Elemental Controls

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Farkling

Sez right here on page 204, top right column -

 

Elemental Controls cannot perform MPA attacks without GM permission.

 

Now, if it were all bought in ONE slot...that's a different story.

But EC's would be waaaaay too efficient if you could launch all your attack powers simultaneously.

 

Edit::

Come to think of it..I don't think you could stack the finger snap because of the gestures...no wait...that's if they have mutually exclusive limitations... I think...

 

I see it. You're right.

 

Won't stop me from disagreing with it.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Gary

That's only if the GM enforces dex/spd limits on bricks. If they don't, there's no good reason that a brick won't have the exact same dex/spd as the MA as well as higher figured stats.

 

A brick with DEX and SPD as high as the martial artists becomes an apple flavored orange to me. It's not the method of offense, but the method of defense that makes bricks bricks, and martial artists martial artists. If you have a character with both high DCV and SPD, and high PD/ED, then it becomes a GM intervention issue and you become right because you want to be.

 

It's always been obvious that martial arts aren't as efficient in Supers games...even says so in the UMA. If I wanted to build a martial artist to compare with your brick, I'd do it with Powers and leave the martial arts for the characters with NCM. My point is that bricks are not more or less efficient than any other archtype. If all you want to do is ignore archtypes and buy stuff that's efficient go right ahead...just don't call what you end up with a brick.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Hmm, Let's see. Force field standard/defensive, stretching standard/body, missile deflection standard/defensive, leap movement, targetting 360 degree touch outside EC. Sounds right to me. And considering that Icicle, their sample EC character on page 205 has force field and force wall in the same EC, I think it's you who's way off in describing this EC as "inordinately generous".

 

Lariat is on page 15 for those, like myself, who keep referring back to her.

 

I believe that "inordinately generous" description included the Spatial Awareness power inside the EC. BTW, "Touch" is already 360 degrees (though not discriminatory, but neither is Spatial Awareness, oddly). I'd have to re-scan the character - since your Touch will only cover the items touched by your Extra Limbs, you might want to give it "Ranged" with some limits instead. And that's 13 points (Range 3 because it's limited; Targetting 10) plus another 10 if you want to make the Range 360 degrees (i'd probably give you that for 7 given the limited range, so 20 in total). May as well just buy Spatial Awareness for 22 points, though. 13 points won't be too hard to find, but it will take out some of your extra points. 7 of them come from that last ditch power anyway. You're underpaying anyway since "range limited to stretching" isn't really a limitation on a power with no range anyway. I would be inclined to make you oay +1/4 to get limited range (Touch Group or not).

 

hmmm...Missile Deflection is a Caution power. No real issue - just caught me off guard.

 

Originally posted by Gary

It'd better be a one shot knockout assuming that Ugly John is even able to lay the trap. Lariat's half move is greater than John's full move and she'll get away in one phase. By spending all his points in combat stuff, John has turned into the King Tiger tank of Supers. A big, slow, highly armored tank that was great once it reached combat, but took so long to reach and was so unreliable that it's usefulness diminished drastically.

 

Given he has lots of time to set it up, it may as well be a Drain Force Field. EC goes away; no more leaping and much reduced defenses. Let's put a reduced fade rate on it.

 

Originally posted by Gary

With a 8 spd and 17 rec and post 12, taking an additional rec here or there isn't too bad. After all, it'll only take 2 phases to wipe out Ugly John into GM option land.

 

You're at 0 DCV and all your EC powers go down when you take a recovery. That's an excellent opportunity to use a reserved phase, IMO.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Yeah, but isn't it better to have the same basic character plus missile deflection plus additional leap plus not having to sacrifice anything else?

 

The EC is providing an advantage, but it's not the advantage which is making her overpowered. I wouldn't allow the character even after trashing the EC.

 

Originally posted by Gary

a) Lariat is overpowered. And she wasn't allowed into the campaign as written. She dropped her dex/spd to 23/5 among other things.

 

So the EC (the only item whose mechanics you propose to change) was allowed, and therefore is not the key problem.

 

Originally posted by Gary

You seem to feel that underpricing of stats and powers isn't a bad thing as long as everybody has access to the same point breaks. Then would you support Cosmic VPPs where the control cost was 0? After all, nobody would have an advantage since everybody has access to cheap Cosmic VPPs.

 

Breaks available are more or less equivalent for a wide array of characters. Characteristics, EC's, multipowers, VPP's, etc. are pretty balanced in my experience in that I don't see any ignored entirely, nor used excessively. Making VPP's more effective is no more appropriate than making EC's more expensive.

 

Originally posted by Gary

I find that people with 12" movement and no range attacks to be of marginal usefulness.

 

Obviously, we differ in that.

 

Originally posted by Gary

In every campaign I've ever been in, and in comparison to the published characters, 12" movement is far to the left of the bell curve and 36" movement is far to the right of the bell curve in terms of movements bought for supers. At 12" leap, virtually every villain could get away if they wanted to. Just spend 1 phase running away, and then snipe away at their leisure against Slow John as he lamely tries to pursue. Or start the combat far away and snipe at him and then go backwards if he gets close.

 

Funny, I generally expect every character to be on the lower end of the curve in something (but I'm not a big fan of playing a bunch of exactly identical characters).

 

Originally posted by Gary

Whereas almost nobody has enough combat movement to get away from Lariat. Even the flier with 30" flight will be caught if he tries to flee horizontally, and will give Lariat one chance to grab or strike him if he flees vertically.

