6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

[Wildcat]

I'm running a Heroic level game, and a few of my players had purchased Deadly Blow under the 5E Hero rules. We want to go to 6E, but the cost difference between the 5E and 6E ways of handling the newly-renamed Weaponmaster talent have raised more than a few eyebrows. As Steve has declined to answer any design philosophy questions, I thought I'd pose this to Herodom at large.

 

Since the cost for a die of killing damage hasn't changed, why is there such a huge cost disparity between the 5E version of Deadly Blow and the 6E Deadly Blow & Weaponmaster talents? Is there some additional capability in the new version? Have the damage rules changed in a way that makes Deadly Blow/Weaponmaster worth the additional points expenditure over the old way of buying limited damage dice? I know this is Hero, and we can buy things the way we want, and I know that I could institute a house rule that just says "buy it the old way", but before I do that, I'd like to know whether there's something I'm missing that justifies the cost difference.

 

While we're on the subject of house rules, if there isn't a good reason why Weaponmaster is so much more costlyover Deadly Blow, should there be? Are you planning on giving PC's who purchase Weaponmaster any cool perks for having bought it that way?

[ideasmith]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

I'm running a Heroic level game, and a few of my players had purchased Deadly Blow under the 5E Hero rules. We want to go to 6E, but the cost difference between the 5E and 6E ways of handling the newly-renamed Weaponmaster talent have raised more than a few eyebrows. As Steve has declined to answer any design philosophy questions, I thought I'd pose this to Herodom at large.

 

Since the cost for a die of killing damage hasn't changed, why is there such a huge cost disparity between the 5E version of Deadly Blow and the 6E Deadly Blow & Weaponmaster talents? Is there some additional capability in the new version? Have the damage rules changed in a way that makes Deadly Blow/Weaponmaster worth the additional points expenditure over the old way of buying limited damage dice? I know this is Hero, and we can buy things the way we want, and I know that I could institute a house rule that just says "buy it the old way", but before I do that, I'd like to know whether there's something I'm missing that justifies the cost difference.

 

While we're on the subject of house rules, if there isn't a good reason why Weaponmaster is so much more costlyover Deadly Blow, should there be? Are you planning on giving PC's who purchase Weaponmaster any cool perks for having bought it that way?

 

A lot of folks in the now locked 6E discussion forums felt that +1d6 HKA that added to any HKA was more useful -- and therefore should be more expensive -- than +1d6 to a single HKA. I assume that Steve Long increased the cost accordingly.

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

The builds for the talents are given in the Appendix to Volume 1 on page 447.

[ajackson]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

I assume Steve felt the ability to power up equipment (which you don't pay points for) is more valuable than simple increased damage. The cost looks reasonable in comparison to levels.

[Netzilla]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

I'm running a Heroic level game, and a few of my players had purchased Deadly Blow under the 5E Hero rules. We want to go to 6E, but the cost difference between the 5E and 6E ways of handling the newly-renamed Weaponmaster talent have raised more than a few eyebrows. As Steve has declined to answer any design philosophy questions, I thought I'd pose this to Herodom at large.

 

Since the cost for a die of killing damage hasn't changed, why is there such a huge cost disparity between the 5E version of Deadly Blow and the 6E Deadly Blow & Weaponmaster talents? Is there some additional capability in the new version? Have the damage rules changed in a way that makes Deadly Blow/Weaponmaster worth the additional points expenditure over the old way of buying limited damage dice? I know this is Hero, and we can buy things the way we want, and I know that I could institute a house rule that just says "buy it the old way", but before I do that, I'd like to know whether there's something I'm missing that justifies the cost difference.

 

While we're on the subject of house rules, if there isn't a good reason why Weaponmaster is so much more costlyover Deadly Blow, should there be? Are you planning on giving PC's who purchase Weaponmaster any cool perks for having bought it that way?

 

As other have already mentioned, there have been a number of folks that felt Deadly Blow was under priced in its 5E incarnation.

 

As far as comparing Weaponmaster to Deadly Blow, keep in mind that Weaponmaster works vs all targets while Deadly Blow does not. Also your character has more control over weather or not they have the appropriate weapon with them than if the appropriate opponent will show up in a given adventure.

