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Re: Disappointment

 

I keep seeing this meme that somehow Cryptic 'suckered' people with using the Champions background while not developing a computer game that provides the same or similar complexity of the rpg. This is not a fair criticism, as Cryptic has always been clear that the MMO would not be using the same rules system. I've followed the development of the game since they announced it and found this always to be clear.

 

I can understand if someone is disappointed that it does not have this level of complexity, but to describe Cryptic's action in such negative terms isn't cricket.

 

I will concur that the game is so far half-baked. Between buggy and limited missions, lopsided powers and subsequent adjustments, incomplete economy and crafting, occasional server crashes and other wonkiness I get the impression that Cryptic got pushed to release sooner than they wanted. OTOH what I see so far makes me confident that the game will continue to develop and mature, and I don't reget my lifetime membership in the least.

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Re: Disappointment

 

My major instance of this is that they simply refuse to consider the idea of character disadvantages.

 

Actually, they did consider disadvantages for quite a while, and spoke several times about the things they were thinking of including. But as with many things in MMO development, it ended up not making it to the final cut. The main issue I would see regarding disadvantages is this: How do you keep them from being mandatory and game breaking? Do you get a free power for every disadvantage? Are you instead _required_ to take a disadvantage? And if you _do_ take a disadvantage, such as taking extra damage from heat attacks, how do you keep that person from simply avoiding all mobs that use heat attacks and getting free power? It isn't an RPG where you are subjected to whatever foes that your GM decides you will face. And so since a disadvantage that isn't a disadvantage isn't worth any points, it got dropped. In its place are various advantages on individual powers that make them both stronger and weaker in certain circumstances, an utility that I assume they will continue to expand upon.

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Re: Disappointment

 

I have been playing Champions since the 80s, I still run a campaign once a month. I wanted to voice my disappointment in Cryptic's supposed rendition of the Champions RPG. I think they failed miserably, the graphics look like poor Silver Age comics and the game system is not truly customizable (which is where Champions the RPG succeeded. HERO had a great product for a great opportunity in the MMO world. And Cryptic destroyed its potential.

 

I am starting to believe Cryptic needed to slap a title on top of their game when Marvel quit them and came to HERO to save the day.

 

I don't know if the developers did not understand the game system or just did not care, but I am truly disappointed.

 

I am sorry, I was so upset with it I wanted to voice my opinion here. Oh well, I still have the RPG and my friends.

 

I wanted to go back to the original post.

 

I have played the Champions PnP, but only a few times and that way back in the early 90's. I was wondering what aspects of the PnP game you are most dissapointed not seeing in CO?

 

I remember one thing, I made a character called Blindside. Hence, he was blind (I was big into Daredevil then). I remember you could get some kind of bonus for having handicaps, either physical or mental or other. I don't really remember how it all worked, but I was really intregued by the idea.

 

I always thought that if I ever created a RPG, instead of rolling up stats, everyone would start with a set amount and distribute them to fit their class. They could even take negatives (this would represent handicaps) to really bolster something else. I still think this would be a great concept for a game. Talk about your min-max factor!

 

Obviously it's too late for Cryptic to add something like this, but what other things could they implememnt from the Tabletop RPG to CO?

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Re: Disappointment

 

Actually' date=' they did consider disadvantages for quite a while, and spoke several times about the things they were thinking of including. But as with many things in MMO development, it ended up not making it to the final cut. The main issue I would see regarding disadvantages is this: How do you keep them from being mandatory and game breaking?[/quote']

 

Disadvantages in HERO games has never been mandatory. That's one of the strengths of it. You choose. In this case, however, Cryptic took the choice from the players and decided a 'no' before even giving it the consideration it deserved.

 

And disadvantages need not be game-breaking. How is having a DNPC any different that having a nemesis?

Would having your character take 15% more from fire attacks via a disadvantage be any more game breaking than having gear (as currently exists in the game) that can mitigate 50% of all physical attacks?

And I think that figuring out a fair trade for such disadvantages is a simple case of number crunching.

 

If you suffer 15% more from a specific attack type, then offer a similar capability to do 15% more damage to a specific element or game effect. Or maybe even scale it down more or less depending on the frequency that the power is seen in the game universe. (They populate the world, so they know the exact numbers - all it takes is a simple SQL query).

 

If you take a DNPC, the advantage is that you are given more in-game quests - ie more chance for XP.

