Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

[Steve Long]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

A big question for me a this point, and I don't know if this is the place for it, but (yah I know, "should Wolf really be saying "but" after that?") will the Hero Designer for 6e be updating for the APG?

 

Due to the amount of work needed for the HD, I can see this being rather tedious for Simon (but not beyond him, oh the great work he does on all the HD goodness, wait I got a little something on my nose... ). And yet I'm torn because of the usefulness of some of those things, to what I'd want built... ya know?

 

I'll leave most of those decisions up to Dan, but typically he does a great job of incorporating optional stuff from supplements. Given the amount of stuff in the APG, and the wide amount of weird variants for some things (e.g., Mental Powers), he may prefer to skip some things, or may roll additions out over some period of time. After all, there comes a point where Abstract Rules Suggestion #14 isn't really that much of a priority compared to other stuff. OTOH, some of the major, easily-coded things (like Possession and Projection) I expect he'll get to fairly quickly.

[nexus]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

The main make or break options for any upgrades or new versions of Hero Designer for me will be the ability to toggle Figured Chars and add characteristics easily. I don't expect either of them to be high (or low for that matter) priorities unfortunately.

[Peregrine]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

"It-it's full of Awesome"

[archermoo]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

The main make or break options for any upgrades or new versions of Hero Designer for me will be the ability to toggle Figured Chars and add characteristics easily. I don't expect either of them to be high (or low for that matter) priorities unfortunately.

 

Well, adding characteristics is already trivial in the current version of HD, so I doubt that'll change. Removing "Striking Appearance" should also be pretty trivial, as again that kind of change is already pretty trivial in the current version.

 

Adding Figureds back in might be a different story. At least as a normal part of the interface. It shouldn't be hard to make prefabs for purchasing characteristics in groups. And if needed changing the cost of characteristics is already trivial, so I don't expect that will change either.

[GamePhil]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

The main make or break options for any upgrades or new versions of Hero Designer for me will be the ability to toggle Figured Chars and add characteristics easily. I don't expect either of them to be high (or low for that matter) priorities unfortunately.

 

Well, the HD update does include the option of building 5E characters (or at least, that was Dan's plan, but I think he said it in chat so I can't find a reference). I seriously doubt there will be a toggle, since part of HD is supporting and enforcing legal builds in the current system, but you never know.

 

But if you don't have the skills to get into the scripting and make alterations (not an insult, I just don't know what your skill set is), even if Dan doesn't do this I'm sure you can get someone on the boards to do it for you. A custom file that is a hybrid between 5 and 6 should be easy enough to do.

[Vondy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

Well, adding characteristics is already trivial in the current version of HD, so I doubt that'll change. Removing "Striking Appearance" should also be pretty trivial, as again that kind of change is already pretty trivial in the current version.

 

Adding Figureds back in might be a different story. At least as a normal part of the interface. It shouldn't be hard to make prefabs for purchasing characteristics in groups. And if needed changing the cost of characteristics is already trivial, so I don't expect that will change either.

 

Since I don't expect Dan to bother with such a toggle, it might do for a tech savvy fan to do a template with the modification. While those of us with a modicum of XML knowledge can do it easily enough, its easy to forget that editing the template is a power user function. The average end-user might have some trouble with it.

[archermoo]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

Since I don't expect Dan to bother with such a toggle' date=' it might do for a tech savvy fan to do a template with the modification. While those of us with a modicum of XML knowledge can do it easily enough, its easy to forget that editing the template is a power user function. The average end-user might have some trouble with it.[/quote']

 

Sorry, what I should've said is that the changes I listed as trivial are trivial from the POV of making that level of modification. There aren't options within the application to make those kind of changes, so they require rolling your own template files. Though the documentation for doing so is pretty complete, and is obviously being updated for 6e. I believe that Rod anticipates having it done shortly after GenCon, though I'm not absolutely positive.

[Wolf]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

I'll leave most of those decisions up to Dan' date=' but typically he does a great job of incorporating optional stuff from supplements. Given the amount of stuff in the APG, and the wide amount of weird variants for some things (e.g., Mental Powers), he may prefer to skip some things, or may roll additions out over some period of time. After all, there comes a point where Abstract Rules Suggestion #14 isn't really that much of a priority compared to other stuff. OTOH, some of the major, easily-coded things (like Possession and Projection) I expect he'll get to fairly quickly.[/quote']

 

Thanks for the info. I wasn't meaning the minutia of "Abstract Rules Suggestion #XX" LOL, I was more figuring more some of the large "this is new and useful."