[Ternaugh]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

I'm running a Heroic level game, and a few of my players had purchased Deadly Blow under the 5E Hero rules. We want to go to 6E, but the cost difference between the 5E and 6E ways of handling the newly-renamed Weaponmaster talent have raised more than a few eyebrows. As Steve has declined to answer any design philosophy questions, I thought I'd pose this to Herodom at large.

 

Since the cost for a die of killing damage hasn't changed, why is there such a huge cost disparity between the 5E version of Deadly Blow and the 6E Deadly Blow & Weaponmaster talents? Is there some additional capability in the new version? Have the damage rules changed in a way that makes Deadly Blow/Weaponmaster worth the additional points expenditure over the old way of buying limited damage dice? I know this is Hero, and we can buy things the way we want, and I know that I could institute a house rule that just says "buy it the old way", but before I do that, I'd like to know whether there's something I'm missing that justifies the cost difference.

 

While we're on the subject of house rules, if there isn't a good reason why Weaponmaster is so much more costlyover Deadly Blow, should there be? Are you planning on giving PC's who purchase Weaponmaster any cool perks for having bought it that way?

 

Okay, looking at Deadly Blow and Weaponmaster in 6E, it appears that there is no longer an END cost per die, which leads me to believe that these are modeled using combat skill levels with limitations on them, rather than using killing attacks. Note that I can't find anything in 6E that indicates that Deadly Blow or Weaponsmith now increase the base damage of the weapon, like the FH model.

 

JoeG

Edit: hadn't found the builds in the appendix, thanks Rod!

[Wildcat]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

The builds for the talents are given in the Appendix to Volume 1 on page 447.

 

Thanx that clears it all up - now why couldn't mr long have said that. It's a huge book havn't read it all yet.

 

Thanx again it totaly fits now, abd I can see the reason to make it cost more - in fact I too always thought DB was a bit cheap - I think the Cbt Skill lvls is a good way to model this

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Note that I can't find anything in 6E that indicates that Deadly Blow or Weaponsmith now increase the base damage of the weapon' date=' like the FH model.[/quote']

 

"Base Damage" doesn't really exist anymore. Now you're just adding Damage Classes together.

 

Which is why Dead Blow and Weaponmaster are built with CSLs adding Damage Classes to an attack.

[Alibear]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

has more control over weather

 

Deadly blow gives you control over weather under 6e? That's why it's more expensive.

 

[Ternaugh]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

"Base Damage" doesn't really exist anymore. Now you're just adding Damage Classes together.

 

Which is why Dead Blow and Weaponmaster are built with CSLs adding Damage Classes to an attack.

 

Oh, base damage looks to be alive and well in 6E2, at least for Heroic campaigns. Looking at 6E2 99-101, you'll see multiple references in the examples to base damage class for attacks, for weapons that have a STR Minimum. On 6E2 199, the definition of STR Minimum includes the information that usually weapons with a STR Minimum cannot more than double the damage classes. There is a GM option note that allows exceeding 2xbase damage, but suggests applying the full damage done to the weapon for breakage purposes (which would work really well for lances in FH, for example).

 

JoeG

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Thanx that clears it all up - now why couldn't mr long have said that. It's a huge book havn't read it all yet.

 

Talents aren’t actually a distinct game element — you construct them using Skills and/or Powers. (See the Appendix in 6E1 for a breakdown of how each one described here was built.)

 

(I agree it was a shock at first not to see the mechanics described in-line like in 5ER though.)

[Markdoc]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Glad to hear this - Deadly Blow was so grossly underpriced, that I had to ban it in my games: this sounds like a much needed fix!

 

If the increased cost is a problem for existing characters, do what I plan if we switch our current game to 6E. Rebuild the characters under 6E. Give the players the choice of dropping some abilities or just give their PCs the extra points up front to retain their existing abilities and then just dock them 50% XP until that's paid off.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vondy]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Glad to hear this - Deadly Blow was so grossly underpriced, that I had to ban it in my games: this sounds like a much needed fix!

