then the character must act in faith as if things necessary for success were already so.
     
   • The activity must involve some risk should it fail.
     
   • The character and allies must not implement any power outside of the actors natural unenhanced skills in the completion of this task.
     
   • The player rolls their luck dice:
     
     • Only a 6 is considered a success.
       
     • One success should be enough for most tasks but as a minimum a task should not to fail entirely.
       
     • Very complex, outrageously improbable or simply impossible things should require more than one success.
       
     • One success: Impossible task that is on the fringe of probability. There should be enough room for it to be explained away by an intellectual. Rowing across 50m of rapids in a broken boat
       
     • Two successes: Impossible task that is not only outrageously difficult but could only possibly happen if the right element or time were present. Finding red staff(a plant that only grows in the most auspicious circumstances) in a dessert Oasis
       
     • Three successes: A difficult task that requires a unique situation or something that might happen but never has. A Netherwielder (Summoners of alien creatures from another plane) being banished instead of executed by a Juris Dissonante (A special trial held against those who break holy laws) for wielding in Aldaria.
       
     • Four successes: This should be enough for a miracle like effect where impossible things are attainable that affect a discreet area or group. An elemental rift is closed in time to prevent a flux flood.
       
     • Five successes: Same as four but affecting a greater area or larger group. The stopping of two charging armies on each other by the singing voice of the actor and coming to an agreeable pact
       
     • Six successes should be capable of things only possible through direct divine intervention. The stopping of the sun so that a task may be completed in the light. The resurrection of the dead. The creation of something truly new.
       
     • Zero successes: Means utter failure of the part of the actors faith and should be role played as a moment of doubt.
       

[*] Any dice rolled in this way may not be employed with the second method for the rest of the chapter.

[*] The pool looses one die for any future task during the current chapter. (Failed Attempts remove dice in this fashion as well)

[*] The character may try another task with the left over dice loosing one die in this fashion each time until it is exhausted.

 

[*] The second method to use Faith dice by the actor is as a direct addition or subtraction to any roll made by the actor which involves high risk.

• Once the character has decided upon the action and rolled the character may elect to have their faith carry them through.
  
• The player chooses how many dice he will roll for that action and rolls them.
  
• The total may be added or subtracted from the original roll at the players choice.
  
• If the points rolled make the difference or enhance the success the player must stunt(cinematically describe) in a fashion that is supernatural and obviously of divine intervention and not of any skill or power of the character. These effects should always bring glory to Ohm(The god of this particular religion) and not the character.
  
• Once used in this way these dice are removed from the pool until the next chapter.
  

[grimdell]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

Personally I've always dismissed Luck as a single power and made them buy it as a multi-power with stunts. That's how most people play it anyhow, and when they get it, they tend to rely heavily on it, just like a power pool... *shrug*

 

I do like the Faith idea above my post...

[jaws]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

Personally I've always dismissed Luck as a single power and made them buy it as a multi-power with stunts. That's how most people play it anyhow, and when they get it, they tend to rely heavily on it, just like a power pool... *shrug*

 

I do like the Faith idea above my post...

 

I dont mind people not liking my Ideas, however knowing why would be interesting. Is it the general concept, the mechanics? Any suggestions?

What turns you off about it?

[phookz]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

I dont mind people not liking my Ideas, however knowing why would be interesting. Is it the general concept, the mechanics? Any suggestions?

What turns you off about it?

 

I don't want to put words in people's virtual mouths, but I think he said he did like it.

 

I do like the Faith idea above my post...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

I like the structure of the 'Faith' build. I think that is what I find dissatisfying about Luck: it is almost a power you can make up the effects of there are so many different ways to use it. Giving it structure helps define it in a given game - and it sounds like a very interesting power in this form.

 

 

---

 

 

 

I have a confession to make: I had not appreciated that Luck was a Persistent power: I'd assumed it was Instant (seeing Jaws use 'difficult to dispel' caused me to look it up). That may explain why I felt some of the dissatisfaction that I did, but the 'useable pool' of luck still irks me a little. I think Luck (or any similar power) works better off a more defined effect that you can then modify - like any other power - to do what you want.

