Elemental Controls

[Gary]

Originally posted by Farkling

Show me an example of that which would be allowed in a game with AP caps.

 

Flight, force field, damage shield, change environment, and regeneration all at the same time.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

And how is that relevant to the argument in a game with AP caps?

 

Just pointing out that 240 pts is a ridiculous price for the choice of 5 60 pt attacks.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

At 120 Points I can purchase the 12d6 EB with a +1/2 Variable Advantage...and for another 120 Points I can do the same with a 4d6 RKA....and the "48d6 or 32d6 0 end" is still wildly more powerful.

 

Thank you for agreeing with me.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

You cannot argue "fairness" and "equal value" for points within the system and with the same breath use examples that violate the point caps we picture on the characters. That's a spurious argument.

 

Many campaigns allow increased DC's for specialists. For example, a character may be limited to 60 pts as a multipower, but is allowed 70 pts if he depends on a single attack such as 14d6 EB.

 

I see that your only criticism of my position is in a campaign with DC limits. Some campaigns don't have them.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

I fully admit that the 5 power (60) AP EC is more flexible and more bang for the buck than the 60d6 EB I could buy with the same points. But if the game allows a 60d6 EB, why the hell would I buy a 60 AP EC except for flavor powers? And for flavor powers I think PC's deserve a break.

 

Because EC's are generally used for defenses and movements. You still need those even in an unlimited campaign.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rene

But that is only a Limitation for Multipowers built with Focus. And even then the Focus will have a DEF equal to the Point Reserve, that is usually bigger than small powers built into separated Focus. Also, the same thing could be said of Elemental Control built with Focus.

 

 

 

 

That is only partially true. It's hard to quantify the value of versatily. 32 EB will do nothing against a Desolified Character, for instance, and could be resisted by a Mega-Villain with 75% Damage Reduction plus high Armor, and could be easily dodged by Spiderlad, etc.

 

Now Multipower-Man probably can whip out Drains to get the Mega-Villain, Flashes or even Affect Desolidied attacks to get the Ghost, Area Effects to get Spiderlad, and so on, and so on.

 

"Can't use all powers simultaneously" hardly constitutes a significant limitation when almost all players use Multipowers to get a bunch of powers that they couldn't frequently use simultaneously anyway.

 

BTW, I'm with Farkling. Multiple Frameworks in a single character almost always are bad.

 

Yeah, it's hard to quantify the value of versatility, but in the majority of encounters, 18d6 is better than the multipower. You'll get a situation where 75% of the time, the single power is better and 25% of the time, the multipower is a lot better. That seems to be a fair tradeoff in my book.

[Rene]

Originally posted by Gary

Yeah, it's hard to quantify the value of versatility, but in the majority of encounters, 18d6 is better than the multipower. You'll get a situation where 75% of the time, the single power is better and 25% of the time, the multipower is a lot better. That seems to be a fair tradeoff in my book.

 

Yes, but one can say Multipowers perhaps give a greater cost break than it should. AP/10 is dirty cheap for new powers.

 

For instance, many people think Naked Advantages are munchkinisms, but a Attack Multipower is more or less like a bunch of Naked Advantages you can apply to your attack.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Yeah, it's hard to quantify the value of versatility, but in the majority of encounters, 18d6 is better than the multipower. You'll get a situation where 75% of the time, the single power is better and 25% of the time, the multipower is a lot better. That seems to be a fair tradeoff in my book.

 

How many people out there have players with a Multipower with a ton of slots in it for different attacks? And how many have characters who have spend the same amount of points the multipower as a whole cost on a single attack power?

 

I guess none of them are as smart as you are, right, since you know that single 90 point attack would have been far better!

 

The fact is, versatility has value. It doesn't have value equal to its point cost in many cases, and that's why we get frameworks to tone the cost down in some cases.

 

EC's are also frameworks that tone the costs down in some cases. It's interesting to note that a Multipower tends to be used to buy multiple abilities of the same type (eg. attacks), while EC is generally used to buy multiple abilities of a variety of types (FREd even suggests the norm is an attack, a defense and a movement power). Two different structures, two different frameworks. Imagine that!

 

The fact is that all EC powers are generally not used at the same time. You cite the example of flight, force field, damage shield, change environment, and regeneration all at the same time. Ignoring the fact that I have seen very few Special Effects I would consider to justify Regeneration in an EC, and the fact no effect has been provided for these diverse examples, let's look at these powers:

 

(a) Regeneration is useless unless you have been struck for BOD. The force field will commonly prevent that. Regeneration isn't used every session in my experience, unless the character has taken it to compensate for very low defenses.

 

( How much regeneration? Is the character buying 3 points Regeneration just to have enough AP to fit in his 60 AP EC? Most characters, again unless built to take huge amounts of BOD stop at 1, or maybe 2, BOD regeneration.

 

© How often is that Change Environment useful? Depends on the actual change, I suppose, but as it impacts an area, some consideration of your allies will ikely reduce its utilization.

 

(d) Damage Aura traditionally means I want to be in HTH range with my opponents - go ahead and hit me, you'll take damage from my shields! Flight is commonly used to stay away from HTH attackers. Now, you can use flight to close with the guys further away, but the guys staying further away generally aren't doing that because their own powers are conducive to attacking you hand to hand.

 

Did the EC character get a point break for his powers that all fit tight to his special effects? Yep. Did the Multipower guy get a point break to buy vast versaitility? Yes as well.

 

Your hypothetical EC costs 180 points (300 under your rules). For the same price, I can forego the EC and buy a Multipower with +30/+30 force field, 30" flight and a 26d6 EB, with a 130 point pool. Note that these are standard, not ultra, slots. I have to sacrifice the change environment and the regeneration.

 

I can but the field up while using 30" of flight to get where I want to be. Then I can swap out to 5" flight (enough to stay aloft - 10 AP), keep my Force Field up (60 AP) and fire a 14d6 EB, a bit more than I would have had in the EC. If I want to, tactically, I can drop the field and strike for 24d6 (26d6 if I also land, or fall for a bit). hmmm...I can Reserve until the very end of Phase 11, then land on a roof and fire off 26d6, and abort in Ph 12 to put the field back up if I have to.

 

Now let's look at what I can do with the 300 points you want me to pay for the EC. First, we'll put the Regen and CE back, both as Multi slots, so I can use them if I want. We'll boost the field to +45/+45 for better defenses as well. We'll make the pool 190, but cap the EB at a paltry 36d6. Now IO can have 40/40 DEF, Fly 5" and fire off a 20d6 EB all at the same time. Not bad. By the way, if you've done the math, this multi only cost 280 points. The other 20 increased my END battery by 200 so I can afford to do all this stuff!

