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Re: Disappointment

 

No, but they strongly inferred it with packaging, their website references to the pnp game, and the in-game messages which state that the game is based on the pnp game. Note the distinction. ON the pnp game, not IN the game universe.

 

That seems a clear indication that they had every intention of leading people to believe that the game was based upon the pnp game, and by a process of simple inference, at least in some way, the rules.

 

 

 

It's rather clear that the intent was to make people think that the game is based upon the pnp game. There is little squirm room there. It's pretty clear that's the case.

 

If there are pnp enthusiasts on the dev team (which is unlikely, since the original team was forged during the Marvel MMO days), they would have had to have joined AFTER the Hero Games purchase, meaning their voices are not going to carry nearly as much weight as those who have been coding with the team since the start. I work with programmers, and I understand how these things go.

 

That said, how can they *not* be stifled? This isn't a case of implementing a game that was similar, but not the same as the Champions pnp game, but in presenting one that is radically different in every mechanic and structure, short of it's visual skin.

 

 

 

 

Excepting in those cases where they use misleading messages in the game, and on their website...

 

 

 

My point is that they have mislead a number of people. I can honestly say that I don't hate the game as you seem intent on shoving those words into my mouth. But since this thread is titled "Disappointment", I thought I'd throw out some realistic critism from someone who is both a programmer, and who has played the game from the start.

 

I think my observations and criticisms are very fair. I'm not on here whining about lack of content or bugs. I'm commenting about a very real and fundamental disappointment. I can assure you that I am not alone in this disappointment - and despite it, I struggle to keep my friends who are eager to jump ship from CO to stick with it and see where it goes.

 

I am passionate about this because I care, not because I'm trolling anyone. I would love the folks at Cryptic to learn from their failures, and to do a real service to the loyalists of the pnp game who have been with it for decades. So far, their attitude is dismissive and refuses to acknowledge the strengths of the system upon which the game takes it's name... yet they tout the pnp aspect in many places. It's that hypocrisy which both infuriates and disappoints me.

 

Do I expect CO to be a pnp game? Hell no. As I will state for the umpteenth time. Trying to port Hero rules to CO would be a train wreck. It was never written for an MMO.

 

However, that said, some concessions to making their game feel more like the pnp game would go a long way to tying the two together.

 

You are entirely wrong about their intent. They have clearly stated from the very beginning that CO would be using the Champions Universe but would not be using the Hero System rules. As a nod to Hero Games they initially had a forum specifically for people who were interested in finding out more about the Hero System. To say that this was done to confuse people into thinking that CO would be using the Hero System rules is just silly. Particularly since their FAQ at the time specifically addressed the question.

 

And I'll point out that quite a few of the people working at Cryptic are loyalists of the PnP game, and have been playing for decades themselves. One of the reasons that they approached Hero Games about buying the Champions Universe IP from them was because of how much they enjoy the game. I remember both Darren and Steve mentioning an interesting interaction when they were first looking at early alpha versions of CO. Going to the Cryptic studios they were geeking out big time at how cool it was to see things that they had written (including a number of small "throwaway" things that Cryptic has taken and run with) in a computer game. And on the other hand having the people writing said game have a similar reaction to them being there as the current owners of the Hero System, and the producers of all of the 5th edition material (and some of the better 4th edition stuff as well).

 

And I can't see how it is reasonably possible to claim that CO isn't based off of Champions. It is also set in the Champions Universe. And in fact in a very real way it now IS the Champions Universe, since Cryptic owns the Champions Universe IP. You have my sympathy that you read more into "based off of" than was intended, and that you missed all of the public announcements from Cryptic that though CO is based on Champions that it isn't a conversion of the rules into MMO format. I can certainly understand you being disappointed in that case. You just shouldn't make claims about intent or the interests of the employees of a company without having actual knowledge of the matter.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Who is a troll?

You, because your arguments are neither based in logic nor responsive to it. You just keep articulating the same rather irrelevant complaint over and over.

 

I've been playing Champions since first edition, likely longer than you have been alive.

Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. Nice try. Incidentally, your surmise about my age is incorrect. Bzzt, sorry, try again player 1!

 

I feel more than justified to my opinion, and more to the point, complaint that there are no solid instances of the pnp rules in the gameplay. More to the point, if there were, you and the other naysayers would give examples.

 

The absolute fact is that no one has. Not even the development team, because they'd be stymied to have to do so.

 

Give me a solid example of the pnp play as being reflected in the current mechanic. Just one.

Why should I? They never claimed there would be. That is the point that consistently eludes you. Instead you've manufactured in your head some statement or implication by Cryptic, suggesting that they would use the PnP rules directly, that was simply never made. In fact, if you'd followed the game's development at all, Cryptic was very explict about NOT basing the game on the PnP rules, but simply using them as inspiration and adopting the setting.

 

It's patently obvious to everyone, including Cryptic, that it would be pointless to try to make a MMO game that used the PnP rules. These are completely different beasts and it'd be absurd to try to marry them that closely together. So why would you continue to insist that Cryptic implied the equivalent of 'the sky is red' when they in fact came right out and said 'the sky is blue?'

 

If I choose to suggest you're trolling, it's to give you the benefit of the doubt... because otherwise you really are that dense. ;)

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Re: Disappointment

 

You are entirely wrong about their intent. They have clearly stated from the very beginning that CO would be using the Champions Universe but would not be using the Hero System rules.

 

Clearly to whom? Is it on the box? What on their website tells people they are not based on the game... wait, it has a page dedicated specifically to the pnp game. You make reference to comments made and announcements made well before release, none of which exists in the now. The current content, now, tells people it is based on the pnp game.

 

And what in the game itself would lead people to believe that the game was not based on the pnp game. Certainly not the in-game messages which in fact (you can't deny this, I have screenshots) - state that the game is based upon the pen and paper game!

 

 

As a nod to Hero Games they initially had a forum specifically for people who were interested in finding out more about the Hero System. To say that this was done to confuse people into thinking that CO would be using the Hero System rules is just silly. Particularly since their FAQ at the time specifically addressed the question.

 

I'm not talking about an old discontinued forum thread, I'm talking about the content on their webpage, as of today.

 

 

And I'll point out that quite a few of the people working at Cryptic are loyalists of the PnP game, and have been playing for decades themselves. One of the reasons that they approached Hero Games about buying the Champions Universe IP from them was because of how much they enjoy the game. I remember both Darren and Steve mentioning an interesting interaction when they were first looking at early alpha versions of CO. Going to the Cryptic studios they were geeking out big time at how cool it was to see things that they had written (including a number of small "throwaway" things that Cryptic has taken and run with) in a computer game. And on the other hand having the people writing said game have a similar reaction to them being there as the current owners of the Hero System, and the producers of all of the 5th edition material (and some of the better 4th edition stuff as well).

 

I find it difficult to believe that the IP of Champions was sold to Cryptic as a service to the fans of the game. It was done, as many have done before, for profit and business sense. Marvel wasn't going to happen, and they had to save a sinking ship. We are talking about a game based upon fiction, yes, but this is the real world. To infer that selling or buying the IP of something infers some loyalty to the pnp universe is naive. Ultimately, every decision is going to be based against the profit margin. I just hope to stress that my disappoinments are not unique, and that if the company has profit at it's core, that it will do the best it can to mitigate the effects of such disappointments. I, as I have said, am doing all I can to keep several friends playing despite my disappointments. I see a lot of potential, but to have apologists say that everything is perfect will never see anything fixed. Without an accurate barometer on the fanbase, Cryptic will create another Hellgate London fiasco.

 

And I can't see how it is reasonably possible to claim that CO isn't based off of Champions. It is also set in the Champions Universe. And in fact in a very real way it now IS the Champions Universe, since Cryptic owns the Champions Universe IP.

 

Oh come on. Really, a legaleze definition AGAIN? I presume Cryptic must be signing your paychecks, because that kind of claim wouldn't wash with X-Men's fans after the last movie, and certainly the same claim doesn't wash with the pnp game.

