Elemental Controls

[Gary]

Originally posted by zornwil

Okay, so I'm missing the problem re ECs here in your actual gameplay...

 

EDIT - first that wasn't intended quite as smart-ass as it sounded - but second from reading other posts, it sounds like you don't know if it's been a problem as you've had characters who are nearly all EC-based or characteristics-based.

 

But given the characteristic-based ones balance with the EC ones...it seems the system is balanced....right? Wrong?

 

Ask yourself what would happen if Cosmic VPPs had their control costs removed. A 60 pt cosmic VPP would cost you exactly 60 pts. In practice, nobody has any advantage over anybody else because everybody buys one. However, I would have a problem with this cost structure.

 

The analogy isn't quite perfect, but I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

[Gary]

Originally posted by zornwil

To be clear, I've found more players prefer to have 2-5 different attacks than one really big one.

 

But do you understand that the single big attack is relatively "balanced" with the 5 small attacks?

[Gary]

Originally posted by zornwil

First, those "1 power attacks" are rarely so unidimensional, and regardless, yes, as soon as a super's schtick is well-known, you bet your bippy it's more easily exploited than an MP. At least that's what I've seen - in the source material as well as the roleplaying. Obviously your mileage varies.

 

In the majority of encounters, having flexibility is on par with having a big attack, if not better. Generally, I'd say it might be a bit better, but not by much because EC and MP frameworks are pretty well balanced. Something you've yet to discuss in terms of actual play as opposed to the theroetical NPCs you and Hugh are tossing back and forth.

 

Again, how is this different from someone buying a power OIF? The majority of the time, he has a great advantage over someone with natural powers. Some of the time, he's completely SOL. And the villains can make plans to deal with the OIF in a way that they can't to the person with natural powers.

 

 

Originally posted by zornwil

Gary, do you care to address the SFX examples I've given instead of speaking in generalities? Otherwise I'll simply ignore your point on this as well. Well, let me go a step further - you keep acting as if I and others have said that drain-one-drain-all is "bad". I've merely pointed out that it should rest on SFX - an explanation Steve Long (or any rational HERO player) has given many times over to explain aberrations.

 

I think it's better to rigorously enforce drain one drain all. Otherwise, you'll get a situation where a fire EC is disadvantaged compared to say a stretching EC or other weird ECs. It's a lot easier to drain or suppress fire powers (even a fire extinguisher would work) than stretching powers. I'd rather not have the headache of having an evil scientist with a stretching drain every 4th episode.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X

Buying a power in a framework to boos a power outside a framework is not inherently abusive. I'd check it out with a magnifying lense but I wouldn't ban it.

 

The problem I have with some of the opinions on this thread about frameworks is that it ignores the construction of the character in play. Some balanced powers would simply not be available for a reasonable price with the hard and fast "there is only one way to do things in my campaign" approach.

 

Please give an example of a balanced power that wouldn't be available for a reasonable price without a EC.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary

Please give an example of a balanced power that wouldn't be available for a reasonable price without a EC.

The better request is to ask for a balanced character that uses an EC. There are plenty of those characters.

 

As for your request - I've come across it in design considerations in the past. I'm not digging out every character I ever built though.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Gary

Ask yourself what would happen if Cosmic VPPs had their control costs removed. A 60 pt cosmic VPP would cost you exactly 60 pts. In practice, nobody has any advantage over anybody else because everybody buys one. However, I would have a problem with this cost structure.

 

The analogy isn't quite perfect, but I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

 

Yes, I understand what you're getting at, I believe, however not everybody buys ECs, or, even if they do (given their prevalence I'm willing to accept that for this purpose) you're talking about widely different point spreads on ECs among characters, yet they appear to me to balance fine.

 

However, I don't disagree that everyone would balance well if you rid the game completely of ECs or if everyone more-or-less equally abused them.

