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Originally posted by Gary

Lariat will always have the initiative vs this guy. If things go bad for her, she has more movement and can run away. If things go bad for him, his only option is to retreat vertically opening himself to 1 or 2 parting attacks.

 

Unless Lariat is blinded by the flash, in which case all the mechanics change. Is every scenario in your campagns straight up combat? Wolf has a huge opportunity provided by his multipower to add new abilities. Got grabbed last time? Maybe he shows up this time with a Triggered Drain Damage Aura.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Yeah, but OIF has other disads. If he's OIF, he should expect to be without the multipower about 1/3 of the time. That's a pretty severe price to pay.

 

OK, how many people out there are playing in games where OIF means you only have the power 2 games in 3? A 14- activation roll is the same limitation, and it provides a better than 75% chance the power will act each and every phase. Complete loss of the power for a period of time is a lot more limiting than a failure to activate in one phase, so it's less frequent.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Do you really allow people to allocate their multipowers multiple times in a phase? In your description, Wolf is using lots of flight (I kinda doubt from your description that it's a 3" half move) and a grenade in the same phase. That's more than 60 pts of power in the same phase. Now in my campaign and in every one that I know of, nobody can use more than the reserve in active points in a phase.

 

It was in flight. He shifted it once during the phase (by the book, shifting the points is a zero phase action so he could do it more than once a phase, but that's something I don't generally permit) to move from Flight to Grenade. No wonder you think EC's are over powered if you apply extra limitations to everything else and ignore any limitations for EC's! But if it bugs you that much, he can always land (or start Clinging) at the end of a phase.

 

Originally posted by Gary

And he's welcome to waste points on something that will only be of use vs a single specific target (the stretching drain). And as you said, it'll only drain 1/3 of the EC per shot. Does Wolf really have 3 attacks to waste on this when Lariat is bearing down on him?

 

A force field drain is likely his better choice. And since he can fly (and be in the air at all times), he can fly around untril he finds you and land on top of a building to throw grenades down at you. Let's make it a 10" high building. Your leap is halved going up, so you'll need a full move to get at him (even before a drain, and even assuming you aren't flashed and can still see him).

 

Originally posted by Gary

Of course while he's doing all this, he has no movement whatsoever. These grenades apparently are so demanding that you can't even leap or cling at the same time you're using them. :rolleyes: It'll be trivial to get away if necessary.

 

"That's right Lariat - keep running!" You are the only gamer I know of who equates an escape with a victory.

 

Originally posted by Gary

For Accurate area effects, you can also dodge them as well as dive for cover. And if you're assuming an ambush situation, Lariat has just as good a chance as Wolf in which case it's over for Wolf.

 

Dodge/Dive for Cover - bye bye phase! The latter also leaves you prone, so hopefully Wolf doesn't have any friends along (in my campaign fellow PC's will often forego an attack against theior current opponent to take a shot at an opponent at a temporary disadvantage - one out is better than 5 injured!).

 

And I suspect Wolf has stealth (Farkling can correct me) which makes an ambush by him far more likely. He may also have some enhanced senses which make your ambush less likely.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Since it's a focus, I can also target it. It has 12 def, so a slightly above average roll, or a push will result in its destruction since all powers of a multipower gets nuked at the same time.

 

As I've reminded you before, inaccessible foci are within the character's defenses. My experience is that this generally provides them with WAY more protection than you are assuming. And now that you targeted his Drain grenades, he shifts his points to Flash Grenades and you're weakened and blind.

 

BTW, aren't you the guy who thinks fights start vast distances apart? Why are you assuming your reduced leap will enable you to reach him so quickly? You're losing 8" from every 10 point drain, remember.

 

And I'm still waiting for that much more efficient EC which can do everything this sample multipower can at the same time for a lower cost...

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Originally posted by Gary

Incidentally Hugh, you still haven't given me an answer to what a "fair" price for an ultra slot would be. You've been ragging on me the entire thread about the -9 limitation for the slot.

 

You continue to misquopte me on this. As I read the numerous prior posts, you feel EC is overpowered and should have its cost breaks curtailed. I feel EC is balanced with multipower, VPP and the rest of the game as is. I have no problem with the effective -9 achieved by the present Ultra slot structure, or with the present -1 EC sructure.

 

As I feel they are balanced now, I feel modifying one without modifying the other would throw the system as a whole out of balance, requiring a reduction to the savings generated by multipowers, variable power pools, characteristics efficiency and possibly other constructs. How would each need to change? That would need massive playtesting. Since you're going from -1 to -1/4 for EC's, a substantial reduction, the change to multipowers would need to be similarly substantial. I'm not spending much effort assessing what it should be since I'm also not changing EC's.

 

I will predict that implementing your EC change will have two results. First, players will recognize these nmo longer require connection by tight special effects, and no longer prevent special powers (it's just a limitation) so the EC concept will change considerably. Second, since EC no longer provides point breaks commensurate with other structures, EC's will fall away to be replaced with more effective and efficient constructs, like multipowers and VPP's, which you have not varied.

 

Gary, this discussion has been on the boards quite a while now. Have your players had any comments on your proposed changes?

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Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Unless Lariat is blinded by the flash, in which case all the mechanics change. Is every scenario in your campagns straight up combat? Wolf has a huge opportunity provided by his multipower to add new abilities. Got grabbed last time? Maybe he shows up this time with a Triggered Drain Damage Aura.

 

That wouldn't work if it's in a restrainable focus. And if he has his power in a visable damage aura, he's probably not making any attacks or moving at all.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

OK, how many people out there are playing in games where OIF means you only have the power 2 games in 3? A 14- activation roll is the same limitation, and it provides a better than 75% chance the power will act each and every phase. Complete loss of the power for a period of time is a lot more limiting than a failure to activate in one phase, so it's less frequent.

