Elemental Controls

[McCoy]

Originally posted by Jeff

Should this be a new thread yet?

 

I think you might be underestimating Batman's PER roll there. I figure he's a good candidate for INT 23, paying past NCM or not. But more than that, chuckles has a PER roll that's boosted well above that, maybe from levels, maybe from the enhanced PER roll route, maybe both, and he's likely got a host of skills a GM would allow as complementary to PER rolls under those circumstances. A specific Danger Sense probably isn't necessary for him - the PER rolls are routinely high enough that any natural skill vs. skill contest is a losing proposition for the ambushers.

So the net effect of calling these PER roll enhancements "Danger Sense" is that he gets TWO perception rolls when walking into an ambush. Mechanics are simpler.

 

Call it intuition if you like. A combination of subliminal perception, training ("If I were seting up an ambush, this is where I would do it") and paranoia.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by McCoy

And FREd contradicts that opinion, p. 64, "(base ability is Detect Danger Detectable By Normal Human Senses In Combat, Including Range To Danger [5 Character Points], Increased Arc Of Perception [360 Degrees; +5 points], plus Targeting; Only If Make Half Roll [-1])"

 

"Detectable By Normal Human Senses"

 

Precognition or paranoia is a matter of Special Effect, not mechanics. Bat's Perception roll should be 13-, are we to assume his attackers NEVER make their stealth roll? That level of luck seems more supernatural that reacting to subliminal danger cues. He is sometimes suprised, not as often as someone with a 20 INT should be.

 

I'd give Batman I boosted PER, above what his raw INT would give him.

 

Anyway, as to Danger Sense, I've read the section in the book. IN MY OPINION (that was the "IMO" part), Danger Sense should be reserved for those with some kind of non-normal ability to sense danger, and generally not used to simulate the perceptive or the paranoid.

[Dust Raven]

Wow...look at all the talk about Elemental Controls!

Originally posted by Kristopher

I'd give Batman I boosted PER, above what his raw INT would give him.

 

Anyway, as to Danger Sense, I've read the section in the book. IN MY OPINION (that was the "IMO" part), Danger Sense should be reserved for those with some kind of non-normal ability to sense danger, and generally not used to simulate the perceptive or the paranoid.

 

I hqve to disagree here. That's like saying Energy Blast should be reserved for characters who can fire beams of energy from their eyes and hands. Danger Sense is the ability to sense danger. Nowhere does it say that the SFX can't be "highly perceptive" or "paranoid."

 

Personally though...I'd just give Batman the Intuition Danger Sense to simulate that "hunch" that something's not right, but he doesn't know quite what. Then he'd also get a bonus to his PER roll, maybe even limited to making a Danger Sense Roll...to locate the source of the danger.

 

Batman senses something is not quite right...he pauses and glances to his left in time to see a shadow moving outside the window...

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

I hqve to disagree here. That's like saying Energy Blast should be reserved for characters who can fire beams of energy from their eyes and hands. Danger Sense is the ability to sense danger. Nowhere does it say that the SFX can't be "highly perceptive" or "paranoid."

This is a good point. I tend to think that Powers are pretty "superhuman," though, whereas boosted Skills and Per rolls are just "exceptional;" anyone could do it, just not nearly so well. Everyone is allowed Per rolls to avoid being surprised (subject to the GM, of course), so there is no reason to think Batman has to have Danger Sense, necessarily. I'm not saying it couldn't be that; I just don't think that's the way I'd buy it.

 

I would say Batman had Danger Sense if he were aware in a situation where there was clearly no way normal senses could warn of a problem (invisible attacker--to sight, hearing, and without olfactory Distinctive Features--perhaps). I can't really think that I've seen Batman react outstandingly in that kind of situation. Now Spiderman obviously has a supernatural ability (this could just be the Special Effects of his +10 Per, but somehow that just doesn't sit right). Although I can't think of specific instances, I am also pretty sure his power warns him about things normal people just wouldn't be able to notice, no matter how observent.

[Farkling]

I'd give old Bats Danger Sense...

He has vast experience, knowledge, perception, and practice.

 

Is this a KS: Supervillan roll? KS: Coal Processing? Or Danger Sense?

"Alfred, I'm leaving. Tell Tim to monitor for my call. There's been a robbery at the coal plant by the Joker. There are only three things that he would want that much carbon for, and none of them are good for the city."