 

I also don't disagree if you replace ECs with a -1/2 or -1/4 lim that it will probably work in your game, for all sorts of reasons, both objective and subjective. I'm dubious it would work for HEROdom at large relative to how ECs have performed, even with their attendant controversy.

 

But anyway, yeah...got it.

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Gary

You're absolutely right! I've been playing for years that invisibility would cover stuff like force fields and flight. I note that 5th edition specifically states that it doesn't, unlike 4th edition. This seems kinda stupid though. Since running isn't invisible, that means that invisibility is worthless to anybody who ever moves.

 

Even though its sarcastic, for those who don't know - it doesn't apply to running since running has no visible effect other than your body moving (unless you take invisible power effect). The description only says that it does not make a character's attacks or other Powers invisible - and using visible Powers can expose an invisible character's position. Flight that is visible to sight (since I still think you can choose which three its visible to (p 71) - personally, I'd rule the regeneration as being visible as the healing of wounds (bending the rules, but it's my call in my campaign ). Force field would be visible, though. I think the FAQ has something on invisible running

 

Sorry, just wanted to chime in on that with an interpretation.

 

 

20 EC

20 16/16 FF 1/2 end

20 16" flight 1/2 end

40 12d6 EB.

 

That is 100 pts or 140 if bought straight.

 

Now if I understand you correctly, your 100 pt multipower would be roughly:

 

70 Pool

 

8 16/16 ForceField 1/2 END

8 16" Flight 1/2 END

14 14d6 EB

 

100

 

Are you going to seriously argue that this multipower is competitive with the EC??? The EC can have everything going at once, while if you have a 12d6 attack, you would have a grand total of 10 pts available for defenses and movements. Or if you have max defense, you'll have 30 pts available which means 6d6 EB even if you don't move at all. The EC is clearly and obviously far superior to this construct, so much so that I wonder why you would even argue the point.

 

Now if you have 140 pts to play with, it's a different story:

 

100 Pool

 

13 +26/+26 ForceField 1/2 END

8 16" Flight 1/2 END

19 19d6 EB

 

140 POINT TOTAL

 

This is competitive with the guy who buys everything straight. It's not obviously superior, but it's not obviously inferior either. You have 100 pts to play with vs 140 for Straight Dude, but you have flexibility, although you're still probably exceeding damage caps.

 

 

edited for content. How's this for a 100 point MP?

 

70 Pool

 

12 Drain flight, 4d6 ranged

4u 16" Flight 1/2 END

14 14d6 EB vs PD (gravity waves)

 

100

 

Probably lose right off the bat.

 

Hmm -

 

60 pool

 

12 6d6 Ego attack

6u 2d6 Entangle, BOECV

12 3d6 Flash vs sight, BOECV

6u Mind Control

4u 26 STR TK

 

100

 

Strikes from hiding, may win. But its not the same thing! Yeah - that's the point I'm trying to make that isn't being addressed. I don't think anyone denies that in a straight up one-on-one fight between a man with an EC and one with a MP, assuming the exact same powers, that EC man has an advantage.

 

So what. Tone down one of the mp slots and get points for another power, an entangle maybe. Or TK. Or whatever. That's the main benefit - for a few points you can get a lot of power. So you can't use it all at once. So what. Trade off.

 

When mp man finishes 2 adventures he has 6 XP (for example) - he (with GMs approval) picks up an Entangle ultra slot. Mr EC lets them sit there - he'll need 5 more adventures before he can gain another slot. So who has the benefit there? According to what seems to be your default position, its still the EC guy.

 

Mr EC has 3 powers - flight, force field, and EB. Mr MP has Flight, Force Field, EB, Entangle, Force Wall, Telekinesis, and Flight usable on others. Now Mr MP isn't as powerful in a straight up fight. But during the fight the bad guys start blasting away at the civilians nearby. Who has the advantage? I think a force wall beats flying in front of the bullets any day.