 

More specifically I really like Possession, not that I'll ever use it, maybe for like a "Ghost in the Shell" or Hacking a really large mainframe, but anyway I know one could just do a custom power. But now I'm prattling, so my question was answer beyond my expectations. Thanks all.

 

As far as changes for a non-computer literate individual... yah, I suck, but I do have the idiots guide to Java sitting around here somewhere, I was planning on learning.

[GamePhil]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

The main make or break options for any upgrades or new versions of Hero Designer for me will be the ability to toggle Figured Chars and add characteristics easily. I don't expect either of them to be high (or low for that matter) priorities unfortunately.

 

Just to make sure: Have you bought the HD contract? If so, the upgrade is free in any event. And like I said, comes with the 5E template and a horde of computer savvy people that likely won't mind getting you a custom template.

 

If you haven't, nevermind.

[Mostlyjoe]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

I must admit that I want this book most of all...well I WANT the core 6E books. But this book is my next MUST HAVE...so to speak.

[nexus]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

Well, adding characteristics is already trivial in the current version of HD, so I doubt that'll change.

 

I don't find it trivial but I am not a technically minded person by nature. What I would want would be a simple point and click interface for handling it. If there is one I confess I've missed it.

 

Removing "Striking Appearance" should also be pretty trivial, as again that kind of change is already pretty trivial in the current version.

 

Removing it is not a biggie for me. Even when you use Com, such a talent might have uses. If not don't select it.

 

Adding Figureds back in might be a different story.

 

That's the big sticker right there.

[archermoo]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

I don't find it trivial but I am not a technically minded person by nature. What I would want would be a simple point and click interface for handling it. If there is one I confess I've missed it.

 

Nope, no point and click interface. For the most part Dan has coded HD to conform to the rules. In general the options from within the application are options that are already within the rules. Adding in house rules requires making changes at the template level. I was referring to the changes as being trivial in the context of template level changes.

 

So no point and click interface, but making custom templates is covered pretty well in the documentation. And once HD for 6e is out I'm sure there will be people who are more technically minded working on templates for changes like this.

 

That's the big sticker right there.

 

And it is the one I have the least knowledge of. There are certainly workarounds available as I noted in the post you quoted, but I don't think we'll know about whether figureds can be added back in as core functionality until HD for 6e is released.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

—rules for “attacks versus alternate Characteristics,” so you could create, say, an Entangle that works against INT instead of STR or a Transform based on PRE rather than BODY

 

—a new Mental Power, Possession, that allows a character to completely take over another character, including access to the target’s senses and memories

 

—expanded rules for Skills, including Skill Combinations, base times for performing Skills, and details on Skill modifiers

 

—a new optional form of Desolidification, Projection, that lets a character project some part of his “self” outside of his body (such as in the classic “astral projection” sort of ability)

 

—all sorts of additional and optional information about Mental Powers

 

—a new Power, Chucking, for when you need to throw large amounts of worked or unworked wood at your foes. While admittedly somewhat more special effects-specific than the typical HERO System Power, it’s a lot of fun and absolutely crucial for creating certain rodent-based characters.

 

—detailed rules for cyberkinesis (mentally or remotely operating electronics and machinery)

 

—expanded options for Change Environment that allow you to use it to create Suffocation effects, Stun a target without removing STUN damage, and remove or impose Advantages, Limitations, and Complications

 

—lots of new optional forms of Area Of Effect

 

—an optional form of Vulnerability that lets you choose harmful effects other than “take more damage”

 

—new and expanded rules for combat and adventuring, including Time Chart options, rules for Segmented Movement, and new Combat Modifiers and Combat Maneuvers

I think I just had a nerdgasm.

[Netzilla]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

 

 

And it is the one I have the least knowledge of. There are certainly workarounds available as I noted in the post you quoted, but I don't think we'll know about whether figureds can be added back in as core functionality until HD for 6e is released.

 

Actually, you can change the formula & base values for figureds under the current HD template system. So, unless Dan takes that functionality away, it should still be possible to go back to 5E style figureds.

[archermoo]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

Actually' date=' you can change the formula & base values for figureds under the current HD template system. So, unless Dan takes that functionality away, it should still be possible to go back to 5E style figureds.[/quote']

 

I know you can currently do it. The question is how is he removing it for 6e? Currently you have values in place for each characteristic to let that characteristic add to one or more others. Whether or not those values will still exist in the 6e version of HD is the question.