 

Again:

"Hmm. There's only five of them. They seem unusually confident. Where is the sniper then?"

 

Or the classic one from Kingdom Come::

Voice from the Darkness in the Batcave "Bruce?"

Bats: "Oh...it's you."

Superman steps forth from the Shadows "You expected me?"

Bats: "I knew you'd be by sooner or later Clark."

 

That one makes it seem like Danger Sense to me...admittedly, he may have made a PER roll and a KS roll to realize it was Superman and that no harm was meant...but it just feels so much more like a PC saying "is Bats in danger?" and getting a firm No from the GM...

 

I think the difference is degree...in a Heroic level game...or Street/Dark Level Champions I'd probably opt for the PER approach. In Full Supers and higher, I'd put Danger Sense in the package also...that Danger Sense roll would do wonders for the callous attitude Batman has towards some emergencies. Emergencies that aren't really emergencies in the sense of "endangerment" of the populace. Gives a great reason for the serndipity effect that Batman has too...maybe a broader form of Clairsentience would be more appropriate in that case...after all...he shows up in adventures with other heroes when things have gone completely wrong...

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Farkling

I'd give old Bats Danger Sense...

He has vast experience, knowledge, perception, and practice.

As far as that goes, it's sounding like KS's, Deduction, INT, and PER roll bonuses - just in vast quantities. That's particularly fitting since you'd want those for Batman quite apart from anything to do with picking up danger.

Is this a KS: Supervillan roll? KS: Coal Processing? Or Danger Sense?

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Alfred, I'm leaving. Tell Tim to monitor for my call. There's been a robbery at the coal plant by the Joker. There are only three things that he would want that much carbon for, and none of them are good for the city."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deduction, KS: Joker, various KS's and/or SC's - all things you can't model Bats without already. I can't see this as an example of Danger Sense at all, much less a good example that he's got to have it. (I'm not married to the notion he can't - I just think he's the world's best candidate for getting away without it on account of quite a bit else.)

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Hmm. There's only five of them. They seem unusually confident. Where is the sniper then?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A good example of Deduction at work, possibly with complementary rolls of Tactics and KS: Thugs.

Again:

 

 

Or the classic one from Kingdom Come::

Voice from the Darkness in the Batcave "Bruce?"

Bats: "Oh...it's you."

Superman steps forth from the Shadows "You expected me?"

Bats: "I knew you'd be by sooner or later Clark."

 

That one makes it seem like Danger Sense to me...admittedly, he may have made a PER roll and a KS roll to realize it was Superman and that no harm was meant...but it just feels so much more like a PC saying "is Bats in danger?" and getting a firm No from the GM...

Can't exactly tell you you're feeling wrong there, but I can say it's not a vibe I get. Deduction and KS: Superman (ya, he's got that too - he knows the man) would lead to an expectation; a PER roll would recognize the voice.

 

I can't see this as simply the result of information he's not in danger, either. "Not in danger" plus "someone's here" doesn't get you to "it's just Supes" - not without things like Deduction and PER rolls on the part of the character or canny inference on the part of the player. And, alas, we can't model Batman saying he must only be played by canny players although that'd probably be better than 1000 points in skills and talents to get him right.

I think the difference is degree...in a Heroic level game...or Street/Dark Level Champions I'd probably opt for the PER approach.

Funny thing - in a heroic game, you could never afford the vast wealth of skills and PER roll bonuses that would account for his ability plausibly to get away without buying Danger Sense.

 

For Batman, I think Danger Sense is a bit of a cheat or a temptation to be controlled, since it may lead you to model the character without all the skills he should have and an awareness of their full application.

In Full Supers and higher, I'd put Danger Sense in the package also...that Danger Sense roll would do wonders for the callous attitude Batman has towards some emergencies. Emergencies that aren't really emergencies in the sense of "endangerment" of the populace. Gives a great reason for the serndipity effect that Batman has too...maybe a broader form of Clairsentience would be more appropriate in that case...after all...he shows up in adventures with other heroes when things have gone completely wrong...

He's got the Really Popular Character Perk for that.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Jeff

Should this be a new thread yet?

 

I think you might be underestimating Batman's PER roll there. I figure he's a good candidate for INT 23, paying past NCM or not. But more than that, chuckles has a PER roll that's boosted well above that, maybe from levels, maybe from the enhanced PER roll route, maybe both, and he's likely got a host of skills a GM would allow as complementary to PER rolls under those circumstances. A specific Danger Sense probably isn't necessary for him - the PER rolls are routinely high enough that any natural skill vs. skill contest is a losing proposition for the ambushers.