 

Meanwhile, EC Man has all the powers I do. he can regenerate (when he doesn't need to) and fly faster in combat (advantageous, but I can match his speed should the need arise) but I have better DEF and a much stronger attack in "standard configuration", and I can match anything he can do should the need arise. And I saved 20 points for extra END!

 

While EC Man is busy showing off his 300 points spent on his various abilities, I'll fire off my 36d6 EB at the end pof phase 11 and wait to abort to my +45/+45 FF in phase 12 when he counterattacks.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

How many people out there have players with a Multipower with a ton of slots in it for different attacks? And how many have characters who have spend the same amount of points the multipower as a whole cost on a single attack power?

 

I guess none of them are as smart as you are, right, since you know that single 90 point attack would have been far better!

 

The fact is, versatility has value. It doesn't have value equal to its point cost in many cases, and that's why we get frameworks to tone the cost down in some cases.

 

Hooboy, are you actually denying that the 90 point power would be more useful most of the time? A 12d6 EB does 17 pts of stun, 5" knockback (which would average 0 damage on a solid hit), and has a 13.76% chance of stunning the average 25 def 23 con target. The 18d6 EB does 38 stun, 11" knockback (which would do 13.5 more stun on a solid hit), and has a 97.77% chance of stunning the same 25 def 23 con target. The values are equivalent since the 18d6 has an advantage most of the time, but some of the time he's totally screwed. Just like a guy with 18d6 bought through an OIF has the advantage most of the time over a 12d6 natural EB, but would be screwed part of the time when his focus is taken away. This is basic stuff here, not rocket science.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

EC's are also frameworks that tone the costs down in some cases. It's interesting to note that a Multipower tends to be used to buy multiple abilities of the same type (eg. attacks), while EC is generally used to buy multiple abilities of a variety of types (FREd even suggests the norm is an attack, a defense and a movement power). Two different structures, two different frameworks. Imagine that!

 

The fact is that all EC powers are generally not used at the same time. You cite the example of flight, force field, damage shield, change environment, and regeneration all at the same time. Ignoring the fact that I have seen very few Special Effects I would consider to justify Regeneration in an EC, and the fact no effect has been provided for these diverse examples, let's look at these powers:

 

EC light powers. Flight, force field, change environment, and damage shield is obvious. Regen is because he can turn into light, and the light coalesces.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

(a) Regeneration is useless unless you have been struck for BOD. The force field will commonly prevent that. Regeneration isn't used every session in my experience, unless the character has taken it to compensate for very low defenses.

 

( How much regeneration? Is the character buying 3 points Regeneration just to have enough AP to fit in his 60 AP EC? Most characters, again unless built to take huge amounts of BOD stop at 1, or maybe 2, BOD regeneration.

 

Yeah, regen is useless unless you've taken body. Does that mean that it's worthless? You can describe that to everything. Defenses are worthless unless struck by an attack! The fact is that most powers have some triggering condition to make them useful.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

© How often is that Change Environment useful? Depends on the actual change, I suppose, but as it impacts an area, some consideration of your allies will ikely reduce its utilization.

 

Change environment also has tremendous noncombat uses in many cases.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

(d) Damage Aura traditionally means I want to be in HTH range with my opponents - go ahead and hit me, you'll take damage from my shields! Flight is commonly used to stay away from HTH attackers. Now, you can use flight to close with the guys further away, but the guys staying further away generally aren't doing that because their own powers are conducive to attacking you hand to hand.

 

Did the EC character get a point break for his powers that all fit tight to his special effects? Yep. Did the Multipower guy get a point break to buy vast versaitility? Yes as well.

 

Your hypothetical EC costs 180 points (300 under your rules). For the same price, I can forego the EC and buy a Multipower with +30/+30 force field, 30" flight and a 26d6 EB, with a 130 point pool. Note that these are standard, not ultra, slots. I have to sacrifice the change environment and the regeneration.

 

I can but the field up while using 30" of flight to get where I want to be. Then I can swap out to 5" flight (enough to stay aloft - 10 AP), keep my Force Field up (60 AP) and fire a 14d6 EB, a bit more than I would have had in the EC. If I want to, tactically, I can drop the field and strike for 24d6 (26d6 if I also land, or fall for a bit). hmmm...I can Reserve until the very end of Phase 11, then land on a roof and fire off 26d6, and abort in Ph 12 to put the field back up if I have to.

 

Now let's look at what I can do with the 300 points you want me to pay for the EC. First, we'll put the Regen and CE back, both as Multi slots, so I can use them if I want. We'll boost the field to +45/+45 for better defenses as well. We'll make the pool 190, but cap the EB at a paltry 36d6. Now IO can have 40/40 DEF, Fly 5" and fire off a 20d6 EB all at the same time. Not bad. By the way, if you've done the math, this multi only cost 280 points. The other 20 increased my END battery by 200 so I can afford to do all this stuff!

 

Meanwhile, EC Man has all the powers I do. he can regenerate (when he doesn't need to) and fly faster in combat (advantageous, but I can match his speed should the need arise) but I have better DEF and a much stronger attack in "standard configuration", and I can match anything he can do should the need arise. And I saved 20 points for extra END!

 

While EC Man is busy showing off his 300 points spent on his various abilities, I'll fire off my 36d6 EB at the end pof phase 11 and wait to abort to my +45/+45 FF in phase 12 when he counterattacks.

 

I'm sorry you've taken such a ridiculous 300 pt EC as your example. Here's a more realistic EC likely to be used in an actual character:

 

20 EC light powers

20 16" flight 1/2 end

20 16pd 16 ed 1/2 end force field

8 2 body regen extra time 1 turn (-1) self only (-1/2)

14 3d6 flash damage shield (+1/2) continuous (+1) can be used offensively (+1/4) 4 charges of 1 turn (-1/2)

 

I'll leave off the change environment since it's hard to quantify its value especially considering its noncombat value.

 

That's 82 pts. For that cost, you would normally just get the flight and force field which you would most likely purchase anyway. Instead, you're getting 2 very useful abilities, regen and damage shield, for free.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Hooboy, are you actually denying that the 90 point power would be more useful most of the time? A 12d6 EB does 17 pts of stun, 5" knockback (which would average 0 damage on a solid hit), and has a 13.76% chance of stunning the average 25 def 23 con target. The 18d6 EB does 38 stun, 11" knockback (which would do 13.5 more stun on a solid hit), and has a 97.77% chance of stunning the same 25 def 23 con target. The values are equivalent since the 18d6 has an advantage most of the time, but some of the time he's totally screwed. Just like a guy with 18d6 bought through an OIF has the advantage most of the time over a 12d6 natural EB, but would be screwed part of the time when his focus is taken away. This is basic stuff here, not rocket science.

