Elemental Controls

[zornwil]

Gary, along these lines, do you believe in the following:

 

limitations for control costof VPP

 

-1/4 Slightly limited class of powers, "Only Magic, Only Attacks"

 

-1/2 Limited, "Only Adjustment Powers, Only Elemental Magic, etc.

 

-1 Very limited, "Only Drains, Only Necromancy"

 

Just curious - I would think according towhat I've read you'd say these are excessive discounts in all cases when applied to a VPP and should be more like -0, -1/4, and -1/2 - or even less - respectively.

 

Personally, I do think they're out of whack. Hadn't even really paid attention until recently as my players are moreso getting into VPPs (experience-heavy that they are).

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Gary

Nope, not even close. Let's take an example:

 

Brick pays 60 pts for +50 str and 10 pts martial arts.

 

Martial Artist pays 60 pts for +10 str, +8 DC, +8 PD, and the same 10 pts of martial arts maneuvers.

 

For the same cost, both do the same base damage and have the same defenses and same maneuvers.

 

However, the brick gets +8 rec, +20 stun, +8" leap, X256 lifting capacity and thus free occasional area effects with objects, and +20 casual str vs weak entangles and grabs.

 

The MA's advantages are 2 end vs 6, and the option to buy flash, nnd, or KA martial maneuvers where his DC's are better compared to the brick's str.

 

Now the brick could sell back either 15 stun, or 8" leap and 7 stun and purchase 1/2 end on 60 str for 15 pts.

 

Now the comparison is +8 rec, +5 stun and +8" leap or +13 stun, X256 lift, and +20 casual str.

 

The MA now pays 2 end vs 3. The brick's +8 Rec more than compensates for this. And the rest of the brick's bennies is far greater than the option of buying flash, nnd, or KA martial maneuvers.

 

Without GM imposed limits, the brick is far superior.

From that point of view, you are right. Things change when you buy more Powers and Characteristics though. And those NND Maneuvers can be just the thing you need against a brick. I thought differently once and built an Uberbrick with max defenses and STR and then used the extra points I "saved" and bought up SPD and DEX. He still gets creamed just as often as he wins in a one on one fight against any character with the same number of points spent in combat abilities.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Well, I don't use hit locatioons in Supers, so that helps a bit.

 

Let's flesh this guy out. 210 points spent so far.

 

Let's buy +13 CON for 26

+15 PRE for 15

17 REC, 52 STUN, 46 END s/b OK

 

That makes 251 points. 99 left (and we haven't even discussed OIHID yet...)

 

+13 PD/+17 ED = 25 DEF each; and 15/15 resistant - that's 45

 

1 pt Regeneration for 8 (hey, someone MIGHT hit him!)

1/2 END STR for 15.

We can half leap 6" and hit every phase for 24 END a turn, so we last over a minute at full steam

 

31 points left for fine tuning. Let's consider:

 

- Radar sense, maybe; that's 17

- Scrap the PD/ED for a Multipower with a 45 pool, +30 PD Force Field 0 END and +30 ED Force Field 0 END, both multi slots - an extra 12 points, but now we can shift defenses at will

 

That leaves 2 points to boost Comeliness to 14.

 

No frameworks at all. No limitations at all. 350 points. Looks pretty effective. Who'd allow the character?

 

Excellent example, dug... Should we put it all IIF only in hero ID and get 70 points back to spend on some fluff powers? Maybe some Mental, Power and Flash Defense and Lack of Weakness?

 

I'd allow it if those remaining 31 points were spend on skills, preferably of the background variety. I would also require some sort of explained concept and a character background. But that's just me.

 

Of course....I'd also make sure all my puny Viper Agents were armed with their trusty Flash Grenades and Nerve Gas...

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Gary

15 EC force tendrils

15 24/0 force field 1/2 end

15 0/24 force field 1/2 end

 

Disregarding everything else....is there anyone who actually allows this construct? I'll allow for Multipowers to give the character the ability to shift points between PD and ED....but all this goes is cut the cost in half.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Hugh, do you realize how ridiculous you appear to be, comparing a pure combat monster with a character designed to be useful in noncombat as well as combat?

 

Oh yes. I appear almost as ridiculous as someone who thinks EC's and STR are overpowered, but that multipowers and VPP's are just fine where they are, and who persists in positing a character whose EC doesn't fall within the rules as an example of how the rules for EC's should be changed. Does that help?

 

Originally posted by Gary

First of all, Ugly John will never catch my character. With 36" movement to 12" movement, at best it'll be a stalemate.

 

Ugly John doesn't care whether he catches Lariat. Now that she has run away, he can finish what he was doing (or has prevented what she was trying to do), so Ugly John has won. "Bye Bye Chicken Woman!"

 

Originally posted by Gary

Second, I can play the same game of min/max except with a EC as well. Here is Lariat after she undergoes the ritual of scarification and lobotomy and with essentially the same stat build.

 

OK, you're spending 10 END per phase (6 STR, 1 for each force field, leaping and stretching. You'll last a bit less than half a turn. Ugly John likely won't stay conscious that long, but he can keep going for a whole minute, so he has an edge in this respect.

 

Ugly John is also legal (outside of the obvious campaign maxima issue). He does not have a special power (spatial awareness; also missile deflect in the prior version) in a power framework. I may be mistaken, but I also don't believe an EC can have the same power in two different slots (Multi could be the same way, though, which would mean boosting each DEF to 34, and keeping 15 resistant, with the 18 points; or buy +6 DCV in HTH so you hit on an 11- instead, or boost STR, or what have you). He is not paying 2 points for 5 (or possibly 8) point skill levels with all DEX rolls.

 

HEY! Ugly John can start with a PRE attack and an extremely violent action (8d6 will be enough to top your 15 PRE fairly easily). Grab and Throw!