 

Beyond being set IN the Champions Universe, tell me how the game is based ON (their words) - the PEN AND PAPER (their words) game?

 

You have my sympathy that you read more into "based off of" than was intended, and that you missed all of the public announcements from Cryptic that though CO is based on Champions that it isn't a conversion of the rules into MMO format. I can certainly understand you being disappointed in that case. You just shouldn't make claims about intent or the interests of the employees of a company without having actual knowledge of the matter.

 

You have my sympathy for the thorough brainwashing that Cryptic did to you when they started signing your paycheck. Look, loyalists to the game have loyalty to the game. You are coming across like the kind of person who hangs band posters on their wall of whatever the current trend is.

 

I call loyalty hanging up my Rush poster and dealing with the fact that new bands have come. I listen to the new and old. But I know my roots, and you can bet when I grab a bass, it's Tom Sawyer time. The same can be said of my pen and paper experience.

 

I am not going to hop on a trendy Cryptic washed-down version of my game, and certainly not going to allow them to claim they are based upon the game without crying foul.

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Re: Disappointment

 

I suppose it depends on if you consider "Champions" the PnP game or a Genre.

 

I believe the name of the PnP Game is in fact "Hero System Rules" - which has been, in point of fact, the name the set of rules for 20 years now.

 

So unless the game says "Based on the Hero System" it isn't actually based on the Pen And Paper game.

 

Basing it on Champions bases it on a genre, not a system.

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Re: Disappointment

 

I suppose it depends on if you consider "Champions" the PnP game or a Genre.

 

I believe the name of the PnP Game is in fact "Hero System Rules" - which has been, in point of fact, the name the set of rules for 20 years now.

 

So unless the game says "Based on the Hero System" it isn't actually based on the Pen And Paper game.

 

Basing it on Champions bases it on a genre, not a system.

 

 

Given that the Champions rules set (and rulebook) predate "Hero System Rules" by 3 years, your comment is incorrect.

 

The original game (and rules set) were published in 1981.

 

Champions was first. Heroes System Rules came second, published in 1984 .

 

In fact, "Heroes Sytems" products, such as "Fantasy Hero" are considered "Genres" within the original Champions rules set.

 

And just to restate the obvious, Superheroics is a Genre, much like Mutants Comics are a genre. Champions is a specific game rules system in the superhero genre, Much as X-Men is a specific comic book in the Mutant Comics genre.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Why should I? They never claimed there would be.

 

I am sorry that I have to keep repeating myself, but you insist on being dense about this. If their website, and their game make a claim, then they owe it to the customer to meet that claim.

 

And I have never said they should use the rules directly. Refer to my "train wreck" commentary. All I have consistently said is "if they are going to claim the product is base ON the PEN AND PAPER" game, then it should at least make a passing effort to do so. Again, your thick-headedness is either the cause of congenital defect or you really are a troll.

 

In fact, if you'd followed the game's development at all,

Cryptic was very explict about NOT basing the game on the PnP rules, but simply using them as inspiration and adopting the setting.

 

You mean back when the game was going to be Marvel Online?

 

 

It's patently obvious to everyone, including Cryptic, that it would be pointless to try to make a MMO game that used the PnP rules. These are completely different beasts and it'd be absurd to try to marry them that closely together.

 

Show me one instance where I said the MMO should be the pnp game?

 

You can't. I never made that claim. But what I have asked for is that some of the strengths of the actual Champions game be put into the MMO that carries its name. You seem happy with it being a skin. I prefer it to be a hair deeper than that.

 

So why would you continue to insist that Cryptic implied the equivalent of 'the sky is red' when they in fact came right out and said 'the sky is blue?'

 

They claim the MMO is based on the pen and paper game. I'm not implying anything. The least they could do is honor that claim.

 

If I choose to suggest you're trolling, it's to give you the benefit of the doubt... because otherwise you really are that dense. ;)

I can little give you much doubt of anything. At this point you have two choices, cognitive defect or troll.