 

Why not compare the rest as well? Add in a pure no-flight, no ranged attack brick. Taking your idea farther along (that ECs are overpowered and give the EC man the advantage) then the EC man should be better off. Let's do one punch. Or maybe compare the EC man to one who is entirely skills based. Open the safe, without leaving a trace, mr EC. Sure, you can make an EC for some of that. Is it better? Or just different?

 

From what you posted, you apparently used ECs a lot. Out of the last 20 years, I think we've had one (a low power 'diety body' type thing) in all the campaigns I was in or ran. A lot different background there. Like I said, I've always found them too restrictive and costly - first, they need a very tight, focused reason for being combined in one framework (especially one where all powers can be used together, and second, because even if they can be explained, its a lot of points and END too - the one given above is 10 END per phase. The most your first mp example would use is 7. So with a SPD 5 character, thats 50 END to 35. Pump up mr ECs END and REC to compensate, or spend points on SPD. The MP guy can use those points elsewhere.

 

If your whole argument is based on facing two characters against each other and saying that one is clearly better overall, then I just can't buy it. But that said, you can sure play it that way if you want. Since I don't know if I'll post again in this thread, let me say that it has been interesting.

 

Have fun.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Gary

But do you understand that the single big attack is relatively "balanced" with the 5 small attacks?

 

At first I was going to say yes, but no, not really, since the bigger attack is more likely to be something like 1.5-2 times the smaller attacks (assuming some level of points caps, even if informal) and the smaller attacks are pretty likely to have enough variability to more than compensate...

 

but really, this depends way too much to get too specific about it and declare for sure. Honestly, my gut feel is that the multi-MPA guy is much better at offense than the singular attack guy, while the singular attack guy is noticeably better at defense.

 

I do get your point/idea. I'm just not sure how true it is in practice the more I think about it.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Gary

Again, how is this different from someone buying a power OIF? The majority of the time, he has a great advantage over someone with natural powers. Some of the time, he's completely SOL. And the villains can make plans to deal with the OIF in a way that they can't to the person with natural powers.

 

Yeah, but most people I know with MPs dilute these effects a lot - like Batman. Take away his utility belt and he's got crap flying out of his boots and gloves - where does he keep it? I dunno, but seems like half the slots in his MP are separate OIFs.

 

Essentially, MPs in my mind give a lot more flexibility on this particular count.

 

I think it's better to rigorously enforce drain one drain all. Otherwise, you'll get a situation where a fire EC is disadvantaged compared to say a stretching EC or other weird ECs. It's a lot easier to drain or suppress fire powers (even a fire extinguisher would work) than stretching powers. I'd rather not have the headache of having an evil scientist with a stretching drain every 4th episode.

 

I just think it's way too illogical if you have, say, a "Drain Energy Blasts" stop the stretching guy because he has a physical HTH "energy" blast. I think your way is more complicated as it stretches/confuses the storyline for purely metagame reasons.

 

Anyway, any elemental drain or the like can be easy, ranging from magical to techie to just plain McGuyveresque/Batmanesque.

 

However, I understand, and you've addressed my point even if I think it's...well...absurd...sorry, but I imagine you consider some aspect or another (or many?) of my thinking absurd and that's fine, I don't mean it in any mean way. The metagame considerations are the valid part.

[Zed-F]

IMHO, there is no problem vis-a-vis ECs. Gary's oft-cited problem with ECs are (a) he doesn't agree that the drain-one-drain-all lim is worth a 50% discount on most powers in an EC (assuming all powers in the EC are approx. the same AP), and ( the potential to have a significant number of powers all active at once is more useful than alternative framworks.

 

I don't think he's demonstrated his case. Take his latest example:

 

20 EC

20 16/16 FF 1/2 end

20 16" flight 1/2 end

40 12d6 EB.

 

That is 100 pts or 140 if bought straight.