 

Continual fine tuning against one opponent is ultimately futile in any case. The key point here is that Ugly John is also perfectly legal (campaign maxima aside), uses no frameworks, and is still horribly abusive. You are focusing in on the EC, but it's not just EC's that can create problems.

 

Take away Lariat's EC (original Lariat), for example, and she needs to come up with 47 points. She could start by trashing 23 points of non-combat skills, but let's ignore those. Scrap the "emergency power" and we need 40 (most posters wouldn't allow the emergency power anyway, IIRC). Scrap Missile Deflection and rely on high DEX and DEF. That leaves 20 points. Save 15 by reducing Leaping to +12" (still a 12: half move, and no passing strikes so we don't really need it), and we need 5 more. Sell back 1 point of DEX (tut tut...a min.max opportunity missed, Gary!) for 2 points, and take 3 points from noncombat, MA levels, Acro, Breakfall, +1 PER roll on spatial awareness, 1 more REC point in some combination and we're done.

 

Still the same OCV, DCV, defenses and damage. A bit less movement and a small loss of versatility, but still a character I would consider overpowered due to the whole "campaign max on virtually everything" issue.

 

BTW - a Flash still pretty much cripples Lariat - the spatial awareness is not ranged, so she can't "see" who to leap at. "I'll stand 7" away from her and 2" away from the dumpster. When she leaps at me, I dive for cover. She'll hit the dumpster - she'll only perceive it after leaping - take some damage and hopefully be knocked off her feet, wrecking her DCV."

 

Originally posted by Gary

Incidentally, I've always found high movements to be useful. Your campaigns differ from mine in that respect.

 

"Useful" I don't deny. You have consistently implied that a 12" movement is so low as to be crippling, however, and I do not concur that a 30" movement rate is essential. Unless, of course, you plan to do a lot of running away

 

That being the case, Leaping isn't the best choice - "Clearing the building, you see the newly poured foundation at the bottom of your leap trajectory."

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

I'd allow it if those remaining 31 points were spend on skills, preferably of the background variety. I would also require some sort of explained concept and a character background. But that's just me.

 

No, it's not JUST you We're pretty much ignoring backgrounds and conceptions to demonstrate the concept, but how hard would it be to sketch out a "fast Brick" justification. nb: Concept comes before character design and is used by role players to design the character they want to play. justification occurs afterwards and is used by min/maxers to support the disparate abilities they believe will be most effective. Wjhen you see the character and concept at the same time, it can be very tough to distinguish the two.

 

Originally posted by Dust Raven

Of course....I'd also make sure all my puny Viper Agents were armed with their trusty Flash Grenades and Nerve Gas...

 

He can hold his breath for quite a while, and he can always Dive for Cover (he's got 5 SPD on them!). But I've always found Bricks get very frustrated fighting agents anyway. Bricks are generally geared to substantial one on one damage capacity, but they can only hit one agent at a time (two if they foolishly stand close together for a sweep), and if you hit one full power you need to wash your costume and fill out a lot of paperwork.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

Disregarding everything else....is there anyone who actually allows this construct? I'll allow for Multipowers to give the character the ability to shift points between PD and ED....but all this goes is cut the cost in half.

 

I don't think I'd allow it either (the two EC slots with 24/0 and 0/24 force field). Why not two slots, each with 12/12 force field?

 

Then again, what happens if it's hit with a 36d Drain vs All Force Fields. Let's see...that's 10 points off each force field, and each attack affects all other powers in the EC, so...take 40 points off each of your EC powers please.

 

Forget the flash grenades and nerve gas - make sure VIPER brings its experimental Force Field Suppressor.

[badger3k]

Back on track?

 

Ignoring most of the min/max attempts, here's a continuiation of my last post (don't run )!

 

Kinetik - champs universe.

 

Given that, according to Steve, an EC-character can't use, for example, two attack powers. It's in the questions forum, don't know how to link it, so I can't, sorry. Why does Kinetik have the following EC?

 

15 Speedster Tricks: Elemental Control, 30-point powers

 

15 1) Fast Work: Change Environment 8" radius, varying effect (+1/2)

12 2) Protective Aura: Force Field (8 PD/12 ED), Reduced End (0 END; +1/2)

Only when moving (-1/4)

15 3) Vibro-grip: HKA 1d6 (1d6+1 with STR), Reduced END (0 END; +1/2),

Penetrating (+1/2)

9 4) Supersonic Finger Snap: EB 3d6, NND (defense is Life Support (safe

environment: High Pressure) or armored head-covering; +1), No Range

(-1/2), Gestures (must hold hand near target's ear; -1/4)

10 5) Dizzying Spin: Drain DEX 3d6, requires a DEX roll (-1/2)

 

Since he can't do slots 3,4, and 5 in one phase (I'd argue 1 in that as well, but that can be debated), apparently the justification is that it can all be drained at once. OK, that can work, but is it efficient (i.e. does it save points?)

 

Hell no - the power as written costs 76 points. Make it a MP:

 

30 Speedster tricks MP: 30 point reserve

 

3 1u) Change environment

3 2u) Vibro grip

2 3u) Supersonic Finger Snap

2 4u) Dizzying Spin

 

Then, since the protective aura is on and he can use it even when attacking, make it a separate power:

 

24 Protective Aura, 8 PD/12 ED Force Field, Reduced END (0 +1/2), Only

when moving (-1/4)

 

The same power for 64 points. A savings of 12. Can't be right, can it? Or are ECs only cost effective in certain cercimstances?

 

Here's a question for the general readership - if you have something that stops a special effect - say a super-sauna that dispels or supresses ice powers, would it matter if a power is separate, in a mp or vpp or ec? This is only tangentially related to the drain-one-ec-drain-all (since drain is specific to a certain power/characteristic). I've used sfx supresses, but not a lot of drains (except characteristics), and am curious on that side-issue.