Batman should probably have a much higher intelligence. Superhuman intelligences according to the Champions Genre Book start at 51+. I'd say there aren't too many legendary intelligences better than Bats so I'd put him in the 35-40 range in intelligence. Reed Richards and Lex Luthor would be 50.

 

If you don't like this you're not playing by the book, by the way. Not that that is a bad thing...

[Agent X]

Originally posted by zornwil

New thread!? NEVER! Any decent thread has to be thoroughly hi-jacked as proof of its death!

 

As to your point, mmm, maybe, I'm not so sure; Bats seems capable in many instances of sensing danger where I as a GM wouldn't allow a PER roll. But maybe I'm PER-roll-stingy. However, you have a good point as to other skills which may trigger the same effect; still, I worry that's trumping the actual game effects of Danger Sense with skills just a tad too far. I guess I'd have to see game examples.

I thought a perception roll meant you actually perceive something. Danger sense can be used for someone who knows something is wrong but can't quite place why. Sounds like Batsy.

[McCoy]

Originally posted by Agent X

I thought a perception roll meant you actually perceive something. Danger sense can be used for someone who knows something is wrong but can't quite place why. Sounds like Batsy.

That's what I'm saying.

 

Plus the Talents seem more, um, pulp than four color. I believe the original list was taken from the Doc Savage novels. And in may ways Batman is a pulp hero, with more in common with Doc Savage, the Phantom, and the Shadow than Superman and Wonder Woman.

 

Bottom line, Danger Sense or no, Batman should not be considered the model Champions character (which is how the subject came up).

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Agent X

Batman should probably have a much higher intelligence. Superhuman intelligences according to the Champions Genre Book start at 51+. I'd say there aren't too many legendary intelligences better than Bats so I'd put him in the 35-40 range in intelligence. Reed Richards and Lex Luthor would be 50.

 

If you don't like this you're not playing by the book, by the way. Not that that is a bad thing...

 

AAAAAAAAARRGH!!!!

 

Stat bloat!!!!

 

I've never seen any reason to place any of those characters or any other at 50 INT.

 

(I guess I can skip the Champions Genre Book of that's the kind of silly advice it's giving.)

[Farkling]

I don't remember the Champions Genre Book covering Stat Bloat. I'll have to find it and read it again. (Obviously I don't need it for much.)

 

Bats with an INT of 50 ?? He's got a 19- with every INT based skill right out of the box? Who needs superpowers...Bats can now pick a lock in under a second without breaking stride...and has a 25% chance to sneak in broad daylight? (an impossible task)...not in my book.

 

Incidentally, Bats wasn't really ripped off of Doc Savage...that "all trades master planner always prepared motif" appeared in the comics when he had to compete with the big boys.

 

Siegel and Schuster ripped off Doc Savage to make SUPERMAN.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Agent X

I thought a perception roll meant you actually perceive something. Danger sense can be used for someone who knows something is wrong but can't quite place why. Sounds like Batsy.

 

Agreed, that's what I meant by the GM not allowing a PER roll. Just clarifying.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Kristopher

AAAAAAAAARRGH!!!!

 

Stat bloat!!!!

 

I've never seen any reason to place any of those characters or any other at 50 INT.

 

(I guess I can skip the Champions Genre Book of that's the kind of silly advice it's giving.)

 

I wouldn't judge the book based on that. It's pretty good actually.

 

Still, to move this train further off-track, I'm not sure why stat bloat in a super-world is that wrong. Just depends on the campaign level.

[McCoy]

Originally posted by Farkling

Incidentally, Bats wasn't really ripped off of Doc Savage...that "all trades master planner always prepared motif" appeared in the comics when he had to compete with the big boys.

 

Siegel and Schuster ripped off Doc Savage to make SUPERMAN.

Didn't say he was a Doc Savage ripoff, said his genre roots, which proceeded Superman, were closer to Doc Savage. He's a pulp hero, not a superhero.

[Gary]

Originally posted by badger3k

Again, you seem to miss my point. Senses that are subconscious are a different matter than consciously sending something out. There are other problems I have with lariats power concept, though, as I thought I explained.