 

There are a number of disads that could be brought into the game this way. It's a simple case of "Well, we wanted the game to be Marvel, but we got stuck with Hero Games, so we'll make the game look and feel as Marvel as we can, while using the Hero skin".

 

If you do take a disadvantage such as taking extra damage from heat attacks' date=' how do you keep that person from simply avoiding all mobs that use heat attacks and getting free power? It isn't an RPG where you are subjected to whatever foes that your GM decides you will face. And so since a disadvantage that isn't a disadvantage isn't worth any points, it got dropped. [/quote']

 

It's amazingly simple to make an advantage stick. If you have quests that require a person fight the fire mobs, then how can he avoid anything?

 

If the person avoids those quests, then he is penalized by the xp loss of not doing them (and the possible chained quests from the original), and of the possible gear he might have earned. If he doesn't avoid the mobs, the fight is more challenging. So, that's a disad that costs him whether he avoids the mobs or not.

 

Geeze, have these people ever played pen and paper before? The universe is pre-populated for them, the work is half-done. Even a moderately compenent GM in HERO knows that a disad is always a disad when you control the list of possible disads to those you can police!

 

They have the universe populated, know specifically how many creatures populate it (and can via a SQL query know the same, even as they add new content), and from which power sets they are built. The job couldn't be any easier to calculate a fair tradeoff for the disadvantages.

 

Champions Online's idea of power advantages are very dissimilar to the ones in Hero Games, have no logical way to calculate their value except via using them, and worse still are subject to constant change as the game designers decide that a specific power/advantage combination might be too powerful. They refuse to share the way they calculate damage for powers (and while this might contribute to min/maxing, it'd certainly keep the exploits to a minumum, because people would report on issues, kinda like they did during BETA.)

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Re: Disappointment

 

I keep seeing this meme that somehow Cryptic 'suckered' people with using the Champions background while not developing a computer game that provides the same or similar complexity of the rpg.

 

It's not a meme. It's people who understand the concept of "bait and switch" bitching about it.

 

 

This is not a fair criticism' date=' as Cryptic has always been clear that the MMO would not be using the same rules system. I've followed the development of the game since they announced it and found this always to be clear.[/quote']

 

Really, on the label of the game box, they lead me to believe that "Champions" is the crux of the game. They use graphics that depict characters from the PnP game, and tout customizability, etc. and even dedicate a section of their web page to the pen and paper game.

 

If you were someone who picked it up off the shelf, and not someone who followed Crptic's transition from Marvel Online to Champions Online, then how would you know that this game wasn't actually using ANY of the Champions rules, but instead, using a different set of rules that so radically changed the experience as to be a wholly different game?

 

They wouldn't. They'd think they were getting something that they are not. We call it 'bait and switch' for a reason.

 

I can understand if someone is disappointed that it does not have this level of complexity' date=' but to describe Cryptic's action in such negative terms isn't cricket.[/quote']

 

It has immense complexity, in places that it doesn't need it. It has pitched over 20-years of playtested HERO games rules in favor of ones that are literally so similar to the ones that they had planned for Marvel Online that only the labels are different. And worse still, the person designing a character has no idea what characteristics mean to his build, and a flawed system to correct the mistakes made. And yet to add even more to this bucket of failure is that there are arbitrary caps to your super abilities that strip away the very concepts that allow one character to stand out, or to be truly unique from others. It seems like the goal is to force everyone to have characters with the same damage output, even if it means stripping them of any sense of "character". The only character you seem to be able to give to a CO character is the costume.

 

I have actually been very generous to Cryptic. I *am* a programmer by trade. I understand the limits of computer environments, and I'd be the first to tell you that trying to impliment every aspect of the Hero Games ruleset into an MMO would be a train wreck. However, some considerations should have been made that were taken off the table way too soon.

 

 

I will concur that the game is so far half-baked. Between buggy and limited missions' date=' lopsided powers and subsequent adjustments, incomplete economy and crafting, occasional server crashes and other wonkiness I get the impression that Cryptic got pushed to release sooner than they wanted. OTOH what I see so far makes me confident that the game will continue to develop and mature, and I don't reget my lifetime membership in the least.[/quote']

 

Honestly, the bugs are the most forgivable parts to me. So, it's released with a little less endgame content than I'd like, and so a few quests are still broken. Those are things that time will fix.

 

What is broken is the attitude that as they have stated time and time again "pen and paper doesn't translate to computer"

 

If that were the case, they'd be missing out on a host of products which did a wonderful job, and managed it years before with great technical success.