 

IOW, you're agreeing with me that he's paying severely for taking an OIF limitation. And I have no sympathy for someone who takes that limitation and then goes stretches without the powers.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

It was in flight. He shifted it once during the phase (by the book, shifting the points is a zero phase action so he could do it more than once a phase, but that's something I don't generally permit) to move from Flight to Grenade. No wonder you think EC's are over powered if you apply extra limitations to everything else and ignore any limitations for EC's! But if it bugs you that much, he can always land (or start Clinging) at the end of a phase.

 

I'm not the only one applying "extra" restrictions on multipowers. Apparently Steve Long does so as well. From the FAQ:

 

Multipower

Q: Since allocating reserve points in a Multipower is a Zero-Phase Action, could you allocate points more than once in the same Phase? For example, could a character shift points to his Teleportation slot at the beginning of his Phase, make a Half Move with Teleportation, re-allocate points to his Energy Blast slot, and attack with the EB?

 

A: Generally speaking, no. In most cases a character should only allocate Multipower reserve points once in a Phase. The example above shows just how potentially abusive allowing multiple allocations in the same Phase can be.

 

However, it should be noted that, under a strict technical interpretation of the rules, what you’re describing is possible. To say characters should never be allowed to make multiple reserve point allocations during a Segment could potentially impede a lot of perfectly valid and dramatic actions. Multiple allocations might be appropriate in many situations, campaigns, and genres. The GM might allow it as a campaign ground rule, as a one-time thing in appropriate circumstances, or as a trick occasionally pulled with the assistance of an appropriate Power Skill roll.

 

Apparently he doesn't like the idea of more than the reserve worth of points used per phase either.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

A force field drain is likely his better choice. And since he can fly (and be in the air at all times), he can fly around untril he finds you and land on top of a building to throw grenades down at you. Let's make it a 10" high building. Your leap is halved going up, so you'll need a full move to get at him (even before a drain, and even assuming you aren't flashed and can still see him).

 

Even if I'm flashed, I can still target him. I can half leap upwards 9" and still reach with stretching. Or since these are grenades, I can duck behind a building until he runs out of grenades. Or are only those opposing Lariat allowed to use the terrain?

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

"That's right Lariat - keep running!" You are the only gamer I know of who equates an escape with a victory.

 

I see you equate tactical withdrawal with losing. How Samurai of you. I can simply withdraw until unflashed or undrained. He only has 4 grenades anyway.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Dodge/Dive for Cover - bye bye phase! The latter also leaves you prone, so hopefully Wolf doesn't have any friends along (in my campaign fellow PC's will often forego an attack against theior current opponent to take a shot at an opponent at a temporary disadvantage - one out is better than 5 injured!).

 

And I suspect Wolf has stealth (Farkling can correct me) which makes an ambush by him far more likely. He may also have some enhanced senses which make your ambush less likely.

 

Dodge, or since these are grenades, missile deflection.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

As I've reminded you before, inaccessible foci are within the character's defenses. My experience is that this generally provides them with WAY more protection than you are assuming. And now that you targeted his Drain grenades, he shifts his points to Flash Grenades and you're weakened and blind.

 

I'd like you to provide an actual cite that inaccessible foci are protected by a character's personal defenses. Or are you pulling that out your butt as well?

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

BTW, aren't you the guy who thinks fights start vast distances apart? Why are you assuming your reduced leap will enable you to reach him so quickly? You're losing 8" from every 10 point drain, remember.

 

If we're so far apart that I can't reach him in a phase, then range mods are going to be biting him. It's no guarantee that he'll hit with a -4 or -6 range mod, and it'll be trivial to dodge or missile deflect if he has those penalties.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

And I'm still waiting for that much more efficient EC which can do everything this sample multipower can at the same time for a lower cost...

 

If bought straight, the powers would cost 7+30+25+22 = 84 pts (leap not necessary). The current multi costs 51 pts. For 33 extra points, the straight power guy can use 175 pts of powers all at the same time including a MPA between the EB and flash. Not a bad tradeoff. If you do it as a EC, you'll get:

 

17 EC 50 pt powers restrainable or OIF (-1/2)

17 60 pt EB 2 clips 6 chgs

12 50 pts flash 2 clips 6 chgs

12 25" flight X4 noncombat cannot climb, cannot accelerate over water, only on a surface

 

7 clinging

 

65 pts. For 14 extra points, you can fly and attack at the same time at full power. The leap isn't necessary since he can fly at will. It costs 14 pts more, but it's vastly more effective. (Although this breaks down once you start adding more attacks in).

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Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

You continue to misquopte me on this. As I read the numerous prior posts, you feel EC is overpowered and should have its cost breaks curtailed. I feel EC is balanced with multipower, VPP and the rest of the game as is. I have no problem with the effective -9 achieved by the present Ultra slot structure, or with the present -1 EC sructure.

 

As I feel they are balanced now, I feel modifying one without modifying the other would throw the system as a whole out of balance, requiring a reduction to the savings generated by multipowers, variable power pools, characteristics efficiency and possibly other constructs. How would each need to change? That would need massive playtesting. Since you're going from -1 to -1/4 for EC's, a substantial reduction, the change to multipowers would need to be similarly substantial. I'm not spending much effort assessing what it should be since I'm also not changing EC's.

