6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

...If you rolled a 5 on your Aid' date=' I wouldn't let that add 1 Damage Class, I would add 5 Active Points, if the Advantaged Attack - when the math is done - comes to 7 Active Points per Damage Class that Aid adds nothing in my book. It doesn't come to adding a full Damage Class at all, and therefore by the Adjustment Rules cannot increase the damage of that attack[/quote']

 

Err...not 7 Active Points per DC. A DC is defined now as 5 APs. Unless you're talking about Advantages that don't affect how the target takes damage? In any case, 2 CSLs very well may not add anything to an attack's dice of damage either, because you do have to consider Advantages that affect how the target takes damage even with them. For example, a 12 DC HKA with +1 in Advantages won't gain any benefit from 2 CSLs (it'll still be 2d6).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Any major changes to the damage adding rules for Advantaged HA's and HKA's (STR and/or Martial Arts)?

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Err...not 7 Active Points per DC. A DC is defined now as 5 APs. Unless you're talking about Advantages that don't affect how the target takes damage? In any case' date=' 2 CSLs very well may not add anything to an attack's dice of damage either, because you [i']do[/i] have to consider Advantages that affect how the target takes damage even with them. For example, a 12 DC HKA with +1 in Advantages won't gain any benefit from 2 CSLs (it'll still be 2d6).

 

I'm talking specifically about Advantaged Attacks with Advantages that affect damage (like Armor Piercing or similar).

 

DCs will add on, especially at the lower level. A DC has ALWAYS been 5AP/Damage Class. Now it's just more logically including in the Damage Adding Rules.

 

They start to prorate themselves when you are adding DCs (from, CSLs for example) - but you can't just prorate the Active Points added on by Aid, you actually have to get that many APs in Effect on the dice. It is clearly spelled out under Adjustment Powers on this topic.

 

EDIT: Another thing worth noting - Damage Classes only care about Advantages that add directly to damage (6E2 p98) while Aid would have to add enough AP to add an effective DC counting all the Advantages on the Power. For an Attack with Armor Piercing + Reduced END: 0 END when adding DCs from CSLs the Attack acts as if it only has +1/4 of Advantages, when Aiding that Attack it has +3/4 worth. Big difference.

 

 

I never said you couldn't use Aid, I said Aid was more difficult to work with.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Any major changes to the damage adding rules for Advantaged HA's and HKA's (STR and/or Martial Arts)?

 

Yes. Massive changes. Your DCs now add no straight, but start to prorate their value as you add Advantages that effect damage to Attacks. +1 DC from a Martial Maneuver isn't going to add anything to an Advantaged 4D6 (12DC) Killing Attack with +1 worth of Advantages on it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

EDIT: Another thing worth noting - Damage Classes only care about Advantages that add directly to damage (6E2 p98) while Aid would have to add enough AP to add an effective DC counting all the Advantages on the Power. For an Attack with Armor Piercing + Reduced END: 0 END when adding DCs from CSLs the Attack acts as if it only has +1/4 of Advantages' date=' when Aiding that Attack it has +3/4 worth. Big difference.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I'll give you that one. Hmm.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Yes. Massive changes. Your DCs now add no straight' date=' but start to prorate their value as you add Advantages that effect damage to Attacks. +1 DC from a Martial Maneuver isn't going to add anything to an Advantaged 4D6 (12DC) Killing Attack with +1 worth of Advantages on it.[/quote']

 

Right. Except that a 12 DC Killing Attack with +1 worth of Advantages (that affect damage) is only 2d6. 30 Base * 2 = 60 Active = 12 DCs. Adding +1 DC comes to 65 Active / 2 = 32.5 Base = 2d6 KA

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Right. Except that a 12 DC Killing Attack with +1 worth of Advantages (that affect damage) is only 2d6. 30 Base * 2 = 60 Active = 12 DCs. Adding +1 DC comes to 65 Active / 2 = 32.5 Base = 2d6 KA

 

D'Oh!

 

Thanks for the catch.

[director13]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

I do have some concerns that this is the new, "easier to understand", method of adding damage.

 

Nobody ever said easier was necessarily easy, I guess.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

What concerns exactly?

