Elemental Controls

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

As for your theoretical constructs, there is one major problem. Lariat would have to take a taxi to reach combat! 6" running or 12" leap just won't hack it.

 

Originally posted by Gary

And they involve tradeoffs by removing useful powers such as stretching, leap, missile deflection, and spatial awareness. ECs don't have nearly the same tradeoffs in their application.

 

Tradeoffs always exist. The SPD drain takes away one of their phases for every phase you spend. And it was you that said you'd rather have that one big attack rather than versatility anyway.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Incidentally, 10/10 FF at 1/2 end is 25 pts, not 17.

 

Yeah, I was thinking a focus initially. We can make it cost full END (no more EC to pay END on, after all.) and sell back 6 END (or ditch her martial throw, since we've established that doesn't have near the benefits you thought... )

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Leaps, glides and swinging all are limited forms of movement which I would impose some restrictions on for "movement" attacks anyway. Leaps have height at their apex, so you either attack someone far enough away (or flying) or you need to loser your velocity. Gliding leaves you with that "close to the ground" issue, since gaining altitude is a problem. Swinging has an apex and a low point as well, but at different ends of the movement.

 

Leap gets all its velocity at the start. It doesn't have to accelerate like most movements. Thus the leaper can hit someone close to the leap point as well as someone far away or flying. And someone like Lariat with 5" stretching can hit people in an amazing number of hexes along her leap path. Gliding would be awesome for a martial maneuver vs flyers. Swinging is essentially equal to flying in most comic book urban environments.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

And, of course, "He aborts to Martial Throw" converts your damage bponus to his damage bonus. Hmmm...say a pure MA, 20 STR, +8 DC - that's 18 dice against Lariat, isn't it? And with MA Dex and levels, bet on him hitting.

 

Except that you can't abort to a martial throw. You can hold your action and attempt it, but then it becomes a dex rolloff between Lariat and the MA and Lariat has a 30 dex, so it's a 50/50 even then. And of course this doesn't help the vast majority of targets without martial throw and or with martial throw and without a held action.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

custom maneuvers? Those would be for TRUE martial articts only, if I allowed them at all, in my campaign. first you master a style. Then you can think about improving on it.

 

This I would agree with. Let's give the poor MAs a few crumbs.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Tradeoffs always exist. The SPD drain takes away one of their phases for every phase you spend. And it was you that said you'd rather have that one big attack rather than versatility anyway.

 

One big attack is roughly equal to 5 smaller attacks. It is not a substitute for having movements, defenses, enhanced senses, and utility powers when you already have an excellent attack (60 str with martial arts). Trading 135 pts of defenses, movements, etc for a single 77 pt attack power is a poor tradeoff.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Yeah, I was thinking a focus initially. We can make it cost full END (no more EC to pay END on, after all.) and sell back 6 END (or ditch her martial throw, since we've established that doesn't have near the benefits you thought... )

 

I would never sell back that 3 pts. It was one of my best roleplay moments. An assassin ambushed Lariat in her secret ID on the 20th floor of an office building. Lariat didn't want to blow her ID, so she had to fight essentially as a normal. What she did was to martial throw the assassin out the window!

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by prestidigitator

This is a good point. I tend to think that Powers are pretty "superhuman," though, whereas boosted Skills and Per rolls are just "exceptional;" anyone could do it, just not nearly so well. Everyone is allowed Per rolls to avoid being surprised (subject to the GM, of course), so there is no reason to think Batman has to have Danger Sense, necessarily. I'm not saying it couldn't be that; I just don't think that's the way I'd buy it.

 

I would say Batman had Danger Sense if he were aware in a situation where there was clearly no way normal senses could warn of a problem (invisible attacker--to sight, hearing, and without olfactory Distinctive Features--perhaps). I can't really think that I've seen Batman react outstandingly in that kind of situation. Now Spiderman obviously has a supernatural ability (this could just be the Special Effects of his +10 Per, but somehow that just doesn't sit right). Although I can't think of specific instances, I am also pretty sure his power warns him about things normal people just wouldn't be able to notice, no matter how observent.

