Do you play CO as an MMO?

[freshrod]

Greetings

 

While I'm not one of the fan boys that will argue at length about what an MMO is and isn't, I'm just wondering if anyone is actually playing CO like an MMO. When I think of an MMO, I guess I think of a game that is built so that, at least parts, are set up so that you must play with a team. So far (I am currently lvl 23) I have no Supergroup, and have only, on rare occasion, joined a group to do anything. it's not that I wouldn't like to, I really haven't felt like I needed to.

 

I have jumped in to help out a fellow hero if I notice they are getting a serious beatdown from a mob or two. But that is only if I'm close by and not engaged myself.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I think CO has the potential to be a great MMO, but right now it really doesn't feel much like one. I see other players, but I rarely interact with them. I think (I really hope) CO will take some tips from other games to make it more player-interactive. At the moment there really doesn't seem to be any missions you can't solo (some suggest 2 or 3 players, but I've gone solo so far...), and I don't see any real PVP Supergroup compitition.

 

What I really think would be great would be if they make a Villians expansion. Then you could really see the potential for SG vs. SG tourneys, and even maps and instances. Think like Team Fortress 2 with Superheroes! Or like Guild Wars tourneys with Heroes vs Baddies!

 

Thoughts?

[NestorDRod]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

I stopped playing CoH a while ago, and am not going to be playing CO any time soon, but I still remember the long-running threads in the CoH forums arguing over that specific issue.

 

I guess I should feel some nostalgia by seeing it rear its Hydra-like head again...

[Checkmate]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

The problem with this is that most people don't want to need other people in their MMO's. The evidence of this is all around from the success of WoW to the radical change of Everquest 2 from a total reliance on others to almost no need for others at all.

 

Even CoH's suffered from this a bit. In the begining certian origins only had access to certain powers. For example trained humans couldn't shoot fire out of their eyes, and mutants would have a smaller number of powers but would they would be stronger than an Sceince based hero (this may not be entirely accurate, but meant to get the point across), that was all changed so any origin could have any powers.

 

While it disappoints me, it seems there is a set formula for all the MMO's that come out from now on, the mantra they stick to is "Keep it fun", which seems to be, for most, instant gratification. Everyone seems to be using the same forumla and anyone who has tried to stray has either gone under, or been changed to fit the formula.

 

The only suprising contridiction seems to be EvE Online. While the numbers aren't overwhelming, while most MMO's lose players over time, EvE has actually been gaining players, while keeping its "Hardcore" play style.

[ajackson]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

The missions you can't practically solo are some of the open missions and some of the higher end lairs. The first open mission you probably can't solo is the hangman mission in the desert (on the ledge above the ghost town), which is a plausible mission for a group at level 12-15 but is a rather easy mission to miss. The second is probably A Bullet for Bissell, at around level 20; you're more likely to actually hear people asking for assistance on that one. For lairs, you don't really run into un-soloable adventures until the Destroyer factory (level 28), Teleios' tower (level 30), or the Burial Caves (Level 31).

 

However, teamwork doesn't work very well in CO -- it's quite difficult to effectively assist teammates anyway, since the UI for targeting an ally with a heal is not very good (and there are few other buffing effects) and it's nearly impossible to reliably grab (or avoid) aggro.

[freshrod]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

However' date=' teamwork doesn't work very well in CO -- it's quite difficult to effectively assist teammates anyway, since the UI for targeting an ally with a heal is not very good (and there are few other buffing effects) and it's nearly impossible to reliably grab (or avoid) aggro.[/quote']

 

Yeah... it's really too bad they didn't put more effort into things like this that are essential to teamplay. The good part is that it's stil early enough for them to address those things and not lose too many players.

 

I did forget about the Bullet for Bissell, that Viper-X guy is near impossible...

[Trencher]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

One thing I hate in mmo's are when you crush enemy after enemy in a mission or cave and it ends with an boss that you need more players to take down! If the mission is going to be so hard you need more than one guy to do it let it be so hard from the get go. like in Guild wars. The two games that have such unbalanced missions are cox and warhammer online.

[freshrod]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

I guess I should feel some nostalgia by seeing it rear its Hydra-like head again...

 

Sorry, not trying to start anything... just feel like they really have a potential for a really great experience, they're just not there yet.

 

While it disappoints me' date=' it seems there is a set formula for all the MMO's that come out from now on, the mantra they stick to is "Keep it fun", which seems to be, for most, instant gratification. Everyone seems to be using the same forumla and anyone who has tried to stray has either gone under, or been changed to fit the formula.[/quote']

 

I like the "fun", but for many of us, we enjoy both PvE and PvP. I don't think there has to be a sacrifice of one for the other. I think the PvE is good for leveling and crafting, but the PvP could be good for those who don't want to create yet another character and walk them through the game, just so they can survive in the arena. I think they can do something for this.