 

15 STR + 1D6 HKA Sword + +2 DC Martial Strike = 3DCs + 3DCs + 2DCs = 8 DCs = 2 1/2D6 HKA.

 

1D6 Armor Piercing Sword + 15 STR + 2 DC Martial Strike = 8 DCs with a +1/4 Advantage = 2D6 Armor Piercing HKA.

Or ~20 Points/1D6 of Damage with 15 + 15 + 10 = 40 Points of Effect = 2D6 Damage.

It's a simple formula where you figure out how many Effective Active Points it takes to add 1 Damage Class, each DC Added = 5 Effective Active Points.

[Vulcan]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Okay, looking at Deadly Blow and Weaponmaster in 6E, it appears that there is no longer an END cost per die, which leads me to believe that these are modeled using combat skill levels with limitations on them, rather than using killing attacks. Note that I can't find anything in 6E that indicates that Deadly Blow or Weaponsmith now increase the base damage of the weapon, like the FH model.

 

JoeG

Edit: hadn't found the builds in the appendix, thanks Rod!

 

Or it could just be that Weaponmaster has 0 END built in...

[director13]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

The Aid math seemed a bit complicated, is all.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Ah, well Aid isn't part of damage adding so you don't have to worry about it there. Neither is it part of the Talents in the OP. So it's just as much of a pain now as Adjusting powers ever was.

[Ternaugh]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Or it could just be that Weaponmaster has 0 END built in...

 

From the appendix of talent builds, it's based on adding DCs through skill levels, so there isn't an END cost for the damage that it adds. And even though both Deadly Blow and Weaponmaster say that you can purchase multiple levels, doing so isn't really practical in most Heroic campaigns as the total DC are capped by the limitations STR Minimum and Real Weapon to twice the DC of the weapon.

 

JoeG

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

From the appendix of talent builds, it's based on adding DCs through skill levels, so there isn't an END cost for the damage that it adds. And even though both Deadly Blow and Weaponmaster say that you can purchase multiple levels, doing so isn't really practical in most Heroic campaigns as the total DC are capped by the limitations STR Minimum and Real Weapon to twice the DC of the weapon.

 

JoeG

 

Even then the weapon can do more than twice it's base damage at the risk of breaking.

[Ice9]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

as the total DC are capped by the limitations STR Minimum and Real Weapon to twice the DC of the weapon.

Does that rule seem odd to anyone else? I can - to an extent - see extra damage from strength being limited by the base DC of the weapon. But extra damage from CSLs? Given that those often represent skill in hitting more vulnerable places, why can you aim for the weak spot with a greatsword better than with a dagger? Now there are other explanations for CSLs, but not many of those are "extra physical force", so why the limit?

 

Even for DCs added from Strength, the rule doesn't really work. Brawndo the Barbarian deals 5d6 with his 25 Strength, but can only deal 2d6 if he wears 1d6 HA Brass Knuckles? The "durability" argument makes sense for something like a sword-cane vs a greatclub, but fails in more cases than not - weapon durability does not correlate meaningfully to base damage.

 

 

IMO, a better solution would be something like this:

Extra DCs from Strength and velocity cannot exceed a weapon's durability rating. A spear might have a rating of 5, while a greatclub has one of 10+.

 

This does mean an extra column in the weapons table, but you could also use a simplified rating such as:

Metal: 6, Wood: 4

Thin (javelin): -2, Small (baton): -2

Thick (greatclub): +2, Short (brass knuckles, punching dagger): +2

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

To keep things a simple as possible I'd wager.

 

Instead of introducing a another series of "this way, except when" rules exceptions into Damage Adding it's "only double when these two Limitations are applied otherwise skies the limit unless the GM says otherwise."

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Does that rule seem odd to anyone else? I can - to an extent - see extra damage from strength being limited by the base DC of the weapon. But extra damage from CSLs? Given that those often represent skill in hitting more vulnerable places' date=' why can you aim for the weak spot with a greatsword better than with a dagger? Now there are other explanations for CSLs, but not many of those are "extra physical force", so why the limit?[/quote']

 

Who says? I don't see CSLs as doing that, at least in the majority of cases. Unless they're used for a called shot, perhaps. I'd expect more that CSLs have to do with handling the weapon (or attack) more effectively, such that it does more damage wherever it strikes: hitting with just the right point of the weapon, using an effective stance, applying your strength efficiently, etc. Such differences may very well create more strain on portions of the weapon.