 

I wouldn't exactly call Batman a "normal person" in any sense of the term. He's effectively reached inhuman levels of skill and aptitude through extensive training and practice.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Jeff

As far as that goes, it's sounding like KS's, Deduction, INT, and PER roll bonuses - just in vast quantities. That's particularly fitting since you'd want those for Batman quite apart from anything to do with picking up danger.

Deduction, KS: Joker, various KS's and/or SC's - all things you can't model Bats without already. I can't see this as an example of Danger Sense at all, much less a good example that he's got to have it. (I'm not married to the notion he can't - I just think he's the world's best candidate for getting away without it on account of quite a bit else.)

A good example of Deduction at work, possibly with complementary rolls of Tactics and KS: Thugs.

Can't exactly tell you you're feeling wrong there, but I can say it's not a vibe I get. Deduction and KS: Superman (ya, he's got that too - he knows the man) would lead to an expectation; a PER roll would recognize the voice.

 

I can't see this as simply the result of information he's not in danger, either. "Not in danger" plus "someone's here" doesn't get you to "it's just Supes" - not without things like Deduction and PER rolls on the part of the character or canny inference on the part of the player. And, alas, we can't model Batman saying he must only be played by canny players although that'd probably be better than 1000 points in skills and talents to get him right.

Funny thing - in a heroic game, you could never afford the vast wealth of skills and PER roll bonuses that would account for his ability plausibly to get away without buying Danger Sense.

 

For Batman, I think Danger Sense is a bit of a cheat or a temptation to be controlled, since it may lead you to model the character without all the skills he should have and an awareness of their full application.

He's got the Really Popular Character Perk for that.

 

I think he's have all of it. As you say..he has to have Deduction, INT, KS galore and all that, all at high level. But there are something things that skills don't cover, and then a cheep Danger Sense is needed (I say "cheep" because it will cost, at most 30 points, far less then what he's spending in all of the bonuses and skill levels).

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Farkling

I don't remember the Champions Genre Book covering Stat Bloat. I'll have to find it and read it again. (Obviously I don't need it for much.)

 

Bats with an INT of 50 ?? He's got a 19- with every INT based skill right out of the box? Who needs superpowers...Bats can now pick a lock in under a second without breaking stride...and has a 25% chance to sneak in broad daylight? (an impossible task)...not in my book.

 

Since when were Lockpicking and Stealth Intellect Skills?

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Gary

As an example, I refer you to the brick and martial artist who pay the exact same number of points but the brick gets a lot more out of it. In practice most GM's enforce dex/spd limits on bricks, but otherwise there would be no game mechanic reason to play a martial artist. It's a lot more efficient to play a brick with base martial arts.

 

I disagree here. The pros and cons aren't all obvious, but then about balance out between Martial Artists and Bricks. The key difference is that Bricks are strong...and Martial Artists aren't, but do the same damage for less END cost. Bricks can lift and throw more, Martial Artists don't tire out as easily.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary

Weren't you the one who was arguing that you could build competitive characters of any archetype?

I was talking about frameworks, limitations, and the like. Remember?

 

There are limits any pure martial artist is going to have that point arrangements can't fix. A pure martial artist can't fly, read minds, fire blasts of energy. A pure martial artist can't see in the dark either. These are the problems I see with a pure martial artist. A pure martial artist isn't bulletproof. This has nothing to do with game rules. It has to do with what Richard Dragon and Shang Chi and characters like them can do.

 

A mystic martial artist or superhuman martial artist or martial artist with mighty hi-tech/magic stick is a different thing.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary

Leap gets all its velocity at the start. It doesn't have to accelerate like most movements. Thus the leaper can hit someone close to the leap point as well as someone far away or flying. And someone like Lariat with 5" stretching can hit people in an amazing number of hexes along her leap path. Gliding would be awesome for a martial maneuver vs flyers. Swinging is essentially equal to flying in most comic book urban environments.

 

 

 

Except that you can't abort to a martial throw. You can hold your action and attempt it, but then it becomes a dex rolloff between Lariat and the MA and Lariat has a 30 dex, so it's a 50/50 even then. And of course this doesn't help the vast majority of targets without martial throw and or with martial throw and without a held action.

 

 

 

 

This I would agree with. Let's give the poor MAs a few crumbs.

