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Tuscarora

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Re: Disappointment

 

Since you are new to the board' date=' you may not be aware of HeroCentral, where many of us play the Hero System online. It is a text based play-by-post so no shiny video, but it's the real deal. And since it runs off of donations and Mr. Simon's toil, you won't need to risk any money.[/quote']

Yes, 'Killer Shrike' pointed out Hero Central to me in another thread earlier. Unfortunately when checking it out, it appeared to me that the only campaign it hosted ended two years ago. I suppose I should be looking much more closely?

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Re: Disappointment

 

 

I do not know what this game is, but it is NOT Champions or the Hero System. It does not even bear a superficial resemblance! Gone is the point build system. Gone is the fine control over stats and powers. Gone is the very game mechanics that made Champions as much a war game as it was a role playing game. In it's place is a system with frigging 'levels'! As if we've learned nothing since the days of basic D&D! This game system has more similarity to Diablo than the original Champions.

.

 

It's am MMO. To duplicate the rules structure of a pnp RPG would not be appropriate for an MMO. there was no reason to feel disappojntment since, in no way shape or form did they claim to imitate that environment, nor was their ever any reason to think an MMO could do so, without dooming itself to immediate failure.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Yes' date=' 'Killer Shrike' pointed out Hero Central to me in another thread earlier. Unfortunately when checking it out, it appeared to me that the only campaign it hosted ended two years ago. I suppose I should be looking much more closely?

 

Um...yeah. HERO Central is hosting 102 campaigns currently, and has hosted many more than that historically.

 

Try this link:

 

http://www.herocentral.net/siteActivity.htm;jsessionid=aPIU0Ao9rc1h?campaignId=120041

 

;)

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Re: Disappointment

 

More specifically, to duplicate the rules structure of an open-ended pnp game like hero system would run into at least two problems:

1. There are definitely some powers and power combos that would straight up "break" an MMO, either by being way too munchkinny or just by being near-impossible to implement/emulate properly in-game.

2. The audience would largely be limited to a small multiple of the hardcore pnp gamer base, if not smaller(because not all of the hardcore pnp gamers would subscribe to the online game).

 

Basically, it'd be too difficult (still) to implement, and would never be anything other than a "loss leader" for the publisher.

 

Now, if you wanted to try to do "Hero System Lite", you could probably reduce the number of stats, skills and powers, simplify advantages and limitations and complications, and go from there. Experience progression would be comparably slow, and to an experienced hero gamer there might be frustration at the more limited "palette" of options. So, on balance, I think the gaming world(on the production end, and on the consumer end) is not yet ready for a full or even limited version of HS online.

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Re: Disappointment

 

More specifically, to duplicate the rules structure of an open-ended pnp game like hero system would run into at least two problems:

1. There are definitely some powers and power combos that would straight up "break" an MMO, either by being way too munchkinny or just by being near-impossible to implement/emulate properly in-game.

2. The audience would largely be limited to a small multiple of the hardcore pnp gamer base, if not smaller(because not all of the hardcore pnp gamers would subscribe to the online game).

 

Basically, it'd be too difficult (still) to implement, and would never be anything other than a "loss leader" for the publisher.

 

Now, if you wanted to try to do "Hero System Lite", you could probably reduce the number of stats, skills and powers, simplify advantages and limitations and complications, and go from there. Experience progression would be comparably slow, and to an experienced hero gamer there might be frustration at the more limited "palette" of options. So, on balance, I think the gaming world(on the production end, and on the consumer end) is not yet ready for a full or even limited version of HS online.

 

I would love to see "Hero System Lite".

 

I believe all you'd really need to do is drop the idea that you get more powerful as you play. So your reward would not be "levels" but something else.

 

I think a brave developer could implement a true points system and use a combination of templates and package deals to make a system that offered an easy build system and an expert build system. You would of course have to "hard code" some of those rules that we see as house or campaign rules, such as a max of # points in defenses, OCV limits vs Damage Class etc etc.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Yes' date=' 'Killer Shrike' pointed out Hero Central to me in another thread earlier. Unfortunately when checking it out, it appeared to me that the only campaign it hosted ended two years ago. I suppose I should be looking much more closely?