 

That's only if you assume it's currently balanced. I happen not to.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I will predict that implementing your EC change will have two results. First, players will recognize these nmo longer require connection by tight special effects, and no longer prevent special powers (it's just a limitation) so the EC concept will change considerably. Second, since EC no longer provides point breaks commensurate with other structures, EC's will fall away to be replaced with more effective and efficient constructs, like multipowers and VPP's, which you have not varied.

 

Your playes must not be mature if they wouldn't use tight special effects. You still have to justify why draining batarangs would drain your superleap first before getting a limitation. :rolleyes:

 

I don't see how anything will change. The "EC" still gives a decent cost break, just not as much as before.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Gary, this discussion has been on the boards quite a while now. Have your players had any comments on your proposed changes?

 

None of them would have any problem with it. I just don't have time to run or play in a campaign right now. :(

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Originally posted by Gary

That's only if you assume it's currently balanced. I happen not to.

 

 

 

Your playes must not be mature if they wouldn't use tight special effects. You still have to justify why draining batarangs would drain your superleap first before getting a limitation. :rolleyes:

 

I don't see how anything will change. The "EC" still gives a decent cost break, just not as much as before.

 

 

 

None of them would have any problem with it. I just don't have time to run or play in a campaign right now. :(

Now we're assigning maturity to a certain taste in character construction?
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Originally posted by Agent X

Now we're assigning maturity to a certain taste in character construction?

 

Hugh was suggesting that players would slap the -1/4 limitation on any random set of powers. I'm saying that someone who would slap that limitation on something like batarangs and superleap isn't very mature.

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Originally posted by Gary

Hugh was suggesting that players would slap the -1/4 limitation on any random set of powers. I'm saying that someone who would slap that limitation on something like batarangs and superleap isn't very mature.

Some people don't take the game as seriously and have a different agenda with it. I've played with people who ignored half the rules in the book and they all had a great time. I did too, once I got over the shock of the monstrosities they built. I prefer a more conservative approach but to each his own, to own his each... something like that.
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Originally posted by Gary

That wouldn't work if it's in a restrainable focus. And if he has his power in a visable damage aura, he's probably not making any attacks or moving at all.

 

Once the Trigger is set to go off, the power has been used. Restrainable will prevent another trigger being set up while restrained, but won't prevent the triggered effect happening. Much like a continuing charge,m once rolling, would not shut down.

 

Originally posted by Gary

IOW, you're agreeing with me that he's paying severely for taking an OIF limitation. And I have no sympathy for someone who takes that limitation and then goes stretches without the powers.

 

No, I am disagreeing with your interpretation that OIF should carry any more overall limitation than any other -1/2 limitation. Should he sometimes be without his OIF? Yes. Should it happen with great frequency? No more frequently than he can't Gesture and Incant, or Gesture Throughout, or is impeded by any other -1/2 limitation.

 

Originally posted by Gary

I'm not the only one applying "extra" restrictions on multipowers. Apparently Steve Long does so as well. From the FAQ:

 

Multipower

Q: Since allocating reserve points in a Multipower is a Zero-Phase Action, could you allocate points more than once in the same Phase? For example, could a character shift points to his Teleportation slot at the beginning of his Phase, make a Half Move with Teleportation, re-allocate points to his Energy Blast slot, and attack with the EB?

 

A: Generally speaking, no. In most cases a character should only allocate Multipower reserve points once in a Phase. The example above shows just how potentially abusive allowing multiple allocations in the same Phase can be.

 

However, it should be noted that, under a strict technical interpretation of the rules, what you’re describing is possible. To say characters should never be allowed to make multiple reserve point allocations during a Segment could potentially impede a lot of perfectly valid and dramatic actions. Multiple allocations might be appropriate in many situations, campaigns, and genres. The GM might allow it as a campaign ground rule, as a one-time thing in appropriate circumstances, or as a trick occasionally pulled with the assistance of an appropriate Power Skill roll.

 

Apparently he doesn't like the idea of more than the reserve worth of points used per phase either.

 

Apparantly you did not read the whole statement. I have added some emphasis above to assist you in reading the whole of what Steve said.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Even if I'm flashed, I can still target him. I can half leap upwards 9" and still reach with stretching. Or since these are grenades, I can duck behind a building until he runs out of grenades. Or are only those opposing Lariat allowed to use the terrain?

 

You're a lot easier to follow blinded (especially if he also takes out your Spatial Awareness). Go ahead and half leap - but he should feel free to leap for cover too! You'll still be flashed afterwards.

 

Originally posted by Gary

I see you equate tactical withdrawal with losing. How Samurai of you. I can simply withdraw until unflashed or undrained. He only has 4 grenades anyway.

 

This depends on whether his goal is to attack you, or to accomplish some other objective your presence frustrates. It's pretty egotistical of you to expect the only worthwhile goal Wolf could have is capturing you. Maybe he's just delaying you while his allies steal your company's secret production method for cloth armor.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Dodge, or since these are grenades, missile deflection.

 

Only if he applies the limitation "can be misssile deflected". Would I require him to do so? Depends on his special effect. Perhaps his "grenades" are tiny jet-propelled beasties capable of evading your tentacles.

 

Originally posted by Gary

I'd like you to provide an actual cite that inaccessible foci are protected by a character's personal defenses. Or are you pulling that out your butt as well?

 

flip flip flip flip. Actually, it must be a pre-5e reference based on the phrasing of the books. Given the nature of Wolf's powers, however, he sounds like he has many foci, any one of which enables his powers to work (see "multiple foci", p 190). You can break one - best of luck breaking them all. Or perhaps, given there are millions of cybernetic components, the Focus is best defined as "unbreakable".

 

BTW, if it were breakable it would have 13 DEF based on the very specific discussion of multipowers in a focus.