Perhaps there should be prerequisites from basic maneuvers to advanced maneuvers?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

I disagree here. The pros and cons aren't all obvious, but then about balance out between Martial Artists and Bricks. The key difference is that Bricks are strong...and Martial Artists aren't, but do the same damage for less END cost. Bricks can lift and throw more, Martial Artists don't tire out as easily.

 

Nope, not even close. Let's take an example:

 

Brick pays 60 pts for +50 str and 10 pts martial arts.

 

Martial Artist pays 60 pts for +10 str, +8 DC, +8 PD, and the same 10 pts of martial arts maneuvers.

 

For the same cost, both do the same base damage and have the same defenses and same maneuvers.

 

However, the brick gets +8 rec, +20 stun, +8" leap, X256 lifting capacity and thus free occasional area effects with objects, and +20 casual str vs weak entangles and grabs.

 

The MA's advantages are 2 end vs 6, and the option to buy flash, nnd, or KA martial maneuvers where his DC's are better compared to the brick's str.

 

Now the brick could sell back either 15 stun, or 8" leap and 7 stun and purchase 1/2 end on 60 str for 15 pts.

 

Now the comparison is +8 rec, +5 stun and +8" leap or +13 stun, X256 lift, and +20 casual str.

 

The MA now pays 2 end vs 3. The brick's +8 Rec more than compensates for this. And the rest of the brick's bennies is far greater than the option of buying flash, nnd, or KA martial maneuvers.

 

Without GM imposed limits, the brick is far superior.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Leap gets all its velocity at the start. It doesn't have to accelerate like most movements. Thus the leaper can hit someone close to the leap point as well as someone far away or flying. And someone like Lariat with 5" stretching can hit people in an amazing number of hexes along her leap path. Gliding would be awesome for a martial maneuver vs flyers. Swinging is essentially equal to flying in most comic book urban environments.

 

The reason you get 1 point per 1" is because the movement is more limited. If I'm one hex away, you need to (half) leap 16" to have full velocity. You can't leap 32" velocity and go 1". FREd actually contains very little discussion on leaping (The Ultimate Leaper, anyone?) or swinging, which is annoying, but requires a bit of judgement by player & GM.

 

Of course, that "roll to hit the hex" can get a bit annoying as well when one misses the Leap target. How bad the result is depends on the environment, of course. You'll need to be pretty off course to be unable to compensate with stretching.

 

But again, the "overpower" issue here becomes less the EC and more the specific powers and maneuvers. The point breaks for an EC don't make the combo possible, they just facilitate it a bit. Lose 45 for the EC, and it could be made up to still have the same "excessive" combat abilities.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Except that you can't abort to a martial throw. You can hold your action and attempt it, but then it becomes a dex rolloff between Lariat and the MA and Lariat has a 30 dex, so it's a 50/50 even then. And of course this doesn't help the vast majority of targets without martial throw and or with martial throw and without a held action.

 

You can rest assured that if I allowed a 32 DEF character a DEX 30, martial artists would be allowed significantly higher. And anyone who's seen Lariat in action would know the throw is the way to go. It's an obvious tactic against speed demons. [Abort to Throw dates back many editions, however - I suppose a custom maneuver could, but that puts the rarity at the extreme level...hmmm STR with Trigger? Let's not go there]

 

And the throw is commonly taken by martial artists. And if you can take a couple of maneuvers to best fit your character's other abilities, so can everyone else. A Brick with your STR and Martial Throw could do you some fairly significant injury. Again, a bit of a rarity, but any martial artist with decent Throw damage will do.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary

Nope, not even close. Let's take an example:

 

Brick pays 60 pts for +50 str and 10 pts martial arts.

 

Martial Artist pays 60 pts for +10 str, +8 DC, +8 PD, and the same 10 pts of martial arts maneuvers.

 

For the same cost, both do the same base damage and have the same defenses and same maneuvers.

 

However, the brick gets +8 rec, +20 stun, +8" leap, X256 lifting capacity and thus free occasional area effects with objects, and +20 casual str vs weak entangles and grabs.

 

The MA's advantages are 2 end vs 6, and the option to buy flash, nnd, or KA martial maneuvers where his DC's are better compared to the brick's str.