 

Once again, the question: What percentage of players want an 18d6 attack, and what percentage want more versatility.

 

Yeah, you can win faster with the 18d6 attack in many cases. It is "more useful" in those, and I'll guve you that will be most of the time. But is it critical? Generally, no - you wouldn't have lost hands down with 12d6 and some versatility instead. However, when the 18d6 EB is useless, you'll be wishing some of those past fights were closer if it meant you'd have something useful in this fight.

 

As Farkling notes, DC or AP caps cover this off nicely.

 

In any case, assuming you are correct, why would the EC you cite below be purchased instead of just using the points to top up that one big attack?

 

Originally posted by Gary

EC light powers. Flight, force field, change environment, and damage shield is obvious. Regen is because he can turn into light, and the light coalesces.

 

Ahhh...but you aren't desolid when you turn into light? Or does this shut out your other powers? It's a stretch in any case, but some GM's may allow it, so let's leave it.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Yeah, regen is useless unless you've taken body. Does that mean that it's worthless? You can describe that to everything. Defenses are worthless unless struck by an attack! The fact is that most powers have some triggering condition to make them useful.

 

Change environment also has tremendous noncombat uses in many cases.

 

First you tell us the EC is overpowered because the character can use all these powers at once. Then you tell us that he doesn't need to use them all at once. Which one is it?

 

Sure, it's nice to have some abilities that work well in combat and others that help a lot noncombat. A multipower is a way more effective point savings for them, though. You won't be using your combvat powers and your noncombat powers at the same time, so why not add powers for 1/5 to 1/10 their cost, rather than 1/2? Now THAT's basic math!

 

Originally posted by Gary

I'm sorry you've taken such a ridiculous 300 pt EC as your example. Here's a more realistic EC likely to be used in an actual character:

 

20 EC light powers

20 16" flight 1/2 end

20 16pd 16 ed 1/2 end force field

8 2 body regen extra time 1 turn (-1) self only (-1/2)

14 3d6 flash damage shield (+1/2) continuous (+1) can be used offensively (+1/4) 4 charges of 1 turn (-1/2)

 

The 300 pt EC comes from some prior poster - I'm not sure who and I won't wade through 9 pages to find it, but Farkling quotes whoever it was a little lower.

 

You're buying the fluff powers, though, so let's look at that. Let's assume for simplicity that LightGuy and MultiGuy both have a 12d6 EB attack, and the same DEF, except that MultiGuy needs another 16/16 resistant to match your force field. [We'll ignore the question of why a natural flash shield would have 4 1 turn charges for the sake of discussion.]

 

Originally posted by Gary

That's 82 pts. For that cost, you would normally just get the flight and force field which you would most likely purchase anyway. Instead, you're getting 2 very useful abilities, regen and damage shield, for free.

 

MutiGuy has 82 points to play with given the above EC, and another 40 if we assume EC's are not available. I could just buy Flight and Foce Field, but the point is tocompare EC and Multipower. So I think I'll buy a Multipower instead, using the same 82 points. It could look like this:

 

53 Pool

 

8 m 16" Flight 1/2 END

8 m 16/16 F Field 1/2 END

3 m 2 BOD Regen

10 m +10d6 EB

 

82 points total

 

I can fly as fast as you. I can have a 22d6 EB, where you are limited to 12 (only works if the EB is not in another framework, of course). I can regenerate should the need arise. And I have the field. I could be a lot more flexible if I threw the whole EB in the MP, but let's not overcomplicate matters. [Farkling, I'm starting to be sold on an "all in" MP here...]

 

Now, in combat, I'll want the field up, I can float with 1" of flight and still do 2d6 more EB than you can. But you can move quicker. I think we're about equal, though I did have to forego the damage shield.

 

What about this pool?

 

48 Pool

 

8 m 16" Flight 1/2 END

8 m 16/16 F Field 1/2 END

3 m 2 BOD Regen

9 m +9d6 EB

5 m Mystery Power Slot

 

81

 

hmmm...I have a point left over. I'll buy +2 COM so I get better press coverage than you

 

Now, I'll generally put my force field up, and leave the remaining points to fly (although I could hover and still get +1d6. Oh, and as soon as your Damage Shield goes up, I'll reserve to the end of a segment, drop my field for flight, half move into physical range, and shift to Mystery Slot. It's 8 Flash DEF force field + 4d6 Drain Sight Flash Def (Ultra). You should be blind for the next turn or so - I don't anticipate having much trouble taking you out now...

 

Obviously, having such an obvious counterpower is pretty unlikely, but I can have a cute trick like the damage shield.

 

WHO HAS THE ADVANTAGE?: Debateable. EC can use his powers all at once and I can't. But I can boost my powers more than he can. [ignore the Flash Def Drain - the odds of clean KO powers meeting is negligible]

 

Now let's delete the EC discount, as you propose. For "the Character formerly known as EC Guy" to keep all his powers, he must have another 40 points. So I should get the same to keep it comparable. I could add these straight to my EB, and have 20d6, but let's keep with the MP. And let's keep it simple - I won't use those extra points to buy 8 new Ultra, or 4 new Flex slots. I'll just do this:

 

80 Pool

 

8 m 16" Flight 1/2 END

16 m 32/32 F Field 1/2 END

3 m 2 BOD Regen

15 m +15d6 EB

 

122

 

Still no fluffy powers, but I could always reduce the pool, I suppose, and add some. But I can:

 

- match your defense and airspeed.

- forget airspeed and crank my defenses another 16 points - how useful is your 12 die blast now?

- Hover (5), match your field (40) and add 7d6 to my EB.

- reserve until DEX 1 Ph 11, hover, hit you with 27d6 and abort Ph 12 to reactivate my field assuming you can still fire back after a 27d6 hit (tell you what, I'll make it 24d6 and use the extra 3 to spread for OCV...)

 

Now there seems to be a pretty clear advantage...and all because you took away EC Guy's point savings and didn't similarly restrict MultiPower Man.

 

Let's also remember that I made these MP's up on the fly. They aren't tweaked to maximize effectiveness (I assume your EC is the same, so no one has an advantage here either, although I wonder whether you pulled the EC from an existing character given that creative regen power).