 

A matter of opinion. A targetting sense that has a 5" range has a lot less information to process than a targetting sense with over 100" range.

 

Originally posted by badger3k

Its not a matter of information overload. In my campaign people have great powers but are still human. They cannot do two things that require a lot of attention at once. Subconscious actions are another issue. Try to type your reply while you are playing a video game (use one hand for each). If you can do that, then we'll see about the rest. Catching a baseball without looking, just reaching up, from a seated position, is made of millions of bits of info. But I've done it. Does that mean that I can write a book while doing it? Or sing a song while thinking the lyrics of another - at the same time. I don't mean sing then think, or sing while you "play" lyrics in your head - concentrate on the words of the one in your head, while singing - try to do both without shifting your focus back and forth. Of course, since I can't show what I mean, that may be a hideous example.

 

I believe in superhumans who are still human. No cosmic-powered omniprescience power in my game.

 

Ah, now we get to the crux of it. You have your own opinion of how to run a world, and it just happens to be different from mine. I happen to like supers who are SUPERS (ie like characters in comics) rather than merely peak humans. Just a difference of philosophy.

 

 

Originally posted by badger3k

I would not allow it, efficient or not, because it violates the spirit of the EC, as well as is looking for too much at once. Your whole rationale is a completely subjective interpretation of a piece of fiction. My rational is the same. So who's right? Again - using a completely subjective argument is like using none. How many phases is a panel? It's all subjective (to repeat myself ad nauseum).

 

How does her EC violate the spirit of the rules? I just don't see how someone with such a consistent well defined set of powers which are merely different manifestations of the same uberpower could not qualify.

 

Originally posted by badger3k

Damn - that stung. I'm so hurt I'm gonna cry. I thought I made it clear that I've never seen any sense or purpose to use them. I've found a MP does the overall job much better. I guess you're right though - I have no experience so I have no idea what I'm talking about . I've given two completely separate reasons why I do not use them. You have no problems trying to have a character do muliple things in a second. Do you allow a character who can pick a lock, read a book, blast somebody behind him with a blast pistol, and shave his beard. All at once. I prefer to go to a little less make-believe. Even Grond can only make one attack at a time (never mind the multi-power attack fiasco). And before anyone asks - I do think the one-second phase is silly, but it's a lesser annoyance that can be ignored most of the time).

 

The game system handles it quite nicely. You can't pick a lock, read a book, blast somebody behind him with a blast pistol, and shave his beard at the same time because they each require a separate attack action. However, you are allowed to half leap, stretch, use an enhanced sense, turn on a defense, and save a half phase action to missile deflect. Of course in your own personal campaign, you can do anything you want, but the default campaign allows all that.

 

 

Originally posted by badger3k

On what do you base that? I'd rather not get bogged down in point-think when playing the game. A powers value comes from more than just the points in it - it's how often its used, how useful it is when it's used, how the GM and player make use of situations where it is or isn't useful, heck - I'm probably missing more than I can remember. Trying to reduce it to number is irrational - is a 10d6 EB worth more than a 5d6 Entangle? Accorcing to math they're equal. But player A uses his EB 100% of the time - so it is really valued more - but player B uses the opposite - so the EB is worthless to him. But that can't be right - they are worth the same number of points!

 

It's like statistics - worthless, except when you want to 'prove' something. Game balance comes from more than numbers. If you feel differently after playing so long, then we'll never see eye to eye on that.

 

Here's another example. One guy uses one slot 90% of the time. He loves it. So the rest are devalued in your opinion. Then he uses one of those 10% slots, poor little useless point drain, to stop the world-destroying machine. He saved the world. Is that power only good for 10% then? How about if he uses another slot to save someones life, which in the end nets him a free contact for life - (no points spent, so none to add up for a value - its all GM fiat). How much is that worth? How about another slot that is only used once in 10 adventures, then results in the downfall of Dr Destroyer. Only worth 10%?

 

If you make 100 attacks, use one slot with 90 of them, and have 2 attacks each with the other 5 slots, then yes I think the other 5 slots are devalued. And yes, if a little used slot just happens to save the world or stop Dr Destroyer, it's worth the points. However, that is a highly unlikely occurance. And if a slot is used 90 attacks out of 100, I would say that the player himself values that slot the most. A multipower with 5 slots is not 5 times as valuable as a straight power.