Part of the problem may be your browser. Hero Central doesn't run well under Internet Explorer and some times you can't see the tool bar that allows you to switch to different campaigns and navigate around the site. The site owner recomends Mozilla Firefox, and I've used Google Chrome with no issues.

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Re: Disappointment

 

I just wanted to state that, like Panpiper and (especially) Antiklaus, I too am DISAPPOINTED with CO and their pathetic tie-in to the RPG that I've loved for decades (incidentally, my favorite RPG).

 

Was I in the alpha/beta for CO? Yes.

Did I know PRIOR to getting in that this was not strictly utilizing the HERO System rules? Yes.

Does that mean that I couldn't be hopeful that the system the DID implement would somehow RESEMBLE the HERO System? NO!!!!

Does it mean that I can't still be disappointed in the fact that there isn't a single *expletive deleted* game mechanic in CO that hearkens me back to the "good ol' days" of tabletop play? NO!!!!

 

I was tracking info on Cryptic's MUO for a while. I was very excited about it, being a long-time Marvel fan. When Marvel backed out, I was very, very disappointed. But when it was announced that Cryptic was going a new direction with their new superhero MMO, calling it CHAMPIONS ONLINE, and basing it upon the RPG of the same name? Well, I don't think it was possible for me to be MORE excited! I thought an MMO would NEVER be produced that utilized the one thing everyone who actually knew about CHAMPIONS loved... the die-hard RPG system. I guess I was right. :(

 

Nay-say all you want, but there is no reason that CHAMPIONS ONLINE could not have utilized systems which would more closely resemble ... *ahem*... RESEMBLE various aspects of the PnP system. Point-based builds. A non-combat skill system (useful, at least, if not also adding "flavor" skills). Raw powers with more personalized options (such as damage type, visual effect, emination point, animation, etc). Assortments of power modifiers (ads and disads). A non-combat skill system. Talents and Perks, as presented in the RPG. Optional Character Disadvantages. And did I mention A NON-COMBAT SKILL SYSTEM!? How about veering away from the standard tripe a bit, and not giving us thousands of hit points and some stupid, contrived crapting system and gear? (misspelling intentional)

 

Seriously though, I never expected a perfect translation of the PnP rules to an MMO, but they could have at least made an EFFORT! I got in fairly early for the Alpha, and I NEVER EVER EVER say ANYTHING that even remotely resembled the PnP game. And don't try to slap me in the face with their "stat block", cuz that's only namesake, the stats don't work at all like they do in PnP.

 

And unlike Antiklaus who states that he's not trying to trash talk CO... I am. I am beyond disappointed with the title. I think it's poo. Sure, it's poo in a nice, shiny box... but it's still poo. Until I read or hear from a RELIABLE SOURCE that Cryptic has overhauled the system to more closely adhere to the PnP rules, they won't see a dime of my money. When beta ended, so did my involvement in the title. I check periodically, in the hopes that a miracle will occur. But I think chances are greater that I will learn coding, modeling, animation, and all the other things necessary to make a game, form my own company and produce my OWN superhero RPG, than the chances of Cryptic manning up to the train wreck that is CO, admitting they wronged the RPG fans, and actually fixing it so that hardcore fans of the game's namesake will actually be enthusiastic about playing it.

 

Needless to say, I don't have high hopes. ;)

 

Oh, and in case anyone missed this on the first page: (I know I did the first time I skimmed through)

Personally' date=' I'd love to see someone license the HERO System for an MMO... which naturally would have to include a big, fat consulting contract for me, me, me. I have absolutely no doubt that it could be turned into a kick-ass MMO rules base. Some hard-coded restrictions would have to be necessary due to the lack of a GM, but it could still come pretty close to true.[/quote']

 

Dude, if I had the skills and resources necessary to do just that, we'd be on the phone discussing the details right now! Okay, maybe not RIGHT NOW, but you get the idea! LOL! I wish I had the ability to put my ideas into games, cuz I have a lot of em. You have no idea how heart-broken I was when Jack Emmert replied to my "why" private message with something resembling "because the system is broken, and wouldn't work in an MMO". I'm glad to see that YOU have faith in your own game! Too bad that *expletive*-hat didn't. :mad:

 

Oops!