 

Originally posted by Gary

If we're so far apart that I can't reach him in a phase, then range mods are going to be biting him. It's no guarantee that he'll hit with a -4 or -6 range mod, and it'll be trivial to dodge or missile deflect if he has those penalties.

 

Dodge and Missile Deflect don't work exceptionally well against Area Effect attacks (as opposed to Accurate attacks).How do you know which one he's using? Choose wrong and you're nailed! In any case, your phase is gone - hopefully, Wolf is alone. Hey, if Lariat is the toughest member of the group, Wolf will likely win if he can delay her long enough for the rest of his group to deal with the rest of your group (lots of dynamics there, of course). And this assumes a "win" can be achieved only by KO, not by accomplishing a goal unrelated to your character (ie we'd be just as happy if she never showed up).

 

And he only needs to be 9" away if it's up to prevent you half moving and attacking. -4 makes your hex a big DCV 7 - I don't know many characters who'll miss that hex on an 11+.

 

Originally posted by Gary

If bought straight, the powers would cost 7+30+25+22 = 84 pts (leap not necessary). The current multi costs 51 pts. For 33 extra points, the straight power guy can use 175 pts of powers all at the same time including a MPA between the EB and flash. Not a bad tradeoff. If you do it as a EC, you'll get:

 

17 EC 50 pt powers restrainable or OIF (-1/2)

17 60 pt EB 2 clips 6 chgs

12 50 pts flash 2 clips 6 chgs

12 25" flight X4 noncombat cannot climb, cannot accelerate over water, only on a surface

 

7 clinging

 

65 pts. For 14 extra points, you can fly and attack at the same time at full power. The leap isn't necessary since he can fly at will. It costs 14 pts more, but it's vastly more effective. (Although this breaks down once you start adding more attacks in).

 

Why is the Leap not necessary? I suspect he uses it to gain altitude, as his Flight cannot gain altitude. This little thing about powers consistent with conception seems to really trip you up - if he was going for pure effectiveness, the flight certainly wouldn't be limited like it is. So that's another 8 points to retain the Leap.

 

For 14 extra points, he can instead buy another 7 attack options. For the 22 points your amendment actually cost him, he can buy 11! Fit those into your EC construct so we can compare using equal points.

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Originally posted by Gary

That's only if you assume it's currently balanced. I happen not to.

 

Do you really see a preponderance of EC's over multipowers? That's the clear indicator, in my eyes, that the two are not balanced, one against the other.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Your playes must not be mature if they wouldn't use tight special effects. You still have to justify why draining batarangs would drain your superleap first before getting a limitation. :rolleyes:

 

There's a big difference between the tight special effects required for an EC and slapping the limit on every power you have - including special powers, since this is no longer a framework.

 

And if your players bend over backwards to justify an EC for every character or shoehorn in a 25"+ movement rate regardless of character conception, I don't think they're a great comparison for "maturity".

 

Originally posted by Gary

I don't see how anything will change. The "EC" still gives a decent cost break, just not as much as before.

 

Chanmge multipower slot costs to 1/2 for Multi and 1/3 for Ultra and see how many people still use them. It's still a substantial cost break, but suddenly multiple power attacks are starting to look a lot more appealing.

 

Originally posted by Gary

None of them would have any problem with it. I just don't have time to run or play in a campaign right now. :(

 

In other words, you don't actually know. I can say "I have no problem with the change" simply because it means I'll use a multipower based character rather than an EC based character.

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For the record, what I'm seeing on ECs for savings is more like a -3/4 savings rather than a -1. I was going to use the Champions but noticed they only had 1 EC character; I looked through player-characters I've seen. All pre-5th so in theory they'd save even less IF one were to adopt 5th rules - which I'm not - so the implication is they'd save more like 1/2-3/4 under 5th since so many powers can't be put under an EC.

 

The one Champion with an EC, Witchcraft, saved 80%, pretty close to -3/4.

 

Nit-picking, yes, but I wanted to temper this -1 business a bit. It ignores the control cost and ignores that often characters have ECs including powers more than twice the control cost.

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Originally posted by zornwil

For the record, what I'm seeing on ECs for savings is more like a -3/4 savings rather than a -1. I was going to use the Champions but noticed they only had 1 EC character; I looked through player-characters I've seen. All pre-5th so in theory they'd save even less IF one were to adopt 5th rules - which I'm not - so the implication is they'd save more like 1/2-3/4 under 5th since so many powers can't be put under an EC.

 

The one Champion with an EC, Witchcraft, saved 80%, pretty close to -3/4.

 

Nit-picking, yes, but I wanted to temper this -1 business a bit. It ignores the control cost and ignores that often characters have ECs including powers more than twice the control cost.

Excellent point on the savings from ECs. I have had a real problem using ECs with my 5th Edition characters based on theme and power selection. It's one of the reasons Gary's problem baffles me.
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Originally posted by zornwil

Nit-picking, yes, but I wanted to temper this -1 business a bit. It ignores the control cost and ignores that often characters have ECs including powers more than twice the control cost.

 

It does depend how you measure it (all powers, all powers of the SFX or "just" all powers actuallt placed in the EC), but it's definitely true the EC doesn't halve the price of added powers. Even a 5 slot EC with all the same points (and would they all be the same points, if not for the EC structure) costs 3 full powers, so 60% of the cost absent an EC. It never does get down to 1/2 cost in aggregate.

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In Shadows case his systems may or may not be wrecked one by one...his dermal plating and internal shock absorbtion is defined as a cybernetics augmentation (Not even restrainable!), but the powers are a different suite from the same special effect. Gary may get to break the multipower...provided he can do the damage...how does he plan to target this stuff ?? He has to smash it up with raw damage...or steal/build the equipment that the government uses...THEN he will need to get Wolf to hold still.