 

If the increased cost is a problem for existing characters, do what I plan if we switch our current game to 6E. Rebuild the characters under 6E. Give the players the choice of dropping some abilities or just give their PCs the extra points up front to retain their existing abilities and then just dock them 50% XP until that's paid off.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I'd banned it too. I'll have to revisit it when I pick up 6E.

[Netzilla]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

has more control over weather

Deadly blow gives you control over weather under 6e? That's why it's more expensive.

 

[jaws]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

I thought it was under-priced too. I have had to seriously control, ban or increase its cost depending on the campaign. I know GM's need to police their game balance, but it shouldn't be a balancing act to get a core rule to work properly.

[Markdoc]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

I thought it was under-priced too. I have had to seriously control' date=' ban or increase its cost depending on the campaign. I know GM's need to police their game balance, but it shouldn't be a balancing act to get a core rule to work properly.[/quote']

 

To be fair, it wasn't a core rule, but a genre rule. The only place Deadly Blow turns up in the core rules is as power description: "Deadly Blow, defined as an HKA 2d6, Armor Piercing (+½)" - which is actually one of the ways I did it in my game.

 

If it had been left as a genre bit that might be appropriate for some games (it wouldn't be out of place in a high powered anime game, fr'instance, where pretty much everyone has super-killy weapons) that would have been cool.

 

Trouble was, Deadly Blow as introduced in FH, was so unbalanced that players were soon clamoring for it everywhere, so it soon became a "pseudo core rule". I am delighted it's been fixed.

 

cheers, Mark

[grump]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Okay, looking at Deadly Blow and Weaponmaster in 6E, it appears that there is no longer an END cost per die, which leads me to believe that these are modeled using combat skill levels with limitations on them, rather than using killing attacks. Note that I can't find anything in 6E that indicates that Deadly Blow or Weaponsmith now increase the base damage of the weapon, like the FH model.

 

JoeG

Edit: hadn't found the builds in the appendix, thanks Rod!

 

Repped. Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for (hadn't gotten that far in the book yet, either).

 

After thinking about this, I find myself falling in line with the consensus in this thread. The proliferation of Deadly Blow in my game served as testament to its cost-effectiveness, and we wound up imposing constraints on its use, too. Now, with the change in how this talent is modeled and the increase in base points, I think it's more in-line with my impression of how effective an ability should be, for the points spent. Thanks for you input, everyone.

[jaws]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

To be fair, it wasn't a core rule, but a genre rule. The only place Deadly Blow turns up in the core rules is as power description: "Deadly Blow, defined as an HKA 2d6, Armor Piercing (+½)" - which is actually one of the ways I did it in my game.

 

If it had been left as a genre bit that might be appropriate for some games (it wouldn't be out of place in a high powered anime game, fr'instance, where pretty much everyone has super-killy weapons) that would have been cool.

 

Trouble was, Deadly Blow as introduced in FH, was so unbalanced that players were soon clamoring for it everywhere, so it soon became a "pseudo core rule". I am delighted it's been fixed.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Your statements are all very true. Guess it was just misplaced and then over incorporated by players.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

I also never liked buying naked dice of KAs that could somehow magically add to any similar Power bought through a weapon. But there is another way of adding to any suitable Power. Namely Aid. I wonder how the costs would compare at this point. Let's see. How does this look?

 

Aid: 5d6 to HKA (Boost)

[30 Base Points]

 

Standard Effect: 15 AP/3 DCs (+0)

Reduced Endurance: 0 End (+1/2)

[45 Active Points]

 

Weapons Only (-1/2)

Costs End to Maintain (-0; see 6E1/CC p. 168)

Only Aid Self (-1)

[18 Real Cost]

 

Note that that is a little cheaper than the CSLs used to construct Weaponmaster. This is the equivalent of at least the 24-point version of that Talent, and could be made even cheaper if restricted to a particular kind of weapon instead of just "weapons only". But it is going to take a Phase to activate ("warm up" with your weapon I suppose; we could try adding Trigger if we were really motivated), requires GM permission on 0 End for a Boost, and should have some means of turning it off. I think in using it to construct a Talent, though, it would work.