 

Assuming a completely flat environment. He could just move around an obstacle, something your leap does not permit.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Don't forget Lariat's 5" targetting touch if Lariat half moves after the guy who half moves 10" flight behind the building.

 

My example had a 45" flight speed IIRC. He can move another 22" behind the building and be well outside your touch range. But feel free to keep spending the END since your range only applies as long as you keep stretching.

 

Originally posted by Gary

I could simply use my 5" stretching to "land" where I don't touch the concrete. Unless the concrete pit is 10 meter radius and I'm in the exact center, there is no problem for me. Not to mention, with stretching tendrils I can decrease the force exerted against the building since I can use the full second to decelerate rather than an instant. The "rubber band" effect.

 

Your stretching is limited to specific body parts. The location of your "central mass" will be unchanged. But at least you can hold the edge and hopefully haul yourself out. And you were already fully stretched if you were using your "range limited to stretching" enhanced sense.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Gary

Against a DCV 0 or negative target like a building, grabbing is trivial. Stretching and leap together are highly effective, but so are numerous other combinations.

 

You'll hit. Do you have a half phase to make the attempt? Grab is an attack, remember? Now, I'd let you clutch at the building, but now we're talking characteristic rolls as you flail out, not "to hit" rolls.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

Hmmm....it still doesn't cost END though...so you can't put it in the standard Elemental Control you are hyping as an abusive power construct without GM permission.

 

Permission is denied. That would be abusing the power construct.

 

I think he took it "costs END". Now, in your campaign, he wouldn't get a point break for that, but that's another matter.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

You can't compare the two. Generalities are fine, but the specifics involve too many apple oranges and bananas being compared to tofu ice cream.

 

Sure we can. The comparisons just don't work because they can't consider all the possibilities.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

1) An EC is more powerful than a straight purchase character. TRUE.

 

Agree (except when Captain Suppress shows up!)

 

Originally posted by Farkling

2) A Multipower (six slot, ultra attacks) is clearly superior to straight power guy...and marginally superior to EC guy. TRUE

 

Depends on the situation, but MP Guy has a lot more versatility. Gary will disagree.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

3) A general Multipower is superior to EC guy. (felxibility, MPA) If played INTELLIGENTLY. For the brute force problems, EC guy will take it. TRUE.

 

Probably still depends. MP Guy will have a lot more flexibility and likely come out ahead in many/most situations. Gary will disagree.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

4) EC guy is vulnerable to elemental restrictions from suppress and drain. I picture psychic/telekinetic/ or forces drains in particular for the lovely lariat. PLAUSIBLE

 

Yup. Every advantage has a drawback.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

5) Lariat DOES fit the concept in my book. Those psychic force tendrils are a pretty coherent idea...and better thought out than "fire" "ice" "radiation" "weather" OPINION

 

FWIW, I prefer the EC character with a well thought out linkage as well. But you and I aren't arguing EC's are broken.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

6) I think they're fairly well balanced. In my experience, I feel much the way about Superheroes packing the six-ultra slot attack grouping that Gary feels about players using EC's.

 

Both work for different character concepts. The attacks multi has become rather a staple and could perhaps stand some shaking up. Does everyone have to be hugely versatile?

 

hmmm...Cosmic VPP, only attacks, costs 2.2x the pool cost. At 22 slots, it would be equal to the MP in cost. And it can take any drain, suppress, dispel or transfer (hey, why shouldn't I buff up at the same time?) I want! There's my answer to EC's getting out of hand. 60 x 2.2 = 132; 75 = 165 - I can still buy some movement and defenses.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

SO EC guy paid 58% of point cost, AND has a serious issue with adjustment powers. If Multiguy gets drained, he just switches to another slot (which operates at normal power until drained ALSO)...the book and FAQ imply that as far as adjutment power go, multipower slots don't exist unless active (ie, points allocated)...EC slots appear to ALWAYS exist.

 

Yup. Gary will disagree. The inability to use all the powers at the same time is well worth a -9 limitation for "cannot multiple power attack", in his mind.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

For the record, my EC's DO have the Home Depot effect that Zorn is trying out...I just picture those countermeasures as a Drain or Suppress in my mind. no need to add those extra limitations and bookwork. Bleaugh. I have enough things to keep track of.

 

Yep. If I want it to be a 20d6 Drain, that's what it is. If I want it to be 50d6, standard effect, that should clean out your EC quite nicely. I think the hard part in some cases is assessing what the effect is. How do you stop force or psychic powers with your Home Depot purchase?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

A brick with DEX and SPD as high as the martial artists becomes an apple flavored orange to me. It's not the method of offense, but the method of defense that makes bricks bricks, and martial artists martial artists. If you have a character with both high DCV and SPD, and high PD/ED, then it becomes a GM intervention issue and you become right because you want to be.

 

It's always been obvious that martial arts aren't as efficient in Supers games...even says so in the UMA. If I wanted to build a martial artist to compare with your brick, I'd do it with Powers and leave the martial arts for the characters with NCM. My point is that bricks are not more or less efficient than any other archtype. If all you want to do is ignore archtypes and buy stuff that's efficient go right ahead...just don't call what you end up with a brick.

 

Have you heard of Timberwolf?