 

As a related point, what about using a power roll to modify a drain - such as drain eb (fire) becomes drain ff (fire)? Haven't tried it or looked it up - just occured to me when typing.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

From that point of view, you are right. Things change when you buy more Powers and Characteristics though. And those NND Maneuvers can be just the thing you need against a brick. I thought differently once and built an Uberbrick with max defenses and STR and then used the extra points I "saved" and bought up SPD and DEX. He still gets creamed just as often as he wins in a one on one fight against any character with the same number of points spent in combat abilities.

 

In a superheroic game, I've never found the NND ability of a martial artist to be terribly effective. Anyone with high enough defenses where a NND would be more effective than a Strike maneuver, probably has the defenses to the NND maneuver in the first place.

 

How would things change when more powers and characteristics are bought? The brick could simply mimic all of the MA's purchases and still have the inherent advantages of figured characteristics and lift.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

Disregarding everything else....is there anyone who actually allows this construct? I'll allow for Multipowers to give the character the ability to shift points between PD and ED....but all this goes is cut the cost in half.

 

Probably no one would allow it, but I've seen people allow 4th edition ECs with physical DR and energy DR separate, and with physical absorption and energy absorption separate.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Oh yes. I appear almost as ridiculous as someone who thinks EC's and STR are overpowered, but that multipowers and VPP's are just fine where they are, and who persists in positing a character whose EC doesn't fall within the rules as an example of how the rules for EC's should be changed. Does that help?

 

How is the EC not within the rules? At worst I replace the spatial awareness with targetting 360 degree touch for the same cost outside the EC. And no, it doesn't help.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Ugly John doesn't care whether he catches Lariat. Now that she has run away, he can finish what he was doing (or has prevented what she was trying to do), so Ugly John has won. "Bye Bye Chicken Woman!"

 

You're assuming Ugly John is the villain and Lariat is the hero. If Lariat is the villain, then while she's robbing the bank, Ugly John will take forever to reach. As soon as he reaches, Lariat

goes to the next bank. Ugly John can't do anything except make rude gestures. While Lariat takes everything worthwhile to steal in the city, Ugly John is just puffing along trying to catch up and can only protect one target. Sounds like a win for Lariat to me.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

OK, you're spending 10 END per phase (6 STR, 1 for each force field, leaping and stretching. You'll last a bit less than half a turn. Ugly John likely won't stay conscious that long, but he can keep going for a whole minute, so he has an edge in this respect.

 

Yeah, you lose in the first phase so endurance is irrelevant to this ridiculous comparison.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Ugly John is also legal (outside of the obvious campaign maxima issue). He does not have a special power (spatial awareness; also missile deflect in the prior version) in a power framework. I may be mistaken, but I also don't believe an EC can have the same power in two different slots (Multi could be the same way, though, which would mean boosting each DEF to 34, and keeping 15 resistant, with the 18 points; or buy +6 DCV in HTH so you hit on an 11- instead, or boost STR, or what have you). He is not paying 2 points for 5 (or possibly 8) point skill levels with all DEX rolls.

 

HEY! Ugly John can start with a PRE attack and an extremely violent action (8d6 will be enough to top your 15 PRE fairly easily). Grab and Throw!

 

Continual fine tuning against one opponent is ultimately futile in any case. The key point here is that Ugly John is also perfectly legal (campaign maxima aside), uses no frameworks, and is still horribly abusive. You are focusing in on the EC, but it's not just EC's that can create problems.

 

The key point is that I can mimic Ugly John's characteristics exactly and then use the 100 or so points spent on movements and defenses more efficiently with ECs than if buying powers straight or through a multipower.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Take away Lariat's EC (original Lariat), for example, and she needs to come up with 47 points. She could start by trashing 23 points of non-combat skills, but let's ignore those. Scrap the "emergency power" and we need 40 (most posters wouldn't allow the emergency power anyway, IIRC). Scrap Missile Deflection and rely on high DEX and DEF. That leaves 20 points. Save 15 by reducing Leaping to +12" (still a 12: half move, and no passing strikes so we don't really need it), and we need 5 more. Sell back 1 point of DEX (tut tut...a min.max opportunity missed, Gary!) for 2 points, and take 3 points from noncombat, MA levels, Acro, Breakfall, +1 PER roll on spatial awareness, 1 more REC point in some combination and we're done.

 

Still the same OCV, DCV, defenses and damage. A bit less movement and a small loss of versatility, but still a character I would consider overpowered due to the whole "campaign max on virtually everything" issue.

 

I don't know about you, but noncombat skills are fairly important to any world I've played. I almost never start a character with less than 20 pts of noncombat skills and perks.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

BTW - a Flash still pretty much cripples Lariat - the spatial awareness is not ranged, so she can't "see" who to leap at. "I'll stand 7" away from her and 2" away from the dumpster. When she leaps at me, I dive for cover. She'll hit the dumpster - she'll only perceive it after leaping - take some damage and hopefully be knocked off her feet, wrecking her DCV."

 

I built the character to actually play in someone's campaign, not for maximum combat efficiency. I added only powers that would fit conception. It didn't fit conception to have a spatial awareness power that had more than 5" range. And I have to leave openings for the GM, otherwise the GM will simply use his infinite points to screw me anyway.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

"Useful" I don't deny. You have consistently implied that a 12" movement is so low as to be crippling, however, and I do not concur that a 30" movement rate is essential. Unless, of course, you plan to do a lot of running away

 

That being the case, Leaping isn't the best choice - "Clearing the building, you see the newly poured foundation at the bottom of your leap trajectory."

 

How about actually reaching battle? Do you arbitrarily start all battles where someone with 12" movement always gets to the battle on segment 12? And with only 12" movement, virtually every villain will be able to escape if they want to. I happen to like the ability to pursue a retreating foe.

 

And even if I see newly poured concrete, I have my stretching to grab the side of the building anyway.

[Gary]

Re: Back on track?

 

Originally posted by badger3k

Or are ECs only cost effective in certain cercimstances?