 

Now if I understand you correctly, your 100 pt multipower would be roughly:

 

70 Pool

 

8 16/16 ForceField 1/2 END

8 16" Flight 1/2 END

14 14d6 EB

 

100

 

As if anyone buys a main attack/defense multipower with only 3 slots. Of course the EC is going to come out ahead if you manipulate the example so that it does. The whole point of a multipower is that it is flexible; a multipower with 3 slots hardly qualifies. Let's see what happens when we start talking about 10-slot frameworks, using ultras rather than multis, hmm? That, in my experience, is a far more typical configuration.

 

As far as having an EC with multiple defense powers in it goes that can all be used simultaneously, my response to that is quite simple. It usually doesn't happen, because most experienced GMs are going to have an idea of what the maximum attacks and maximum defenses in the campaign are allowed to be, and will quash any character that has too much of one or the other. This goes beyond AP limits pertaining to a particular defensive power, to examining the defensive and offensive arrays of characters as a whole.

 

Here's a better example, using the EC to its maximum cost break by having all powers the same size, and comparing it with a multipower:

 

EC Guy

20 EC (40-point powers)

20 16/16 FF 1/2 end

20 16" flight 1/2 end

20 8d6 EB.

20 Defense power A (e.g. Invisibility)

20 Mystery power B

Total: 120

 

What am I going to buy as the mystery power? Probably a secondary attack, or a utility power (e.g. regeneration if it fits the SFX.) I'm not likely going to buy a movement power or a defense power because (a) I already have a movement power, and ( the GM won't likely allow me to take yet another defense power. If, supposing that my main attack is a bit on the weak side, I opt for the second attack, say a flash, then what do I do when I want to expand my powers? Well, the GM isn't going to let me take either another attack or another defense, as I'll be violating campaign power levels, so if I want anything else I'm pretty much stuck with utility powers for the rest of my career. Nothing wrong with that, except if I come up against an opponent my main attacks don't work against or my defenses don't deter. Or, even worse, he becomes my Hunted...

 

Multi Guy

80 Multipower, 80 AP reserve

6u Attack A (60 AP)

4u Attack B (40 AP)

4u Attack C (40 AP)

4u Defence D (40 AP)

4u Defence E (40 AP)

4u Fast Move F (40 AP)

4u Utility G (40 AP)

4u Utility H (40 AP)

2u Light Defense I (20 AP)

2u Slow Move J (20 AP)

2u Utility K (20 AP)

Total: 120

 

I don't know about you, but I'd be a lot happier playing Multi guy. He may not use a multi-power attack as a matter of course, but he does have a 60 AP blast if he needs power and a pair of 40 AP alternates if he needs a way around EC guy's defenses rather than through them. From a campaign maxima perspective, probably a single 12d6 attack and a multi-power attack from EC guy with two 40 AP attacks would be considered about equivalent in terms of offensive potential, so no worries there. Besides, if he really wants to, he can still do a multi-power attack. He can put up a pair of strong defenses if he needs them, probably has more coverage against different kinds of attacks (e.g. NNDs), can move as quickly when he needs to, has more utility powers to draw on to turn the environment to his advantage, and has a lot more flexibility both now and for future expansion. What's not to like? Incidentally, a multipower with that many slots is not at all uncommon in my experience, especially one that is being relied on for more than just attacks.

 

If you want to argue the whole multipower-attack-EC-defenses/movement construct, fine... but the rule about the maximum number of defensive powers the GM is likely to allow to be active at once still applies. I don't see how that construct is, on the whole, any more efficient than just buying a bigger multipower with enough AP to power either a second attack, a second defense, or just plain bigger attacks and defenses.

 

IMHO there's no reason to call for a nerf for EC point breaks. If anything, it's multipowers that need the nerf, not that I'm advocating that either.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

I could replace the slot with +8 DCV costs end (Vibron page 214 of CKC), but since there seems to be so much argument about it and regeneration, let's make a simpler EC.

 

20 EC

20 16/16 FF 1/2 end

20 16" flight 1/2 end

40 12d6 EB.

 

That is 100 pts or 140 if bought straight.