[Agent X]

Blah blah blah

 

You can crunch numbers all day and you still can't explain to me why in my 12 years of Hero gaming I haven't seen EC characters lord it over everyone else.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Once again, the question: What percentage of players want an 18d6 attack, and what percentage want more versatility.

 

Yeah, you can win faster with the 18d6 attack in many cases. It is "more useful" in those, and I'll guve you that will be most of the time. But is it critical? Generally, no - you wouldn't have lost hands down with 12d6 and some versatility instead. However, when the 18d6 EB is useless, you'll be wishing some of those past fights were closer if it meant you'd have something useful in this fight.

 

As Farkling notes, DC or AP caps cover this off nicely.

 

In any case, assuming you are correct, why would the EC you cite below be purchased instead of just using the points to top up that one big attack?

 

Because I happen to like movements and defenses? Anyway people do buy stuff through foci, knowing that there will be times when you're completely helpless. This would be no different.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Ahhh...but you aren't desolid when you turn into light? Or does this shut out your other powers? It's a stretch in any case, but some GM's may allow it, so let's leave it.

 

Or I could be made of solid light.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

First you tell us the EC is overpowered because the character can use all these powers at once. Then you tell us that he doesn't need to use them all at once. Which one is it?

 

Sure, it's nice to have some abilities that work well in combat and others that help a lot noncombat. A multipower is a way more effective point savings for them, though. You won't be using your combvat powers and your noncombat powers at the same time, so why not add powers for 1/5 to 1/10 their cost, rather than 1/2? Now THAT's basic math!

 

Change environment is very weird. It has both combat and noncombat uses, and it's extremely nice being able to use it in addition to your normal attacks.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The 300 pt EC comes from some prior poster - I'm not sure who and I won't wade through 9 pages to find it, but Farkling quotes whoever it was a little lower.

 

You're buying the fluff powers, though, so let's look at that. Let's assume for simplicity that LightGuy and MultiGuy both have a 12d6 EB attack, and the same DEF, except that MultiGuy needs another 16/16 resistant to match your force field. [We'll ignore the question of why a natural flash shield would have 4 1 turn charges for the sake of discussion.]

 

No more weird than Icicle having 4 charges on her icy force wall.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

MutiGuy has 82 points to play with given the above EC, and another 40 if we assume EC's are not available. I could just buy Flight and Foce Field, but the point is tocompare EC and Multipower. So I think I'll buy a Multipower instead, using the same 82 points. It could look like this:

 

53 Pool

 

8 m 16" Flight 1/2 END

8 m 16/16 F Field 1/2 END

3 m 2 BOD Regen

10 m +10d6 EB

 

82 points total

 

I can fly as fast as you. I can have a 22d6 EB, where you are limited to 12 (only works if the EB is not in another framework, of course). I can regenerate should the need arise. And I have the field. I could be a lot more flexible if I threw the whole EB in the MP, but let's not overcomplicate matters. [Farkling, I'm starting to be sold on an "all in" MP here...]

 

Now, in combat, I'll want the field up, I can float with 1" of flight and still do 2d6 more EB than you can. But you can move quicker. I think we're about equal, though I did have to forego the damage shield.

 

You're not comparing apples to apples. My regen works even when I'm unconscious. Very useful if I'm knocked out and bleeding to death. Your regen only works while unconscious if you happen to have 40 active points tied up in it when hit. And you're missing the damage shield, which is extremely useful if you're a melee fighter or if struck by a melee fighter. Having your enemy have 1/2 DCV everytime after being struck or after striking you is quite nice. To have both abilities separate and thus compare apples to apples, costs you 16 pts for regen and 27 pts for damage shield. That leaves you with 39 pts for your multipower which means:

 

28 Pool

6 m 11" flight 1/2 end

6 m 11/11 FF 1/2 end.

 

I'd say EC guy is far ahead. Incidentally, the Q&A strongly recommends against adding direct dice to a slot of a framework.

 

Q: The rules on 5E 208 discuss extra powers for a slot. The example given is an Energy Blast that has an outside-the-Multipower Flash accompanying it, bought with Linked. Would it be possible to just buy extra dice of Energy Blast, to make the EB more powerful?

 

A: Yes, that’s possible - unless the GM forbids it, which he should unless there’s some valid reason for buying the power that way.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

What about this pool?

 

48 Pool

 

8 m 16" Flight 1/2 END

8 m 16/16 F Field 1/2 END

3 m 2 BOD Regen

9 m +9d6 EB

5 m Mystery Power Slot

 

81

 

hmmm...I have a point left over. I'll buy +2 COM so I get better press coverage than you

 

Now, I'll generally put my force field up, and leave the remaining points to fly (although I could hover and still get +1d6. Oh, and as soon as your Damage Shield goes up, I'll reserve to the end of a segment, drop my field for flight, half move into physical range, and shift to Mystery Slot. It's 8 Flash DEF force field + 4d6 Drain Sight Flash Def (Ultra). You should be blind for the next turn or so - I don't anticipate having much trouble taking you out now...

 

Obviously, having such an obvious counterpower is pretty unlikely, but I can have a cute trick like the damage shield.

 

Except that if you use your cute trick, you're not flying and don't have any defense up.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

WHO HAS THE ADVANTAGE?: Debateable. EC can use his powers all at once and I can't. But I can boost my powers more than he can. [ignore the Flash Def Drain - the odds of clean KO powers meeting is negligible]

 

EC guy has the huge advantage after you make the appropriate adjustments.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Now let's delete the EC discount, as you propose. For "the Character formerly known as EC Guy" to keep all his powers, he must have another 40 points. So I should get the same to keep it comparable. I could add these straight to my EB, and have 20d6, but let's keep with the MP. And let's keep it simple - I won't use those extra points to buy 8 new Ultra, or 4 new Flex slots. I'll just do this:

 

80 Pool

 

8 m 16" Flight 1/2 END

16 m 32/32 F Field 1/2 END

3 m 2 BOD Regen

15 m +15d6 EB

 

122

 

Still no fluffy powers, but I could always reduce the pool, I suppose, and add some. But I can:

 

- match your defense and airspeed.

- forget airspeed and crank my defenses another 16 points - how useful is your 12 die blast now?

- Hover (5), match your field (40) and add 7d6 to my EB.

- reserve until DEX 1 Ph 11, hover, hit you with 27d6 and abort Ph 12 to reactivate my field assuming you can still fire back after a 27d6 hit (tell you what, I'll make it 24d6 and use the extra 3 to spread for OCV...)