 

Apparently I was reading two thread at once and got them confused with one another. Well, at least when I quoted Steve. Took that quote from the 'Hero System' Online thread, LOL! Still, it fits.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Look I was also in the Alpha/Beta (Zottie was my board handle and my first character). It was made VERY clear early on that this game would NOT be using the Hero System. It would be using the game world of the Champions Universe. After recieving feedback from us Alpha testers. Cryptic decided to make the character gen system VERY flexable. It isn't quite as flexable as it was in Alpha/Beta, but that is ACTUALLY a good thing. In early versions of the game you could easily make a gimped character that couldn't take on even the wimpiest of opponents. Near the end of Beta they tightened up the character gen and made it easier to make characters, but they still kept a ton of flexablity. So much flexability that it's kind of hard for a noob to know that they are doing when leveling.

 

Point based systems are VERY VERY hard to balance. That's why Hero System GM's have to work so hard when they look at new Player Characters. The core system is VERY open to abuse by the players, and only a good GM prevent that in their campaign. Also Point based systems have a steep learning curve for building stuff. These are the kind of things that work well for a PnP game, but not for a MMORPG. MMOs have to balance abilities VERY carefully esp when the game has PvP. It is bad if one powerset is more powerful than the rest. It makes the game less fun for those players who didn't take that uber build.

 

Also, for the record. Cryptic's staff was always very nice and very professional in dealing with us Testers. Even when threads became heated, Cryptic's people were very nice and kept the discussions cool as they could be. I have to commend them on this. There were many discussions that were very critical of many design elements, and I never got the impression that Cryptic posters ever became defensive.

 

Honestly, I was unimpressed with the direction that the game took in beta and didn't purchase it as launch. It took another try at the game a few months better to see all of the improvements in the game. I have to say that I am having a ton of fun with it. My electrical blaster Metalstorm is just fun to play and tears stuff up! So I recently purchased the game and am playing and having fun.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Look I was also in the Alpha/Beta (Zottie was my board handle and my first character). It was made VERY clear early on that this game would NOT be using the Hero System. It would be using the game world of the Champions Universe.

 

I never said that it wasn't made clear. I simply said that I hoped the system would more closely resemble the HERO System, despite this knowledge. A system can bear resemblance without being a carbon copy. And the FAQ did state something about taking ideas and concepts from the HERO System, and that fans would recognize some elements... which is a load of manure.

 

After recieving feedback from us Alpha testers. Cryptic decided to make the character gen system VERY flexable. It isn't quite as flexable as it was in Alpha/Beta' date=' but that is ACTUALLY a good thing. In early versions of the game you could easily make a gimped character that couldn't take on even the wimpiest of opponents.[/quote']

 

It's quite possible to gimp your character in the PnP game too, but I like having the option of making my character the way I want to, even if that means they're "gimped".

 

Near the end of Beta they tightened up the character gen and made it easier to make characters' date=' but they still kept a ton of flexablity. So much flexability that it's kind of hard for a noob to know that they are doing when leveling.[/quote']

 

I'm glad it was flexible enough for you, because it always felt way to restricted to me, especially as release was nearing.

 

Point based systems are VERY VERY hard to balance. That's why Hero System GM's have to work so hard when they look at new Player Characters. The core system is VERY open to abuse by the players' date=' and only a good GM prevent that in their campaign.[/quote']

 

I'm glad that you haven't read anything Steve has said on this subject, or anything that programmers have said to the contrary. It isn't that far-fetched a concept to HARD CODE minimum and maximums into a system so that a character isn't too horribly gimped OR overpowered. But even IF a character does end up "gimped" or "overpowered", they are likely gonna have different strengths and weaknesses. The "gimped" character may turn out to be some kind of jack-of-all-trades, with a little something for almost any scenario, with the "overpowered" guy is probably not gonna have a lot of options.

 

Also Point based systems have a steep learning curve for building stuff. These are the kind of things that work well for a PnP game' date=' but not for a MMORPG.[/quote']

 

I'm not exactly suggesting that you give a new character 350 points, and expect a newbie to know what the heck to do. In fact, MOST things in the HERO system can be broken down to fit into 3, 5 or 10 point divisibility, so you pick one, say 5 or 10, then start a character off with whatever the base value would be, divided by that number. We'll say a new hero would start with 150 pts, plus up to 100 pts worth of character disadvantages. Divide this by 5 and you have 30 to 50 pts to work with. Divide it by 10, and you cut the number in half. Then you set up character creation to have a playable walk-through with an NPC advisor/helper, so the player can test out their build on an assortment of targets and what-not, before they decide to finalize their build. I'd go into greater detail, but that was long-winded enough already.