[phookz]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

I like the structure of the faith build as well. But with Luck... I like it loose. One concern I would have with the more structured approach suggested is that it gives too much control to the player, and that makes it look a lot less like luck. Sure, there's luck on the die roll, but getting to choose what the effect is... that just doesn't feel like luck from a roleplaying standpoint.

 

Maybe it's just me - I like the GM having more control over the specific outcome. Granted, the current RAW for Luck are different from any other HERO mechanic - maybe there's a way to come up with a more internally consistent mechanic, but I'd rather see the GM ultimately in control over what specifically happens.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

I like the structure of the faith build as well. But with Luck... I like it loose. One concern I would have with the more structured approach suggested is that it gives too much control to the player, and that makes it look a lot less like luck. Sure, there's luck on the die roll, but getting to choose what the effect is... that just doesn't feel like luck from a roleplaying standpoint.

 

Maybe it's just me - I like the GM having more control over the specific outcome. Granted, the current RAW for Luck are different from any other HERO mechanic - maybe there's a way to come up with a more internally consistent mechanic, but I'd rather see the GM ultimately in control over what specifically happens.

 

That is the idea: I think it adds flexibility. You can always buy your luck NCC and on charges (which very effectively hands control to the GM), whereas there is no clear way of making luck more 'user controllable' under the current system.

 

I was thinking of a character who consciously manipulates probability to make 'scene and script changes', and found luck to be problematic: you wind up with the old EDM = Wish construct which I, well, loathe. The idea was to create a 'controllable, scaleable wish/probability manipulation power'. You can then limit it however you like: you can create the current version of luck from the more 'consciously controllable' version.

 

Luck does (or should do IMO) something no other power really does: changes the script of the game. It will always be a bit metagamey for that reason. I do not like the idea of luck being used to affect die rolls - that intrudes into the territory that should be occupied by skill levels with limitations.

[jaws]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

Personally I've always dismissed Luck as a single power and made them buy it as a multi-power with stunts. That's how most people play it anyhow, and when they get it, they tend to rely heavily on it, just like a power pool... *shrug*

 

I do like the Faith idea above my post...

 

I don't mind people not liking my Ideas, however knowing why would be interesting. Is it the general concept, the mechanics? Any suggestions?

What turns you off about it?

 

I don't want to put words in people's virtual mouths' date=' but I think he said he [b']did[/b] like it.

 

That's what I get for having too many tabs open and trying to read them all.

 

Sorry for the mix up. Glad you like it, any comments appreciated as I am in the world building process now and this hasn't seen light yet.

[jaws]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

I like the structure of the faith build as well. But with Luck... I like it loose. One concern I would have with the more structured approach suggested is that it gives too much control to the player, and that makes it look a lot less like luck. Sure, there's luck on the die roll, but getting to choose what the effect is... that just doesn't feel like luck from a roleplaying standpoint.

 

Maybe it's just me - I like the GM having more control over the specific outcome. Granted, the current RAW for Luck are different from any other HERO mechanic - maybe there's a way to come up with a more internally consistent mechanic, but I'd rather see the GM ultimately in control over what specifically happens.

 

That is why I turned it in to a Faith power instead of luck. Personally luck is in the dice of the player.

 

I think Luck (or any similar power) works better off a more defined effect that you can then modify - like any other power - to do what you want. I do not like the idea of luck being used to affect die rolls - that intrudes into the territory that should be occupied by skill levels with limitations.

 

If the player thinks his character is a lucky shot, well CSL's vs cover or vs hit-locations or whatever to luckily hit the right spot. Or any other enhanced skill, power, etc... luck is just SFX in my book. So I appreciate your view Sean. But as far as adding or subtracting to dice, I like the Idea of a finite random limited availability points to play with as written in the second faith section. SL's with activation don't really do it for me.

 

I like the mechanic for emulating open ended rare occurring all or nothing powers like my faith build.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fortune favours the brave

 

You might be able to emulate that with Overall Skill levels built with charges and other appropriate 'Faith Based' limtiations. Overall skill levels can add to pretty much any roll you might want to make - including damage, and the 'charges' limitation removes them from circulation once used, until the next day/scene.