 

Now there seems to be a pretty clear advantage...and all because you took away EC Guy's point savings and didn't similarly restrict MultiPower Man.

 

Let's also remember that I made these MP's up on the fly. They aren't tweaked to maximize effectiveness (I assume your EC is the same, so no one has an advantage here either, although I wonder whether you pulled the EC from an existing character given that creative regen power).

 

After you make the appropriate adjustments (buying the damage shield and regen separately), you have 80 pts left over. You can buy the following:

 

57 pool

11 m 23" flight 1/2 end

11 m 23/23 FF 1/2 end

 

Which is better? It's pretty even. Both of us have the same regen and damage shield, but I have the ability to have 80 pts of effect up at once. I can have both 16" flight, and 16/16 FF up at the same time, while if you have 16" flight, you can only have 7/7 FF and vice versa. However, you have the flexibility of maxing your def or flight if necessary.

 

I reject the extra EB dice in the multipower since the Q&A clearly seems to imply that this is a GM permission power, the same way as adding a 0 end power to a EC would be.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X

Blah blah blah

 

You can crunch numbers all day and you still can't explain to me why in my 12 years of Hero gaming I haven't seen EC characters lord it over everyone else.

 

But Hugh and I like to crunch numbers. Don't spoil our fun.

 

The most efficient character designs in my experience are the brick with 10 pts of martial arts, and the person with multipower or vpp attacks and EC movements and defenses.

[Agent X]

I had a character who had a really nice vehicle along with a MPP that rocked. I had a character who had a big force field and series of powers linked to the force field that proved mighty. There's a bunch of nifty ways to go. Most character concepts are best served with ECs and MPPs but I'm not sure that makes them more effective ways to build. I'm not big on the 10 pt. martial art trick with bricks as it encourages a very dull fighting style. I prefer skill levels to martial arts with my bricks for greater versatility.

[Farkling]

/QUOTE/

The most efficient character designs in my experience are the brick with 10 pts of martial arts, and the person with multipower or vpp attacks and EC movements and defenses.

/ENDQUOTE/

 

Yeah...the 10pt MA brick is efficient. I'm still working on counteractions for that. Meanwhile, the evil bricks are getting M.A. packages too.

Today's GM Question for input:: Just what CAN'T Martial Escape STR be used against?

 

As to the attack Mpower and EC/VPP Move/Defend ... That is pure metagaming in my mind, even IF the "Implementors" do it. They are violating the spirit of their own rules...but it says in the back of the book this is acceptable, so I have no ground to stand on over it.

 

EC Defense Powers or EC: Movement is expressly discouraged in the system explanations...so dressing it up and calling it EC::MegaPortation isn't going to trick me. I want a full suite of powers in the EC. Three is the minimum, five is preferred. You want the flexibilty of a Multipower, then buy an Attack in the EC and put Variable Advantage on it. In play, this will let MPower Guy retain some higher powered atack than EC Guy...but EC guy will have an attack or two equivalent or better than MPower guy. It's waaay more honest in my eyes than the Attack Multipower+EC/VPP Defense/Move point-whoring.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Farkling

/QUOTE/

The most efficient character designs in my experience are the brick with 10 pts of martial arts, and the person with multipower or vpp attacks and EC movements and defenses.

/ENDQUOTE/

 

Yeah...the 10pt MA brick is efficient. I'm still working on counteractions for that. Meanwhile, the evil bricks are getting M.A. packages too.

Today's GM Question for input:: Just what CAN'T Martial Escape STR be used against?

 

As to the attack Mpower and EC/VPP Move/Defend ... That is pure metagaming in my mind, even IF the "Implementors" do it. They are violating the spirit of their own rules...but it says in the back of the book this is acceptable, so I have no ground to stand on over it.

 

EC Defense Powers or EC: Movement is expressly discouraged in the system explanations...so dressing it up and calling it EC::MegaPortation isn't going to trick me. I want a full suite of powers in the EC. Three is the minimum, five is preferred. You want the flexibilty of a Multipower, then buy an Attack in the EC and put Variable Advantage on it. In play, this will let MPower Guy retain some higher powered atack than EC Guy...but EC guy will have an attack or two equivalent or better than MPower guy. It's waaay more honest in my eyes than the Attack Multipower+EC/VPP Defense/Move point-whoring.

Dressing it up? Attacks are actions. Defenses usually aren't. Movement are actions that most characters can take while they attack.

 

Let's reason to effect shall we? I want to design a character with electrical powers who can fly, has a force field, a damage shield, and has a variety of electrical attacks. Hmmm, I know! I'll build a character that has an electrical elemental control with flight, force field, and a damage shield in it. For my attacks I'll buy a multipower with about 6 different slots. Now, I can have my movement, force field, and damage shield going just like in the comic books and I can still attack... just like in the comic books.

 

Honestly, your ban seems fairly arbitrary to me. I suppose you would make many published characters illegal in your game.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

You're not comparing apples to apples. My regen works even when I'm unconscious. Very useful if I'm knocked out and bleeding to death. Your regen only works while unconscious if you happen to have 40 active points tied up in it when hit. And you're missing the damage shield, which is extremely useful if you're a melee fighter or if struck by a melee fighter. Having your enemy have 1/2 DCV everytime after being struck or after striking you is quite nice. To have both abilities separate and thus compare apples to apples, costs you 16 pts for regen and 27 pts for damage shield. That leaves you with 39 pts for your multipower which means:

 

Regen: I can shift to it if I take BOD. I think the odds of moving from full BOD to negative BOD in one shot is limited enough that it's not a severe limit. It is a limit, though.

 

The damage sheild? Sure. If your opponent decides to fight hand to hand. My character doesn't have it, so he won't stand there and get smacked around - he'll gain altitude instead. Even if I want the DA, I can put it in a multipower.

Originally posted by Gary

Q: The rules on 5E 208 discuss extra powers for a slot. The example given is an Energy Blast that has an outside-the-Multipower Flash accompanying it, bought with Linked. Would it be possible to just buy extra dice of Energy Blast, to make the EB more powerful?

 

A: Yes, that’s possible - unless the GM forbids it, which he should unless there’s some valid reason for buying the power that way.

 

The "valid reason" is channelling more energy to the EB through the multipower. It's no less valid than regen because you're coalescing light. If it bothers you that much, though, we can put the EB in the Multi as a whole, and have a huge pool, with even more choices. By the way, he didn't say "this should generally not be allowed" (such as, say, Duplicates with Duplication), he says "unless the GM forbids it". EC's are also allowed "unless the GM forbids it", which IMO he should if the power doesn't link to the special effects stringly enough.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Except that if you use your cute trick, you're not flying and don't have any defense up.