 

MMOs have to balance abilities VERY carefully esp when the game has PvP. It is bad if one powerset is more powerful than the rest. It makes the game less fun for those players who didn't take that uber build.

 

To the first line: DISCLAIMER: The abilities in this game may not always be perfectly balanced for PvP play. PvP at your own risk. I don't care one iota about PvP, and wouldn't expect a game based on CHAMPIONS to be balanced around PvP. In fact, I hate it when PvP is used as the "balance guide". However, I consider most of the abilities in the PnP system to be pretty well balanced against one another, on a point-per-effect basis. Digressing.

 

Powersets. Hate them. I can't state that enough. If they had gone with a more FLEXIBLE power system, meaning RAW powers that you customize to you personal specs, then we wouldn't have to worry about balancing entire sets against one another, just balancing individual powers against one another. It would probably never be perfect, but the existent system in CO will probably never be perfect either.

 

Also' date=' for the record. Cryptic's staff...[/quote']

 

Don't believe I said anything to the contrary of that portion, so I just cut it out.

 

Honestly' date=' I was unimpressed with the direction that the game took in beta and didn't purchase it as launch. It took another try at the game a few months better to see all of the improvements in the game. I have to say that I am having a ton of fun with it. My electrical blaster Metalstorm is just fun to play and tears stuff up! So I recently purchased the game and am playing and having fun.[/quote']

 

I'm glad you're enjoying the game. I was SO unimpressed with it, that I vowed not to buy it until they revamp the entire system into something more closely resembling HERO. And since that is unlikely to EVER happen, they will probably never see my money.

 

Cheers! :cheers:

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Re: Disappointment

 

Point based systems have a steep learning curve for building stuff.

 

I think you could resolve this issue by having two levels of character builder, something not unknown in these kind of games. So you could have some basic template characters that you fill out with package deals. Then you have the full system available to those that want the flexibility.

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Re: Disappointment

 

I think you could resolve this issue by having two levels of character builder' date=' something not unknown in these kind of games. So you could have some basic template characters that you fill out with package deals. Then you have the full system available to those that want the flexibility.[/quote']

 

Good thought.

 

Despite my own reservations about the new DDO, I was impressed by them offering the paths during character creation that allowed players to write up a character quickly while providing customizable generation for those willing to roll up their sleeves.

 

Personally, I'm in the camp that implementing the PnP rules in a computer game might be feasible, although I'm not sure if the HW/SW technology is up to making it playable.

 

I also find pandering to the PvP crowd tiresome.

 

But then, I know I don't represent the bulk of the target demographic for these sort of games. :)

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Re: Disappointment

 

I would have LOVED to play the Hero System online. I am legitimately very disappointed. I availed myself of this thread to simply say so.

 

In fairness, it never claimed to be Hero System Online. And of note I would also love to play HSO if it ever got made. CO isn't it. It is in my opinion a fun game anyway.

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Re: Disappointment

 

I never said that it wasn't made clear. I simply said that I hoped the system would more closely resemble the HERO System' date=' despite this knowledge. A system can bear resemblance without being a carbon copy. And the FAQ did state something about taking ideas and concepts from the HERO System, and that fans would recognize some elements... which is a load of manure.[/quote']

 

Funny, I DO recognize some elements, though I can see that you wish that they used the core system. Which would have been quite difficult, as I am know that they were building the game on code that already existed.

 

It's quite possible to gimp your character in the PnP game too, but I like having the option of making my character the way I want to, even if that means they're "gimped".

 

Oh I am sure that it is still possible to create characters that are suboptimal. I am sure that my character right now is less than optimal. Allowing players make characters that cannot defeat the basic content is financial suicide for a subscription modeled game.

 

I'm glad it was flexible enough for you, because it always felt way to restricted to me, especially as release was nearing.

 

Well, it wasn't hero. Though I wasn't expecting that. I was comparing it to the many other MMORPGs that I have played (ie CoX, EQ, EQII, WoW, SWG, TMO, and others).