 

Dungeons and Dragons ring a bell?

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Re: Disappointment

 

As I've said, I understand people being disappointed with differences between the MM and the PnP game, and reasonably using that to guide their decision to not purchase the game or to cancel their subscription. I can understand your opinion that Cryptic may not have explored avenues of approximating the PnP rules in the MMO, and can even agree that Cryptic probably had a significant time developing a game system for Marvel before they parted ways, and used those materials in developing CO.

 

My issue is with folks who cry shenigans on the part of Cryptic by using misrepresenting their product. First, bait-and-switch does not apply as that involves a seller offering something at an attractively low price and then replacing it with something different. Second, looking at the box right here, nowhere does it state it is based on the PnP game. It doesn't ever refer to Hero games of DoJ.The only association is with the name Champions and image similarities. As the game world is set on the Champions Universe, these are quite appropriate to use.

 

Someone who just picked up the box and bought based on that information alone would IMO not have any right to call foul, anymore than would someone who bought a ticket to the Marvel movies such as Blade, X-Men/Wolverine, or Daredevil/Electra. They might not be happy with the adaption, but never-the-less the change in format requires adaption by the creators. If the consumer makes no attempt to educate themselves beforehand, opne hopes they will be better prepared next time.

 

It seems to me you want to paint Cryptic with a snake oil brushstroke. I say you're wrong.

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Re: Disappointment

 

As I've said' date=' I understand people being disappointed with differences between the MM and the PnP game, and reasonably using that to guide their decision to not purchase the game or to cancel their subscription. I can understand your opinion that Cryptic may not have explored avenues of approximating the PnP rules in the MMO, and can even agree that Cryptic probably had a significant time developing a game system for Marvel before they parted ways, and used those materials in developing CO.[/quote']

 

Are you some sort of legal guy or something? There is no opinion here. Cryptic simply didn't explore the avenues. I have cobbled together simple systems in VBasic that better approximated the rules in a "live" environment as a hobby. The fact that they chose to use the Marvel content to develop CO is unarguable. I would be less bothered by it had they simply chosen to involve at least a few pnp enthusiasts in the development cycle if they were going to sell a product based in a pnp universe.

 

 

My issue is with folks who cry shenigans on the part of Cryptic by using misrepresenting their product. First' date=' bait-and-switch does not apply as that involves a seller offering something at an attractively low price and then replacing it with something different.[/quote']

 

 

Once again, you quote a legal definition, rather than the inferred meaning here, but even you must admit that offering the pnp universe in an MMO would have been something that people would have paid hundreds of dollars to get (and for those of us who got the lifetime subscription, we DID) - and instead we were offered a considerably inferior product.

 

Second' date=' looking at the box right here, nowhere does it state it is based on the PnP game. It doesn't ever refer to Hero games of DoJ.The only association is with the name Champions and image similarities. As the game world is set on the Champions Universe, these are quite appropriate to use.[/quote']

 

Before the game ever went live, there was a webpage dedicated to the pnp game. One would be an idiot not to infer that such a page was not intended to lure in the fans of the pnp game. The box has pictures of iconic characters on it. I would assume from the box that it had something to do with the orginal universe. The only similarity is the lore and the skins, and people don't usually buy a product for it's skin.

 

Someone who just picked up the box and bought based on that information alone would IMO not have any right to call foul, anymore than would someone who bought a ticket to the Marvel movies such as Blade, X-Men/Wolverine, or Daredevil/Electra. They might not be happy with the adaption, but never-the-less the change in format requires adaption by the creators. If the consumer makes no attempt to educate themselves beforehand, opne hopes they will be better prepared next time.

 

It seems to me you want to paint Cryptic with a snake oil brushstroke. I say you're wrong.

 

 

And I say you are.

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Re: Disappointment

 

And the wheels go 'round and 'round. Cryptic hasn't hid or misrepresented anything in my opinion, from their announcement of developing CO, through the development process and in their launch marketing and release. Your examples demonstrate only why you don't support the final product. It's not what you wanted. Fair enough. But they sold what they advertised, and that's no bait-and-switch, however you define it.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Are you some sort of legal guy or something? There is no opinion here. Cryptic simply didn't explore the avenues. I have cobbled together simple systems in VBasic that better approximated the rules in a "live" environment as a hobby. The fact that they chose to use the Marvel content to develop CO is unarguable. I would be less bothered by it had they simply chosen to involve at least a few pnp enthusiasts in the development cycle if they were going to sell a product based in a pnp universe.