 

No, I'd probably have to stuff the EB in there as well (and you can save 20 by stuffing yours in the EC, of course).

 

Cutting to the chase, the fact is that the Multi Guy has an advantage in versatility, while EC holds the advantage in being able to use everything at once. But take away the EC point break, and Multi-Guy gets far more versatile on the same points, toasting your advantage.

 

After you make the appropriate adjustments (buying the damage shield and regen separately), you have 80 pts left over. You can buy the following:

 

[/b]

I reject the extra EB dice in the multipower since the Q&A clearly seems to imply that this is a GM permission power, the same way as adding a 0 end power to a EC would be.[/b]

 

Then I reject your Light special effect for your regeneration being close enough tied to Light special effects. We can play that game all day.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Agent X

Blah blah blah

 

You can crunch numbers all day and you still can't explain to me why in my 12 years of Hero gaming I haven't seen EC characters lord it over everyone else.

 

BINGO!!!

 

The number crunching we've done above, in my opinion, shows that we get an EC and a Multipower character who are pretty close. One has the advantage in being able to do all these things at once. The other has the advantage in being able to access more flexibility.

 

Take away the EC cost break, however, and Multi-Man will walk all over the guy buying all his powers independently with no point breaks.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Regen: I can shift to it if I take BOD. I think the odds of moving from full BOD to negative BOD in one shot is limited enough that it's not a severe limit. It is a limit, though.

 

How about the situation where you get stunned for con, and the next segment after the FF drops, an area effect or explosive killing attack strikes the area? This has happened to me before. And if you take a bunch of body, that’s a bunch of turns that your MP is tied up. If I’m attacked in that time period, I’m regenerating. If you’re attacked, you’re spending your MP points on flight and FF. You do not have 40 points to waste in your MP. So yeah, I consider this a severe limitation for you and a comparison of apples and oranges if you don’t take this into account.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The damage sheild? Sure. If your opponent decides to fight hand to hand. My character doesn't have it, so he won't stand there and get smacked around - he'll gain altitude instead. Even if I want the DA, I can put it in a multipower.

 

You’ve got to do better than this. You’re depending on not getting hit in HTH as justification for not being disadvantaged compared to EC lad? Using that justification, I could buy down my body and stun down to 1 by saying that my game plan is not to ever be hit. Have you ever considered that your opponents might not cooperate with your game plan?

 

With my damage shield, if a HTH combatant hits me or if I have a HTH attack, my opponent becomes ½ OCV and ½ DCV to me and my teammates. If they hit you, they can fight at full effectiveness. If you ignore the DS, then you’re comparing apples to oranges again. And if you stick the DS in the multipower, you’re tying up 41 pts, which means you have a lot less flight and FF, a major disadvantage.

 

Please compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The "valid reason" is channelling more energy to the EB through the multipower. It's no less valid than regen because you're coalescing light. If it bothers you that much, though, we can put the EB in the Multi as a whole, and have a huge pool, with even more choices. By the way, he didn't say "this should generally not be allowed" (such as, say, Duplicates with Duplication), he says "unless the GM forbids it". EC's are also allowed "unless the GM forbids it", which IMO he should if the power doesn't link to the special effects stringly enough.

 

Steve Long’s language was unless the GM forbids it, which he should. This is GM permission language to me. Another Q&A clarified that Steve only intended extra dice to be added to a MP if the extra dice are limited in some way such as with Pulsar’s 8d6 EB + 4d6 2xEnd + 4d6 3xEnd, etc.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

No, I'd probably have to stuff the EB in there as well (and you can save 20 by stuffing yours in the EC, of course).

 

Cutting to the chase, the fact is that the Multi Guy has an advantage in versatility, while EC holds the advantage in being able to use everything at once. But take away the EC point break, and Multi-Guy gets far more versatile on the same points, toasting your advantage.

 

Only if you compare apples to oranges. If you make the proper comparison, then EC guy wipes the floor with MP guy.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Then I reject your Light special effect for your regeneration being close enough tied to Light special effects. We can play that game all day.

 

Nope, Steve specifically said that regen was ok for a EC because the base power, healing, cost End normally. He specifically recommended against extra dice linked to a MP. There’s a big difference between that.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

BINGO!!!

 

The number crunching we've done above, in my opinion, shows that we get an EC and a Multipower character who are pretty close. One has the advantage in being able to do all these things at once. The other has the advantage in being able to access more flexibility.

 

Take away the EC cost break, however, and Multi-Man will walk all over the guy buying all his powers independently with no point breaks.

 

Only with your apples and oranges comparison.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

How about the situation where you get stunned for con, and the next segment after the FF drops, an area effect or explosive killing attack strikes the area? This has happened to me before. And if you take a bunch of body, that’s a bunch of turns that your MP is tied up. If I’m attacked in that time period, I’m regenerating. If you’re attacked, you’re spending your MP points on flight and FF. You do not have 40 points to waste in your MP. So yeah, I consider this a severe limitation for you and a comparison of apples and oranges if you don’t take this into account.

 

I don't consider this a "all the time" situation. It is a possibility, which is why MultiGuy and EC Guy are about equal IF Ec Guy gets his discount.

 

It's a comparison of EC to Multipower, remember? They won;t both work identically. There are tradeoffs.

 

Originally posted by Gary

You’ve got to do better than this. You’re depending on not getting hit in HTH as justification for not being disadvantaged compared to EC lad? Using that justification, I could buy down my body and stun down to 1 by saying that my game plan is not to ever be hit. Have you ever considered that your opponents might not cooperate with your game plan?

 

With my damage shield, if a HTH combatant hits me or if I have a HTH attack, my opponent becomes ½ OCV and ½ DCV to me and my teammates. If they hit you, they can fight at full effectiveness. If you ignore the DS, then you’re comparing apples to oranges again. And if you stick the DS in the multipower, you’re tying up 41 pts, which means you have a lot less flight and FF, a major disadvantage.

 

Your first contention was that EC Guy's big advantage is to have all these powers available at once. You then provide Flight and a Damage Aura. Flight in combat keeps you out of HTH. Damage Aura only works if you are in HTH. "In HTH": Apple. "Not in HTH" Orange.