 

Yeah, for stuff you want up all the time anyway such as movements, defenses, and certain utility powers. Or if you only have 1 or 2 attacks.

 

Originally posted by badger3k

Here's a question for the general readership - if you have something that stops a special effect - say a super-sauna that dispels or supresses ice powers, would it matter if a power is separate, in a mp or vpp or ec? This is only tangentially related to the drain-one-ec-drain-all (since drain is specific to a certain power/characteristic). I've used sfx supresses, but not a lot of drains (except characteristics), and am curious on that side-issue.

 

Nope, it wouldn't matter what framework it's in. If you buy the 1/4 advantage on your drain, it can zap anything with that special effect.

 

Originally posted by badger3k

As a related point, what about using a power roll to modify a drain - such as drain eb (fire) becomes drain ff (fire)? Haven't tried it or looked it up - just occured to me when typing.

 

I would say no. If you want to drain more than one power, then you have to buy the 1/4 advantage. That's what it's there for.

[badger3k]

Re: Re: Back on track?

 

Originally posted by Gary

Nope, it wouldn't matter what framework it's in. If you buy the 1/4 advantage on your drain, it can zap anything with that special effect.

 

I would say no. If you want to drain more than one power, then you have to buy the 1/4 advantage. That's what it's there for.

 

OK - two clarifications - I was looking more for the higher modifier type, for an all-out power stopper. Have people used the +1 to +2 modifier versions often, not at all, etc.

 

Second, on the powers roll deal, I was seeing if anybody used the one-shot type use given in FRED and explained in more depth in fantasy hero. With your answer I'd assume that'd be a no for you, Gary, but anybody else? I know its cross genre, but it fits with power stunts from other games (the questions related to the thread, somewhat, as I'm looking for ways to expand powers in limited ways with experience - you need to use a power in a power tricks/stunt before you can learn (i.e. purchase) the power. More relevant to MPs than ECs for the experience cost reason.

 

Thanks in advance. Thanks for the reply too.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Back on track?

 

Originally posted by badger3k

Ignoring most of the min/max attempts, here's a continuiation of my last post (don't run )!

 

Kinetik - champs universe.

 

Given that, according to Steve, an EC-character can't use, for example, two attack powers. It's in the questions forum, don't know how to link it, so I can't, sorry. Why does Kinetik have the following EC?

 

15 Speedster Tricks: Elemental Control, 30-point powers

 

15 1) Fast Work: Change Environment 8" radius, varying effect (+1/2)

12 2) Protective Aura: Force Field (8 PD/12 ED), Reduced End (0 END; +1/2)

Only when moving (-1/4)

15 3) Vibro-grip: HKA 1d6 (1d6+1 with STR), Reduced END (0 END; +1/2),

Penetrating (+1/2)

9 4) Supersonic Finger Snap: EB 3d6, NND (defense is Life Support (safe

environment: High Pressure) or armored head-covering; +1), No Range

(-1/2), Gestures (must hold hand near target's ear; -1/4)

10 5) Dizzying Spin: Drain DEX 3d6, requires a DEX roll (-1/2)

 

Since he can't do slots 3,4, and 5 in one phase (I'd argue 1 in that as well, but that can be debated), apparently the justification is that it can all be drained at once. OK, that can work, but is it efficient (i.e. does it save points?)

 

 

Why couldn't you? I see no reason for it. All are hand to hand and require the same type of attack roll.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Gary

In a superheroic game, I've never found the NND ability of a martial artist to be terribly effective. Anyone with high enough defenses where a NND would be more effective than a Strike maneuver, probably has the defenses to the NND maneuver in the first place.

 

How would things change when more powers and characteristics are bought? The brick could simply mimic all of the MA's purchases and still have the inherent advantages of figured characteristics and lift.

 

I still disagree. We'd just have to trade games for a while, roll each other's dice for a mile or something. Then again...the only difference between a brick and a martial artist IMO is that one uses DCV and SPD for defenses and one uses PD/ED. Those balance out, more or less.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Gary

Probably no one would allow it, but I've seen people allow 4th edition ECs with physical DR and energy DR separate, and with physical absorption and energy absorption separate.

 

With DR and Absorption, it's a 50/50 toss up for me. It depends on the SFX and the concept. But then again, the book specifically makes you must buy Physical seperate from Energy in the first place. Actually have to buy it twice, once for each (if you want both). With FF to don't.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Gary

You're assuming Ugly John is the villain and Lariat is the hero. If Lariat is the villain, then while she's robbing the bank, Ugly John will take forever to reach. As soon as he reaches, Lariat goes to the next bank. Ugly John can't do anything except make rude gestures. While Lariat takes everything worthwhile to steal in the city, Ugly John is just puffing along trying to catch up and can only protect one target. Sounds like a win for Lariat to me.

 

You guys keep this up and all you'll end up proving is that "evil always wins, because good is stupid." (Dark Helmet - Spaceballs)

[Farkling]

Why couldn't you? I see no reason for it. All are hand to hand and require the same type of attack roll.

 

Sez right here on page 204, top right column -

 

Elemental Controls cannot perform MPA attacks without GM permission.

 

Now, if it were all bought in ONE slot...that's a different story.

But EC's would be waaaaay too efficient if you could launch all your attack powers simultaneously.

 

Edit::

Come to think of it..I don't think you could stack the finger snap because of the gestures...no wait...that's if they have mutually exclusive limitations... I think...

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Re: Re: Back on track?

 

Originally posted by badger3k

Second, on the powers roll deal, I was seeing if anybody used the one-shot type use given in FRED and explained in more depth in fantasy hero. With your answer I'd assume that'd be a no for you, Gary, but anybody else? I know its cross genre, but it fits with power stunts from other games (the questions related to the thread, somewhat, as I'm looking for ways to expand powers in limited ways with experience - you need to use a power in a power tricks/stunt before you can learn (i.e. purchase) the power. More relevant to MPs than ECs for the experience cost reason.