 

Well then you should be happy. There are many people at Cryptic who have been fans of the Hero system and Champions for quite some time. There is even one instance that I'm aware of that part of a person's interview process included questioning them about their knowledge of the PnP game.

 

You should make sure you know what you are talking about before you make false accusations.

 

Before the game ever went live, there was a webpage dedicated to the pnp game. One would be an idiot not to infer that such a page was not intended to lure in the fans of the pnp game.

 

Actually it was there to lure people interested in the MMO to the PnP game.

 

The box has pictures of iconic characters on it. I would assume from the box that it had something to do with the orginal universe. The only similarity is the lore and the skins' date=' and people don't usually buy a product for it's skin.[/quote']

 

It only makes sense that it has pictures of the iconic characters on it, since they own the rights to those characters. Note: They didn't purchase a license to use them in a computer game. They bought the Champions Universe IP. The folx at Hero/DoJ have licensed from Cryptic the rights to publish PnP game books using the Champions Universe. Just as Steve, Darren, et al. made changes to the Champions Universe when they bought the IP, the folx at Cryptic are making their own changes.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Very interestink. Still' date=' I never cared for Guild Wars, and I don't see how DCUO could be much better. It's just a matter of financials. Without a steady income, it's hard to justify high quality expansions, and expansions always seem to bring in less money than a monthly fee.[/quote']

Well it is being made by SOE, who does have plenty of other games giving them a steady income. Still not sure about this though, when they tried their Adventure Packs in Everquest 2, they didn't go over that well.

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Re: Disappointment

 

It's amazingly simple to make an advantage stick. If you have quests that require a person fight the fire mobs, then how can he avoid anything?

 

By dropping them, getting other missions, waiting till they out level them, get other people to complete them, avoiding contacts that give those missions, not taking missions that sound like it might involve them. The ways go on.

 

The only way to make a disadvantage stick would be to stop them playing the rest of the game until they completed the "Disadvantage" mission. Somehow I don't see that as a great selling point for any game ;)

 

Geeze' date=' have these people ever played pen and paper before? [/quote']

 

Unfortunately the MMO is a very different animal. In the pnp world you can always find other ways to complete the mission. In MMOs you get your xp by killing things. :(

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Re: Disappointment

 

By dropping them' date=' getting other missions, waiting till they out level them, get other people to complete them, avoiding contacts that give those missions, not taking missions that sound like it might involve them. The ways go on.[/quote']

 

If all the steps you mention don't count as a disadvantage, then we have drastically different opinions of what disadvantage means.

 

 

The only way to make a disadvantage stick would be to stop them playing the rest of the game until they completed the "Disadvantage" mission. Somehow I don't see that as a great selling point for any game ;)

 

Once again, not true. How is having a DNPC any different than having a henchman? The henchman mechanic is a selling point, not something they hide from the user.

 

 

Unfortunately the MMO is a very different animal. In the pnp world you can always find other ways to complete the mission. In MMOs you get your xp by killing things. :(

 

If you are gaining substantial XP from kills in CO, then you are doing it wrong. One of the few places CO has actually gotten it right is in creating missions as the primary source of XP. And creative use of powers is the same as brute force rushing in and killing things.

 

As I stated in my very first post, CO is a mixed bag. While I find much to like, there are some substantive reasons for dislike. Regardless what others may say about CO never claiming that they were basing their game on the pen and paper game, all I need to do is wait for those little tips that pop up between zone loads to have all the proof I need.

 

Amongst the ones that say that IronClad was a participant in the Malva games, there is one that says "Champions Online is based on the pen and paper game"

 

That's a mighty claim, and one that is completely untrue. It is completely fair to say "based IN" which is true, but to say "based ON" is like saying that "Harry Potter" is based on "Charmed".

 

If there are any pen and paper gamers at CO development team, their voices have been stifled. There is no indication of the pen and paper game having the slightest influence on the CO game.

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Re: Disappointment

 

So, it's clear Co isn't much like the PnP game in playstyle. Basically all that is used it the Champions Universe (i.e. characters, powers, places, etc...) Theme. I think, like many have said, that there is no real way you can directly translate a PnP game to MMO without a serious difference. There are simple two different animals.