 

Now the brick could sell back either 15 stun, or 8" leap and 7 stun and purchase 1/2 end on 60 str for 15 pts.

 

Now the comparison is +8 rec, +5 stun and +8" leap or +13 stun, X256 lift, and +20 casual str.

 

The MA now pays 2 end vs 3. The brick's +8 Rec more than compensates for this. And the rest of the brick's bennies is far greater than the option of buying flash, nnd, or KA martial maneuvers.

 

Without GM imposed limits, the brick is far superior.

Hmmm, without GM imposed limits. How about without imposing genre conventions as well. If you are building a character with no context to it there are much more abusive things you can do than build a simple brick with martial arts.

 

Gary, what is it that you propose be done to the system?

[dugfromthearth]

I still like the nice simple

 

150pts into dex = dex 60

10pts into speed = spd 8

50pts into str = str 60

 

so you are OCV 20, DCV 20, 12d6 punch, spd 8

 

if you need to do more damage, target the head, you are still effectively OCV 12.

 

there is no end of ways to abuse and exploit the system.

 

that's why we have GM's.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

I still like the nice simple

 

150pts into dex = dex 60

10pts into speed = spd 8

50pts into str = str 60

 

so you are OCV 20, DCV 20, 12d6 punch, spd 8

 

if you need to do more damage, target the head, you are still effectively OCV 12.

 

there is no end of ways to abuse and exploit the system.

 

that's why we have GM's.

 

Well, I don't use hit locatioons in Supers, so that helps a bit.

 

Let's flesh this guy out. 210 points spent so far.

 

Let's buy +13 CON for 26

+15 PRE for 15

17 REC, 52 STUN, 46 END s/b OK

 

That makes 251 points. 99 left (and we haven't even discussed OIHID yet...)

 

+13 PD/+17 ED = 25 DEF each; and 15/15 resistant - that's 45

 

1 pt Regeneration for 8 (hey, someone MIGHT hit him!)

1/2 END STR for 15.

We can half leap 6" and hit every phase for 24 END a turn, so we last over a minute at full steam

 

31 points left for fine tuning. Let's consider:

 

- Radar sense, maybe; that's 17

- Scrap the PD/ED for a Multipower with a 45 pool, +30 PD Force Field 0 END and +30 ED Force Field 0 END, both multi slots - an extra 12 points, but now we can shift defenses at will

 

That leaves 2 points to boost Comeliness to 14.

 

No frameworks at all. No limitations at all. 350 points. Looks pretty effective. Who'd allow the character?

 

Excellent example, dug... Should we put it all IIF only in hero ID and get 70 points back to spend on some fluff powers? Maybe some Mental, Power and Flash Defense and Lack of Weakness?

[dugfromthearth]

every character should have:

 

flight - just so insanely cheap for being able to hover out of reach - or reach people who are hovering

 

mental defense/flash defense/power defense - even 5 points stops a lot of pesky nnd's

 

martial arts - buy ranged martial arts for your eb if you have one. hard to get cheaper then martial arts.

[Agent X]

Aaaah, so the perfect min-max character would be statted up with cheese limitations on an EC, an Attack Multipower, a Movement Multipower, and martial arts for both melee and ranged attacks! How EEEVILLL!

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The reason you get 1 point per 1" is because the movement is more limited. If I'm one hex away, you need to (half) leap 16" to have full velocity. You can't leap 32" velocity and go 1". FREd actually contains very little discussion on leaping (The Ultimate Leaper, anyone?) or swinging, which is annoying, but requires a bit of judgement by player & GM.

 

Of course, that "roll to hit the hex" can get a bit annoying as well when one misses the Leap target. How bad the result is depends on the environment, of course. You'll need to be pretty off course to be unable to compensate with stretching.

 

But again, the "overpower" issue here becomes less the EC and more the specific powers and maneuvers. The point breaks for an EC don't make the combo possible, they just facilitate it a bit. Lose 45 for the EC, and it could be made up to still have the same "excessive" combat abilities.