 

USPD discusses using the power skill to manifest powers the character doesn't have. Manifestation of a variant on a power he already has seems an equally valid use of the skill. Note that the use of the power using Power Skill is expected to be extremely rare (one or two times; more frequent should buy the power) and much more difficult than if the points had been paid for the poiwer (eg. imposing Concentrate, Extra Time and similar limitations).

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

How is the EC not within the rules? At worst I replace the spatial awareness with targetting 360 degree touch for the same cost outside the EC. And no, it doesn't help.

 

Your missile deflection is also a special power, if I recall a post from about the third page correctly. I could certainly be wrong about that.

 

It also seems to violate the guideline about "one attack, one defense, one movement and a miscellaneous power", but I rarely if ever see that guideline seriously enforced. Still, you might start by applying the rules as written, including all "GM Permission" and GM Guideline comments, before deciding the rules are inrodinately generous to the construct.

 

Originally posted by Gary

You're assuming Ugly John is the villain and Lariat is the hero. If Lariat is the villain, then while she's robbing the bank, Ugly John will take forever to reach. As soon as he reaches, Lariat goes to the next bank. Ugly John can't do anything except make rude gestures. While Lariat takes everything worthwhile to steal in the city, Ugly John is just puffing along trying to catch up and can only protect one target. Sounds like a win for Lariat to me.

 

If Lariat lives in Cincinatti Ohio and Ugky John lives a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, Lariat can't stop Ugly John either. Perhaps Ugly John has to lay a trap, using naught but his native intelligence (10 isn't too bad) and creativity. That's kind of a stape of the genre when one character's powers are not suited to deal with those of an opponent.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Yeah, you lose in the first phase so endurance is irrelevant to this ridiculous comparison.

 

I suppose if "New Lariat's" sole purpose in life is to beat Ugly John, she'll never run out of END. Perhaps she may someday broaden her horizons, however. I don't know about your campaigns, but combats in excess of a turn are fairly common in mine (a minute, however, is pretty rare).

 

My comment was

Originally posted by ME!

Take away Lariat's EC (original Lariat), for example, and she needs to come up with 47 points. She could start by trashing 23 points of non-combat skills, but let's ignore those. Scrap the "emergency power" and we need 40 (most posters wouldn't allow the emergency power anyway, IIRC). Scrap Missile Deflection and rely on high DEX and DEF. That leaves 20 points. Save 15 by reducing Leaping to +12" (still a 12: half move, and no passing strikes so we don't really need it), and we need 5 more. Sell back 1 point of DEX (tut tut...a min.max opportunity missed, Gary!) for 2 points, and take 3 points from noncombat, MA levels, Acro, Breakfall, +1 PER roll on spatial awareness, 1 more REC point in some combination and we're done.

 

Still the same OCV, DCV, defenses and damage. A bit less movement and a small loss of versatility, but still a character I would consider overpowered due to the whole "campaign max on virtually everything" issue.

 

You replied:

 

Originally posted by Gary

I don't know about you, but noncombat skills are fairly important to any world I've played. I almost never start a character with less than 20 pts of noncombat skills and perks.

 

HUH? I treated your noncombat skills as sacred cows for purposes of the analysis. With the noncombat skills, and without the EC, Lariat is still potentially unbalanced based on most comments replying to your "would you allow this character" question.

 

Originally posted by Gary

I built the character to actually play in someone's campaign, not for maximum combat efficiency. I added only powers that would fit conception. It didn't fit conception to have a spatial awareness power that had more than 5" range. And I have to leave openings for the GM, otherwise the GM will simply use his infinite points to screw me anyway.

 

So, to summarize, your points include:

 

- EC provides too many point breaks, so it's unfair.

- If point breaks are overused, the GM will use his infinite points to screw me over anyway.

 

Thank you for your cogent and internally consistent logic That's a bit overstated, but the same "GM will screw me over anyway" logic is a pretty coherent argument that it doesn't matter how balanced the players are, one to another, since the GM can simply manipulate things to the advantage of the lower powered character against the over powered character. And, of course, manipulate the campaign to demolish the higher powered character anyway. Hey, just give every villain a Stretching Drain, ranged, 1 hex area accurate, and bonus xp to cover it, and Lariat is the weakest character in the campaign.

 

Gary, you seem to alternate between defending how powerful Lariat is and defending what a reasonable character she is. Which is it:

 

(a) Lariat is overpowered due to taking advantage of excessive point breaks from EC's and over-efficiency of characteristics. She should never have been permitted in a campaign as written.

 

( Lariat is a reasonable character who worked competitively, but was not over powered, in the campaign. The point breaks she received did not provide her with a huge advantage over the other players' characters.

 

© All the players made identical characters so there was no problem.

 

Originally posted by Gary

How about actually reaching battle? Do you arbitrarily start all battles where someone with 12" movement always gets to the battle on segment 12? And with only 12" movement, virtually every villain will be able to escape if they want to. I happen to like the ability to pursue a retreating foe.

 

I don't arbitrarily do anything in respect of all battles. Some are indoors (where big leaps are bout as useful as a bicycle to a fish). Some start a considerable distance apart, where big movement would be useful to either combatant (and guys with low movement have to be creative dealing with ranged combatants). In general, however, a guy with 12" movement can do something. Not everyone in the opposition will have 30+" of movement either, and this little thing I like to call "teamwork" means it's not imperative that every character be maxed out in every area.

 

Gary, above you talk about only taking powers appropriate to the conception. When we discuss movement, however, you dig in your heels that every character needs 30+ inches of movement. Does that fit the conception of all characters, or do you just make sure any conception you play justifies high movement?

 

Is Lariat automatically beaten by any villain with 45" of movement? Seems to me 30" flight (or less, or some running, or pretty much anything that can turn) could do the trick.

 

"JetPackMan, what do you do?" "Fly 10" ahread, then duck behind the building so Lariat can't see me (or leap straigh6t to me). Here's a note on my remaining 20" of movement since Lariat can't see what I do after that."