 

I'm glad that you haven't read anything Steve has said on this subject, or anything that programmers have said to the contrary. It isn't that far-fetched a concept to HARD CODE minimum and maximums into a system so that a character isn't too horribly gimped OR overpowered. But even IF a character does end up "gimped" or "overpowered", they are likely gonna have different strengths and weaknesses. The "gimped" character may turn out to be some kind of jack-of-all-trades, with a little something for almost any scenario, with the "overpowered" guy is probably not gonna have a lot of options.

 

Talking about bringing a PnP points based system(ie hero System) into a computer game (ie MMORPG) is something that I have talked about to my partner. BTW she is a Sr Software Engineer who works at Activision. This is also a discussion that I have had on more than one occasion with her friends who are also Sr Software Engineers (or higher) at a variety of game companies. So while I am not personally a programmer, I have a large pool of experienced people that I can bounce ideas and opinions off of.

 

I guess it wouldn't be too hard to hard code powers into packages either... oh wait, that's what cryptic did. I read the thread where Steve talks about turning HS into a MMO. I think that you might be disappointed in how he would have to change the system to make it fit the realities of computer gaming.

 

I'm not exactly suggesting that you give a new character 350 points, and expect a newbie to know what the heck to do. In fact, MOST things in the HERO system can be broken down to fit into 3, 5 or 10 point divisibility, so you pick one, say 5 or 10, then start a character off with whatever the base value would be, divided by that number. We'll say a new hero would start with 150 pts, plus up to 100 pts worth of character disadvantages. Divide this by 5 and you have 30 to 50 pts to work with. Divide it by 10, and you cut the number in half. Then you set up character creation to have a playable walk-through with an NPC advisor/helper, so the player can test out their build on an assortment of targets and what-not, before they decide to finalize their build. I'd go into greater detail, but that was long-winded enough already.

 

Though how many changes do you make to a system till it no longer is that system? Much of what you are detailing resembles FUZION.

 

To the first line: DISCLAIMER: The abilities in this game may not always be perfectly balanced for PvP play. PvP at your own risk. I don't care one iota about PvP, and wouldn't expect a game based on CHAMPIONS to be balanced around PvP. In fact, I hate it when PvP is used as the "balance guide". However, I consider most of the abilities in the PnP system to be pretty well balanced against one another, on a point-per-effect basis. Digressing.

 

I actually don't care much for PvP myself. In fact I hate everything about PvP. Though having decent PvP in a MMO, gives players an interesting minigame that gives them something different to do when they are not plowing though your content. Also it gives characters at the powercap (ie level cap) something else to do, than run the last end game missions over and over again.

 

 

Powersets. Hate them. I can't state that enough. If they had gone with a more FLEXIBLE power system, meaning RAW powers that you customize to you personal specs, then we wouldn't have to worry about balancing entire sets against one another, just balancing individual powers against one another. It would probably never be perfect, but the existent system in CO will probably never be perfect either.

 

I'm glad you're enjoying the game. I was SO unimpressed with it, that I vowed not to buy it until they revamp the entire system into something more closely resembling HERO. And since that is unlikely to EVER happen, they will probably never see my money.

 

Cheers! :cheers:

 

I am not sure that anyone could make a game that is as open as you like and still have it be playable to most people. Yeah you could package up stuff to make it easier for folk to play, but you don't care for that. Basically there's no way for Cryptic to win. There was no way that they were going to rewrite the whole game engine, they just didn't have that much time. It is clear that they were looking to take the core they built for Marvel Online, and place it in a game world that would work with the elements already started. The could have come up with a new game world, but that takes time. I don't believe that cryptic had that time. One doesn't go IP shopping unless you don't have the time to create the world yourself.

 

Oh well, you don't have to play :D have a nice day :D

 

Tasha

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Re: Disappointment

 

It might be possible to create a MMO with all the complexity of the Hero System rules, or a reasonable facsimile thereof.

 

Would it be a cost-effective way of spending your development dollars, which are necessarily limited in number? Would you have a large enough target market that would welcome that level of complexity in character generation? No, on both counts. It might be possible, but it's extremely doubtful that it could be profitable.

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Re: Disappointment

 

It might be possible to create a MMO with all the complexity of the Hero System rules, or a reasonable facsimile thereof.