 

Pick one and I'll believe it.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Incidentally, this is addressed as the 6th question on their FAQ on the champions-online.com site. Most magazine articles previewing the game also mentioned it wasn't directly using the Hero System rules as the base, but using the Champions Universe and the general concept/principle of flexible character design. Most of the discussion of it here, IIRC, also quickly mentioned it wouldn't be using the Hero System.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Incidentally' date=' this is addressed as the 6th question on their FAQ on the champions-online.com site. Most magazine articles previewing the game also mentioned it wasn't directly using the Hero System rules as the base, but using the Champions Universe and the general concept/principle of flexible character design. Most of the discussion of it here, IIRC, also quickly mentioned it wouldn't be using the Hero System.[/quote']

 

A new customer buys primarily on the cover art, in-game content, and on what the web page states.

 

The Cover art clearly states Champions (which is a rules set, not a graphics style).

 

The in-game messages state "Champions Online is based on the pen and paper game"

 

The web page has an quick link to the pen and paper game.

 

The FAQ does not tell the truth is it's response to question #6.

 

They claim about drawing inspiration from Champions. Aside from the visual feel, the inspiration ends.

 

A more accurate answer would be "look, we already had a game built for Marvel, and we are not going to toss all that hard work away... so really, this game has the skin of Champions, but we pretty much pitched all the stuff that would have made you feel any kinship to the actual Champions rules set."

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Re: Disappointment

 

I don't play CO, but it was very clear to me right off the start that CO was being based in the Champions Universe. The Hero System Rules were not going to be used, there was plenty of documentation to show that it was not part of the game.

 

Steve & Darren did not sell the Hero System, they sold the Champions IP which is the setting of the Universe.

 

I note you say it's the same thing. It's not anymore. Sure the first iteration of the rules were released at Champions, but that's in the past.

 

Don't people read FAQs anymore?

Will Champions Online use the HERO System from the Champions PnP?

A: Champions Online does not use the HERO System. We have however taken plenty of inspiration from the HERO system by taking the core concepts of character and power customization and incorporating them into our vision of the Champions universe. You'll see some terminology that is familiar to the HERO System such as Advantages, Perks, etc. but we're implementing them in a way better suited for an action-gameplay MMORPG experience.

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Re: Disappointment

 

A new customer buys primarily on the cover art, in-game content, and on what the web page states.

 

The Cover art clearly states Champions (which is a rules set, not a graphics style).

 

The in-game messages state "Champions Online is based on the pen and paper game"

 

The web page has an quick link to the pen and paper game.

 

The FAQ does not tell the truth is it's response to question #6.

 

They claim about drawing inspiration from Champions. Aside from the visual feel, the inspiration ends.

 

A more accurate answer would be "look, we already had a game built for Marvel, and we are not going to toss all that hard work away... so really, this game has the skin of Champions, but we pretty much pitched all the stuff that would have made you feel any kinship to the actual Champions rules set."

 

So, you didn't read any of the half dozen or so preview articles in the e-gaming mags? Nor any of the discussion threads on the forums here? But you have been a longtime hero gamer and someone very familiar with the electronic gaming industry? Hmm...

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Re: Disappointment

 

Given that the Champions rules set (and rulebook) predate "Hero System Rules" by 3 years, your comment is incorrect.

 

The original game (and rules set) were published in 1981.

 

Champions was first. Heroes System Rules came second, published in 1984 .

 

In fact, "Heroes Sytems" products, such as "Fantasy Hero" are considered "Genres" within the original Champions rules set.

 

And just to restate the obvious, Superheroics is a Genre, much like Mutants Comics are a genre. Champions is a specific game rules system in the superhero genre, Much as X-Men is a specific comic book in the Mutant Comics genre.

 

By the time Cryptic came along, it has been called Hero System.

 

From their POV, the PnP is called Hero System, superhero gaming is called Champions and is merely a subset of Hero System.

 

So ... you know... just to state the obvious, modern terminology and all, going with the times... moving forward... and all that.

 

I'm not incorrect. ;)

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Re: Disappointment

 

It's time to let the Cloudcuckoolander trapise off into his own little universe without us, methinks. Nothing is going to convince him that his fantasy world isn't real at this point.