[nexus]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

If the optional rules for CE will allow for it to add Advantages I wonder if it will also be allowed to add bonuses to rolls as well.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

I know you can currently do it. The question is how is he removing it for 6e? Currently you have values in place for each characteristic to let that characteristic add to one or more others. Whether or not those values will still exist in the 6e version of HD is the question.

 

Well, those will still need to be there for the 5e template to work, so one would think you could mix and match but I could be wrong -- I have not even begun to look at that section of the manual yet. My current goal for having the documentation complete is Labor Day.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

I know you can currently do it. The question is how is he removing it for 6e? Currently you have values in place for each characteristic to let that characteristic add to one or more others. Whether or not those values will still exist in the 6e version of HD is the question.

 

If the formulae can allow fixed base values for "figured" characteristics, maybe the system will be reused as is for 6E anyway. E.g. instead of PD=Str/5, it can just be changed to PD=2.

[archermoo]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

If the formulae can allow fixed base values for "figured" characteristics' date=' maybe the system will be reused as is for 6E anyway. E.g. instead of PD=Str/5, it can just be changed to PD=2.[/quote']

 

That isn't the way it works. In 5e there are values available for each of the Characteristics that allow them to add to the other characteristics. In HD PD doesn't have a defined base of Str/5. Str just ads +1 to PD for every 5 points of value it has. The characteristics that add to the figureds drive their value, not the other way around.

 

The question is in the 6e templates if those values still exist and just aren't being used, or have they been removed entirely.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

That isn't the way it works. In 5e there are values available for each of the Characteristics that allow them to add to the other characteristics. In HD PD doesn't have a defined base of Str/5. Str just ads +1 to PD for every 5 points of value it has. The characteristics that add to the figureds drive their value, not the other way around.

 

The question is in the 6e templates if those values still exist and just aren't being used, or have they been removed entirely.

 

So change PD to a base of 2 and remove the bit from Str that adds to it. Seems the same to me, as long as Characteristics are dealt with in a generic way rather than having special logic for some of them.

[Simon]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

To answer the question on HD: the 6E characteristics were handled by:

 

1. Simply removing the figured components (e.g. "PDINCREASE", "PDINCREASELEVELS") from the template definitions. The 5E templates still have them and they are still available for use in custom templates, so, yes, you can create a custom 6E template that uses figured Characteristics.

 

2. Adding in new characteristics for the newly added OCV, DCV, OMCV, and DMCV.

 

3. Removing the template definition for COM (again, still available for custom templates).

 

The 10 available custom characteristics are still there and ready for use in custom templates....about the only thing that I can think of that hasn't been done (yet) is to add in attributes for the new characteristics to be based off of figured values.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

I appreciate that Chucking can tell us how much wood can be chucked, but are we not going to need another power to allow certain character types to chuck wood at all?

[Steve Long]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

If the optional rules for CE will allow for it to add Advantages I wonder if it will also be allowed to add bonuses to rolls as well.

 

Absolutely not; that would be a "positive" effect, which isn't permitted. To clarify, since my summary language was confusing: you can remove Advantages. You can impose Limitations. You cannot create "positive," beneficial effects using CE (aside from possibly negating someone else's CE, which is technically "beneficial").

[nexus]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

Absolutely not; that would be a "positive" effect' date=' which isn't permitted. To clarify, since my summary language was confusing: you can remove Advantages. You can impose Limitations.[/quote']

 

Oh, I'm sorry. I misunderstood.

[archermoo]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

 

To answer the question on HD: the 6E characteristics were handled by:

 

1. Simply removing the figured components (e.g. "PDINCREASE", "PDINCREASELEVELS") from the template definitions. The 5E templates still have them and they are still available for use in custom templates, so, yes, you can create a custom 6E template that uses figured Characteristics.

 

2. Adding in new characteristics for the newly added OCV, DCV, OMCV, and DMCV.

 

3. Removing the template definition for COM (again, still available for custom templates).

 

The 10 available custom characteristics are still there and ready for use in custom templates....about the only thing that I can think of that hasn't been done (yet) is to add in attributes for the new characteristics to be based off of figured values.

 

I even tested it out last night and it worked like a charm. Was going to ask to make sure you didn't mind me mentioning that this morning, but I see now that there is no need.