 

However' date=' teamwork doesn't work very well in CO -- it's quite difficult to effectively assist teammates anyway, since the UI for targeting an ally with a heal is not very good (and there are few other buffing effects) and it's nearly impossible to reliably grab (or avoid) aggro.[/quote']

 

Yeah... I don't know why they didn't think more about this. The good thing is that they still have time to fix it before they lose too many players.

 

I hope they do. You can only beat up so many thousand henchmen before it loses it's thrill...

[rayoman]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

I was a beta tester for CoH and I played it for the first two years it was out (off and on). There were a couple of things that turned me off of CoH but the main thing was the soloability of missions and just traveling through certain areas was LOW, IMO. It seemed you were required to team up to progress.

 

I played WoW two months after it became live. I stayed with it for 4 years or so (left right before Wrath came out). I could quest when I wanted to without help OR I could team up with others when *I* wanted to instead of having some developer force me to do it in order to progress.

 

I hope CO will have some more five man instances but I don't want to be forced to group up if *I* don't want to.

 

Now, having said that I tend to offer to team up in the tutorial with ppl instead of forcing them to wait for the respawn. I tend to ask if ppl want to team up in other zones.

 

I have not participated in WoW raids nor have I done scheduled instances for a Guild. I was in a very laid back guild and a few of us did gather semi-regularly to run instances but I never felt it was a 2nd job. I know a husband and wife friend of mine who got burnt out playing WoW because they running instances every night of the week and it became a 2nd job for them. IF a game ever feels like a 2nd job then either a. I quit play it or b. I am going to get paid to do it.

[Checkmate]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

I was a beta tester for CoH and I played it for the first two years it was out (off and on). There were a couple of things that turned me off of CoH but the main thing was the soloability of missions and just traveling through certain areas was LOW, IMO. It seemed you were required to team up to progress.

 

I played WoW two months after it became live. I stayed with it for 4 years or so (left right before Wrath came out). I could quest when I wanted to without help OR I could team up with others when *I* wanted to instead of having some developer force me to do it in order to progress.

 

I hope CO will have some more five man instances but I don't want to be forced to group up if *I* don't want to.

 

Now, having said that I tend to offer to team up in the tutorial with ppl instead of forcing them to wait for the respawn. I tend to ask if ppl want to team up in other zones.

 

I have not participated in WoW raids nor have I done scheduled instances for a Guild. I was in a very laid back guild and a few of us did gather semi-regularly to run instances but I never felt it was a 2nd job. I know a husband and wife friend of mine who got burnt out playing WoW because they running instances every night of the week and it became a 2nd job for them. IF a game ever feels like a 2nd job then either a. I quit play it or b. I am going to get paid to do it.

And it's obvious from the numbers that the majority of players feel the same way you do. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this as it is now the accepted way.

 

I don't feel the same way however. This is my take, and only my take not saying mine is better, just the way I want MMO's to be:

 

When MMO's first came out I swore I'd never pay monthly to play a video game. Then some friends and I got extremely excited about Star Wars: Galaxies (SWG). They hype before the game came out finally had me convinced that there was an actual reason to pay monthly for a game. There was talk about being a politician where you could run for office and be the Mayor of a town, but others could run against you and take it from you. They made sure you needed other people in the game with you by limiting you to one character per server. You depneded on others for everything.

 

When the game came out, it didn't exactly live up to the hype, as very few games do, but there was still a reason to log in every day. I was a crafter, and resources would change and I'd have to fill my harvesters with power and money, as well as check my vendors. I loved that game because I had a reason to log in every day, and I felt like I could effect the world. I mean if you went to my server and asked for a droid engineer, most people on it would give my name.

 

So what I'm sort of long windedly saying is that if I'm going to pay monthly for an MMO, there has to be a reason to pay my money. If I can log out and log in a year later and nothing has changed besides some content updates, I feel I'm wasting my money. If I can log on accomplish everything I want to without ever needing to look at another player, let alone talk to one, I feel I'm wasting my money.

 

Again, not saying my way is right and yours is wrong, just saying what I feel

[rayoman]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

Just so we are clear. I never said I did not want to see another player. I am willing to team up with people. I just don't want to be forced to do it in order to progress.

 

I ask in the Hero games chat channel and in the Legion of Heroes SG if people need help, or if they want to team up. I am selective in who I want to team up with since I have been in groups where people have been jack asses.

[slikmar]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

I played CoH in beta and then live. I enjoyed it immensely, but got frustrated with how many of the quest Arcs would be soloable through the first 5 quests then all of a sudden you need 5 other guys to do the quest you have been working toward so hard. In CO me and my 2 friends have enjoyed our teaming up a lot, but know it isn't required.