 

I have a hunch that the reason things like disadvantages weren't explored was that they were far enough along the road developing the Marvel Universe, that adding it once they started with the CO theme, it would have required scapping everything they already had. I'm not saying they couldn't have, just saying I can't blame them for not wanting to.

 

One thing I love about the MMO vs a PnP is that you have the freedom to pick it up and play whenever you want. You can always (usually) find someone to play with, if you care to. You can make changes to your character in the middle of a mission. Not saying one is better than the other. Just pointing out that there are a lot of nice things about MMO's that PnP can't provide as well.

 

So back to MY question, not being very experienced with the PnP game, "What kinds of things from the PnP game would you like to see in CO?"

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Re: Disappointment

 

So' date=' it's clear Co isn't much like the PnP game in playstyle. Basically all that is used it the Champions Universe (i.e. characters, powers, places, etc...) Theme. I think, like many have said, that there is no real way you can directly translate a PnP game to MMO without a serious difference. There are simple two different animals.[/quote']

 

I hear that mantra so many times that 'm sick of it. Of course you cant recreate the pnp experience online. I don't want CO to be a 1:1 translation of the pnp. It'd be a train wreck. I love the pnp game, and even I'm aware of it.

 

However, the pnp game has so many untapped strengths that the MMO has pitched in favor of a plain-vanilla experience for everyone.

 

I have a hunch that the reason things like disadvantages weren't explored was that they were far enough along the road developing the Marvel Universe, that adding it once they started with the CO theme, it would have required scapping everything they already had. I'm not saying they couldn't have, just saying I can't blame them for not wanting to.

 

I work in programming, and I cannot tell you how many times I've had to take an almost fully-developed hunk of software and retool it for another purpose. Of course it would take time and expense. But I have discovered that not just some of the time - EVERY time I take the time to retool it and not just drape visual changes over the old paradigm that the product that goes out the door is better. It has less bugs, and it better meets the anticipated needs of the client.

 

No one wants to make such efforts, but they are critical to success. CO shouldn't be Marvel MMO with a different skin. Unfortunately, it is. That doesn't make it a broken product, but it certainly could be improved to be more in line with the pnp product.

 

One thing I love about the MMO vs a PnP is that you have the freedom to pick it up and play whenever you want. You can always (usually) find someone to play with' date=' if you care to. You can make changes to your character in the middle of a mission. Not saying one is better than the other. Just pointing out that there are a lot of nice things about MMO's that PnP can't provide as well.[/quote']

 

I'm not going to dispute you on those points, they are pretty obvious. It's why I was looking for an experience similar to my pnp experience that I could pick up at my leisure. As a GM in the Champions universe, it's good not to be the god of chance for a change and let the computer run the game. Syncing up with a half dozen other people is tough sometimes to play the pnp game. I can load and go with the PC game.

 

So back to MY question' date=' not being very experienced with the PnP game, "What kinds of things from the PnP game would you like to see in CO?"[/quote']

 

Well, I think I've covered disadvantages, but I'll give you the core reason disadvantages are so key.

 

They make each player unique. Even if I am forced to follow the same power sets and developmental path of others, I have something that makes my iceman different from yours.

 

I can give you an example that makes perfect sense.

 

In the pnp game, we can have personality traits that are disadvantages.

 

Cocky, for instance.

 

In game mechanics, it could easily be reflected by giving a penalty to offsetting aggro. The cocky guy just seems to grab attention when he doesn't want it and doesn't get it when he does.

 

A simple add-on that even the in-game gear already accomplishes in CO (so no need for extensive code to be added), but as a trait, I have a character schtick that makes me different, and feel different. Of course for taking a D/A, I get something back. Maybe I get a tiny surge of END or XP when I'm drawing aggro.

 

Again, programmatically, something crafted items can do, but as a trait it's something that is part of me, my character, that I don't have to rely on gear for.

 

Of course there are other elements that the pnp game has that are poorly reflected in the CO frame. The mechanics for dodging attacks in CO is inane. It assumes that every attack aimed at someone is going to hit. Dodging only allows you to mitigate a tiny percentile of that damage.

In the pnp game, you can actually use dodging to avoid an attack completely. You have characters who rely on not getting hit as their defense instead of stacks of armor.

 

In CO, every character, regardless of framework, is forced to acquire armour, and lots of it, to survive. The DEX stat never felt more useless - and works so utterly different than reality as it makes no sense at all.

 

In CO, a ninja isn't a dodger, but a person who tanks. This is goofy as hell.