 

Anyway, this whole exchange came about when I said that there was no game mechanic reason to ever play a MA over a brick. You disagreed and said that they were equal, but just in different ways. Are you changing your mind now?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Lariat is on page 15 for those, like myself, who keep referring back to her.

 

I believe that "inordinately generous" description included the Spatial Awareness power inside the EC. BTW, "Touch" is already 360 degrees (though not discriminatory, but neither is Spatial Awareness, oddly). I'd have to re-scan the character - since your Touch will only cover the items touched by your Extra Limbs, you might want to give it "Ranged" with some limits instead. And that's 13 points (Range 3 because it's limited; Targetting 10) plus another 10 if you want to make the Range 360 degrees (i'd probably give you that for 7 given the limited range, so 20 in total). May as well just buy Spatial Awareness for 22 points, though. 13 points won't be too hard to find, but it will take out some of your extra points. 7 of them come from that last ditch power anyway. You're underpaying anyway since "range limited to stretching" isn't really a limitation on a power with no range anyway. I would be inclined to make you oay +1/4 to get limited range (Touch Group or not).

 

hmmm...Missile Deflection is a Caution power. No real issue - just caught me off guard.

 

Fair enough, although I believe the cost would be 10 for targetting, 5 for 360 degrees, 5 for range (or 3 if you give a point break for 5" range). Final cost of 18-20. After costs end is applied, the cost is 12-13. I could also apply Linked to stretching for an additional -1/2, but that's questionable so I'll pass on it. I think I can come up with 3-4 additional points.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Given he has lots of time to set it up, it may as well be a Drain Force Field. EC goes away; no more leaping and much reduced defenses. Let's put a reduced fade rate on it.

 

If he can get access to Drain Force Field even though it isn't on his character sheet, I can come up with a corresponding drain as well. Perhaps an area effect drain leap and running. Reduce fade rate of course.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

You're at 0 DCV and all your EC powers go down when you take a recovery. That's an excellent opportunity to use a reserved phase, IMO.

 

I'm at 1/2 DCV, not 0. And you're right, with reserved phases and a 8 spd, it shouldn't be too hard.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The EC is providing an advantage, but it's not the advantage which is making her overpowered. I wouldn't allow the character even after trashing the EC.

 

That's with 350 to play with. Suppose the starting value is 300? All of a sudden, it becomes a real sacrifice to eliminate enough points. Whereas with the EC it might be painful, but it's very doable. In any event, "Lariat with EC" is much tougher than "Lariat without EC".

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

So the EC (the only item whose mechanics you propose to change) was allowed, and therefore is not the key problem.

 

Depends on whether you believe 47 pts saved isn't a "key" problem.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Breaks available are more or less equivalent for a wide array of characters. Characteristics, EC's, multipowers, VPP's, etc. are pretty balanced in my experience in that I don't see any ignored entirely, nor used excessively. Making VPP's more effective is no more appropriate than making EC's more expensive.

 

Why not? According to you, no one would have an advantage and thus a framework that saves everyone the same number of points should be A-OK. My experience happens to disagree with yours.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Obviously, we differ in that.

 

Do you actually have your villains slug it out with big slow bricks instead of using their speed and the battlefield to their advantage? Unless the villain is a big slow brick or MA himself, it makes no sense for any of them to melee it out with the slug. It makes much more sense to snipe and retreat a little when he gets close.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Funny, I generally expect every character to be on the lower end of the curve in something (but I'm not a big fan of playing a bunch of exactly identical characters).

 

Funny, I expect everyone, hero and villain, to use their assets to their maximum advantage. If the villains meet a big slow Slug, they will use their advantage in combat movement to their maximum capabilities.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Assuming a completely flat environment. He could just move around an obstacle, something your leap does not permit.

 

I could half leap over most obstacles. And even if I can't, I can leap to the side of the obstacle and attack from there instead. And of course Slug John is completely helpless against this dude anyway.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

My example had a 45" flight speed IIRC. He can move another 22" behind the building and be well outside your touch range. But feel free to keep spending the END since your range only applies as long as you keep stretching.

 

I think most people would be screwed facing someone with 45" combat flight. He spent anywhere from 90 to 135 pts on that power! Dr. Destroyer doesn't even have that much flight. Incidentally, if he only moves 22", I can leap 18" and my stretching will cover the other 4" easily. And of course Slug John can't do anything either.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Your stretching is limited to specific body parts. The location of your "central mass" will be unchanged. But at least you can hold the edge and hopefully haul yourself out. And you were already fully stretched if you were using your "range limited to stretching" enhanced sense.

 

I land on my extra limbs. I have dozens of them. It would be no different from dropping Reed Richards or Plastic Man over the pit. And I've seen them land his limbs over plenty of pits before. It's like a spider, where the legs spread around the center point.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

You'll hit. Do you have a half phase to make the attempt? Grab is an attack, remember? Now, I'd let you clutch at the building, but now we're talking characteristic rolls as you flail out, not "to hit" rolls.

 

Not too much of a difference. 15- dex roll vs 17- attack roll

[Gary]

Originally posted by Farkling

Well what do you know...it IS !!

 

Hmmm....it still doesn't cost END though...so you can't put it in the standard Elemental Control you are hyping as an abusive power construct without GM permission.

 

Permission is denied. That would be abusing the power construct.

 

I had it cost end in the writeup.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

You can't compare the two. Generalities are fine, but the specifics involve too many apple oranges and bananas being compared to tofu ice cream.