 

Now we're hitting a more efficient EC, and the most useless MP structre possible. But you know what, Gary? We're not comparing apples to apples here - MultiMan has an advantage we've ignored. To be fully comparable, he should have the "drain one, drain all" limitation. Since we're talking 3 powers, I'd say it should be at the -1/4 level - fair? So that lets me design MultiMan more or less as follows:

 

32 +16/+16 Force Field, 1/2 END, drained with MP

 

55 69 pt Multi Pool - multi drained w/F Field

3 Flight 16" 1/2 END

10 13d6 EB

 

Now, MultiMan is clearly at a disadvantage. Why? he's trying to beat EC Man at his own game. If he's going to play this character, an EC is the superior structure. He needs an attacks multi, and to buy his DEF and Field elsewhere, so some other structure designed to take advantage of his multipower structure. As I've said before, Multi and EC are different. EC's are certainly better at some structures. Multipowers are superior in others (eg. let's try a character with 5 60 point attacks, as well as the flight and force field).

 

But if we take back that 40 points? Now MultiMan can build!

 

32 +16/+16 Force Field, 1/2 END, drained with MP

 

90 113 pt Multi Pool - multi drained w/F Field

3 Flight 17" 1/2 END

15 18d6 EB

 

WOW! If he moves at your speed, he still has 15d6+ EB to fire! he can also move just a tiny bit faster. Or he can slow down to only 5" flight and fire 18d6! This isn't just "competetive" - he can match your flight and defense AND do more damage, or slow down and enhance his damage potential even more.

 

Or he could build:

 

32 +16/+16 Force Field, 1/2 END, drained with MP

 

75 94 pt Multi Pool - multi drained w/F Field

3 Flight 17" 1/2 END

10 13d6 EB

10 13d6 Flash

10 6d6 END drain

 

Less raw damage potential, but he can land and fire off a 12d6 EB coupled with a 6d6 Flash, or a 3d6 END drain (keep all those powers up losing 21 END per phase, plus what you spend!). He can't quite fire at 12d6 and match your flight speed, but he's getting pretty close. And he doesn't need to keep up long if you're blind or exhausted.

 

And XP? He can boost his whole MP at 4 points per 5 xp as long as he doesn't raise the slots, where you need to pick between powers. Or he can pick up a powerful new attack for 10 points. Or boost his force field a bit. I guess you could boost Force Field and Flight fairly quickly (10 points in each effectively costs you 10 points in total since you catch up some with the EB). But attack power is costing you point for point now.

 

But EC Man should have a 28 point savings, so we need to cut MultiMan down to size. That gives him:

 

32 +16/+16 Force Field, 1/2 END, drained with MP

 

64 80 pt Multi Pool - multi drained w/F Field

3 Flight 16" 1/2 END

13 16d6 EB

 

So he can now fly half as fast as "EC Man" while attacking with equal power, or boost his power slightly. Let's assume MultiMan uses 28 xp to build up to one of the two Multi's shown above. What does EC Man do with his 28 points to remain competetive?

 

I'll skip the limitations discussion - the Multipower can also take limitations, thanks.

 

Originally posted by Gary

I have years of seeing many EC's in action. I see it as simply free points for a structure that really doesn't limit you.

 

I have many years too (maybe we should compare - I was in high school so that's...maybe I don't want to think about how old I'm getting...Well, it was first edition Champions, let's leave it at that. I see it as a framework that serves a different purpose than Multipower for different character concepts, and I find it pretty balanced.

 

I also suspect that, if it were unbalanced, it would not have survived 4 new editions as intact as it is.

 

Originally posted by Gary

It's possible, but foci rules are very specific that frameworks are considered one single power for purposes of destruction. If Bat's can't have everything destroyed in one shot, maybe he shouldn't have made his utility belt as a framework.