 

 

Originally posted by badger3k

If that ends up all I can do after 6 adventures, while my buddy with the multipower can now do 5 more things with his power, then yeah - the tradeoff of one aspect (combat superiority with equal powers) over usefulness in an adventure is not worth it. I can fly and fire a full strength EB at my opponent, while my buddy can't do that, the entangle he has sure came in handy when my EB didn't have any effect. His force wall saved the innocent bystanders. I could only stand and watch. Yep - being able to fly and fire sure is important and worth more.

 

Yeah, but since you can fly and protect yourself and attack at the same time while your buddy can't, he's probably dead from the first 4d6 RKA thrown at him. Or else he can't even make it to the adventure because he has to call a taxi.

 

Originally posted by badger3k

Its all in how its used. If your game is strictly combat, then that's fine for you. Combat isn't the only thing in mine, though. If ECs were so useful for everything, then why doesn't everybody have one? Mechanon doesn't have one - neither does Dr Destroyer. If Ultron and Dr Doom aren't effective characters (since an EC would be much more effective), then who is?

 

Dr Destroyer and Mechanon don't have to worry about points. If you have 2000+ points to play with, ECs aren't really necessary.

 

Combat isn't everything, but it's how we judge the value of powers in the game. If noncombat was equally important, then why is it that a decent attack costs 20 times as much as a noncombat skill? Why are most power limitations based on how much they reduce a power's combat effectiveness? Like it or not, combat is the basis for all of the game's costs.

 

 

Originally posted by badger3k

Pardon me for not laughing. Don't teach your grandpa how to suck eggs, son . I never said I didn't understand - I just have different values. You equate points saved on combat utility over all the other factors (it seems to me that all your arguments are based on MP vs EC in straight out fight). I think that one aspect is overshadowed by the others. Points are useful,but in no case reflect "balance" or anything related to it.

 

But like I said, that's my opinion. You have yours. We'll "ne'er the twain shall meet" as they say (although who 'they' are is open to debate and cause for concern in the halls of power).

 

Sorry to anybody who is tired of this issue - may or may not post its like again unless its something new.

 

I agree, it's a matter of opinion. However, I would invite you to build a character with 2/3 of his points in noncombat skills and see how much you would enjoy the typical campaign.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

As with any character concept, it would be your choice whether to change it and my choice whether to allow it without changes. As I said, while I see some signs of "every defense" syndrome, I also don't see any exotic defenses which mitigates the concern somewhat. I could just as easily consider allowing the structure on the basis that "NND vs Force Field" will affect her because her so-called force field doesn't shelter every square inch of her skin.

 

Of course, what may help more in this case is the fact I don't generally ban 0 END powers from EC's, so I'd allow the force field to be converted to armor without taking "costs END". It's the same DEF as a 0 END force field anyway, and that's legal. [Farkling won't, but he hasn't complained about having both defenses anyway]

 

Maybe I'm just feeling generous since Steve made the 19d6 piledriver go away (twice! ).

 

Steve never allows me to have any fun. I do agree that V/5 maneuvers should generally be banned from most superheroic campaigns, since it's too easy to buy up your movements.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

So you can't build a turtleneck and a ski mask to be worn in emergencies?

 

That won't stop a Hinkley or Oswald type attacker. Or a bomb, grenade, gas, or many super powers. The turtleneck and ski mask would only be helpful in a siege type situation, and that's a low probability event.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Well, you know Gary will tell us its far more powerful than putting all those powers in a multipower with a big pool, since he can then use them all at once and run out of END quicker.

 

I think a big pool, with a lot of small powers and Stretching as the only one going up to the pool max, would be about right. The more of his body he uses to wrap around people, catch bullets , etc. the less distance he gets with the unused body parts.

 

I would keep the str, stretching, and force field in the EC. I would stick the entangle, missile deflection, and nnd in a multipower. I would get rid of megastretching, since I've never seen Reed stretch for kilometers at a time.

 

Much more efficient this way.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X

Excellent point.

 

There's another thing in 5th Edition that Multipowers and Elemental Controls lose though... Multiple Power Attacks. To get the cost breaks that Elemental Controls and Multipowers give you, you lose the ability to fire that Flash Attack, Energy Blast, and Ranged Killing Attack at your target, all at once! This is obviously an expensive opiton. Of course, if you get creative with foci and charges limitations you can probably afford this.

 

That tears it, limitations are "overly generous" too. I guess we should just flip a coin to see who wins the fight.