 

1) An EC is more powerful than a straight purchase character. TRUE.

 

Obviously, I agree.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

2) A Multipower (six slot, ultra attacks) is clearly superior to straight power guy...and marginally superior to EC guy. TRUE

 

This I'm not too sure about. 80 pts for a 6 slot 50 pt multipower. Or a single 16d6 attack. Or a 50 pt attack with +3 spd. Or a 50 pt attack with +10 dex +1 spd.

 

1) 6 slot multipower with 50 pt reserve. 23 dex 5 spd cost 136

2) 16d6 EB 23 dex 5 spd cost 136

3) 10d6 EB 23 dex 8 spd cost 136

4) 10d6 EB 33 dex 6 spd cost 136

 

Are any of these obviously superior to any of the rest?

 

Originally posted by Farkling

3) A general Multipower is superior to EC guy. (felxibility, MPA) If played INTELLIGENTLY. For the brute force problems, EC guy will take it. TRUE.

 

I disagree. If all you have is 60 pts to play with for a movement and a defense, I would go with the EC everytime. If you want a character with 5 movements and 3 defenses but at a much weaker level, that's a different story.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

4) EC guy is vulnerable to elemental restrictions from suppress and drain. I picture psychic/telekinetic/ or forces drains in particular for the lovely lariat. PLAUSIBLE

 

I'm not going to gripe if you did. That's your job as GM. I consider that part of the price I have to pay for saving oodles of points. However, Lariat is still pretty tough even without the EC.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

5) Lariat DOES fit the concept in my book. Those psychic force tendrils are a pretty coherent idea...and better thought out than "fire" "ice" "radiation" "weather" OPINION

 

Thank you very much. It's always hard exposing a beloved character to the public eye for criticism and to be picked apart.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

6) I think they're fairly well balanced. In my experience, I feel much the way about Superheroes packing the six-ultra slot attack grouping that Gary feels about players using EC's.

 

With campaign limits, that's very true. Often the GM won't allow you to spend those 30 extra points on dex/spd or a bigger attack or other efficient way. In that case, the multipower is better.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

C'mon, multiguy paid 96 (or 132) points for his 360 points worth of energy blasts. He paid 25% or 35% of actual cost, and can switch between them freely.

 

EC guy paid 210 points for a set of six-60 point powers (whether attacks or not is irrelevant, odds are multiguy has SOMETHING in there that defenses are useless against)

SO EC guy paid 58% of point cost, AND has a serious issue with adjustment powers. If Multiguy gets drained, he just switches to another slot (which operates at normal power until drained ALSO)...the book and FAQ imply that as far as adjutment power go, multipower slots don't exist unless active (ie, points allocated)...EC slots appear to ALWAYS exist.

 

Yeah, but EC guy has 300 pts active vs 60 for multi guy. The problem is that without 0 end powers, it's actually pretty hard to think of 6 end using powers that you want at 60 pts effect up all the time. However, if you're allowed the following EC:

 

30 EC

30 24" flight 1/2 end

30 20/20 armor

30 3/4 DR physical

30 3/4 DR energy

30 12d6 physical absorption

30 12d6 energy absorption

 

That's pretty tough for the multiguy to beat. And of course the EC guy in most worlds except for yours can buy a multipower to go along with the EC.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Hmmm....that logic supports the concept of drain one drain all...perhaps it is not the linkage as much as the visibility of your target.

 

For the record, my EC's DO have the Home Depot effect that Zorn is trying out...I just picture those countermeasures as a Drain or Suppress in my mind. no need to add those extra limitations and bookwork. Bleaugh. I have enough things to keep track of.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Yup. Gary will disagree. The inability to use all the powers at the same time is well worth a -9 limitation for "cannot multiple power attack", in his mind.

 

What limitation level do you think it's worth? How many points do you think a 60 pt 6 slot mult should cost?

 

-1/4 limitation per slot total cost is 348 pts.

-1/2 limitation per slot total cost is 300 pts.

-1 limitation per slot total cost is 240 pts.

-2 limitation per slot total cost is 180 pts.

-3 limitation per slot total cost is 150 pts.

-4 limitation per slot total cost is 132 pts.

-5 limitation per slot total cost is 120 pts.

-6 limitation per slot total cost is 114 pts. (111 if you ignore rounding)

-7 limitation per slot total cost is 102 pts. (105 if you ignore rounding)

-8 limitation per slot total cost is 102 pts. (100 if you ignore rounding)

-9 limitation per slot total cost is 96 pts.

 

I eagerly await your answer.

[Farkling]

Excuse me.

 

30 EC

30 24" flight 1/2 end

30 20/20 armor

30 3/4 DR physical

30 3/4 DR energy

30 12d6 physical absorption

30 12d6 energy absorption

 

Once again...I'd like to point out something...

 

DAMAGE REDUCTION CANNOT GO IN AN EC

(though it can in my world as restricted to elemental type)

 

It does not cost END.

 

Additionally;

ABSORBTION CANNOT GO IN AN EC

(though it can in my world as restricted to elemental type)

 

It does not cost END.

 

 

At the risk of sounding outre ... no wonder you think EC's are overpoweered.

 

Seriously...do you have any other comparison up your sleeve?

[Farkling]

Bad example Gary...but I belatedly notice the "if you were allowed"

 

A player in my universe WOULDN'T BE.

(hmmm...unless element resticted...he'd be well nigh invulnerable to his element, and could boost spectacularly in it...a possibility for an ELEMENTAL in the Supers game...that's a nice idea I think...)