 

They are? Ummm...FREd, p 207, "Varying Limitations" discusses the "collection of OAF Guns" having OIF on the reserve. It takes a long time to take all the weapons (or the gunbelt) away. p 208, "Losing Powers" discusses the "collection of guns/gadgets" and notes losing ONE slot does not mean losing the whole multipower. The reserve could even be lost while leaving the character holding a gadget. A superhero's "utility belt" is a specific example of this. Sounds an awful lot like Batman to me.

 

EDIT: Missed/forgot the point break under Gary's EC structure replacement so had to add some on that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Zed-F

IMHO, there is no problem vis-a-vis ECs. Gary's oft-cited problem with ECs are (a) he doesn't agree that the drain-one-drain-all lim is worth a 50% discount on most powers in an EC (assuming all powers in the EC are approx. the same AP), and ( the potential to have a significant number of powers all active at once is more useful than alternative framworks.

 

Obviously, I agree with everything you've said. What's worse, if we take Gary's structure (-1/4 limit for "drain one drains all") and apply it to a character with a judicious Multipower and one power outside it, we get a character who is superior to his EC example.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Now we're hitting a more efficient EC, and the most useless MP structre possible. But you know what, Gary? We're not comparing apples to apples here - MultiMan has an advantage we've ignored. To be fully comparable, he should have the "drain one, drain all" limitation. Since we're talking 3 powers, I'd say it should be at the -1/4 level - fair? So that lets me design MultiMan more or less as follows:

 

32 +16/+16 Force Field, 1/2 END, drained with MP

 

55 69 pt Multi Pool - multi drained w/F Field

3 Flight 16" 1/2 END

10 13d6 EB

 

Now, MultiMan is clearly at a disadvantage. Why? he's trying to beat EC Man at his own game. If he's going to play this character, an EC is the superior structure. He needs an attacks multi, and to buy his DEF and Field elsewhere, so some other structure designed to take advantage of his multipower structure. As I've said before, Multi and EC are different. EC's are certainly better at some structures. Multipowers are superior in others (eg. let's try a character with 5 60 point attacks, as well as the flight and force field).

 

Yeah, Multi is clearly at a disad vs the EC guy. I'm glad you recognize that.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

But if we take back that 40 points? Now MultiMan can build!

 

Hugh, you've missed something very obvious. If I buy all my powers straight, I don't have that drain one drain all limitation!

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

32 +16/+16 Force Field, 1/2 END, drained with MP

 

90 113 pt Multi Pool - multi drained w/F Field

3 Flight 17" 1/2 END

15 18d6 EB

 

WOW! If he moves at your speed, he still has 15d6+ EB to fire! he can also move just a tiny bit faster. Or he can slow down to only 5" flight and fire 18d6! This isn't just "competetive" - he can match your flight and defense AND do more damage, or slow down and enhance his damage potential even more.

 

Let's correct your error:

 

40 +16/+16 Force Field, 1/2 END, drained with MP

 

75 75 pt Multi Pool - multi drained w/F Field

10 Flight 20" 1/2 END

15 15d6 EB

 

You have my defense, but you're going to have to sacrifice something. If you want my attack, you're down to 6" of flight. If you want my flight, you're down to 7d6 EB. As I said, merely competitive.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Or he could build:

 

32 +16/+16 Force Field, 1/2 END, drained with MP

 

75 94 pt Multi Pool - multi drained w/F Field

3 Flight 17" 1/2 END

10 13d6 EB

10 13d6 Flash

10 6d6 END drain

 

Less raw damage potential, but he can land and fire off a 12d6 EB coupled with a 6d6 Flash, or a 3d6 END drain (keep all those powers up losing 21 END per phase, plus what you spend!). He can't quite fire at 12d6 and match your flight speed, but he's getting pretty close. And he doesn't need to keep up long if you're blind or exhausted.