[jaws]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Who says? I don't see CSLs as doing that' date=' at least in the majority of cases. Unless they're used for a called shot, perhaps. I'd expect more that CSLs have to do with handling the weapon (or attack) more effectively, such that it does more damage wherever it strikes: hitting with just the right point of the weapon, using an effective stance, applying your strength efficiently, etc. Such differences may very well create more strain on portions of the weapon. [/quote']

 

I agree more precision should be handled with the hit-loc rules. So use those CSL's to hit the head instead of adding DC's

[Ternaugh]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Even then the weapon can do more than twice it's base damage at the risk of breaking.

 

Yup, though that then falls into "GM's option" territory. I'd definitely allow a mounted knight to surpass double the base DCs of a lance when performing a mounted charge (and to figure that the lance has a good chance of breaking), but I'd be less likely to allow it for a swordsman in normal combat.

 

By the way, how is weapon PD/ED and BODY determined now?

 

JoeG

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

I would assume a weapon falling under the STR Min+Real Weapon rules would also be using Focus, and therefore the PD/ED/Body of the Weapon is governed by the Focus Rules for such things.

[director13]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Does that rule seem odd to anyone else? I can - to an extent - see extra damage from strength being limited by the base DC of the weapon. But extra damage from CSLs? Given that those often represent skill in hitting more vulnerable places, why can you aim for the weak spot with a greatsword better than with a dagger? Now there are other explanations for CSLs, but not many of those are "extra physical force", so why the limit?

 

 

This might be a Heroic v. Superheroic assumption about CSLs thing, because I agree with you, especially without another handy way to get through armor at the Heroic level (which is where I play).

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Deadly blow is a talent, which means it is simply a system construct, prettied up. You don't have to build it that way: all talents are really just pre-packaged example ideas.

 

First off you might consider disallowing, in a given campaign, the 'deadly blow' talent for any weapon which has a STR minimum of more than half your STR on the basis that only weapons that can be easily wielded can be used with the required precision.

 

Another way to do it might be to re-build completely and have (say) a naked armour piercing advantage - that way you can circumvent armour without actualy ramping up the damage per se.

 

You could limit the extra damage so that it doesn't cause damage, just 'neutralises' armour.

 

...I'm sure you can think of many other examples.

 

Hero's openess can lead to inbalance in itself: the important thing is to decide what you want to work in your campaign and then build the campaign rules, talents, powers and characters so that they realise your vision.

 

More work, but better results.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

Hmm. 6E2(C&A) p. 100 under Methods of Adding Damage/Movement states pretty generally that if the Body done by a weapon exceeds three times the base DCs of the weapon, the weapon breaks. Why not just extend that in appropriate campaigns to adding damage in general (Str, CSLs, movement, maneuvers, etc.)? If you're using a weapon at its utmost limit (twice the base DCs) and score a really good hit (half again the expected Body damage; 2*3/2=3), I don't see it as unreasonable that the weapon breaks (or at least is damaged to the point where it will have decreased effectiveness and needs to be repaired). Wooden weapons can split or break, metal weapons can dent, be dulled, or even chip when they hit bone or armor, any of them can probably develop a problem at the grip/handle/joins, etc.

[Markdoc]

Re: 6E: Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and Killing dice

 

I would assume a weapon falling under the STR Min+Real Weapon rules would also be using Focus' date=' and therefore the PD/ED/Body of the Weapon is governed by the Focus Rules for such things.[/quote']

 

Actually, one of my house rules is that free equipment has the BOD and DEF appropriate for an object made of that material. Otherwise weapons in particular become very fragile. A typical sword, for example has 20 active points - giving it DEF 4 and 1 BOD. Meaning in turn, it can be easily shattered by a single blow (at least in 5ER: I don't know if the foci rules are the same in 6E).

 

Given that a sword is typically made out of tempered steel, I give it DEF8: not indestructible by any means, but not so fragile either.

 

cheers, Mark