 

If EC provides a cost break, the MP Guy must choose between the two - so EC guy hjas an advantage in this regard. If the EC goes, EC Guy pays full rates ofr both powers. With those extra points, MP Guy can boost the MP base enough to have Force Field and Damage Aura on at the same time, shifting the MP after landing in HTH range.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Steve Long’s language was unless the GM forbids it, which he should. This is GM permission language to me. Another Q&A clarified that Steve only intended extra dice to be added to a MP if the extra dice are limited in some way such as with Pulsar’s 8d6 EB + 4d6 2xEnd + 4d6 3xEnd, etc.

 

I note you cut the quote off right before the "unless it is justified well" statement. Unless I can justify any of my character's powers, the GM has every right to disallow them.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Nope, Steve specifically said that regen was ok for a EC because the base power, healing, cost End normally. He specifically recommended against extra dice linked to a MP. There’s a big difference between that.

 

Please quote me saying Regen is not a legit EC power? I said I don't buy the power as legit in YOUR EXAMPLE EC because I find the "Coalescing Light" special effect to be strectching the SFX.

 

This, and your mangle of Steve's comments on "extra dice in MP", indicate to me that you don't actually read the full statement, just pull those portions that may support your case.

 

What I'm hearing from other posters is that they don't find their campaigns overrun by overpowered EC characters. I don't either. I believe that is because the EC point break is not the unbalancing monster you make it out to be. Simple as that. YMMV

[Agent X]

More blah. The game works guys. This is what I would like addressed. Can anyone honestly say that the characters in the books, with all the different framework strategies, necessarily are imbalanced?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I don't consider this a "all the time" situation. It is a possibility, which is why MultiGuy and EC Guy are about equal IF Ec Guy gets his discount.

 

I disagree, it’s fairly common from what I’ve seen that people with FF’s get stunned for con or knocked out, and are in battle with enemies who have area effects or explosions, or who want to make sure that an enemy stays unconscious.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

It's a comparison of EC to Multipower, remember? They won;t both work identically. There are tradeoffs.

 

 

 

Your first contention was that EC Guy's big advantage is to have all these powers available at once. You then provide Flight and a Damage Aura. Flight in combat keeps you out of HTH. Damage Aura only works if you are in HTH. "In HTH": Apple. "Not in HTH" Orange.

 

If EC provides a cost break, the MP Guy must choose between the two - so EC guy hjas an advantage in this regard. If the EC goes, EC Guy pays full rates ofr both powers. With those extra points, MP Guy can boost the MP base enough to have Force Field and Damage Aura on at the same time, shifting the MP after landing in HTH range..

 

Ha ha ha. Roflmao. This is too funny. I would love to play in your campaign where buying a few inches of flight makes you immune to HTH attacks. You never had a MA, brick, or speedster in your campaign with flight, gliding, swinging, superleap, teleportation, vehicle, or have a teammate that could provide transport to the EB guy??? By not paying points for the DS, you’re conceding a major advantage to the EC guy and thus it’s an apples to oranges comparison.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I note you cut the quote off right before the "unless it is justified well" statement. Unless I can justify any of my character's powers, the GM has every right to disallow them.

 

This is ridiculous. The GM has the right to disallow anything if it can't be justified. He can disallow EB or flight if he chooses. However, EB and flight don't have a specific caution by Steve against their usage, unlike extra dice of EB outside a MP which does have a specific caution against it.

 

Here is another Q&A:

 

Q: Can a character have a power outside a Multipower or Elemental Control that adds to or “stacks with†a slot in the Framework? For example, if a character has a Multipower with an EB 12d6 slot, could he buy EB +8d6, or a Drain DEX, defined as adding to that slot?

 

A: Yes, as follows. There are two situations involved in this sort of thing. One is the situation in which a character simply buys extra dice of the same power to add to a Framework slot. Typically this is done because there’s some modifier on the extra dice that doesn’t apply to the base dice in the Framework. For example, a character might have extra dice that cost x10 END and take a Full Phase to create an “extended Push.†In this case, the extra dice are simply an extension of the power and would be expressed something like this: EB +6d6 [insert appropriate Modifiers]. The + sign is important - it signifies that the power is merely an extension of an existing power. It cannot function on its own, and being all part of the one power, cannot take the Linked Limitation. A good example of this, though not one specifically involving a Multipower, is the power that Pulsar buys on 5E 180.

The other circumstance involves a completely different power bought to work in conjunction with a Multipower slot - as with the example on 5E 208, regarding Starburst’s EB-Flash combo. That sort of thing does normally qualify for the Linked Limitation, because it’s not just an extension of the base power. It’s two different powers, working together.

 

Combined with the first Q&A, it clearly implies that Steve considers the extra dice outside the MP to be if there are additional limits that make those extra dice differ from the dice inside the MP. Dice outside a MP are different from dice inside a MP in Steve Long's eyes.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Please quote me saying Regen is not a legit EC power? I said I don't buy the power as legit in YOUR EXAMPLE EC because I find the "Coalescing Light" special effect to be strectching the SFX.

 

Ah, now we get to the subjective GM calls about what is allowed in a EC or not. Of course you would disagree with it, because you want to win the point.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

This, and your mangle of Steve's comments on "extra dice in MP", indicate to me that you don't actually read the full statement, just pull those portions that may support your case.

 

What I'm hearing from other posters is that they don't find their campaigns overrun by overpowered EC characters. I don't either. I believe that is because the EC point break is not the unbalancing monster you make it out to be. Simple as that. YMMV

 

And what about the fact that you absolutely refuse to make an apples to apples comparison?

 

Please read both Q&A together.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Gary

There is a viable alternative. Simply give the related powers the limitation that it's actually worth. If you have a set of powers, give either a -1/4 or -1/2 limitation that to drain one drains all. To the extent that you give more points than this limitation, it is free points.

 

In that spirit, I'd argue that the control cost for VPPs should be at least the cost of the pool itself (instead of half) and MPs slots should be -1 for variable and -2 for ultra.

 

But it's your game of course and to be fair and honest, it's not like I'd refuse to play in a game because they messed around with ECs. However uninformed and foolish such a decision would be. (I am really kidding on that last line)

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Gary

I disagree, it’s fairly common from what I’ve seen that people with FF’s get stunned for con or knocked out, and are in battle with enemies who have area effects or explosions, or who want to make sure that an enemy stays unconscious.

 

The regeneration takes 1 turn to get 1 BODY. I've never been in a situation where 1 BODY per turn had a serious effect on combat. And unless I read the rules wrong, both the powers in EC and MP would go out when the character is stunned or KO'd - the exception being the Regeneration, which is specifically bought as persistant. Anyone's FF goes down, they're pretty much a target of opportunity IMO. Unless both have big defenses, the regenerate body doesn't do much for negative stun.