[JmOz]

The only problem with EC's is when they are not looked at as part of the "Greater Whole". Think of a star, each point is a different type of framework, all are equal but none rule the roost (BTW, I am also counting Characteristics and Martial Arts as frameworks)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Farkling

Bad example Gary...but I belatedly notice the "if you were allowed"

 

A player in my universe WOULDN'T BE.

(hmmm...unless element resticted...he'd be well nigh invulnerable to his element, and could boost spectacularly in it...a possibility for an ELEMENTAL in the Supers game...that's a nice idea I think...)

 

Yeah, a 6 slot 60 pt EC was unrealistic for a starting character so I used another example. I think that sample EC shows the dangers of allowing 0 end powers in a EC.

 

You didn't answer my questions though. Do you find 6 slot ultra multipowers with 50 pt reserve to be overpowering compared to players spending the 30 pts of slots on dex/spd or bigger powers?

 

I think that people who believe multipowers to be overpowered have tight campaign maximums in their worlds. If everyone is allowed only 60 pt attack powers and they're already maxed out on their combat stuff, then of course a 60 pt multipower with 6 slots is going to be more powerful than a 60 pt straight attack. The person with a 60 pt straight attack isn't allowed to spend his 36 extra points on combat effective stuff in such a world.

[Farkling]

Well...my characters STARTED with strict campaing limits...

But they are lifted now...there are some "loose" campaign limits.

 

I can also officially state that after the mercenary went into the radioactive Russian sub, he has undergone a mutation...

And the only character without a framework is Cory, the brick...and she's still seen as the most overpowered...until combat starts. *snicker* Then they become aware that the raging engine of destruction can't hit worth beans. (Though she trades luck chips for rerolls with alarming success).

 

Heh...the best quote last night was::

Josh - "It's a HUGE tank!"

Mind Linked to Josh on the roof nearby

Wheels Mind Linked to Josh on the roof nearby

- "Cory...you can break that"

Cory shouted with much glee - "Cannonball!"

 

Though the the other one was::

"A radioactive Russian sub covered with heat/impact proof mutant coral, containing liquid plutonium in the forward compartments, and the reactor removed from the engine room. I'm having X-Files flashbacks"

 

SO...I have these now::

1 - Brick...revelling in her (relative) invulnerabillity

1 - MA/Brick - Cyborg. Multipower (Moves/Gadgets)

1 - MA/EP - Plasma Wielder (radiation jump started his powers) - Multipower Attacks (multis for MPA effecs)

1 - MP - Mentalist. Multipower all the way. Played intelligently with duck n dodge

1 - EC - Mutant Weather witch. Player is unintentionally following STORM form early X-Men...very strange to watch.

[Farkling]

Gary

 

I was objecting to your choices...not your six slot EC...the Weather Witch has a 7-slot...

(let's see if this works...)

 

Weather Manipulation (37); Limited by Ambient Weather: ¾ Effective, (-¼)

 

Weather Control: Change Environment (1" Radius); Weather: Broad Group, (+1x); Long Lasting (1 Hour): (+10); PER Roll Penalty (Sight): -2, (+6); PER Roll Penalty (Hearing): -2, (+6); Increase/Decrease Temperature: +3 Levels, (+9); AP: 81; Increased Endurance (×3): (-1x); Megascale (1 Km): (+¼x)

 

Arctic Typhoon: 5d6 Energy Blast; Range (0"); No Normal Defense: (+1x); Area Effect (Radius): 6" Radius, (+1x); Personal Immunity: (+¼x); AP: 81; No Range: (-½); Increased Endurance (×3): (-1)

 

Wind Burst: 6d6 Energy Blast; Range (375"); AP: 75; Double Knockback (×2): (+¾x); Invisible to Sight (Targeting Sense Group): (+½x)

 

Hurricane Wind: Telekinesis (50 STR); Range (375"); Manipulation: Coarse, +0; Affects Whole Object: (-¼x); Concentration (0 DCV): (-½x) AP: 75

 

Wind Riding: 25" Flight (50" Noncombat); Non Combat Multiplier: ×2, (+0); Non Combat (MPH): 74; Usable under water: (+¼x); Inaccurate: (-¼x); Costs Endurance (Only To Activate): (+¼x) AP: 75

 

Ball Lightning: 10d6 Energy Blast; Range (375"); STUN Only; Armor Piercing (1): (+½x); Not Vs. Insulated Targets: (-½x) AP: 75

 

Lightning Bolt: RKA 3d6+1; Range: 375; Armor Piercing (1): (+½x); Cannot Be Bounced: (-¼); Not Vs. Insulated Targets: (-½) AP: 75

 

it didn't work...I had to clean it.

 

As to your question Gary::

1) 6 slot multipower with 50 pt reserve. 23 dex 5 spd cost 136

2) 16d6 EB 23 dex 5 spd cost 136

3) 10d6 EB 23 dex 8 spd cost 136

4) 10d6 EB 33 dex 6 spd cost 136

 

Which is superior? Depends...are we talking combat only?

All things being equal otherwise, I'd rank it as

2-3-1-4

Out of combat?

1-2-3-4

 

If the multipower is a six shot ultra combat selector...then it ranks lower out of combat...they are all of equal usage in a non-combat situation.

 

But you're asking me to compare apples pears and oranges again.