 

Again, let's correct your error:

 

40 +16/+16 Force Field, 1/2 END, drained with MP

 

70 70 pt Multi Pool - multi drained w/F Field

8 Flight 16" 1/2 END

12 12d6 EB

10 10d6 Flash

 

This seems weaker than the previous version. However, again it's merely competitive with straight points guy.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

And XP? He can boost his whole MP at 4 points per 5 xp as long as he doesn't raise the slots, where you need to pick between powers. Or he can pick up a powerful new attack for 10 points. Or boost his force field a bit. I guess you could boost Force Field and Flight fairly quickly (10 points in each effectively costs you 10 points in total since you catch up some with the EB). But attack power is costing you point for point now.

 

But EC Man should have a 28 point savings, so we need to cut MultiMan down to size. That gives him:

 

32 +16/+16 Force Field, 1/2 END, drained with MP

 

64 80 pt Multi Pool - multi drained w/F Field

3 Flight 16" 1/2 END

13 16d6 EB

 

So he can now fly half as fast as "EC Man" while attacking with equal power, or boost his power slightly. Let's assume MultiMan uses 28 xp to build up to one of the two Multi's shown above. What does EC Man do with his 28 points to remain competetive?

 

I'll skip the limitations discussion - the Multipower can also take limitations, thanks.

 

What's to stop the EC guy from buying an attack MP and leaving his def/movement/special powers in the EC?

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I have many years too (maybe we should compare - I was in high school so that's...maybe I don't want to think about how old I'm getting...Well, it was first edition Champions, let's leave it at that. I see it as a framework that serves a different purpose than Multipower for different character concepts, and I find it pretty balanced.

 

I also suspect that, if it were unbalanced, it would not have survived 4 new editions as intact as it is.

 

I've been playing since 1985. Characteristics are underpriced as well, yet they survived 4 editions.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

They are? Ummm...FREd, p 207, "Varying Limitations" discusses the "collection of OAF Guns" having OIF on the reserve. It takes a long time to take all the weapons (or the gunbelt) away. p 208, "Losing Powers" discusses the "collection of guns/gadgets" and notes losing ONE slot does not mean losing the whole multipower. The reserve could even be lost while leaving the character holding a gadget. A superhero's "utility belt" is a specific example of this. Sounds an awful lot like Batman to me.

 

EDIT: Missed/forgot the point break under Gary's EC structure replacement so had to add some on that.

 

But the utility belt can be destroyed in one shot, and it only has nonhardened defenses equal to its reserve. That proves my point, that Bats is vulnerable in ways that other characters aren't.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Obviously, I agree with everything you've said. What's worse, if we take Gary's structure (-1/4 limit for "drain one drains all") and apply it to a character with a judicious Multipower and one power outside it, we get a character who is superior to his EC example.

 

As you should know from the extra time to change multipower slots thread, I'm not the type of person to allow a multipower to get the limitation if it's linked to something stupid like 5 pts of flash defense. And if you do link the multipower to other powers and take the limitation, you can bet that it will be used against you sometime within the game.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F

IMHO, there is no problem vis-a-vis ECs. Gary's oft-cited problem with ECs are (a) he doesn't agree that the drain-one-drain-all lim is worth a 50% discount on most powers in an EC (assuming all powers in the EC are approx. the same AP), and ( the potential to have a significant number of powers all active at once is more useful than alternative framworks.

 

I don't think he's demonstrated his case. Take his latest example:

 

 

 

As if anyone buys a main attack/defense multipower with only 3 slots. Of course the EC is going to come out ahead if you manipulate the example so that it does. The whole point of a multipower is that it is flexible; a multipower with 3 slots hardly qualifies. Let's see what happens when we start talking about 10-slot frameworks, using ultras rather than multis, hmm? That, in my experience, is a far more typical configuration.

 

As far as having an EC with multiple defense powers in it goes that can all be used simultaneously, my response to that is quite simple. It usually doesn't happen, because most experienced GMs are going to have an idea of what the maximum attacks and maximum defenses in the campaign are allowed to be, and will quash any character that has too much of one or the other. This goes beyond AP limits pertaining to a particular defensive power, to examining the defensive and offensive arrays of characters as a whole.