 

Seriously, there are a million and one ways to look at this. The true test is simple, characters in play. Multipower characters with no ECs work. EC characters with no Multipower work. EC/Multipower charactes work. Characters with no framework work. Etc.

 

I disagree. Characters with no framework are at a huge disadvantage compared to multi/EC or characteristic based characters. Lariat is a nice simple conception with no real weaknesses, but is able to have a OCV 11, DCV 13, 2 levels, 12d6 attack, 32 defenses, dex 30, spd 6, and high figured stats as well as a decent number of points for noncombat skills. She's a lot tougher than most 350 pt characters because she's built to exploit the system and take advantage of the efficiencies of characteristics and ECs. As several posters here have stated, she's at the top of the scale for virtually every category limit for starting characters. And by placing a cheesy overall limit like OIHID and cutting some frills, I can probably reduce her to 250 pts.

 

 

Originally posted by Agent X

If you look at the game as a whole and stop taking things out of context you will see that everything has its corresponding advantages and disadvantages... and that a flexible system designed to build any character concept is necessarily going to allow a player to be abusive in many areas without a good GM looking at the entirety of the character construction. Very few things need outright bans. Most things simply need the GM to scrutinize the character construction and give an honest, unprejudiced assessment of what the character can do.

 

Yeah, it requires heavy GM supervision to balance the roles. The rules as is, won't produce balanced characters even for non-abusive conceptions.

 

As an example, I refer you to the brick and martial artist who pay the exact same number of points but the brick gets a lot more out of it. In practice most GM's enforce dex/spd limits on bricks, but otherwise there would be no game mechanic reason to play a martial artist. It's a lot more efficient to play a brick with base martial arts.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary

I disagree. Characters with no framework are at a huge disadvantage compared to multi/EC or characteristic based characters. Lariat is a nice simple conception with no real weaknesses, but is able to have a OCV 11, DCV 13, 2 levels, 12d6 attack, 32 defenses, dex 30, spd 6, and high figured stats as well as a decent number of points for noncombat skills. She's a lot tougher than most 350 pt characters because she's built to exploit the system and take advantage of the efficiencies of characteristics and ECs. As several posters here have stated, she's at the top of the scale for virtually every category limit for starting characters. And by placing a cheesy overall limit like OIHID and cutting some frills, I can probably reduce her to 250 pts.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, it requires heavy GM supervision to balance the roles. The rules as is, won't produce balanced characters even for non-abusive conceptions.

 

As an example, I refer you to the brick and martial artist who pay the exact same number of points but the brick gets a lot more out of it. In practice most GM's enforce dex/spd limits on bricks, but otherwise there would be no game mechanic reason to play a martial artist. It's a lot more efficient to play a brick with base martial arts.

I am going to say something shocking. I just don't care about the typical martial artist in a Champions game. They are pointless. It makes sense that they need a magic sword, a good find weakness score, gizmo, or a utility belt to be competitive. There is a reason Richard Dragon Kung Fu fighter and Shang Chi MOKF didn't join the JLA or Avengers. I don't cut martial artists any slack. If you want to be a martial artist that's your business. I think it's best if you have a power construct that exploits the genre and gives you something besides martial maneuvers and a 20 strength to deal with "Megalor the Chaos Titan."

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Steve never allows me to have any fun. I do agree that V/5 maneuvers should generally be banned from most superheroic campaigns, since it's too easy to buy up your movements.

 

Well, v/5 = 5" per d6 = 1d6 per 10 points, plus these maneuvers typically have some OCV and/or DCV penalties. It can be abused, but so can straight EB's or hand attacks.

 

Originally posted by Gary

That won't stop a Hinkley or Oswald type attacker. Or a bomb, grenade, gas, or many super powers. The turtleneck and ski mask would only be helpful in a siege type situation, and that's a low probability event.

 

The turtleneck and ski mask would remove the lack of full armour coverage. And it's the sledge type situation when heroes are really worried about protecting the soft targets in combat. They need noncombat abilities to deal with the Hinkley/Oswald situation.

 

A bomb/grenade? He has full 8/8 armor coverage now so you'll need a pretty powerful bomb. Gas isn't stopped by most super defenses (other than life support). And remember, the hero's big concern tends to be whether the president lives. 8/8 Armor would go a long way iun the typical scenario - often, you only need to buy a phase or two so a fast mover can evacuate him.