To the point of teamwork. Rather then teamwork through roles (you tank, me dps, him healer, mooo mooo), I would rather see power effects that work off each other. A perfect example is Taser Arrow. It has an advantage that if taken, after an opponent is hit with it, any electrical attack done to that opponent in the next 12 seconds will cause a Energy Drain effect. So team your archer up with your electrical guy. I would like to see more of this type effect.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

I mostly played CoX and WoW solo. It feels very much like an MMO to me, but nonetheless, knowing other people's play styles, the development of team content, particularly with gopd, challenging lairs, should be a priority.

[freshrod]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

To the point of teamwork. Rather then teamwork through roles (you tank' date=' me dps, him healer, mooo mooo), I would rather see power effects that work off each other. A perfect example is Taser Arrow. It has an advantage that if taken, after an opponent is hit with it, any electrical attack done to that opponent in the next 12 seconds will cause a Energy Drain effect. So team your archer up with your electrical guy. I would like to see more of this type effect.[/quote']

 

I like those ideas as well. I, playing a Melee Brawler, teamed in CO with a high level Electric. I was awesome! She would shock them into quivering statues and I would break them.

 

I think since CO is unconventional it will take a while for good team synergy to form, but that's half the fun... discovery.

 

And to respond to what Checkmate and rayoman were saying, I think that CO has the potential to fill both desires. It already has a pretty solid single player RPG path, now if they can solidify the PvP part, this game is golden!

(ok, I realize there are more problems than that... but trying to remain optomistic, as this is now our best bet for a Super Power RPGMMO)

[rayoman]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

And to respond to what Checkmate and rayoman were saying, I think that CO has the potential to fill both desires.

 

I can agree with this statement.

 

 

 

It already has a pretty solid single player RPG path' date=' now if they can solidify the PvP part, this game is golden! [/quote']

 

I'm ok with PVP BUT PvP should not force balancing issues in PVE. What I am saying is, Cryptic needs to come up with a better system than nerfing powers that work perfectly fine in PVE because there are issues in PVP with the power. Blizzard was/is notorious for this behavior.

 

Why can't they do something like this:

 

Power A

Flavor Text

PVE: Power A has this effect.

PVP: Power A has a slightly different effect.

[Dragoon]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

I would love to see lairs at lower levels. Not involved with quest chains, or stuff that makes them 'necessary' to run, but as an option if you want to just try out some teamwork, or get used to seeing what it's like as opposed to soloing to 40, then trying to learn it all at once.

My might character seems to be able to rock 2- or sometimes 3-man missions if I take it slow and pull carefully. On my sorcerer I so want to get some healing powers to see what their like, but I just can't spare the slots without suffering in solo play

As for ad-hoc teaming up, I offer whenever I can. Any escort or group missions I'll invite people who are hanging around the same area just to save us all time if nothing else Plus you get bonus exp from teaming up.

[freshrod]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

I would love to see lairs at lower levels. Not involved with quest chains' date=' or stuff that makes them 'necessary' to run, but as an option if you want to just try out some teamwork, or get used to seeing what it's like as opposed to soloing to 40, then trying to learn it all at once..[/quote']

 

I think there are some... I think they are usually ones that citizens run up to you and give. But if you are talking about a type of lair/dungeon/whatever/separate instance that would scale to the player(s) level, and number of team members, that would be AWESOME!

 

My might character seems to be able to rock 2- or sometimes 3-man missions if I take it slow and pull carefully. On my sorcerer I so want to get some healing powers to see what their like, but I just can't spare the slots without suffering in solo play

As for ad-hoc teaming up, I offer whenever I can. Any escort or group missions I'll invite people who are hanging around the same area just to save us all time if nothing else Plus you get bonus exp from teaming up.

 

Again, I think that for CO we will have to stop approaching team play like your typical fighter/ranged/caster/healer set. It will take a different type of team dynamic. There doesn't seem to be anything like an actual healer class anyway. I actually think there will be some cool combos available for the right team-ups.

 

Wouldn't it be cool if Cryptic added some special powers for teams? Cannonball Special Anyone???

[NestorDRod]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

Again, I think that for CO we will have to stop approaching team play like your typical fighter/ranged/caster/healer set. It will take a different type of team dynamic. There doesn't seem to be anything like an actual healer class anyway. I actually think there will be some cool combos available for the right team-ups.

 

Actually, having CO not go for the stereotypical D&D role-based team dynamic would be something that would attract me to actually play the game.

 

When CoH was first announced, I had no interest in playing EverQuest-in-Tights. When somebody showed me that the game deviated from the classic MMO tropes (no crafting, no PvP, no lewt), I actually got into it. As those elements crept into the game, my interest waned.