 

Even in a Comic Book, a hero can dodge things that are thrown at them. There is zero reflection of this in the CO. Heroes in CO are all stitched from the same cloth... which is to say, a set of powers and statistics that are far-removed from reality, or even comic book reality.

 

The pnp game has accommodated this well.

 

Also, the pnp game provides "special effects" for powers, which is a nice way to make a generic power set look and feel different.

 

If I design a ranged attack in the pnp game, I can assign it a number of special effects to make it unique.

 

Whether it be fire, lightning, ice, or even just particles. CO created powers in every framework, but no ability to take a power and customize it. What if I want flaming bullets? The pnp has an easy, mathematical calculation to determine a balanced cost for it... the computer game could do the same.

 

The pnp game also has a bunch of advantages you can apply to powers as a whole. Not an arbitrary set that is assigned only to a few.

 

Also, the idea of stun. CO creates a mechanism that treats every hero as a cookie cutter when it comes to stunning effects. The pnp game actually had a statistic for the amount of "Stun" a character could take, and how much they could take in a single strike before becoming disoriented. Simple number crunching that the MMO could excel at.

 

I could sit and spit venom at CO for hours like this. And the truth is that I want CO to succeed - hoping that someday it will evolve to be more like the pnp game.

 

Despite all my venom, I do concede several things done right.

 

The game uses quests for the primary mechanism for XP. It's a little shy of content, but that will grow.

 

The game also has a mechanic that encourages active blocking to offset damage. If only dodge were given a similar active effect, the system would accommodate a number of playstyles and frameworks well. Still, such an inclusion is something that the pnp game uses, and feels right in the MMO.

 

CO has a character designer that is probably the best around. You can create some really unique-looking characters.

 

CO uses a nemesis to progress your character, and gives you some level of customization for it. It's a nice touch, and adds more dimension to a game which at times feels flat.

 

CO has some of the most spectacular looking zones around. Lemuria is breathtakingly detailed and lovely. It's hard as hell to navigate because of the 3d element of it, and because mobs can literally come from above, below, and all around you. And the lag in that zone causes a number of unneeded adds. (perhaps some aggro range reduction would fix that, at least until they stop the rubber-banding of laggy zones).

 

CO's skin is built on Champions. Yeah, it's only a skin, but it's a damned nice one. If the game felt as deep and developed (and yes, that means more pnp inclusion) as the skin promised, I'd probably never complain - even despite the many technical things people yap on about.

 

The technical shortcomings are fixable over time. The system is still new. I am willing to make reasonable expectations in those areas.

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Re: Disappointment

 

@antiklaus

 

Thanks for the post, and added info about the PnP game. Like I said, I only played a few times and that was way back in the early 90's. I guess, like a lot of people, I've been waiting for an honest to goodness Super Hero MMO for a real long time. I remember being excited when Freedom Force came out. And then really excited about CoH. But neither of those really delivered what I was looking for, although both were good in their own way.

 

In response, I agree with most of your criticisms. Since I have a Melee Character I didn't really think about Dodge, but I see your point. While I don't know if it would work to have your character actually "Dodge" incoming attacks, bobbibg and weaving, I guess they should have much fewer attacks landing. If this isn't the result of a higher dexterity... yeah, what good is it?

 

The idea of Personality Traits, like the Handicaps, sounds awesome. Obviously it would be hard now to implement it, but I wonder if some kind of add-on would be possible? I hope that they would add something like this. It would really be something that could set it apart from the other MMO's out there.

 

And yeah, what's the deal with only being able to change the color of some power effects? I was lead to believe, in all the press leading up to the release that we would have a much broader control over how our powers looked? I mean, power and emination point are nice, but it could be so much more. Maybe we can hope more will come later. CoH added something like this, so there isn't any reason why Cryptic couldn't add more, right?

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Re: Disappointment

 

@antiklaus

 

Thanks for the post, and added info about the PnP game. Like I said, I only played a few times and that was way back in the early 90's. I guess, like a lot of people, I've been waiting for an honest to goodness Super Hero MMO for a real long time. I remember being excited when Freedom Force came out. And then really excited about CoH. But neither of those really delivered what I was looking for, although both were good in their own way.

 

In response, I agree with most of your criticisms. Since I have a Melee Character I didn't really think about Dodge, but I see your point. While I don't know if it would work to have your character actually "Dodge" incoming attacks, bobbibg and weaving, I guess they should have much fewer attacks landing. If this isn't the result of a higher dexterity... yeah, what good is it?