 

Availability of 8/8 armor to the general public, even if only the wealthy can access it, is a major campaign changer.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

I disagree. Characters with no framework are at a huge disadvantage compared to multi/EC or characteristic based characters. Lariat is a nice simple conception with no real weaknesses, but is able to have a OCV 11, DCV 13, 2 levels, 12d6 attack, 32 defenses, dex 30, spd 6, and high figured stats as well as a decent number of points for noncombat skills. She's a lot tougher than most 350 pt characters because she's built to exploit the system and take advantage of the efficiencies of characteristics and ECs. As several posters here have stated, she's at the top of the scale for virtually every category limit for starting characters. And by placing a cheesy overall limit like OIHID and cutting some frills, I can probably reduce her to 250 pts.

 

To restate your key phrase "built to exploit the system". This is a vulnerability of any point-based system, and min/max'ing isn't that tough in most other systems.

 

If we eliminate every ability which COULD be (ab)used to exploit the system, FREd would be much thinner!

 

Let's look at another option. Lariat spent 77 points on her EC. What else could we do with 77 points?

 

hmmm...another 30 DEX (her 6 speed's high enough to soak up those extra points) boosts her OCV and DCV to 21, and costs 60. We'll use the other 17 to buy a 10/10 force field at 1/2 END to keep her defenses comparable.

 

How about another 55 STR (to 120), another 11 ED and 11 points to make her increased PD and ED resistant. That's 77 points too.

 

Sure, we're violating campaign max'es here, but she already violates most commentator's campaign max ofd abilities at campaign max!

 

Hmmm...how about 3d6 SPD Drain, Personal Immunity, Area Effect Radius extended once (so 8" radius). That soaks every character in range for about 1 SPD per use. After a turn or so of that, we should have no trouble mopping up any group of opponents.

 

The bottom line is that any system is open to abuse if the player chooses to do s and the GM permits it. Hero is not different in this regard. It's not the EC benefits that grant power to Lariat. The EC saves what, 45 points? Put 225 worth of powers and characteristics as "only in hero ID", or "not in intense magnetic fields" and that saves 45 points.

 

Sure, it will hurt when these come up. Drains and suppresses will hurt Lariat when they come up, and they likely won't have any lesser frequency.

 

You said so yourself:

 

Originally posted by Gary

Yeah, it requires heavy GM supervision to balance the roles. The rules as is, won't produce balanced characters even for non-abusive conceptions.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X

I am going to say something shocking. I just don't care about the typical martial artist in a Champions game. They are pointless. It makes sense that they need a magic sword, a good find weakness score, gizmo, or a utility belt to be competitive. There is a reason Richard Dragon Kung Fu fighter and Shang Chi MOKF didn't join the JLA or Avengers. I don't cut martial artists any slack. If you want to be a martial artist that's your business. I think it's best if you have a power construct that exploits the genre and gives you something besides martial maneuvers and a 20 strength to deal with "Megalor the Chaos Titan."

 

Weren't you the one who was arguing that you could build competitive characters of any archetype?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Well, v/5 = 5" per d6 = 1d6 per 10 points, plus these maneuvers typically have some OCV and/or DCV penalties. It can be abused, but so can straight EB's or hand attacks.

 

Or 5" per d6 for leap, swinging, or gliding, stuff that many super powered martial artists would buy up anyway. And the penalties aren't that severe, in some cases you get bonuses.

 

Charge 4 pts +0 OCV -2 DCV damage str +2d6 + v/5

Lariat would do 21d6 with this at OCV 12 and DCV 8

 

Flying Tackle 3 pts +0 OCV -1 DCV damage str + v/5

Lariat would do 19d6 with this at OCV 12 and DCV 9

 

Passing Strike 5 pts +1 OCV +0 DCV damage str + v/5

Lariat would do 19d6 with this at OCV 13 and DCV 10

 

Sacrifice Lunge 4 pts +2 OCV -2 DCV damage str + v/5

Lariat would do 19d6 with this at OCV 14 and DCV 8

 

If building a custom maneuver, these would be devastating for bricks:

 

All out attack 5 pts +1 OCV -2 DCV damage str +v/3 Fmove

 

All out grab 5 pts +2 OCV -2 DCV dmg +10 str grab 2 limbs

 

Just buy these 2 "maneuvers", and the brick is set.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The turtleneck and ski mask would remove the lack of full armour coverage. And it's the sledge type situation when heroes are really worried about protecting the soft targets in combat. They need noncombat abilities to deal with the Hinkley/Oswald situation.