[Gary]

Re: Gary

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Which is superior? Depends...are we talking combat only?

All things being equal otherwise, I'd rank it as

2-3-1-4

Out of combat?

1-2-3-4

 

If the multipower is a six shot ultra combat selector...then it ranks lower out of combat...they are all of equal usage in a non-combat situation.

 

But you're asking me to compare apples pears and oranges again.

 

Farkling, you as well as a number of others, were implying that a multipower with 6 ultra slots is much too effective for the points spent. I just found that not to be the case, unless there are restrictions on spending the extra points.

 

The fact is that all 4 of the choices are fairly equal for the same points shows to me that if there is an efficiency advantage for multipowers, it's a fairly small one.

 

Do you still think that multipowers are too efficient for the points spent?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Re: Gary

 

Originally posted by Gary

Farkling, you as well as a number of others, were implying that a multipower with 6 ultra slots is much too effective for the points spent.

 

I can't speak for everyone else, but my case was that the multipower with 6 ultra slots is also an effective cost saving mechanism which provides benefits different from, but roughly as valuable as, those provided by an elemental control.

 

I, and I suspect those also citing this contruct, do not believe the multipower OR the EC provide game-breaking point savings. However, were I to reomve, or curtail, the breaks available from one of these, I believe it would be necessary to review the relative benefits of all point saving frameworks.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Gary

Have you heard of Timberwolf?

 

Anyway, this whole exchange came about when I said that there was no game mechanic reason to ever play a MA over a brick. You disagreed and said that they were equal, but just in different ways. Are you changing your mind now?

 

As a matter of fact I am. I had some spare time at work today and figured I'd write up two effectively similar characters, one with Martial Arts, the other with STR.

 

STR one out...not by much, and I had to buy things in a very specific way to do it (and it involved plugging three martial maneuvers and some extra DC). But ultimately I bought the same thing as the martial artist, but could lift and throw more and had more flexible levels, with one point left spare. It's not much in my opinion....but it's enough to convince me that when all you do is make a character using the toolkit, STR is better than Martial Arts.

 

Of course...I've never heard of anyone playing a game without a GM, and I also havn't seen a GM who'd come close to allowing the "brick" I made into any campaign. That being the reality, the martial artist archtype still isn't any any better or worse than the brick.

[Farkling]

Huh.

 

At this point I wonder why we are discussing this.

 

You obviously prefer to play HERO system as a wargame, since your discussion ALWAYS comes back to combat...

 

I notice that every example you use is combat related also...right down to your point by point number crunching

with Hugh.

 

Which is more effective in an actual RPG scenario? Not straight combat. Combat occupies 25-30% of my games at MOST.

 

Let's see....Windrider (the Weather Witch) has a much broader effect out of combat situations than YOUR combat oriented multipower constructs

 

Hmmm. Here

40 Multipower (60) - Restrainable (Cybernetics)

1 u (10) Molecular Bonding Pads (CLinging, base STR)

1 u (12) Hydraulic Boosters (Leaping + 12")

3 u (60) CX-130 Rail Gun (8d6 EB, No Range Mods, 6 chargesx2)

2 u (50) Dazzle Grenade (Flash 10d6, 8 charges)

4 m (55) Retractable Hoverplates (Flight 25", x4 noncombat, cannot climb, cannot accelerate over water, only on a surface)

 

56 points for 237 points of powers...23%

This is packed on a low strength Brick framework using martial arts for damage. His defenses are brick level. He has CV issues...

 

Tell me how an EC makes this cheaper? Tell me how the EC is more effective? He can't put his armor or characteristics into the EC..

 

Wolf here can blind agents or cameras....shoot up low flying aircraft, stick to walls, leap, leap and stick to walls, fly and leap and stick to a wall, travel at 230 mph out of combat....

 

And you STILL insist that Mr. EC is vastly overpowered? for 237 points he can buy one (or two) attacks, one movement, and maybe a change enviro...and some DEX points to better Wolf. (for YOUR inevitable combat Gary)

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

Hmmm. Here

40 Multipower (60) - Restrainable (Cybernetics)

1 u (10) Molecular Bonding Pads (CLinging, base STR)

1 u (12) Hydraulic Boosters (Leaping + 12")

3 u (60) CX-130 Rail Gun (8d6 EB, No Range Mods, 6 chargesx2)

2 u (50) Dazzle Grenade (Flash 10d6, 8 charges)

4 m (55) Retractable Hoverplates (Flight 25", x4 noncombat, cannot climb, cannot accelerate over water, only on a surface)

 

56 points for 237 points of powers...23%

This is packed on a low strength Brick framework using martial arts for damage. His defenses are brick level. He has CV issues...

 

Tell me how an EC makes this cheaper? Tell me how the EC is more effective? He can't put his armor or characteristics into the EC.

 

This is a fantastic example - and it's not even min/max'ed. Put another 2 in the pool and he can leap or cling, plus Flash. This highlights the counterpoint to EC - EC is very effective for abilities that will be used all at once. Multipower is very effective for powers that will not be required all at once.

 

But you sell yourself short in the combat department. Tinker the flash grenades and make them 6d6 (or 8d8 using the whole pool) 1 hex area accurate. He can pay for quite a few charges of this with 2 xp (he probably gets that for the scenario where he first encounters Lariat). Her 30 DEX doesn't help her dodge them. Her 32" Leap might allow her to make an escape (but it's risky - she may jump into more trouble).