 

Heh...the character has a small disregard for death and injury, and has been known to simply divert his Multipower as necessary and suffer the insignificant falling damage. He charged a 40-foot Tank that was mostly invisible to his electronics and onboards with little concern. The player is revelling in his durablility...it's a switch from the Champions he was taught.

 

Incidentally, Lariat has to exert haymaker damage to stand a chance of penetrating his Armor...it's 20/20.

 

Also, Gary presumes much from his PER roll...exact counts of grenades, damage level of the Rail Gun...yadda yadda yadda

 

Tomatoe Tomato

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As to the brutal approach of OIF'ing the Multipower...

 

Sez right here::

 

"If a character has multiple Foci, all Foci are 'outside' of any defenses they don't provide -- so if Lorraine has OAF goggles which give her Telescopic Vision, the defenses provided by her powered armor wouldn't protect the goggles from damage. (Of course, she could have made the goggles OIF, and thuis part of the suit and protected by its defenses, but that would have cost more points"

 

Pg. 189, c2, p3

 

NO contradiction in the FAQ, or the errata...

 

So, for Gary's strict rules interpretations, we will define the OIF as Cybernetic Systems...since the Armor is also a cybernetic system, it protects the Multipower.

 

Shadow can buy a couple Susceptibles to mimic the general Cybernetic effects that are in place, AND apply a 1/4 limitation to some of his other powers to clump them in with the cybernetic systems effect. Those points should allow him to dump a Hunted also.

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Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

(snip) It never does get down to 1/2 cost in aggregate.

 

Yeah, in point of execution that's true. I was just thinking of scenarios like:

 

20 point EC control

 

20 HKA

40 EB

20 FF

TOTAL - 100

 

If no EC:

 

40 HKA

60 EB

40 FF

TOTAL - 140

 

Which of course is even less than +1/2. But that's an oddity and I agree. I do think though you'll see some number of ECs closer to 1/2 than 3/4 - I have anyway.

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Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Once the Trigger is set to go off, the power has been used. Restrainable will prevent another trigger being set up while restrained, but won't prevent the triggered effect happening. Much like a continuing charge,m once rolling, would not shut down.

 

Trigger by what? By touch? That would mean that every time a leaf or mosquito touched the field, it goes off. And you would have to set up the trigger ahead of time. How many of these charges do you have?

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

No, I am disagreeing with your interpretation that OIF should carry any more overall limitation than any other -1/2 limitation. Should he sometimes be without his OIF? Yes. Should it happen with great frequency? No more frequently than he can't Gesture and Incant, or Gesture Throughout, or is impeded by any other -1/2 limitation.

 

And -1/2 limitations are pretty severe. A decent amount of time, the OIF is gone, and it can be targetted in combat. That's a level of vulnerability that people without OIFs don't have. And he's SOL if he happens to not have the OIF when fighting Lariat.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Apparantly you did not read the whole statement. I have added some emphasis above to assist you in reading the whole of what Steve said.

 

I did read the whole statement. Steve doesn't like having more points than the reserve per phase but he won't strictly forbid it because it's a GM call. The fact that you're so liberal with multipowers might be the reason you think they're overly effective vs ECs.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

You're a lot easier to follow blinded (especially if he also takes out your Spatial Awareness). Go ahead and half leap - but he should feel free to leap for cover too! You'll still be flashed afterwards.

 

You're assuming that Wolf gets the first attack and hits with it. A very iffy assumption.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

This depends on whether his goal is to attack you, or to accomplish some other objective your presence frustrates. It's pretty egotistical of you to expect the only worthwhile goal Wolf could have is capturing you. Maybe he's just delaying you while his allies steal your company's secret production method for cloth armor.

 

Since his movements are slower than mine, it's easy for me to pursue him as he's trying to get away. But since you don't seem to think that movements are important, I guess you don't factor this into your thinking.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Only if he applies the limitation "can be misssile deflected". Would I require him to do so? Depends on his special effect. Perhaps his "grenades" are tiny jet-propelled beasties capable of evading your tentacles.

 

Then instead of grenades, you should have said jet-propelled beasties. The description of missile deflection specifically states that it can apply to area effect attacks depending on its special effects. As an example, it says that an area effect attack carried through a bullet can be deflected.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

flip flip flip flip. Actually, it must be a pre-5e reference based on the phrasing of the books. Given the nature of Wolf's powers, however, he sounds like he has many foci, any one of which enables his powers to work (see "multiple foci", p 190). You can break one - best of luck breaking them all. Or perhaps, given there are millions of cybernetic components, the Focus is best defined as "unbreakable".

 

BTW, if it were breakable it would have 13 DEF based on the very specific discussion of multipowers in a focus.

 

Actually, page 190 seems to indicate that if you want the focus to be less vulnerable to destruction, you have to take less of a limitation on it. And unbreakable has its own headaches. Once lost, you have to get that specific focus back instead of recreating it from the factory. However, I think even you realize how cheesy it would be to take unbreakable in this case.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Dodge and Missile Deflect don't work exceptionally well against Area Effect attacks (as opposed to Accurate attacks).How do you know which one he's using? Choose wrong and you're nailed! In any case, your phase is gone - hopefully, Wolf is alone. Hey, if Lariat is the toughest member of the group, Wolf will likely win if he can delay her long enough for the rest of his group to deal with the rest of your group (lots of dynamics there, of course). And this assumes a "win" can be achieved only by KO, not by accomplishing a goal unrelated to your character (ie we'd be just as happy if she never showed up).