 

Thoughts?

[Ternaugh]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

I also never liked buying naked dice of KAs that could somehow magically add to any similar Power bought through a weapon. But there is another way of adding to any suitable Power. Namely Aid. I wonder how the costs would compare at this point. Let's see. How does this look?

 

Aid: 5d6 to HKA (Boost)

Standard Effect: 15 AP/3 DCs (+0)

Reduced Endurance: 0 End (+1/2)

[45 Active Points]

 

Weapons Only (-1/2)

Costs End to Maintain: 0 End (-0)

Only Aid Self (-1)

[Real Cost: 18]

 

Note that that is a little cheaper than the CSLs used to construct Weaponmaster. This is the equivalent of at least the 24-point version of that Talent, and could be made even cheaper if restricted to a particular kind of weapon instead of just "weapons only". But is going to take a Phase to activate ("warm up" with your weapon I suppose), requires GM permission on 0 End for a Boost, and should have some means of turning it off. I think in using it to construct a Talent, though, it would work.

 

Thoughts?

 

The other difference arises when following the Adding Damage rules. According to a clarification from Steve, because Deadly Blow and Weaponmaster are built from skill levels, they are subject to a damage cap on weapons that use STR Minimum/Real Weapon (or if a house rule is in effect for that). Using Aid in the manner you suggest would add to base damage*, and would therefore allow more damage to be added from STR or levels.

 

So, if we had a stereotypical assassin character from that OtherGame, if he "backstabbed" using the 6E build with his dagger (and Deadly Blow), he'd do at most 4 DC damage (and would actually be unable to use a DC from the talent). If he had your build, he could in theory boost the attack to 10 DC (Weapon=2 DC, Aid=3 DC, Levels/STR can add up to 5 DC more). So, I think that it all depends on what you're trying to model.

 

JoeG

*Base damage doesn't really exist anymore--except when it does

[Markdoc]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

I also never liked buying naked dice of KAs that could somehow magically add to any similar Power bought through a weapon. But there is another way of adding to any suitable Power. Namely Aid. I wonder how the costs would compare at this point.

 

Snippage!

 

Thoughts?

 

Aid works fine - it's an especially good way to simulate a spell or power that adds damage to an attack, or a mighty blow that requires extra effort.

 

You can also use CSLs, or you can simply buy a larger HKA and limit it (real weapon, OIF or OAF etc).

 

There's multiple ways to simulate the "does more damage with regular weapons" shtick. Pretty much the only thing I never considered was "Buy another dice of KA and just add it to a different KA"

 

cheers, Mark

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Aid works but can get a little more difficult when adding into Attacks With Advantages.

 

CSLs add straight DCs and therefore are, IMO, easier to work with in that regards.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Aid works but can get a little more difficult when adding into Attacks With Advantages.

 

CSLs add straight DCs and therefore are, IMO, easier to work with in that regards.

 

Read the 6E rules for adding damage. Every single addition of another DC simply adds 5 Active Points now. Very simple.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

I am well aware of that change - I was one of the advocates that pushed for it in SETAC.

 

Granted, we didn't have to push very hard.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

The point I was making with Aid vs CSLs is this:

 

CSLs are adding Damage Classes, and therefore follow the Damage Adding Rules - 1DC adds 5AP, when looking at Advantaged Attacks.

 

If you use Aid, you're not adding Damage Classes, you're adding Active Points. If you rolled a 5 on your Aid, I wouldn't let that add 1 Damage Class, I would add 5 Active Points, if the Advantaged Attack - when the math is done - comes to 7 Active Points per Damage Class that Aid adds nothing in my book. It doesn't come to adding a full Damage Class at all, and therefore by the Adjustment Rules cannot increase the damage of that attack.

 

Hence - CSLs are easier, and quicker, and a lot lessy messy. 1 DC = 1 DC. 5 AP Aid may or may not by 1 DC when calculating them against Advantaged Attacks.

 

Taken further let's say you're Aiding CSLs; you roll a 5 on your Aid Effect, but Deadly Blow is built with 8pt CSLs, that Aid can't increase that because it doesn't have enough Effect.