 

Would it be a cost-effective way of spending your development dollars, which are necessarily limited in number? Would you have a large enough target market that would welcome that level of complexity in character generation? No, on both counts. It might be possible, but it's extremely doubtful that it could be profitable.

 

That sums it up pretty well! Repped!

 

Tasha :D

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Re: Disappointment

 

It might be possible to create a MMO with all the complexity of the Hero System rules, or a reasonable facsimile thereof.

 

Would it be a cost-effective way of spending your development dollars, which are necessarily limited in number? Would you have a large enough target market that would welcome that level of complexity in character generation? No, on both counts. It might be possible, but it's extremely doubtful that it could be profitable.

 

 

How do you know? Did you develop a HERO System MMO that failed? No? What exactly are you basing this speculation on? Hmm.

 

The point of this thread is disappointment with "CHAMPIONS" Online. If you aren't disappointed with it, why do you care what's in this thread? Apparently I'm more of a hard-core CHAMPIONS/HERO fan than those of you who are happy with this trash called "CHAMPIONS" Online. That's fantastic.

 

I've posted in two places here: 1) A thread titled "Disappointment", and 2) A thread titled "'Hero System' Online". I didn't go out of my way to go to threads where people think CO is the greatest thing since sliced bread and tell those people they're wrong and their opinions suxxor. No, I went to a thread where I figured like-minded folk could share their distaste for the title, and ideas on what we would have liked to have seen.

 

If you aren't disappointed with CO, and you feel the need to come here and tell us we're wrong for having our own opinions, then all you're doing is trolling.

 

I would like to think that it would be possible for a game to have some basic (yet tweakable) templates, for those who just have a vague concept and want to get to crackin' skulls pronto, while simultaneously having the depth and flexibility of the HERO System, where players can get into the guts of their characters, building them from the ground up, and breaking down the basic templates, tweaking them to their individual preferences. I'd also like to think it's possible for there to be more to a superhero game than just "beating up bad guys." And I don't mean stupid crafting and/or PvP! Characters like Batman, Question, Rorschach, and any other investigatory character type have absolutely NO place in CO. If your character isn't all about bustin' heads, they don't belong.

 

In my opinion, CO is lacking in so many ways as to be just plain uninteresting. CoH got a LOT of leeway, being the first MMO to break into the genre. But the bar raises a little when 5 years go by and the tech increases dramatically. The bar gets raised a LOT more when the title being produced is based on one of the single most flexible RPG's ever designed. Making it a dumbed-down, beat-em-up game is just a slap in the face.

 

There are a multitude of aspects of CO which cause me disappointment. Just because I focused on the HERO System thing, doesn't mean that it's the only thing.

 

:cheers:

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Re: Disappointment

 

If you think that's trolling, you have a very odd definition of the word. If you want to imagine a fantasy world where a MMO that offers everything the Hero System Rules offers exists, go right ahead. I'm just injecting a dose of reality to the discussion for those who might think it's in any way likely to occur.

 

How do you know? Did you develop a HERO System MMO that failed? No? What exactly are you basing this speculation on? Hmm.

 

Because I work in software development and have some inkling of what I'm talking about. Plus, I have at least an ounce of business sense. MMOs are already very complicated beasts even with all the limits currently on them. They are accordingly very expensive to make. Further, a large percentage of their client base is the instant gratification sort, who just want to jump in and play and don't care about complex character generation.

 

A superhero MMO is already targeting a relatively small portion of the overall software games market, even trying to make it as accessible as possible, as CO does. So you're talking about adding a hugely complex RPG rules framework (and thus hugely expensive in terms of developer man-hours) to an already very complex game. How many people do you really think want all that complexity? DDO did a partial job of implementing the D&D rules, which is a far more popular game system than Hero and a far less complex one, and it didn't get them very much traction with the MMO market. Trying to develop a MMO that tries to be faithful to the Hero System Rules would be throwing money down a hole. You'd never see that feature pay off, in terms of customers attracted to the game because of it relative to the amount of money sunk into it that could have been spent making the game better in other ways. You'd also be taking a huge risk, because most MMOs fail and an overly targetted MMO like one centered on the Hero System Rules would just be asking to become a casualty.