 

Originally posted by Gary

And even if I see newly poured concrete, I have my stretching to grab the side of the building anyway.

 

Perfect! Except you can't slow your leaping velocity, so please make an STR roll to hang on. Your 32" of movement equates to about a 50 STR (velocity/3, like a move through) to oppose. OK, your 60 STR allows you to grab hold of the building (most times anyway). Now, let's see if the outcropping you grab holds up against the strain of halting your momentum. I'd call that a move through with velocity only (you aren't using STR to crush the building, after all).

 

By the way, Grab is a combat maneuver, so you'll also need to roll to hit and have enough time between seeing the cement and falling into it to make the Grab. I'd probably let you away with a DEX check, though. Probably with some modifiers to how successful your PER roll related to the foundation was.

 

And you're assuming a building in range, although your stetrching does make that pretty likely. Maybe streetching and leaping are too powerful for their points. Maybe we need to apply advantages to certain powers and skills used in tandem with other powers and skills. Who wants to write up that matrix? [if anyone from Hero is following this thread PLEASE DON'T EVEN THINK IT!]

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Your missile deflection is also a special power, if I recall a post from about the third page correctly. I could certainly be wrong about that.

 

You're wrong. Missile deflection is a standard/defensive power.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

It also seems to violate the guideline about "one attack, one defense, one movement and a miscellaneous power", but I rarely if ever see that guideline seriously enforced. Still, you might start by applying the rules as written, including all "GM Permission" and GM Guideline comments, before deciding the rules are inrodinately generous to the construct.

 

Hmm, Let's see. Force field standard/defensive, stretching standard/body, missile deflection standard/defensive, leap movement, targetting 360 degree touch outside EC. Sounds right to me. And considering that Icicle, their sample EC character on page 205 has force field and force wall in the same EC, I think it's you who's way off in describing this EC as "inordinately generous".

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

If Lariat lives in Cincinatti Ohio and Ugky John lives a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, Lariat can't stop Ugly John either. Perhaps Ugly John has to lay a trap, using naught but his native intelligence (10 isn't too bad) and creativity. That's kind of a stape of the genre when one character's powers are not suited to deal with those of an opponent.

 

It'd better be a one shot knockout assuming that Ugly John is even able to lay the trap. Lariat's half move is greater than John's full move and she'll get away in one phase. By spending all his points in combat stuff, John has turned into the King Tiger tank of Supers. A big, slow, highly armored tank that was great once it reached combat, but took so long to reach and was so unreliable that it's usefulness diminished drastically.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I suppose if "New Lariat's" sole purpose in life is to beat Ugly John, she'll never run out of END. Perhaps she may someday broaden her horizons, however. I don't know about your campaigns, but combats in excess of a turn are fairly common in mine (a minute, however, is pretty rare).

 

With a 8 spd and 17 rec and post 12, taking an additional rec here or there isn't too bad. After all, it'll only take 2 phases to wipe out Ugly John into GM option land.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

My comment was

 

You replied:

 

 

 

HUH? I treated your noncombat skills as sacred cows for purposes of the analysis. With the noncombat skills, and without the EC, Lariat is still potentially unbalanced based on most comments replying to your "would you allow this character" question.

 

Yeah, but isn't it better to have the same basic character plus missile deflection plus additional leap plus not having to sacrifice anything else?

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

So, to summarize, your points include:

 

- EC provides too many point breaks, so it's unfair.

- If point breaks are overused, the GM will use his infinite points to screw me over anyway.

 

Thank you for your cogent and internally consistent logic That's a bit overstated, but the same "GM will screw me over anyway" logic is a pretty coherent argument that it doesn't matter how balanced the players are, one to another, since the GM can simply manipulate things to the advantage of the lower powered character against the over powered character. And, of course, manipulate the campaign to demolish the higher powered character anyway. Hey, just give every villain a Stretching Drain, ranged, 1 hex area accurate, and bonus xp to cover it, and Lariat is the weakest character in the campaign.

 

Gary, you seem to alternate between defending how powerful Lariat is and defending what a reasonable character she is. Which is it:

 

(a) Lariat is overpowered due to taking advantage of excessive point breaks from EC's and over-efficiency of characteristics. She should never have been permitted in a campaign as written.

 

( Lariat is a reasonable character who worked competitively, but was not over powered, in the campaign. The point breaks she received did not provide her with a huge advantage over the other players' characters.

 

© All the players made identical characters so there was no problem.

 

a) Lariat is overpowered. And she wasn't allowed into the campaign as written. She dropped her dex/spd to 23/5 among other things.

 

Lariat as written would have been overpowered. However, the GM asked me to tone her down.

 

c) Yeah, other players made efficient characters as well. Lots of EC/multipower combos or powered armor or other efficiencies.

 

You seem to feel that underpricing of stats and powers isn't a bad thing as long as everybody has access to the same point breaks. Then would you support Cosmic VPPs where the control cost was 0? After all, nobody would have an advantage since everybody has access to cheap Cosmic VPPs.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I don't arbitrarily do anything in respect of all battles. Some are indoors (where big leaps are bout as useful as a bicycle to a fish). Some start a considerable distance apart, where big movement would be useful to either combatant (and guys with low movement have to be creative dealing with ranged combatants). In general, however, a guy with 12" movement can do something. Not everyone in the opposition will have 30+" of movement either, and this little thing I like to call "teamwork" means it's not imperative that every character be maxed out in every area.

 

I find that people with 12" movement and no range attacks to be of marginal usefulness.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Gary, above you talk about only taking powers appropriate to the conception. When we discuss movement, however, you dig in your heels that every character needs 30+ inches of movement. Does that fit the conception of all characters, or do you just make sure any conception you play justifies high movement?

 

Is Lariat automatically beaten by any villain with 45" of movement? Seems to me 30" flight (or less, or some running, or pretty much anything that can turn) could do the trick.