 

A bomb/grenade? He has full 8/8 armor coverage now so you'll need a pretty powerful bomb. Gas isn't stopped by most super defenses (other than life support). And remember, the hero's big concern tends to be whether the president lives. 8/8 Armor would go a long way iun the typical scenario - often, you only need to buy a phase or two so a fast mover can evacuate him.

 

Availability of 8/8 armor to the general public, even if only the wealthy can access it, is a major campaign changer.

 

Yeah, but the turtleneck and ski mask has the real armor limitation, which means that a bomb or grenade can get him through the eyes. And it implies a phase available for the president to put it on, which for most presidents would be speed 2, or 3 at best. This implies that the attack has already occured. And some armor piercing bullets goes a long way in reducing the defenses. There's no way the heroes or SS could relax even with the availability of 8/8 armor. Plus, I believe that in a world with superpowers, tactics and strategy would have to adapt anyway.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

To restate your key phrase "built to exploit the system". This is a vulnerability of any point-based system, and min/max'ing isn't that tough in most other systems.

 

If we eliminate every ability which COULD be (ab)used to exploit the system, FREd would be much thinner!

 

Let's look at another option. Lariat spent 77 points on her EC. What else could we do with 77 points?

 

hmmm...another 30 DEX (her 6 speed's high enough to soak up those extra points) boosts her OCV and DCV to 21, and costs 60. We'll use the other 17 to buy a 10/10 force field at 1/2 END to keep her defenses comparable.

 

Also, there are problems with the speed drain. It zaps friendlies, and by using it, Lariat sacrifices the ability to use her strength that phase. If she wants it to be useful at range, it would drop to 2d6 which means that it wouldn't zap 1 pt spd per phase anymore.

 

How about another 55 STR (to 120), another 11 ED and 11 points to make her increased PD and ED resistant. That's 77 points too.

 

Sure, we're violating campaign max'es here, but she already violates most commentator's campaign max ofd abilities at campaign max!

 

Hmmm...how about 3d6 SPD Drain, Personal Immunity, Area Effect Radius extended once (so 8" radius). That soaks every character in range for about 1 SPD per use. After a turn or so of that, we should have no trouble mopping up any group of opponents.

 

The bottom line is that any system is open to abuse if the player chooses to do s and the GM permits it. Hero is not different in this regard. It's not the EC benefits that grant power to Lariat. The EC saves what, 45 points? Put 225 worth of powers and characteristics as "only in hero ID", or "not in intense magnetic fields" and that saves 45 points.

 

Sure, it will hurt when these come up. Drains and suppresses will hurt Lariat when they come up, and they likely won't have any lesser frequency.

 

You said so yourself:

 

Or I could put OIHID and save 90 total points. Or put both the oihid and intense magnetic fields and save roughly 125 pts. Ugh.

 

As for your theoretical constructs, there is one major problem. Lariat would have to take a taxi to reach combat! 6" running or 12" leap just won't hack it. And they involve tradeoffs by removing useful powers such as stretching, leap, missile deflection, and spatial awareness. ECs don't have nearly the same tradeoffs in their application.

 

Incidentally, 10/10 FF at 1/2 end is 25 pts, not 17.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Or 5" per d6 for leap, swinging, or gliding, stuff that many super powered martial artists would buy up anyway. And the penalties aren't that severe, in some cases you get bonuses.

 

Leaps, glides and swinging all are limited forms of movement which I would impose some restrictions on for "movement" attacks anyway. Leaps have height at their apex, so you either attack someone far enough away (or flying) or you need to loser your velocity. Gliding leaves you with that "close to the ground" issue, since gaining altitude is a problem. Swinging has an apex and a low point as well, but at different ends of the movement.

 

And, of course, "He aborts to Martial Throw" converts your damage bponus to his damage bonus. Hmmm...say a pure MA, 20 STR, +8 DC - that's 18 dice against Lariat, isn't it? And with MA Dex and levels, bet on him hitting.

 

Originally posted by Gary

If building a custom maneuver, these would be devastating for bricks:

 

custom maneuvers? Those would be for TRUE martial articts only, if I allowed them at all, in my campaign. first you master a style. Then you can think about improving on it.