 

Say hi to the men in white coats for us when they come to take you away, antiklaus! ;)

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Re: Disappointment

 

So when the FAQ explained it for you, you chose not to believe it?

 

Do you also think Windex is good for cleaning your contacts? After all, it's made to clean surfaces, who cares if there's a warning that you're not supposed to get it in your eyes...

 

The FAQ said they were not using the HERO system, which as I have stated is not Champions rules.

 

When you have every indicator that the Champions pen and paper game is what the game is based upon, even in-game, and then, when you actually get to play it, and see literally NONE of the pen and paper, then you would be wearing some pretty rose-colored glasses to see the pen and paper anywhere in the current game.

 

Anyways. This thread is not called, "Cryptic Apologists" it's called "Disappointments"

 

I have stayed on topic, and everyone here is convinced by bludgeoning me with the Cryptic Logo that I'll willingly take a lawn mine and swallow it as a chocolate custard.

 

It's simply not going to happen. And honestly, The people in this thread are the reason that my friends are ready to hop ship. The more I read, the more I wonder why I even try to keep them around.

 

My disappointment is based on a fundamental issue, not some contrivance or technical complaint. And the funny part is that addressing my concern would put a lot of people's concerns to rest - and require minimal effort to accomplish.

 

I'm not asking for 1000 new quests by December. I'm asking for some of the elements that made the Champions system unique to filter their way into the game... for more of the character to be actually part of the character instead of their gear.

 

Every mechanism that can be accomplished via gear that is currently out there could be added as character "trait" disadvantages and require so little new code as to require little more than an extra drop down and a list box, and cut and paste on existing code.

 

FYI, simple changes not being made - that's "Disappointment"

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Re: Disappointment

 

 

By the time Cryptic came along, it has been called Hero System.

 

From their POV, the PnP is called Hero System, superhero gaming is called Champions and is merely a subset of Hero System.

 

Wow, you really need to update the wiki entry, because your rewrite of history is amazing. I'm sure that if Warner Brothers bought the Beatles songs and renamed the band to "The Cluckheads" that from henceforth, all Beatles songs would be product of the "Fab Fowl"?

 

So ... you know... just to state the obvious, modern terminology and all, going with the times... moving forward... and all that.

I'm not incorrect.

 

Hey, gray is the new black, I get it, I really do. But unfortunately, Black is still Black.

 

Champions is a rules set, was a rules set, will always be a rules set. Even if they change it to using d35's or let the computer do it, there are still rules.

 

Superheroes are a genre. Champions is set of rules to design and create characters and interact within that genre.

 

English is more than a muffin, you know, it's a language, and it has structures and rules. Saying you are right does not make it so. You have to have proof and facts.

 

Trying to revise history for the sake of saving yourself the dishonor of being an idiot to reality does not make you right.

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Re: Disappointment

 

So' date=' you didn't read any of the half dozen or so preview articles in the e-gaming mags? Nor any of the discussion threads on the forums here? But you have been a longtime hero gamer and someone very familiar with the electronic gaming industry? Hmm...[/quote']

 

I've played Champions since edition one.

I play pen and paper, and video games based upon pen and paper games.

 

Why would I subscribe to e-game mags?

 

I usually rely on word of mouth to get a fair shake on video games. If not for getting invited to the BETA after my BETA invite on Vanguard Online, I'd never even have heard of Champions Online.

 

I write my own supplements.

 

Why would I frequent the forums here?

 

I have stumbled into this place because my friends who are disappointed with CO have pointed me here. I have stated my positions because they are valid.

 

Once again. This is the disappointment thread. If you can't stay on topic, please, take it somewhere else. Do I have to ask for a moderator?

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Re: Disappointment

 

Clearly to whom? Is it on the box? What on their website tells people they are not based on the game... wait, it has a page dedicated specifically to the pnp game. You make reference to comments made and announcements made well before release, none of which exists in the now. The current content, now, tells people it is based on the pnp game.