 

If you can find an MMO developer with a vision to make the world a better place for Hero System fans everywhere and a corporate sugar daddy with a money tree and endless patience, sure it might be possible to make the game. But making it profitable is something else altogether.

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Re: Disappointment

 

How do you know? Did you develop a HERO System MMO that failed? No? What exactly are you basing this speculation on? Hmm.

 

The point of this thread is disappointment with "CHAMPIONS" Online. If you aren't disappointed with it, why do you care what's in this thread? Apparently I'm more of a hard-core CHAMPIONS/HERO fan than those of you who are happy with this trash called "CHAMPIONS" Online. That's fantastic.

 

I've posted in two places here: 1) A thread titled "Disappointment", and 2) A thread titled "'Hero System' Online". I didn't go out of my way to go to threads where people think CO is the greatest thing since sliced bread and tell those people they're wrong and their opinions suxxor. No, I went to a thread where I figured like-minded folk could share their distaste for the title, and ideas on what we would have liked to have seen.

 

If you aren't disappointed with CO, and you feel the need to come here and tell us we're wrong for having our own opinions, then all you're doing is trolling.

 

I would like to think that it would be possible for a game to have some basic (yet tweakable) templates, for those who just have a vague concept and want to get to crackin' skulls pronto, while simultaneously having the depth and flexibility of the HERO System, where players can get into the guts of their characters, building them from the ground up, and breaking down the basic templates, tweaking them to their individual preferences. I'd also like to think it's possible for there to be more to a superhero game than just "beating up bad guys." And I don't mean stupid crafting and/or PvP! Characters like Batman, Question, Rorschach, and any other investigatory character type have absolutely NO place in CO. If your character isn't all about bustin' heads, they don't belong.

 

In my opinion, CO is lacking in so many ways as to be just plain uninteresting. CoH got a LOT of leeway, being the first MMO to break into the genre. But the bar raises a little when 5 years go by and the tech increases dramatically. The bar gets raised a LOT more when the title being produced is based on one of the single most flexible RPG's ever designed. Making it a dumbed-down, beat-em-up game is just a slap in the face.

 

There are a multitude of aspects of CO which cause me disappointment. Just because I focused on the HERO System thing, doesn't mean that it's the only thing.

 

:cheers:

 

but the templates ARE tweakable. Hell you don't even have to use the things. You can mix and match abilities to your heart's content.

 

Non-combat content is something that hasn't really caught on in the MMO space. I am not really sure why the only non combat quests are fed ex quests, but it probably has to do with Dev cycle and where they can budget their limited time. Do they create a bajillion combat quests that are generally well liked or at least tolerated well or create puzzle quests that only appeal to a small segment of the population (the others either dropping the quest or looking up the answer online to get back to the combat quests).

 

I am really not sure that you could make even a non-mmo computer (or console) game with the depth that you require. I could be wrong, but no one has marketed anything close to what you are asking CO to be.

 

Perhaps it's because in your mind Champions = Hero System. To me Champions = Champions Universe and Hero System = Game Rules . So I was happy that someone would be taking the Champions IP and reimagining it to fit into a MMO. It was the fulfillment of the promise that the original side scrolling Vaporware Champions computer game couldn't deliver.

 

I guess you wanted a revolutionary game in the MMO space. I am happy with this evolutionary game.

 

BTW, I will point out that I was one of the original posters in this thread. I was very critical of issues that I saw in the game as it left Open beta. With the freebie weekend, I was finally able to see the changes that Cryptic made to make this game fun. There are still issues with the game, but those are slight balance things that the devs will be tweaking one way or the other for years to come.

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Re: Disappointment

 

If you can find an MMO developer with a vision to make the world a better place for Hero System fans everywhere and a corporate sugar daddy with a money tree and endless patience, sure it might be possible to make the game. But making it profitable is something else altogether.

 

I wouldn't do it as an MMO but thats a different story :D

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Re: Disappointment

 

Does that mean that I couldn't be hopeful that the system the DID implement would somehow RESEMBLE the HERO System? NO!!!!

 

Well, I guess it was unfortunate you had hopes not based on the fairly obvious relaity of what a MMO would be like.

 

Does it mean that I can't still be disappointed in the fact that there isn't a single *expletive deleted* game mechanic in CO that hearkens me back to the "good ol' days" of tabletop play? NO!!!!