 

"JetPackMan, what do you do?" "Fly 10" ahread, then duck behind the building so Lariat can't see me (or leap straigh6t to me). Here's a note on my remaining 20" of movement since Lariat can't see what I do after that."

 

In every campaign I've ever been in, and in comparison to the published characters, 12" movement is far to the left of the bell curve and 36" movement is far to the right of the bell curve in terms of movements bought for supers. At 12" leap, virtually every villain could get away if they wanted to. Just spend 1 phase running away, and then snipe away at their leisure against Slow John as he lamely tries to pursue. Or start the combat far away and snipe at him and then go backwards if he gets close.

 

Whereas almost nobody has enough combat movement to get away from Lariat. Even the flier with 30" flight will be caught if he tries to flee horizontally, and will give Lariat one chance to grab or strike him if he flees vertically.

 

Don't forget Lariat's 5" targetting touch if Lariat half moves after the guy who half moves 10" flight behind the building. Incidentally, Slow John can't do squat vs a guy with a 10" flight half move.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Perfect! Except you can't slow your leaping velocity, so please make an STR roll to hang on. Your 32" of movement equates to about a 50 STR (velocity/3, like a move through) to oppose. OK, your 60 STR allows you to grab hold of the building (most times anyway). Now, let's see if the outcropping you grab holds up against the strain of halting your momentum. I'd call that a move through with velocity only (you aren't using STR to crush the building, after all).

 

I could simply use my 5" stretching to "land" where I don't touch the concrete. Unless the concrete pit is 10 meter radius and I'm in the exact center, there is no problem for me. Not to mention, with stretching tendrils I can decrease the force exerted against the building since I can use the full second to decelerate rather than an instant. The "rubber band" effect.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

By the way, Grab is a combat maneuver, so you'll also need to roll to hit and have enough time between seeing the cement and falling into it to make the Grab. I'd probably let you away with a DEX check, though. Probably with some modifiers to how successful your PER roll related to the foundation was.

 

And you're assuming a building in range, although your stetrching does make that pretty likely. Maybe streetching and leaping are too powerful for their points. Maybe we need to apply advantages to certain powers and skills used in tandem with other powers and skills. Who wants to write up that matrix? [if anyone from Hero is following this thread PLEASE DON'T EVEN THINK IT!]

 

Against a DCV 0 or negative target like a building, grabbing is trivial. Stretching and leap together are highly effective, but so are numerous other combinations.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

I still disagree. We'd just have to trade games for a while, roll each other's dice for a mile or something. Then again...the only difference between a brick and a martial artist IMO is that one uses DCV and SPD for defenses and one uses PD/ED. Those balance out, more or less.

 

That's only if the GM enforces dex/spd limits on bricks. If they don't, there's no good reason that a brick won't have the exact same dex/spd as the MA as well as higher figured stats.

[zornwil]

Well, hey, I decided to fiddle with ECs in my current campaign, here's what I just announced to players on that, along with what I announced on VPPs:

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Elemental Controls:

 

I have been exceedingly liberal (as I think the books, too, have been) with ECs, though in and of itself that doesn't bother me. What does bother me is there is a certain lack of definition to them in general. I don't mean the concepts, either, no, I mean the actual game mechanics of the linkage.

 

So during a long string of messages on the HERO board, an interesting notion arose: the bar for EC concepts is that they be like NNDs, so unified that they have a nullifer which is somewhat easily defeatable by someone with a little cleverness and access to Home Depot. I like that, at least from the standpoint of having a game mechanic that sets a bar and has real consequences (and ones better defined than the current "drain-one-drain-all", "0 END" arbitrariness). Now, the way I've done NNDs may be a tad stricter, so I'm going to restate the bar just a tad, but an important tad. For ECs, the ability to defeat them for a normal person or a small group thereof would require not merely keenness of mind and access to said Home Depot (or other commercial stores), but also there may be a very cumbersome or otherwise difficult execution. For example, Sandman (the Marvel villain) could be defeated (his powers crippled) by a massive volume of water (for sake of our argument, much much more than a fire hydrant puts out); a small group of normal people could do this, but it'd take some real scheming and advance planning to have it set upin the right place.

 

So please define what your ECs' countering "technology:" or circumstance might be and send to me.

 

Now, you may not want your EC to be so handicapped as that. Okay, there's an alternative. For 3/4 of the normal discount for each slot's savings (e.g., if the control cost is 40 and each slot normally saves 40, the slot instead saves 30), instead your EC's counter must be something that an agency or government or similar organization, without the aid of fantastic powers, could erect though with some (not major) difficult circumstances. Want to be even less vulnerable? For 1/2 of the normal discount for each slot, you can make it so that the counter could only be due to superheroes/mastermind sorts - though, I point out, not through building a Drain or some-such but by doing something without expending any extra points of their character (such as making an area cold when their blast already does that; they don't have to hit you with the blast, just make it super-cold super-fast, but in an unnaturally, faster-than-humans-can-achieve way).

 

Okay, there's your parameters. Good luck with rechecking and rationalizing your ECs. I'm looking forward to seeing it, it fleshes out the powers more, too. (And yes, I will handle the villains' ECs in the same fashion, which opens interesting opportunities for you guys).

 

That's not all...VPPs

 

VPPs require some weakening implicit factor like ECs. However, it need not be as damaging as ECs; instead, the "base" level is that as described above wherein agencies/organizations/governments would be able to devise a counter, however cumbersome. For a +1/4 advantage to the control cost of the VPP, you could shift this down to just being other supers/masterminds (bearing in mind that, as stated above, it doesn't have to just be them using their power points, it should be something they can devise as well). For a +1/4 limitation, you can take the EC level of "normals can counter" as above.