 

Those 45 pts saved simply allow me to have stuff like the emergency power and lots of noncombat skills/perks. The characteristics/EC combo is pretty efficient.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

You can rest assured that if I allowed a 32 DEF character a DEX 30, martial artists would be allowed significantly higher. And anyone who's seen Lariat in action would know the throw is the way to go. It's an obvious tactic against speed demons. [Abort to Throw dates back many editions, however - I suppose a custom maneuver could, but that puts the rarity at the extreme level...hmmm STR with Trigger? Let's not go there]

 

And the throw is commonly taken by martial artists. And if you can take a couple of maneuvers to best fit your character's other abilities, so can everyone else. A Brick with your STR and Martial Throw could do you some fairly significant injury. Again, a bit of a rarity, but any martial artist with decent Throw damage will do.

 

We're speaking hypothetically right? I mean you would never allow someone to have a 19d6 attack as a base attack right?

 

If that's the case, then consider. Even if the MA has a higher dex, there's still a decent chance he'll lose or tie and get smacked. And you're assuming that Lariat isn't being run intelligently. The v/5 maneuvers would be saved for after the enemy has taken an action, or against enemies such as EBs who don't have martial throw. Against MAs who hold actions, defensive strike or grab or large object would be the default attack.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X

Hmmm, without GM imposed limits. How about without imposing genre conventions as well. If you are building a character with no context to it there are much more abusive things you can do than build a simple brick with martial arts.

 

Gary, what is it that you propose be done to the system?

 

The obvious thing would be to increase the cost of characteristics, or to remove figured characteristics. This would be too radical of a suggestion to actually be adopted. And there would be unintended side effects as other things would have to have their costs changed as well.

 

In an ideal world, the system would be rewritten so that cost = value, but we have over 20 years of inertia to deal with. I'm afraid we'll be stuck with the overly efficient brick for the forseeable future.

 

In the meantime, an easy bandaid would be to remove ECs and replace them with a drain one drain all limitation.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Well, I don't use hit locatioons in Supers, so that helps a bit.

 

Let's flesh this guy out. 210 points spent so far.

 

Let's buy +13 CON for 26

+15 PRE for 15

17 REC, 52 STUN, 46 END s/b OK

 

That makes 251 points. 99 left (and we haven't even discussed OIHID yet...)

 

Yeah, it's best to compare with the same baseline. Every character could potentially take OIHID and save bundles of points.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

+13 PD/+17 ED = 25 DEF each; and 15/15 resistant - that's 45

 

1 pt Regeneration for 8 (hey, someone MIGHT hit him!)

1/2 END STR for 15.

We can half leap 6" and hit every phase for 24 END a turn, so we last over a minute at full steam

 

31 points left for fine tuning. Let's consider:

 

- Radar sense, maybe; that's 17

- Scrap the PD/ED for a Multipower with a 45 pool, +30 PD Force Field 0 END and +30 ED Force Field 0 END, both multi slots - an extra 12 points, but now we can shift defenses at will

 

It's actually 18 extra points for the multipower with multi slots. 45 for pool, and 9 per slot.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

That leaves 2 points to boost Comeliness to 14.

 

No frameworks at all. No limitations at all. 350 points. Looks pretty effective. Who'd allow the character?

 

Since you had to shell out 6 more points, I guess your comeliness drops to 2.

 

Aside from the dex 60 spd 8, it's a perfectly viable character with oodles of characteristics efficiencies. Since this character still needs some noncombat skills and movements (who wants to hitchhike into combat? ), it might be accepted if dex drops to 30 and spd to 6. That saves 80 pts which might be used for +10 con, +20" leap, 20 pts noncombat skills, and 20 misc points. Maybe buy your com back up?

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Excellent example, dug... Should we put it all IIF only in hero ID and get 70 points back to spend on some fluff powers? Maybe some Mental, Power and Flash Defense and Lack of Weakness?

 

Every character has this option if the GM approves it.

[Gary]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

every character should have:

 

flight - just so insanely cheap for being able to hover out of reach - or reach people who are hovering

 

mental defense/flash defense/power defense - even 5 points stops a lot of pesky nnd's

 

martial arts - buy ranged martial arts for your eb if you have one. hard to get cheaper then martial arts.