 

And he only needs to be 9" away if it's up to prevent you half moving and attacking. -4 makes your hex a big DCV 7 - I don't know many characters who'll miss that hex on an 11+.

 

Since Wolf took the Obvious focus limitation, and since his powers aren't invisible, it's readily apparent which attack he's using. Why would he need to be only 9" up? Lariat's half move upward is 9" and she has a further 5" stretching. It's easy to reach him at 9". Also, you're assuming that Wolf will get the first attack. A dubious assumption.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Why is the Leap not necessary? I suspect he uses it to gain altitude, as his Flight cannot gain altitude. This little thing about powers consistent with conception seems to really trip you up - if he was going for pure effectiveness, the flight certainly wouldn't be limited like it is. So that's another 8 points to retain the Leap.

 

Ha ha ha! You're the one changing his conception at will, changing his limitation from restrainable to OIF just to help this little contest vs Lariat. Hi Mr Pot. :rolleyes:

 

And it doesn't seem to bother you in the least that lobbing a grenade somehow forces him to turn off his flight, or stop clinging, or not be able to leap. I don't think you have a single leg to stand on when it comes to conception.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

For 14 extra points, he can instead buy another 7 attack options. For the 22 points your amendment actually cost him, he can buy 11! Fit those into your EC construct so we can compare using equal points.

 

Have you ever heard of diminishing returns? He could have 100 attacks in his multipower and he could still use only 1. And all of them go away at once when the focus is targetted and destroyed or taken away. And whenever he uses any of them, he immediately starts plummeting from the sky, since you've used 60 pt attacks for all your examples. If 3 segments pass until his next phase, that's 30" of fall. Splat.

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Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Do you really see a preponderance of EC's over multipowers? That's the clear indicator, in my eyes, that the two are not balanced, one against the other.

 

I see both used at the same time quite a bit. However, multipowers aren't free points. You pay for the flexibility. ECs are free points.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

There's a big difference between the tight special effects required for an EC and slapping the limit on every power you have - including special powers, since this is no longer a framework.

 

Why? You still have to justify why a group of powers would all be drained at the same time if any of them are drained. And if it bothers you so much, you can easily forbid special powers or 0 end powers from taking this limitation.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

And if your players bend over backwards to justify an EC for every character or shoehorn in a 25"+ movement rate regardless of character conception, I don't think they're a great comparison for "maturity".

 

That's a lot better than you for suggesting that draining a batarang would drain superleap at the same time.

 

And that's a problem with the current system. It discourages certain conceptions. Someone who can justify putting their defenses and movements in a EC has a clear advantage over someone who can't. I'd rather limit it so that the EC provides only as many points in savings as it's actually worth.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Chanmge multipower slot costs to 1/2 for Multi and 1/3 for Ultra and see how many people still use them. It's still a substantial cost break, but suddenly multiple power attacks are starting to look a lot more appealing.

 

It is not a substantial cost break. Spending 20 pts per slot for a ultra slot on a 60 pt multipower would be very inefficient. Those 20 points are much better spent on other things.

 

On the other hand, spending 128 pts for 160 pts of powers is still fairly efficient, even if it doesn't give as much of a savings as 100 pts for a current EC.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

In other words, you don't actually know. I can say "I have no problem with the change" simply because it means I'll use a multipower based character rather than an EC based character.

 

You're right, I haven't actually played it. But neither have you which makes me wonder why you feel so strongly that it'll be an utter disaster.

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Originally posted by Farkling

As to the brutal approach of OIF'ing the Multipower...

 

Sez right here::

 

 

 

Pg. 189, c2, p3

 

NO contradiction in the FAQ, or the errata...

 

So, for Gary's strict rules interpretations, we will define the OIF as Cybernetic Systems...since the Armor is also a cybernetic system, it protects the Multipower.

 

Shadow can buy a couple Susceptibles to mimic the general Cybernetic effects that are in place, AND apply a 1/4 limitation to some of his other powers to clump them in with the cybernetic systems effect. Those points should allow him to dump a Hunted also.

 

I don't think cybernetics should be considered a focus since it requires surgery to remove. I can't imagine any cybernetics that can be removed in 1 turn out of combat. If all his powers are OIF, then Shadow simply becomes a powered armor user.

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Originally posted by zornwil

For the record, what I'm seeing on ECs for savings is more like a -3/4 savings rather than a -1. I was going to use the Champions but noticed they only had 1 EC character; I looked through player-characters I've seen. All pre-5th so in theory they'd save even less IF one were to adopt 5th rules - which I'm not - so the implication is they'd save more like 1/2-3/4 under 5th since so many powers can't be put under an EC.

 

The one Champion with an EC, Witchcraft, saved 80%, pretty close to -3/4.

 

Nit-picking, yes, but I wanted to temper this -1 business a bit. It ignores the control cost and ignores that often characters have ECs including powers more than twice the control cost.

 

Remember the "double dipping" aspect when interacting with other limitations. Since you're dividing twice rather than once with a standard limitation, under some circumstances it's possible that the EC is worth more than -1.

 

For example, the 5 power 60 pt EC. Normally it costs 180 pts, a -2/3 limitation. If you made it an OAF EC, then the cost of the EC drops to 90 pts. This is equivalent to a -1.333 limitation in addition to a -1 OAF limitation.

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Originally posted by Gary

Remember the "double dipping" aspect when interacting with other limitations. Since you're dividing twice rather than once with a standard limitation, under some circumstances it's possible that the EC is worth more than -1.

 

For example, the 5 power 60 pt EC. Normally it costs 180 pts, a -2/3 limitation. If you made it an OAF EC, then the cost of the EC drops to 90 pts. This is equivalent to a -1.333 limitation in addition to a -1 OAF limitation.