 

And what in the game itself would lead people to believe that the game was not based on the pnp game. Certainly not the in-game messages which in fact (you can't deny this, I have screenshots) - state that the game is based upon the pen and paper game!

 

 

 

 

I'm not talking about an old discontinued forum thread, I'm talking about the content on their webpage, as of today.

 

 

 

 

I find it difficult to believe that the IP of Champions was sold to Cryptic as a service to the fans of the game. It was done, as many have done before, for profit and business sense. Marvel wasn't going to happen, and they had to save a sinking ship. We are talking about a game based upon fiction, yes, but this is the real world. To infer that selling or buying the IP of something infers some loyalty to the pnp universe is naive. Ultimately, every decision is going to be based against the profit margin. I just hope to stress that my disappoinments are not unique, and that if the company has profit at it's core, that it will do the best it can to mitigate the effects of such disappointments. I, as I have said, am doing all I can to keep several friends playing despite my disappointments. I see a lot of potential, but to have apologists say that everything is perfect will never see anything fixed. Without an accurate barometer on the fanbase, Cryptic will create another Hellgate London fiasco.

 

 

 

Oh come on. Really, a legaleze definition AGAIN? I presume Cryptic must be signing your paychecks, because that kind of claim wouldn't wash with X-Men's fans after the last movie, and certainly the same claim doesn't wash with the pnp game.

 

Beyond being set IN the Champions Universe, tell me how the game is based ON (their words) - the PEN AND PAPER (their words) game?

 

 

 

You have my sympathy for the thorough brainwashing that Cryptic did to you when they started signing your paycheck. Look, loyalists to the game have loyalty to the game. You are coming across like the kind of person who hangs band posters on their wall of whatever the current trend is.

 

I call loyalty hanging up my Rush poster and dealing with the fact that new bands have come. I listen to the new and old. But I know my roots, and you can bet when I grab a bass, it's Tom Sawyer time. The same can be said of my pen and paper experience.

 

I am not going to hop on a trendy Cryptic washed-down version of my game, and certainly not going to allow them to claim they are based upon the game without crying foul.

 

Why is it that people without adequate arguments always tend to start trying to smear the people they are discussing things with by falsely claiming that their opponent is on the payroll of the company under discussion? Is it really so hard to understand that there are people who disagree with you without having to be paid by someone to do so? When I see verifiably false claims made about something, I'll generally point out the falseness of those claims. Whether or not I like the thing I'm defending. As it happens I also know several people at Cryptic, as well as being pretty good friends with most of the Hero staff.

 

I still have yet to see any support from you as to why you believe that claims that CO is based on the PnP game Champions are false. They seem quite self evidently true to me. Does it use the Hero System? No. Did they ever claim that it did? No. The PnP game Champions is the Superhero Genre of the Hero System. CO is based on that Genre, and specifically uses the official setting, known as the Champions Universe.

 

Did they directly base it off of the first version of Champions to come out back in '81? No. Did they ever claim to? No.

 

And I'll point out that I never claimed that Cryptic bought the Champions IP out of charity to the fans of the game. I said they when they were interested in purchasing the IP of an existing Superhero world that at least in part because of the love many of the people on staff had for Champions/the Hero System they decided to approach Hero Games about buying the IP. I'm not just assuming that that was one of the reasons, I know it for a fact.

 

I also never said that everything is perfect. I've just been addressing false statements that you have been making. There are things I'd like to see changed, and bugs that need to be stamped out. I just don't like to see people presenting unfounded assumptions as facts. Particularly when I know that those assumptions are false.

 

Oh and as to popular trends, all I can do is laugh. Though with the accuracy of your other predictions/assumptions I'm not at all surprised by this one. :)

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Re: Disappointment

 

Once again. This is the disappointment thread. If you can't stay on topic, please, take it somewhere else. Do I have to ask for a moderator?