 

Many GMs will increase their villain's attacks to compensate if your characters start buying every exotic defense in the book. Assuming they even allow it. And start buying AVLDs rather than NNDs since unlike players, they aren't constrained by points. However, since 5th edition doesn't have minimum costs, why not just purchase 1 pt of every exotic defense?

 

Range martial arts would be good if you could only buy 1 maneuver. However since you have to buy 10 pts worth of maneuvers, I don't find range MA to be especially efficient. I'd rather spend those 10 pts on skill levels or extra dice.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary

The obvious thing would be to increase the cost of characteristics, or to remove figured characteristics. This would be too radical of a suggestion to actually be adopted. And there would be unintended side effects as other things would have to have their costs changed as well.

 

In an ideal world, the system would be rewritten so that cost = value, but we have over 20 years of inertia to deal with. I'm afraid we'll be stuck with the overly efficient brick for the forseeable future.

 

In the meantime, an easy bandaid would be to remove ECs and replace them with a drain one drain all limitation.

I like Elemental Controls and the Drain one/Drain all limitation as an option. Multipowers are much mightier than ECs, IMO, and you aren't suggesting doing anything to them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

It's actually 18 extra points for the multipower with multi slots. 45 for pool, and 9 per slot.

 

Since you had to shell out 6 more points, I guess your comeliness drops to 2.

 

Yup - we're min/maxing, so who needs COM? The accident which enhanced his stats must have disfigured him. Oh well, no one's perfect - and we get some distinctive features out of the mix.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Aside from the dex 60 spd 8, it's a perfectly viable character with oodles of characteristics efficiencies. Since this character still needs some noncombat skills and movements (who wants to hitchhike into combat? ), it might be accepted if dex drops to 30 and spd to 6. That saves 80 pts which might be used for +10 con, +20" leap, 20 pts noncombat skills, and 20 misc points. Maybe buy your com back up?

 

A 6" half move (leap) is, in my experience, quite adequate. If we find it's not working out, well, we can buy some more leaping with experience. I don't know about your games, but I seldom see combatants start enormous distances apart. Plus, Ugly John doesn't want to make your Throw efficient

 

You stick with your EC and martial maneuvers and we'll keep the 60 DEX and 8 SPD. We're not at campaign maximum movement - far from it - and Lariat's EC makes her so much more versatile, surely you wouldn't deny Ugly John his ONE advantage? After all, you're the one telling is how much extra power the EC and martial maneuvers give you - surely you can handle an opponent with neither of these advantages! All Ugly John has is a little tiny multipower.

 

[by the way, since it's Lariat, we'll put that Force Field all in Physical - that's a 42 PD.]

 

Tell you what - YOU buy the movement and Ugly John will pound on you when you move in. Hmmm...he's big and ugly - he can just reserve, and you'll probably think your 6 SPD 30 DEX beat him. When you move in, we can make opposed DEX rolls as he takes his reserved phase to grab those tendrils you lash out with. His is 21 or less, to your 15-. Of course, the Grab will drop him to only OCV 19, so maybe he'll miss. Your DCV will be what, 13? That's a 17- to hit for Ugly John.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Yup - we're min/maxing, so who needs COM? The accident which enhanced his stats must have disfigured him. Oh well, no one's perfect - and we get some distinctive features out of the mix.

 

 

 

A 6" half move (leap) is, in my experience, quite adequate. If we find it's not working out, well, we can buy some more leaping with experience. I don't know about your games, but I seldom see combatants start enormous distances apart. Plus, Ugly John doesn't want to make your Throw efficient

 

You stick with your EC and martial maneuvers and we'll keep the 60 DEX and 8 SPD. We're not at campaign maximum movement - far from it - and Lariat's EC makes her so much more versatile, surely you wouldn't deny Ugly John his ONE advantage? After all, you're the one telling is how much extra power the EC and martial maneuvers give you - surely you can handle an opponent with neither of these advantages! All Ugly John has is a little tiny multipower.

 

[by the way, since it's Lariat, we'll put that Force Field all in Physical - that's a 42 PD.]