 

 

Ha ha ha. Roflmao. This is too funny. I would love to play in your campaign where buying a few inches of flight makes you immune to HTH attacks. You never had a MA, brick, or speedster in your campaign with flight, gliding, swinging, superleap, teleportation, vehicle, or have a teammate that could provide transport to the EB guy??? By not paying points for the DS, you’re conceding a major advantage to the EC guy and thus it’s an apples to oranges comparison.

 

I may be wrong, but if a character attacks EC man, gets blinded, then maybe the brick grabs a car or telephone pole, the speedster grabs the metal frisbee he uses as an EB, the marksman gets his rifle out. I think I've only seen one character in the games I've played in who had no ranged attack. I think his point was that flying characters tend to get attacked by ranged attacks. The flash damage shield may be a neat one-use or limited use power, but since its obviously visible, it isn't that effective as a defensive countermeasure once word gets around. It can help as an offensive weapon, perhaps in a move-by or through, but in that caase why not by a regular flash attack. That limits is usefulness tremendously, IMO.

 

Ah, now we get to the subjective GM calls about what is allowed in a EC or not. Of course you would disagree with it, because you want to win the point.

 

Isn't this whole thread pretty subjective?

 

I made the EC and an MP the same way as in the example. With the same points, I made a 58 pt multipower pool for the same powers (8 point multi-slots). For better use, I put the regen and flash in ultra slots (4 each), and got another 8 point slot (8d6 EB) - now MP doesn't have to let them come to him - he can take the fight to the enemy. As to who is more powerful that's completely subjective. If both characters slug it out, with no tactics, then the EC probably will win. If their is some flexibility, the odds are probably still in the favor of EC guy (since he can use all powers at full power). If you go with both characters going after a villain, then its more open, especially if you modify the MP as I did.

 

We've rarely used ECs since they were always pretty restricted, and cost too much. MPs offered ease of expansion and use. Sure, the characters were not as powerful as the comic book heroes (like the oft-cited human torch example), but for a few points they can improve their power suite. ECs, as have been noted, can't do that. EC man still needs 20 CP to add a power (adjusted down in RP, of course). MP man needs 4 or 8 for full power. 8 points buys 40 active, opposed to 20 points for 40 active. The MP cost can also have limitations on it to lower the real cost as well (didn't want to imply it couldn't be done).

 

To me its imposible to accurately 'prove' that one is better than the other - each one has benefits in certain situations. If you look at an EC and MP constructed in exactly the same way, the MP costs less, but the EC can do more at once. That's what its designed to do. Try to make an EC as flexible as an MP, for the same cost - can't be done to my knowledge.

 

Trying to prove that just seems to be comparing batman to oranges (sorry - had to keep batman and fruits together in the thread somehow)

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Gary

Possibly. I'm very good at finding holes in the rules and exploiting loopholes. Did I ever show you my 1 real point thermonuclear bomb?

 

Although I'm not accusing you of such, I'd just point out that the many holes and loopholes are only problematic when not taking into account the whole of the system and that there MUST be a GM and that HERO cannot (and should not) be written such that points can be spent without GM oversight.

 

I only say this because I've seen many objections to rules and frameworks based on their "abuse", potential or otherwise, and that sort of bothers me when one considers that the rules were not written to be played without an umpire, thus most things cannot be taken at face values. LIke, just to pick a blatant example, just because the rules don't limit the number of slots in an MP or the number of frameworks that you can have every power in an MP or 10 frameworks just to reduce prices/create efficiency.

 

Again, Gary, this post is a tangent and not a direct reflection on your take on things.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Gary

Yeah, it's hard to quantify the value of versatility, but in the majority of encounters, 18d6 is better than the multipower. You'll get a situation where 75% of the time, the single power is better and 25% of the time, the multipower is a lot better. That seems to be a fair tradeoff in my book.

 

I don't think that's true, because for encounters villains/situations are geared to challenge players in a "realistic" way. That being said, I'm not so likely to create a villain who can stop a wide variety of MP powers (except at their root, and with MPs there's no enforced linkage as the same degree as with ECs) as I am a villain who will stop "the element" that is obvious to the character. The reason that the villain isn't as likely to stop an entire MP is that "realism" in the campaign; I can't afford to suspend disbelief to the point where a villain has a counter for everything in an MP. If the MP conveniently rests on a focus (yes, many do) it's a good bit simpler. But I find most players are unwilling to do so. And your classic Batman has an MP of "gadgets" that usually is not solely dependent on his utility belt.

 

Typically, I see MPs that are harder to scatter at once, whereas ECs are always pretty obvious in their effects. I would say that's been true well before 5th edition.

 

As an aside, as to your comments about the "changes" in 5th, the only one I can see that really matters is the 0 END one. That does address some of your concern. As to the drain-one-drain-all "addition", I don't know of a person who didn't play it such that a reasonable drain didn't drain the EC, and I don't know of a reasonable person who is playing it in practice identically to what 5th says on that point UNLESS they're (and this is reasonable) ensuring that any drains are well-defined enough in SFX that in practice it always works out.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Once again, the question: What percentage of players want an 18d6 attack, and what percentage want more versatility. (snipped)

 

Just to chime in from real world experience - "most" (actually the vast majority if I look through sheest) players I've seen will take the versatility over the big attack any day. And "most' players I've seen don't put a big attack in an EC and smaller attacks in an MP, although I've seen this on occassion certainly.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Gary

But Hugh and I like to crunch numbers. Don't spoil our fun.

 

The most efficient character designs in my experience are the brick with 10 pts of martial arts, and the person with multipower or vpp attacks and EC movements and defenses.

 

Well, in my game a brick can't do anything with 10 points of Martial Arts just because I do something similar to the earliest editions in that MA is essentially an advantage on STR (long story and a tangent to this thread, I've posted it elsewhere in more detail and you've probably seen it). So I will thoroughly admit I can't relate on this one. But as one of my players pointed out, you can just buy skill levels for the brick anyway and it's just about as cheap. Skill levels do that for just about anybody.

 

I dont' disagree that the MP/VPP with EC is an efficient design. But to AgentX' point, while the characters you've seen are more "efficient", were they really measurably more effective in game play?

 

Now that's a loaded question - if you're like me as a GM, you strive to ensure there's some equivalency in point of play. So I understand that and it's not intended to back you into any corner. I welcome any comments you have that say "no, but here's what I had to do as GM to "correct" it"