 

Yeah, good point. FWIW, though, on the characters i looked at, even with the potential for double-dipping, none were at -1, all were somewhere slightly less than -3/4 to closer to -1 than 3/4.

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Originally posted by Gary

You pay for the flexibility. ECs are free points.

(LOTS snipped)

 

You should at least have the courtesy to say "mostly free", I think, to be fair, that in terms of the restrictions imposed by 5th edition, there are quite clearly limitations to putting powers into an EC. You are welcome to claim it is unbalanced/unfair/whatever, but at least acknowledge that ECs built from the rules are not all the equivalent of otherwise -0 constructs.

 

Why this tweaked me out of all the points, I dunno, I'm sure others have made overboard statements, including me. I guess I just think after over 25 pages there should be SOME common ground.

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Originally posted by zornwil

You should at least have the courtesy to say "mostly free", I think, to be fair, that in terms of the restrictions imposed by 5th edition, there are quite clearly limitations to putting powers into an EC. You are welcome to claim it is unbalanced/unfair/whatever, but at least acknowledge that ECs built from the rules are not all the equivalent of otherwise -0 constructs.

 

Why this tweaked me out of all the points, I dunno, I'm sure others have made overboard statements, including me. I guess I just think after over 25 pages there should be SOME common ground.

 

I stand corrected. Anything more than a -1/4 limitation would be free points. ;)

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Originally posted by Gary

I stand corrected. Anything more than a -1/4 limitation would be free points. ;)

 

Hey, -1/4 ain't hay! I'm satisfied.

 

:)

 

As to this thread, it seems to have hit the wall. I'm still watching to see if something more interesting emerges, as I really got a lot out of it a few pages ago, as you know. In fact I have implemented the "NND standard" in my game, I'll let you all know how it goes the next time this comes up (and it will - EC discusssions NEVER die - which to me does mean there's some issue there, as I think I stated before).

 

Okay, time to see if I can get 2 hours sleep before going to work...

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Originally posted by Gary

Trigger by what? By touch? That would mean that every time a leaf or mosquito touched the field, it goes off. And you would have to set up the trigger ahead of time. How many of these charges do you have?

 

What's a reasonable Trigger? Hmmm...How about 2+ BOD of pressure applied to his dermal plating (I think Farkling used that term). You squeeze, the power goes off. Since you have no way of knowing that, he will get the power off.

 

Originally posted by Gary

And -1/2 limitations are pretty severe. A decent amount of time, the OIF is gone, and it can be targetted in combat. That's a level of vulnerability that people without OIFs don't have. And he's SOL if he happens to not have the OIF when fighting Lariat.

 

It should be no less, and no more, severe than any other -1/2 limitation. Complete absence of the power is, of course, quite severe, and that is balanced out by its frequency. And if he happens not to have the OIF, he may have to delay any confrontation until it's recovered or rebuilt.

 

As for targetting, I buy Farkling's explanation - it's covered by the dermal plating. Assuming a "grenade", I'd let it be targetted as he's throwing it as it's then outside the plating.

 

For interest, how often was lariat in serious supwerheroic combat (ie not just an agent Martial Thrown) and did not have her Armor?

 

Originally posted by Gary

I did read the whole statement. Steve doesn't like having more points than the reserve per phase but he won't strictly forbid it because it's a GM call. The fact that you're so liberal with multipowers might be the reason you think they're overly effective vs ECs.

 

I see...your problem isn't with the basic words, but with their comprehension. In any event, the character can simply land, then shift in his next phase. This is not a difficult concept.

 

Originally posted by Gary

You're assuming that Wolf gets the first attack and hits with it. A very iffy assumption.

 

Depends how well his other abilities contribute to stealth.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Since his movements are slower than mine, it's easy for me to pursue him as he's trying to get away. But since you don't seem to think that movements are important, I guess you don't factor this into your thinking.

 

One drain and you're not faster than him, and in any case he can take corners. Based on the power and flexibility you attribute to Leaping, it clearly should not be a half cost movement power. That's more unbalanced than anything the EC can do.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Then instead of grenades, you should have said jet-propelled beasties. The description of missile deflection specifically states that it can apply to area effect attacks depending on its special effects. As an example, it says that an area effect attack carried through a bullet can be deflected.

 

"Depending on special effects". We could just call them "going off on contact". In any case, missile deflection costs you your phase, and you have no way of knowing howq long he can keep this up (ie how many charges he has)..

 

Originally posted by Gary

Actually, page 190 seems to indicate that if you want the focus to be less vulnerable to destruction, you have to take less of a limitation on it. And unbreakable has its own headaches. Once lost, you have to get that specific focus back instead of recreating it from the factory. However, I think even you realize how cheesy it would be to take unbreakable in this case.

 

This comes down to the nature of his cybernetic systems. "Unbreakable" would seem a reasonable way to simulate the fact they cannot be accurately targeted. This is likely why the character in question uses Restrainable in the first place. We'll go with Farkling's approach and Focus the defenses through the same OIF Cybernetic systems; let's give him 25/25 defenses since it seems pretty clear DEF is higher in your campaign with Lariat's 32. The Multi therefore benefits from DEF 25.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Since Wolf took the Obvious focus limitation, and since his powers aren't invisible, it's readily apparent which attack he's using.

 

No, it's apparant where the attack comes from. Defender's suit doesn't light up "Commencing NND Mode Now" either.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Why would he need to be only 9" up? Lariat's half move upward is 9" and she has a further 5" stretching. It's easy to reach him at 9". Also, you're assuming that Wolf will get the first attack. A dubious assumption.