 

Tell you what - YOU buy the movement and Ugly John will pound on you when you move in. Hmmm...he's big and ugly - he can just reserve, and you'll probably think your 6 SPD 30 DEX beat him. When you move in, we can make opposed DEX rolls as he takes his reserved phase to grab those tendrils you lash out with. His is 21 or less, to your 15-. Of course, the Grab will drop him to only OCV 19, so maybe he'll miss. Your DCV will be what, 13? That's a 17- to hit for Ugly John.

 

Hugh, do you realize how ridiculous you appear to be, comparing a pure combat monster with a character designed to be useful in noncombat as well as combat?

 

First of all, Ugly John will never catch my character. With 36" movement to 12" movement, at best it'll be a stalemate. Second, I can play the same game of min/max except with a EC as well. Here is Lariat after she undergoes the ritual of scarification and lobotomy and with essentially the same stat build.

 

60 Str 50

60 Dex 150

23 Con 26

10 Body 0

10 Int 0

10 Ego 0

15 Pre 5

2 Com -4

12 PD 0

5 ED 0

8 SPD 10

17 Rec 0

46 End 0

52 Stun 0

 

237 characteristics cost

 

5 Extra limbs (force tendrils)

 

15 EC force tendrils

15 24/0 force field 1/2 end

15 0/24 force field 1/2 end

11 5" stretching 1/2 end no noncombat stretching (-1/4) limited body parts (-1/4)

15 24" leap 1/2 end (36" total)

9 360 degree spatial awareness +1 to perception roll cost end (-1/2) range limited to stretching (-1/4) touch sense group

 

85 powers cost

 

Martial arts

4 Passing Strike 19d6

3 Martial Grab 70 str

3 Martial Throw 12d6 + v/5

10 5 levels with Passing Strike

8 4 levels with dex rolls

 

Guess what? Now I have the the same dex. I have an OCV of 26 with Passing Strike vs your DCV 20. I hit on a 17-. I have a 25- dex roll vs your 21- which means I win virtually all the time. An average hit by me will stun you for Con and end the fight, while an average hit by you will barely be noticed by me. And I have the movement, stretching, and martial arts that you don't. I could also have replace 5 of those levels and added +6d6 Hand Attack to the EC for essentially the same effect and replace the passing strike if v/5 maneuvers aren't allowed.

 

Are you going to continue with this combat monster nonsense comparison?

 

Incidentally, I've always found high movements to be useful. Your campaigns differ from mine in that respect.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Agent X

I like Elemental Controls and the Drain one/Drain all limitation as an option. Multipowers are much mightier than ECs, IMO, and you aren't suggesting doing anything to them.

 

OH NO, don't restart the MP vs EC comparisons. Run away run away.

 

FWIW, AgentX, as I've stated earlier in this thread, I agree with you, I think MPs (and for that matter VPPs) include a discount well beyond their utility (well in the case of VPP the 1/2 control cost I mean is less than you "should" pay for all that flexibility that is virtually unlimited by the book), and probably at least equal to if not greater than ECs. But there was quite a flurry throughout this regarding that point and I don't think anyone has anything new to say, at least that's my guess. However, I was wrong going into this thread as it blossomed into some nice directions re EC - for me, the NND-bar = EC-bar was a revelation, and something I'd not seen written in any other posts let alone in the rulebooks.

 

Aside - for the record, I'm just going to say I don't think STR is broken for super-heroic campaigns, although I can concede it may well be in heroic ones. I can see where STR might well be slightly undercosted, but doubling that is extreme. I can concede it would be a noble and possibly fruitful experiment to remove 1 or 2 derived characteristics from STR's influence (I'd pick PD and END personally, I can see the STUN part more than those, as I can definitely see a lower-PD/lower-END but high STR character as even a common occurrence).

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X

I like Elemental Controls and the Drain one/Drain all limitation as an option. Multipowers are much mightier than ECs, IMO, and you aren't suggesting doing anything to them.

 

I think the current costs of multis is in the right ballpark. The only possible suggestion for a multi would be to raise the cost. However, if you raise the cost of a ultra slot to 1/5 instead of 1/10, it's too much of an increase. The "right" price may or may not be 1/10, but at worst it's around 1/8 or so. And changing costs from 1/10 to 1/8 won't affect point costs too much and would be too much of a hassle. That's why I don't advocate changing multipowers.