 

[Mod hat on]Just because "Disappointment" is the thread title doesn't mean that the only things that can be posted to the thread are posts about how you are disappointed. Replies that specifically address the concerns of posts that are on topic to the thread are pretty much by definition on topic. That being said, if you feel that any post violates the TOS of the Hero Boards, please feel free to report it to the mods using the button at the upper right portion of each post and we will certainly take a look at it.[Mod hat off]

 

Oh, and of note, any name that is in italics is a mod. Any name that is in bold italics is an Admin.

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Re: Disappointment

 

[Mod hat on]Just because "Disappointment" is the thread title doesn't mean that the only things that can be posted to the thread are posts about how you are disappointed. Replies that specifically address the concerns of posts that are on topic to the thread are pretty much by definition on topic. That being said' date=' if you feel that any post violates the TOS of the Hero Boards, please feel free to report it to the mods using the button at the upper right portion of each post and we will certainly take a look at it.[Mod hat off']

 

Oh, and of note, any name that is in italics is a mod. Any name that is in bold italics is an Admin.

 

/dripping sarcasm mode: ON/

Really? I hadn't noticed

/dripping sarcasm mode: OFF/

 

Look. I really, really, really, really am not out to trash CO. If you are happy with what Cryptic has done with the Champions IP, then more power to you.

 

If you read the first post of the thread, you'd see that I'm not alone in my disappointment with the direction Cryptic has taken. I see lots of room for improvement, and god's I'd love to see more of the pen and paper game reflected in the game.

 

That's my primary point. I don't really care that Cryptic has said from the start that they aren't out to recreate HERO rules in an MMO, because that's not what I am asking for - nor is it what most of the pnp enthusiasts who were lured in by the title alone expected.

 

Point made.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Champions is a rules set' date=' was a rules set, will always be a rules set. Even if they change it to using d35's or let the computer do it, there are still rules.[/quote']

This is simply your opinion of what CHAMPIONS means to you. To some people (especially those of us in the South), COKE means any carbonated soft drink. I have no idea what the Coca-Cola Company thinks of this.

 

It sounds to me like your disappointment is not with the game, but with the marketing and name. Would it have been better to name the new game CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE ONLINE? Would that have lessened your disappointment?

 

I will readily concede that the game COULD have implemented more features to make it more PnP-like. I like your idea of incorporating character vulnerabilities or DNPCs. What is confusing to those of us here (generally all Hero fans and supporters) is why you EXPECTED Cryptic to do so.

 

If we, the die-hard fans of the tabletop Hero System game, didn't expect CO to recreate the Hero System rules online, do you really think random shoppers at their local Best Buy are going to see Defender (a redrawn and perhaps unrecognizable Defender btw) on the cover and ASSUME this game will finally implement the Champions PnP game on my computer?

 

I am not posting to insult anyone or question anyone's age, I am honestly trying to understand your disappointment. Thank you.

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Re: Disappointment

 

/dripping sarcasm mode: ON/

Really? I hadn't noticed

/dripping sarcasm mode: OFF/

 

It might surprise you to find out how many people don't notice. :)

 

Look. I really, really, really, really am not out to trash CO. If you are happy with what Cryptic has done with the Champions IP, then more power to you.

 

If you read the first post of the thread, you'd see that I'm not alone in my disappointment with the direction Cryptic has taken. I see lots of room for improvement, and god's I'd love to see more of the pen and paper game reflected in the game.

 

That's my primary point. I don't really care that Cryptic has said from the start that they aren't out to recreate HERO rules in an MMO, because that's not what I am asking for - nor is it what most of the pnp enthusiasts who were lured in by the title alone expected.

 

Point made.

 

Fine. As I said I was only ever addressing specific incorrect information that you were presenting as fact. I'm not trying to tell you or anyone else that you should or shouldn't enjoy CO. But if I see you make claims about it, Cryptic, or their employees that I know are false I'll call you on it.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Why would I subscribe to e-game mags?

 

 

Why would I frequent the forums here?

 

 

 

 

Word of mouth is great, but there are a dozen or more places you could have gone, with a simple google search, to find more out about CO.

 

As to the topic of disappointment, I have heard mixed reviews of CO, but am withholding my judgment until the console version comes out next year.

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