 

This assumes, of course, that Wolf doesn't pick up on Lariat's spatial awareness and make the grenades flash Touch Group as well for 5 extra points - 7d6 Flash (so 7 segments) with one extra sense group, 1 hex, accurate = 60 points. 4 charges (plus the existing -1/2) = 24 points = 2 point slot. Slap on Range limited by STR and he can have two more charges, but four is enough to keep her blinded for about two turns - that should be enough, I would expect.

 

Give him a few more xp and he can build some further gizmos designed specificaly to take Lariat out (say NND Gas Grenades). A new multipower slot can't cost more than 4 points, 2 if it's an ultra. What can Lariat do with 4 XP to beat that?

 

Which highlights the other advantage of the Multipower - it grows way faster. Sure, Wolf has spent a few sessions of XP to handily take out Lariat - but you can't tell me those new grenades will be useless in the future (and he can stop carrying them when his multi gets so many slots it's more efficient to turn it into a VPP ).

[Gary]

Originally posted by Farkling

Huh.

 

At this point I wonder why we are discussing this.

 

You obviously prefer to play HERO system as a wargame, since your discussion ALWAYS comes back to combat...

 

I notice that every example you use is combat related also...right down to your point by point number crunching

with Hugh.

 

Which is more effective in an actual RPG scenario? Not straight combat. Combat occupies 25-30% of my games at MOST.

 

Absolutely combat is just a relatively small part of the game. But it's a very important part. Virtually every cost in Champions is based on combat effectiveness. And virtually every power limitation or advantage is based on how much it helps or hinders in combat. Why do you think that a decent attack power costs 20 times as much as a noncombat skill?

 

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Let's see....Windrider (the Weather Witch) has a much broader effect out of combat situations than YOUR combat oriented multipower constructs

 

Hmmm. Here

40 Multipower (60) - Restrainable (Cybernetics)

1 u (10) Molecular Bonding Pads (CLinging, base STR)

1 u (12) Hydraulic Boosters (Leaping + 12")

3 u (60) CX-130 Rail Gun (8d6 EB, No Range Mods, 6 chargesx2)

2 u (50) Dazzle Grenade (Flash 10d6, 8 charges)

4 m (55) Retractable Hoverplates (Flight 25", x4 noncombat, cannot climb, cannot accelerate over water, only on a surface)

 

56 points for 237 points of powers...23%

This is packed on a low strength Brick framework using martial arts for damage. His defenses are brick level. He has CV issues...

 

Tell me how an EC makes this cheaper? Tell me how the EC is more effective? He can't put his armor or characteristics into the EC..

 

Wolf here can blind agents or cameras....shoot up low flying aircraft, stick to walls, leap, leap and stick to walls, fly and leap and stick to a wall, travel at 230 mph out of combat....

 

Well first of all, it's about 75-80 pts if you remove the restrainable limitation. And it's 187 active pts worth of stuff, not 237 (10+12+60+50+55 = 187). The ratio is about 40-42%, not that much better than a EC. And if you use the EB, it locks out the rest of your multipower. No movements. If you use the Flash, you're limited to either the clinging, or 5" flight. 75-80 pts for a structure that has 187 pts of powers of which only 60 can be used at one point, and only in a very few combinations sounds right to me.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

And you STILL insist that Mr. EC is vastly overpowered? for 237 points he can buy one (or two) attacks, one movement, and maybe a change enviro...and some DEX points to better Wolf. (for YOUR inevitable combat Gary)

 

You mean 187 pts.

[Gary]

Hugh,

 

If you're going to compare this guy to Lariat, consider this. The way he's currently built, his entire multipower is restrainable. All Lariat has to do is to martial grab him (not too difficult vs someone "CV challenged"), and the combat is over immediately. That entire multipower is completely useless if he's grabbed or entangled.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

If you're going to compare this guy to Lariat, consider this. The way he's currently built, his entire multipower is restrainable. All Lariat has to do is to martial grab him (not too difficult vs someone "CV challenged"), and the combat is over immediately.

 

This assumes that you get the first move, which is never guaranteed. You may have DEX and SPD, but he may have stealth on his side.

 

Farkling also mentioned he is a brick, which implies he would have a reasonable chance of freeing himself from your grab. And, of course, if combat starts at a distance (which seems your general assumpting based on the premium you place on movement powers), he can Flash you before you can close in.

 

Originally posted by Gary

That entire multipower is completely useless if he's grabbed or entangled.

 

And your EC disappears if someone has a Drain. If you're looking for a character who can do anything, anytime, you won't find him.

 

In any case, change the Restrainable for OIF and the cost is unchanged, but your easy out is gone.

 

Finally, although you've made no shortage of comments about Farkling's 50 point addition error, I don't see your proposed EC that provides all the same abilities for a similar cost. Wolf can fly around looking for lariat, find her, 1/2 Fly to the roof of a building (1/2 phase), reallocate his pool (0 phase), pull out that nifty new Accurate Flash grenade, toss it down 12" to Lariat in the street below and Lariat is blind. He doesn't NEED to use all these powers at once to be effective. Or it could be a 3d6 Ranged 1 Hex Accurate Stretching Drain Blast, taking away about 1/3 of your EC - and he has three more in his belt. Or make it 2d6 Delayed Fade Rate (5/5 minutes; +1/2), Ranged (+1/2) 4" radius (+1) Drain. Now he effectively needs to hit DCV 0, since he can miss by 3 and you're still in his radius. I bet his CV isn't THAT challenged!