 

No, you can feel however you like. And we can laugh as you shake your tiny fist of rage.

 

I was tracking info on Cryptic's MUO for a while. I was very excited about it, being a long-time Marvel fan. When Marvel backed out, I was very, very disappointed. But when it was announced that Cryptic was going a new direction with their new superhero MMO, calling it CHAMPIONS ONLINE, and basing it upon the RPG of the same name? Well, I don't think it was possible for me to be MORE excited! I thought an MMO would NEVER be produced that utilized the one thing everyone who actually knew about CHAMPIONS loved... the die-hard RPG system. I guess I was right. :(

 

 

the fact it was re-tooling an engine originally designed for a marvel game might have given a soul an inkling it wasnt goign to incorperate and semblance to pnp Champions rules.

Nay-say all you want, but there is no reason that CHAMPIONS ONLINE could not have utilized systems which would more closely resemble ... *ahem*... RESEMBLE various aspects of the PnP system.

 

none you are goign to listen to, I'm sure. The reasons are vast, obvious, but apparently facts are not goign to be a feature of thsi discussion, but likes and dislikes. We get it. You no likee. I suggest you move on, unless you are a professional bitterboy who only derives pleasure from hating and disliking things.

 

 

 

 

Seriously though, I never expected a perfect translation of the PnP rules to an MMO, but they could have at least made an EFFORT!

 

Why should they be so stupid? Appealing to the game mechanics of the tiny pnp crowd, or appealing to the MMO crowd?

 

I got in fairly early for the Alpha, and I NEVER EVER EVER say ANYTHING that even remotely resembled the PnP game. And don't try to slap me in the face with their "stat block", cuz that's only namesake, the stats don't work at all like they do in PnP.

 

well, of course they don't.

 

And unlike Antiklaus who states that he's not trying to trash talk CO... I am. I am beyond disappointed with the title. I think it's poo. Sure, it's poo in a nice, shiny box... but it's still poo. Until I read or hear from a RELIABLE SOURCE that Cryptic has overhauled the system to more closely adhere to the PnP rules, they won't see a dime of my money.

 

Frankly, they don't care about your money. They are far better off losing your buisness than tryign to appeal to you. Some customers simply aren't worth pleasing if pleasing them means wrecking your product.

 

 

When beta ended, so did my involvement in the title. I check periodically, in the hopes that a miracle will occur.

 

Stop wasting your time, that 'miracle' won't occur because Cryptic wouldn't make such a bad buisness decision.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Apparently I'm more of a hard-core CHAMPIONS/HERO fan than those of you who are happy with this trash called "CHAMPIONS" Online. That's fantastic.

 

I've never understood the logic in a statement like this. The whole "you like something based off of {fill in the blank IP} that I don't like, so that means I'm a better/more hard-core/cooler fan of {fill in the blank IP} than you" just makes no sense to me.

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Re: Disappointment

 

I've never understood the logic in a statement like this. The whole "you like something based off of {fill in the blank IP} that I don't like' date=' so that means I'm a better/more hard-core/cooler fan of {fill in the blank IP} than you" just makes no sense to me.[/quote']

 

Yeah I agree. Besides a MMO has no bearing on how much I love the Hero System and all of it's offshoots. If anyone doubts my dedication to the system or how hard core I am. They should look at photos of my Collection of Hero Games books. Once someone sees that, they have no doubt as to my dedication to this game (ie Hero System).

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Re: Disappointment

 

I wouldn't do it as an MMO but thats a different story :D

 

It would be a lot easier to do justice to the Hero System rules if you were not making a multiplayer game at all, much less an MMO. :thumbup:

 

On the downside, I'd still venture to guess that the market for a computer game that mimics the Hero System rules as closely as possible is not a lot larger than the number of people that are willing to play PnP games using said system in the first place. For a proposition as expensive as computer game development, that's still a very small revenue pool.

 

Best chance of seeing daylight: Labour of love single developer indie title. :love: Skip the feature laundry lists, high production values, and associated costs, and try to gather a following. The game might even make a little money, if it's lucky.

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Re: Disappointment

 

Best chance of seeing daylight: Labour of love single developer indie title. :love: Skip the feature laundry lists, high production values, and associated costs, and try to gather a following. The game might even make a little money, if it's lucky.

Drat! You've found me out!

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