 

If I had any hope that a) CO would also avoid those elements, and continue to keep them out of the game, I would seriously consider joining the playerbase.

[ajackson]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

On my sorcerer I so want to get some healing powers to see what their like' date=' but I just can't spare the slots without suffering in solo play [/quote']

Sure you can. Most healing powers can be used on yourself. Summoning stuff to do damage and then sitting there using healing to keep yourself up while your summons do damage is a viable option.

[SvZurich]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

In CoH the devs promised that if we played on Heroic difficulty (base difficulty) then we would not need help in our missions and could solo them. In CoV they forgot that and had missions you could solo all the way to the end where you needed a team to take down the boss. Fail.

 

I work nights and prefer to play the game mostly solo with the option to chat. Finding I can't complete my mission due to now needing more people for one fight, and that the server population was low at that hour was a dealbreaker. I don't care if they fixed that, I am in CO now.

[freshrod]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

If I had any hope that a) CO would also avoid those elements' date=' and continue to keep them out of the game, I would seriously consider joining the playerbase.[/quote']

 

I completely agree. I think, as it is, they are trying to stay away from it. Of course there will always be some similarities, given the platform and all. But what I really fear is that the Majority of the players, who I fear are mostly WoW burn-outs, will push the Devs to move closer and closer to a standard fantasy MMO clone.

 

I am still holding out hope as I am still having fun with the PvE game, but I can already see where, at some point, it will grow stale and I'll be longing for something more...

[NestorDRod]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

I completely agree. I think, as it is, they are trying to stay away from it. Of course there will always be some similarities, given the platform and all. But what I really fear is that the Majority of the players, who I fear are mostly WoW burn-outs, will push the Devs to move closer and closer to a standard fantasy MMO clone.

 

I am still holding out hope as I am still having fun with the PvE game, but I can already see where, at some point, it will grow stale and I'll be longing for something more...

 

That's encouraging news, but, for example, I've been led to believe the game already has some sort of crafting (defined as building items which can then be "sold" to other players).

 

While I can see that sort of activity as feasible in a fantasy-based MMO, it just doesn't fit, IMO, in the superhero genre. I mean, how many times have we seen Reed Richards or even Tony Stark shilling geegaws on the street corner?

[Eightfold_Path]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

Funny, for me, it's the roleplaying and other social experiences in an MMO that make it an MMO instead of a fancy console game. One doesn't have to be in an SG/guild to have a social life in the game.

 

I definitely play CO as an MMO, though I do solo many missions. I also hang out with my RP buddies, chat in the various private channels, and RP as much as fight bad guys.

[Zed-F]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

Why can't they do something like this:

 

Power A

Flavor Text

PVE: Power A has this effect.

PVP: Power A has a slightly different effect.

Personally, while I've seen this suggested a number of times, I am not a fan of splitting PvE and PvP versions of skills. The biggest reason is power creep, which I am also not a fan of.

 

If you split into PvP and PvE versions of skills, the main reason to keep skills balanced for PvE falls by the wayside, because as a general rule PvP players are much more interested in balance while PvE players are more interested in progression. So if you split the PvE and PvP skills, over time you tend to get a constant progression of increasingly uber PvE skills that trivializes old content, which assumed a less uber balance of skills. As a result, only the newest portions of the game are worth playing as that's the only place you'll find any challenge at all. I've seen this happen with Guild Wars over the last several years, and IMHO it both hurts replayability and emphasizes FotM builds. In a game which tries to discourage FotM metagaming at least somewhat (like CO) rather than embracing it wholeheartedly (like Guild Wars), it strikes me as a risky road to pursue.

 

I personally would rather see a balance maintained for both PvP and PvE in the same skills, and don't object to PvE nerfs as long as they also buff the underperforming skills.

[archermoo]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

I absolutely play CO as an MMO. The style of MMO play I prefer is solo. Fortunately at least so far I am not having any problems playing the game with my preferred style. But then again my highest level character is 21st, so there is a lot of the game I haven't seen yet.

 

As to PvP, as long as I don't have to participate in it in any way, shape or form I don't really care about it.

[archermoo]

Re: Do you play CO as an MMO?

 

That's encouraging news, but, for example, I've been led to believe the game already has some sort of crafting (defined as building items which can then be "sold" to other players).

 

While I can see that sort of activity as feasible in a fantasy-based MMO, it just doesn't fit, IMO, in the superhero genre. I mean, how many times have we seen Reed Richards or even Tony Stark shilling geegaws on the street corner?

 

It exists, but the selling stuff to other players isn't mandatory as far as I've been able to tell. I make stuff for myself.