 

The idea of Personality Traits, like the Handicaps, sounds awesome. Obviously it would be hard now to implement it, but I wonder if some kind of add-on would be possible? I hope that they would add something like this. It would really be something that could set it apart from the other MMO's out there.

 

And yeah, what's the deal with only being able to change the color of some power effects? I was lead to believe, in all the press leading up to the release that we would have a much broader control over how our powers looked? I mean, power and emination point are nice, but it could be so much more. Maybe we can hope more will come later. CoH added something like this, so there isn't any reason why Cryptic couldn't add more, right?

 

I was assured that we would have considerably more control over power emination points and the respective colors of them. Currently, there is no mechanism to have a "black" power aside from the ones that come that way - and no White colored beams.

 

In any case, I am willing to overlook a lot for the case of future development, but I am saddened by the lack of pnp features.

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Re: Disappointment

 

No one wants to make such efforts, but they are critical to success. CO shouldn't be Marvel MMO with a different skin. Unfortunately, it is. That doesn't make it a broken product, but it certainly could be improved to be more in line with the pnp product.

 

 

This shows me you weren't in the Closed Beta, and certainly not in Alpha testing. I can assure you, the game-play as it stands doesn't even resemble the game-play from the Alpha, let alone anything that may have come before. The extensive rebuild was, I'm fairly sure, the primary reason so many features you are hoping for, and were mentioned as being possible features, were cut.

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Re: Disappointment

 

This shows me you weren't in the Closed Beta' date=' and certainly not in Alpha testing. I can assure you, the game-play as it stands doesn't even resemble the game-play from the Alpha, let alone anything that may have come before. The extensive rebuild was, I'm fairly sure, the primary reason so many features you are hoping for, and were mentioned as being possible features, were cut.[/quote']

 

I *was* in the Closed BETA. I would love you to elucidate me on many of these features I wanted that got cut.

 

All I noticed of significance was a complete and game-breaking restructuring of power levels. The game in BETA played nothing like it does now, not because it was more pnp-like before, but because the designers have built the powers around sets they control (and even then, only by the rule of "if over half the community takes the power, we must nerf it immediately") rather than giving the power sets to the players - and a discrete set of transparent numbers that allow EVERYONE to see where the flaws are in the game mechanics, rather than letting experimenters in min/maxing find them and exploit them.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Indeed' date=' putting out an expansion that sells only for what 3 months subscription would pull in, and not everyone will buy it. Subs are where the money is at.[/quote']

 

You might think that, but I'd bet you'd be mistaken... at least so long as WoW is around. There are a lot more people willing to pay a one-time fee to pick up something than are willing to shell out for multiple subscriptions, and the truth of the matter is that the total playerbase for all non-WoW MMOs is a lot smaller than the total playerbase interested in MMO-style games in general. There is only so much subscription money to go around; for most games these days it's far smarter to go for a smaller share of a far bigger pot. That's why the rage in MMO-space these days is not subscriptions, it's microtransactions.

 

For those bashing Guild Wars, I'd be very careful of holding that game up as an example of what not to do. On its own terms, it's been a huge success, both as far as playerbase retention goes and financially. No it's not a WoW-killer, but it never tried to be.

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Re: Disappointment

 

CoH, according wiki, had around 125k subscribers as of November 2008. I'm guessing anything in that ballpark for CO would be considered a success. If they don't have 100k subscribers within a year of the X-box 360 version's release, I'm guessing that would qualify the product as a commercial failure.

 

WoW has over 10 million subscribers worldwide. Nobody expects a superhero MMO to top that, or even come close, at this point.

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Re: Disappointment

 

If there are any pen and paper gamers at CO development team, their voices have been stifled. There is no indication of the pen and paper game having the slightest influence on the CO game.

 

In your opinion.

 

And you are wrong about the lack of pen and paper gamers being on the dev team, and about their voices being stifled. People disagreeing with you over what parts of the pen and paper game they wanted to include in the MMO isn't the same as there being "no indication of the pen and paper game having the slightest influence on the CO game". Maybe there is no indication to you. However I see plenty of indications of it all over the place.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Archermoo' date=' there comes a point where it's time to stop feeding the trolls. ;)[/quote']

 

Who is a troll?

 

I've been playing Champions since first edition, likely longer than you have been alive.

 

I feel more than justified to my opinion, and more to the point, complaint that there are no solid instances of the pnp rules in the gameplay. More to the point, if there were, you and the other naysayers would give examples.