 

1/2 x 32 = 16 x 1/2 (up) = 8. And since I'm assuming he selects an ambush location with care, may as well assume you lack the space for a running start. The stretching (whatever remains after his drain) may require him to be further up, but 9" = 16" as far as range penalties (the topic of discussion) goes.

 

Originally posted by Gary

And it doesn't seem to bother you in the least that lobbing a grenade somehow forces him to turn off his flight, or stop clinging, or not be able to leap. I don't think you have a single leg to stand on when it comes to conception.

 

This multipower is permitted in Farkling's campaign. Based on his discussion points historically, I believe the character's power structure will be well justified. You seem to assume that force tendrils will be fully legitimate (although I have noted others with concerns about your spatial awareness processing speed) but no one else might have a decent character conception.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Have you ever heard of diminishing returns? He could have 100 attacks in his multipower and he could still use only 1. And all of them go away at once when the focus is targetted and destroyed or taken away. And whenever he uses any of them, he immediately starts plummeting from the sky, since you've used 60 pt attacks for all your examples. If 3 segments pass until his next phase, that's 30" of fall. Splat.

 

Her can use one AT A TIME. We've addressed the Focus issue - armor through cybercomp[onents outside the Multi would resolve the problem until/unless you get him out of combat. A character could certainly buy these without a focus. 60 points with 4 charges = 3 points per slot, a bit more expensive but not much. And still not approaching the cost of a new EC slot.

 

He can correct the "plummet" with another 2 points in his base power, again not overly costly. It's enough to hiver with, and lob grenades down from 16" (more than you can leap after the first drain).

 

Can we each devise a scenario where our "pick" would win? Sure. That m,eans they're more or less balanced. Of course, I'm going only from Wolf's multipower where we know Lariat's full 350 points, but that's not the issue. Maybe we assume Wolf has 3/4 physical damage reduction and 5" teleportation - suddenly, your grabs seem much less effective.

 

The point was to compare Multipower vs EC, was it not? You still have not demonstarted how an EC is a cheaper approach to accomplish what this character accomplishes. Your best approach costs an extra 14 points, a fair percentage of the cost of the multipower itself.

 

If I wanted to design a character to take out Lariat, how tough would it be? Let's say 16d6 Mind Scan, 0 END (120 points) plus 20d6 Mind Control, Telepathic Commands, 1/2 END (150 points). That leaves 80 points. Use 64 for a 42 Ego, 16 for +8 REC. He has a 2 speed and no defenses. He Mind Scans Lariat from his luxury condo in the Cayman Islands, then Mind Controls her (average roll of 70 - better to say "dominates her". He can retain her under control until she makes an ego roll at -6 (assuming she is violently opposed, and he got an average roll). He spends 6 END on the mind control x 2 phases = 12 END per turn = his recovery. Lariat is now his character.

 

The point is that we can alaways devise a character and/or a scenario to take another character out. This discussion should be focused on the EC "excessive value" issue, not whether Lariat can or can't pull any given scenario out of the fire. If Lariat is overpowered, the EC is not the primary reason.

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Originally posted by Gary

I see both used at the same time quite a bit. However, multipowers aren't free points. You pay for the flexibility. ECs are free points.

 

I thnk we've adequately demonstrated that you and I differ on whether the EC is, in fact, a freebie. It is a reward for a tight character conception, as opposed to having (as you say) batarangs, swing lines and superleap, or flight, heat vision, strength and invulnerability (or is Superman not Genre enough for you?)

 

Originally posted by Gary

Why? You still have to justify why a group of powers would all be drained at the same time if any of them are drained. And if it bothers you so much, you can easily forbid special powers or 0 end powers from taking this limitation.

 

Why all those powers derive from my innate mystical nature, my nanobot technology or the fact I'm a human solar cell, Gary. Characters with a wide array of disparate powers commonly have a linkage in their character conception, just not one tight enough to justify an EC (or their point costs are too disparate, or some don't cost END, or are special powers).

 

Originally posted by Gary

That's a lot better than you for suggesting that draining a batarang would drain superleap at the same time.

 

Please point me to MY statement in this regard - you are the wone always coming back to the Batman example, Gary.

 

Originally posted by Gary

And that's a problem with the current system. It discourages certain conceptions. Someone who can justify putting their defenses and movements in a EC has a clear advantage over someone who can't. I'd rather limit it so that the EC provides only as many points in savings as it's actually worth.

 

You see a huge point leakage. Based on the commentary to date, however, you are the only one. Zornwil has proposed some enforcement of common linkage (ie the ability to shut the powers down without a superpower). No one else has proposed any amendment whatsoever. Hmmm...is the problem the system, or is it Gary?

 

Originally posted by Gary

You're right, I haven't actually played it. But neither have you which makes me wonder why you feel so strongly that it'll be an utter disaster.

 

"Utter disaster" is another of use of your words, not mine, Gary. My perspective is that the system as is works, so why mess with it. Yours is that the present structure provides such excessive point savings that we need to change this one facet of the game to "correct" it.

 

What does lariat's EC cost under your system, compared with the present cost of purchasing Spatial Awareness outside the EC? Current cost of EC + Spatial + Extra Limbs = 91 (82 + 9 to take Awareness out of EC).

 

+1/4 limit instead:

 

Limbs = 4

Field = 24

Strecth = 21

Leap = 24

Deflect = 17

Aware = 16

 

Total 106.

 

15 points.

 

Gary, in your rebuttal of Wolf's Multi vs EC "dilemma", you felt the 14 extra points, eliminating one of his powers, was a trivial amount. I don't think eliminating 15 points from Lariat would be any less trivial.

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