 

VPPs unrestricted by neither skill rolls nor time require some special attention - but the house rules/rules clarifications I'm making from this point still relate to ALL VPPs, they simply address areas where unrestricted VPPS could be more apparently abused. First and foremost, the effects of changing those powers over in a rapid period of time (during combat) MUST have an evolutionary basis as its rationale. In play, as you switch, you need to describe how the things are shifting. Maybe the creature you summoned now lets loose the Indirect Energy Blast you just swapped to. Maybe you used your Ice Blast to make your Ice Barrier. Please describe as we play. This switching will help limit/define SFX of the powers as we go. +1/4 or -1/4 sorts of limitations and advantages we can just gloss over, that's how strong the SFX may be. This will *NOT* work against you other than limiting flexibility; the point is NOT to make the powers any more vulnerable, rather it is merely to ensure the powers do not shift so radically that the SFX get out of control and can become abusive. This will have a direct impact though on NNDs and Invulnerabilities and the like.

 

Second, limitations that are applied to these unrestricted VPPs generally will count for HALF their value. The GM may on RARE occassion grant exceptions and allow full value limitations- if you think you have a really strong case, bring it up, but be prepared to just move along if the GM's reaction is "no". The reasoning here, of course, is that VPPs are innately easy to change and limitations rarely count as such. Note however this does NOT apply to limitations on the control cost itself. (Also, further e-mail "conversation" with a player clarified that whether the limitations from the control cost inherent at full value depends on whether it really restricts the powers, but in the cases he had, it did to my satisfaction).

 

Third, regarding defensive and offensive powers and ensuring balance, I'm not making any SPECIFIC rules about what you walk into combat with - so yes, you can make pretty extensive preparations for certain enemies but I won't let you abuse the VPP of course - not that I think any of you would anyway. However, during combat, if you switch an offense to a defense or vica-versa, the power it just became will have a Side Effect or Vulnerability at GM discretion. Nothing serious, just something along the lines of the NND/Elemental bar as discussed above. Well, it may be a little more serious according to the scope of points shifted. This aberration in the new power lasts for as many of the players' phases as the real points shifted divided by 10.

 

Fourth, regarding NNDs and Invulnerabilities and similar bought via VPPs, again I won't restrict explicitly. However, I would appreciate that each of these sorts of particularly SFX-strong powers have some weakness or side effect or such based on the base power of the VPP. Please give it some thought. Doesn't have to be real formal or defined too strictly, but enough so we share an understanding of the types of conditions that would cause issues.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I also updated my rules on Invulnerability and Supernatural Attack, powers unique to my house rules. But they aren't frameworks or otherwise relevant to this thread so left them off.

 

I'l let you know how it goes with the EC change down the road a ways...

[Farkling]

You're wrong. Missile deflection is a standard/defensive power.

 

Well what do you know...it IS !!

 

Hmmm....it still doesn't cost END though...so you can't put it in the standard Elemental Control you are hyping as an abusive power construct without GM permission.

 

Permission is denied. That would be abusing the power construct.

 

You can't compare the two. Generalities are fine, but the specifics involve too many apple oranges and bananas being compared to tofu ice cream.

 

1) An EC is more powerful than a straight purchase character. TRUE.

 

2) A Multipower (six slot, ultra attacks) is clearly superior to straight power guy...and marginally superior to EC guy. TRUE

 

3) A general Multipower is superior to EC guy. (felxibility, MPA) If played INTELLIGENTLY. For the brute force problems, EC guy will take it. TRUE.

 

4) EC guy is vulnerable to elemental restrictions from suppress and drain. I picture psychic/telekinetic/ or forces drains in particular for the lovely lariat. PLAUSIBLE

 

5) Lariat DOES fit the concept in my book. Those psychic force tendrils are a pretty coherent idea...and better thought out than "fire" "ice" "radiation" "weather" OPINION

 

6) I think they're fairly well balanced. In my experience, I feel much the way about Superheroes packing the six-ultra slot attack grouping that Gary feels about players using EC's.

 

 

C'mon, multiguy paid 96 (or 132) points for his 360 points worth of energy blasts. He paid 25% or 35% of actual cost, and can switch between them freely.

 

EC guy paid 210 points for a set of six-60 point powers (whether attacks or not is irrelevant, odds are multiguy has SOMETHING in there that defenses are useless against)

SO EC guy paid 58% of point cost, AND has a serious issue with adjustment powers. If Multiguy gets drained, he just switches to another slot (which operates at normal power until drained ALSO)...the book and FAQ imply that as far as adjutment power go, multipower slots don't exist unless active (ie, points allocated)...EC slots appear to ALWAYS exist.

 

Hmmm....that logic supports the concept of drain one drain all...perhaps it is not the linkage as much as the visibility of your target.

 

For the record, my EC's DO have the Home Depot effect that Zorn is trying out...I just picture those countermeasures as a Drain or Suppress in my mind. no need to add those extra limitations and bookwork. Bleaugh. I have enough things to keep track of.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Farkling

(snip)

 

For the record, my EC's DO have the Home Depot effect that Zorn is trying out...I just picture those countermeasures as a Drain or Suppress in my mind. no need to add those extra limitations and bookwork. Bleaugh. I have enough things to keep track of.

 

Well, I don't know if anyone will take up the extra lims and such, we'll see. Thanks for the note - any advice?

 

To clarify, after John Doe goes to the Home Depot, gets a huge magnet (or a whole bunch of small ones), hooks up a car battery, and builds his "Anti-Magnetism Machine" (AMM), where I'm going a step beyond and don't want to use the Drain/Suppress mechanics is that, like an NND, the dampening of the EC is immediate IF Doe did the job right. Of course if he's a little off or barely made or missed his INT roll by 1 (obviously likely for regulars), it might just be halving the power. Now, for those partial power-downs a Suppress or Drain is a better mechanical way to go, but I prefer to leave it fudgy, not wanting to model it differently each time.

 

However, I am by no means criticizing modeling Doe's AMM with a Suppress or other similar power, your path is fine. I'm just pointing out where we might be a bit divergent.