 

The absolute fact is that no one has. Not even the development team, because they'd be stymied to have to do so.

 

Give me a solid example of the pnp play as being reflected in the current mechanic. Just one.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Who is a troll?

 

I've been playing Champions since first edition, likely longer than you have been alive.

 

I know you weren't responding to me, but I've been playing since '81.

 

I feel more than justified to my opinion, and more to the point, complaint that there are no solid instances of the pnp rules in the gameplay. More to the point, if there were, you and the other naysayers would give examples.

 

The absolute fact is that no one has. Not even the development team, because they'd be stymied to have to do so.

 

Give me a solid example of the pnp play as being reflected in the current mechanic. Just one.

 

I've never claimed that CO used the Hero system rules. Cryptic never claimed it either. It uses the Champions Universe IP, which is separate from the Hero System IP. The setting and the rules are separate things.

 

What you have claimed is that there are no fans of the Hero system on the Dev team, or that if there are they have been stifled. I've just been pointing out that you are incorrect in your assumption, and that you shouldn't be presenting it as fact. Just because they didn't implement the game in the same way that you would have doesn't mean that they don't qualify as fans.

 

So if your point is that CO doesn't use the Hero System, I certainly agree with you. I didn't expect that it would, and as previously stated Cryptic not only never claimed that it would, the have openly stated that it wouldn't. Other than that I'm not quite sure what your point is, other than "they didn't do CO the way I would have".

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I know you weren't responding to me, but I've been playing since '81.

 

I've never claimed that CO used the Hero system rules. Cryptic never claimed it either.

 

 

No, but they strongly inferred it with packaging, their website references to the pnp game, and the in-game messages which state that the game is based on the pnp game. Note the distinction. ON the pnp game, not IN the game universe.

 

That seems a clear indication that they had every intention of leading people to believe that the game was based upon the pnp game, and by a process of simple inference, at least in some way, the rules.

 

 

What you have claimed is that there are no fans of the Hero system on the Dev team, or that if there are they have been stifled.

 

 

I've just been pointing out that you are incorrect in your assumption, and that you shouldn't be presenting it as fact. Just because they didn't implement the game in the same way that you would have doesn't mean that they don't qualify as fans.

 

 

It's rather clear that the intent was to make people think that the game is based upon the pnp game. There is little squirm room there. It's pretty clear that's the case.

 

If there are pnp enthusiasts on the dev team (which is unlikely, since the original team was forged during the Marvel MMO days), they would have had to have joined AFTER the Hero Games purchase, meaning their voices are not going to carry nearly as much weight as those who have been coding with the team since the start. I work with programmers, and I understand how these things go.

 

That said, how can they *not* be stifled? This isn't a case of implementing a game that was similar, but not the same as the Champions pnp game, but in presenting one that is radically different in every mechanic and structure, short of it's visual skin.

 

 

So if your point is that CO doesn't use the Hero System, I certainly agree with you. I didn't expect that it would, and as previously stated Cryptic not only never claimed that it would,

 

Excepting in those cases where they use misleading messages in the game, and on their website...

 

the have openly stated that it wouldn't. Other than that I'm not quite sure what your point is, other than "they didn't do CO the way I would have".

 

My point is that they have mislead a number of people. I can honestly say that I don't hate the game as you seem intent on shoving those words into my mouth. But since this thread is titled "Disappointment", I thought I'd throw out some realistic critism from someone who is both a programmer, and who has played the game from the start.

 

I think my observations and criticisms are very fair. I'm not on here whining about lack of content or bugs. I'm commenting about a very real and fundamental disappointment. I can assure you that I am not alone in this disappointment - and despite it, I struggle to keep my friends who are eager to jump ship from CO to stick with it and see where it goes.

 

I am passionate about this because I care, not because I'm trolling anyone. I would love the folks at Cryptic to learn from their failures, and to do a real service to the loyalists of the pnp game who have been with it for decades. So far, their attitude is dismissive and refuses to acknowledge the strengths of the system upon which the game takes it's name... yet they tout the pnp aspect in many places. It's that hypocrisy which both infuriates and disappoints me.

 

Do I expect CO to be a pnp game? Hell no. As I will state for the umpteenth time. Trying to port Hero rules to CO would be a train wreck. It was never written for an MMO.

 

However, that said, some concessions to making their game feel more like the pnp game would go a long way to tying the two together.

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