 

Of course, you can dive for cover (if you knew he was there in the first place, and if you don't mind aborting your next phase).

 

He gets 4 Drain Grenades (6 if range is restricted by STR) with 2 xp. To get an equivalent drain on all of his multipower powers, how many xp would you need even if it fit within your EC conception?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

This assumes that you get the first move, which is never guaranteed. You may have DEX and SPD, but he may have stealth on his side.

 

Farkling also mentioned he is a brick, which implies he would have a reasonable chance of freeing himself from your grab. And, of course, if combat starts at a distance (which seems your general assumpting based on the premium you place on movement powers), he can Flash you before you can close in.

 

He's a low str brick with MA. From Farkling's description, it doesn't appear as if he could break free from a 70 str grab.

 

Lariat will always have the initiative vs this guy. If things go bad for her, she has more movement and can run away. If things go bad for him, his only option is to retreat vertically opening himself to 1 or 2 parting attacks.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

And your EC disappears if someone has a Drain. If you're looking for a character who can do anything, anytime, you won't find him.

 

In any case, change the Restrainable for OIF and the cost is unchanged, but your easy out is gone.

 

Yeah, but OIF has other disads. If he's OIF, he should expect to be without the multipower about 1/3 of the time. That's a pretty severe price to pay.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Finally, although you've made no shortage of comments about Farkling's 50 point addition error, I don't see your proposed EC that provides all the same abilities for a similar cost. Wolf can fly around looking for lariat, find her, 1/2 Fly to the roof of a building (1/2 phase), reallocate his pool (0 phase), pull out that nifty new Accurate Flash grenade, toss it down 12" to Lariat in the street below and Lariat is blind. He doesn't NEED to use all these powers at once to be effective. Or it could be a 3d6 Ranged 1 Hex Accurate Stretching Drain Blast, taking away about 1/3 of your EC - and he has three more in his belt. Or make it 2d6 Delayed Fade Rate (5/5 minutes; +1/2), Ranged (+1/2) 4" radius (+1) Drain. Now he effectively needs to hit DCV 0, since he can miss by 3 and you're still in his radius. I bet his CV isn't THAT challenged!

 

Do you really allow people to allocate their multipowers multiple times in a phase? In your description, Wolf is using lots of flight (I kinda doubt from your description that it's a 3" half move) and a grenade in the same phase. That's more than 60 pts of power in the same phase. Now in my campaign and in every one that I know of, nobody can use more than the reserve in active points in a phase.

 

And he's welcome to waste points on something that will only be of use vs a single specific target (the stretching drain). And as you said, it'll only drain 1/3 of the EC per shot. Does Wolf really have 3 attacks to waste on this when Lariat is bearing down on him?

 

Of course while he's doing all this, he has no movement whatsoever. These grenades apparently are so demanding that you can't even leap or cling at the same time you're using them. It'll be trivial to get away if necessary.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Of course, you can dive for cover (if you knew he was there in the first place, and if you don't mind aborting your next phase).

 

For Accurate area effects, you can also dodge them as well as dive for cover. And if you're assuming an ambush situation, Lariat has just as good a chance as Wolf in which case it's over for Wolf.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

He gets 4 Drain Grenades (6 if range is restricted by STR) with 2 xp. To get an equivalent drain on all of his multipower powers, how many xp would you need even if it fit within your EC conception?

 

4 drain grenades that will be taken away 1/3 of the time. That locks out all his movements when he uses them. That he has limited charges. That take away only about 7-10 points per shot. If I want to get the equivalent "drain", I'll either grab him if it's restrainable, or knock him out and take it away from him. Since it's a focus, I can also target it. It has 12 def, so a slightly above average roll, or a push will result in its destruction since all powers of a multipower gets nuked at the same time.

[Gary]

Incidentally Hugh, you still haven't given me an answer to what a "fair" price for an ultra slot would be. You've been ragging on me the entire thread about the -9 limitation for the slot.

 

Since you seem to disagree so vehemently with the -9, it's only fair to ask you what you think the true limitation should be.

[Farkling]

He CAN cling and throw grenades.... that's only 60 active.

 

And after last night, I think he is buying the extra 2 pips so he can Leap and throw grenades, or he's switching the Leaping slot to multi...it's one or the other...so yeah...he can move and throw the grenades. Does it say somewhere that you can't spread a Flash? We allow it...

 

The Rail Gun takes more stabilization from his internal systems...the processor can't operate the interface, rangefinder, and the targetting lock in conjunction with his internal augmentation systems... the grenades are primed and set by the same system, but it's not as demanding.

 

Besides....what would 8d6 injure in a standard supers game besides agents? That gun is for agents...and unsuspecting targets in the distance.

 

Sorry about the math error...I typed that from the MetaCreator display...it doesn't do math that way.

 

I would post the whole character, but I have no idea how, I was just lifting the Multipower... I can output to a file through a filter for RTF or HTML, but can't put it here.

 

The restrainable isn't a grab restrainable. It's the 1/2 level for a reasonably common exotic restraint and his visibly OBVIOUS cybernetics...cybernetics are not a perfect thing in ShadowPlay...and can be switched off temporarily using reasonably uncommon law enforcement equipment. The military has anti-cybernetic weaponry also, as they employ cybernetic corporate mercenaries.