 

Here's a better example, using the EC to its maximum cost break by having all powers the same size, and comparing it with a multipower:

 

EC Guy

20 EC (40-point powers)

20 16/16 FF 1/2 end

20 16" flight 1/2 end

20 8d6 EB.

20 Defense power A (e.g. Invisibility)

20 Mystery power B

Total: 120

 

What am I going to buy as the mystery power? Probably a secondary attack, or a utility power (e.g. regeneration if it fits the SFX.) I'm not likely going to buy a movement power or a defense power because (a) I already have a movement power, and ( the GM won't likely allow me to take yet another defense power. If, supposing that my main attack is a bit on the weak side, I opt for the second attack, say a flash, then what do I do when I want to expand my powers? Well, the GM isn't going to let me take either another attack or another defense, as I'll be violating campaign power levels, so if I want anything else I'm pretty much stuck with utility powers for the rest of my career. Nothing wrong with that, except if I come up against an opponent my main attacks don't work against or my defenses don't deter. Or, even worse, he becomes my Hunted...

 

Multi Guy

80 Multipower, 80 AP reserve

6u Attack A (60 AP)

4u Attack B (40 AP)

4u Attack C (40 AP)

4u Defence D (40 AP)

4u Defence E (40 AP)

4u Fast Move F (40 AP)

4u Utility G (40 AP)

4u Utility H (40 AP)

2u Light Defense I (20 AP)

2u Slow Move J (20 AP)

2u Utility K (20 AP)

Total: 120

 

I don't know about you, but I'd be a lot happier playing Multi guy. He may not use a multi-power attack as a matter of course, but he does have a 60 AP blast if he needs power and a pair of 40 AP alternates if he needs a way around EC guy's defenses rather than through them. From a campaign maxima perspective, probably a single 12d6 attack and a multi-power attack from EC guy with two 40 AP attacks would be considered about equivalent in terms of offensive potential, so no worries there. Besides, if he really wants to, he can still do a multi-power attack. He can put up a pair of strong defenses if he needs them, probably has more coverage against different kinds of attacks (e.g. NNDs), can move as quickly when he needs to, has more utility powers to draw on to turn the environment to his advantage, and has a lot more flexibility both now and for future expansion. What's not to like? Incidentally, a multipower with that many slots is not at all uncommon in my experience, especially one that is being relied on for more than just attacks.

 

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have the option of having 200 active points in powers active at the same time rather than 80. I can attack, defend, and move at the same time while having a secondary defense and mystery power as well. You can only have 2 of them up at the same time at full power. It's true that you're more flexible, but 200 pts to 80 is a pretty hefty difference.

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

If you want to argue the whole multipower-attack-EC-defenses/movement construct, fine... but the rule about the maximum number of defensive powers the GM is likely to allow to be active at once still applies. I don't see how that construct is, on the whole, any more efficient than just buying a bigger multipower with enough AP to power either a second attack, a second defense, or just plain bigger attacks and defenses.

 

IMHO there's no reason to call for a nerf for EC point breaks. If anything, it's multipowers that need the nerf, not that I'm advocating that either.

 

Many if not most people who buy EC's also buy attack multipowers as well.

[Gary]

Originally posted by badger3k

From what you posted, you apparently used ECs a lot. Out of the last 20 years, I think we've had one (a low power 'diety body' type thing) in all the campaigns I was in or ran. A lot different background there. Like I said, I've always found them too restrictive and costly - first, they need a very tight, focused reason for being combined in one framework (especially one where all powers can be used together, and second, because even if they can be explained, its a lot of points and END too - the one given above is 10 END per phase. The most your first mp example would use is 7. So with a SPD 5 character, thats 50 END to 35. Pump up mr ECs END and REC to compensate, or spend points on SPD. The MP guy can use those points elsewhere.

 

 

Badger, if you've only used 1 EC in 20 years because of difficulty of use, why wouldn't you support an alternative that's easy to use and understand with the ability to place powers of different active points in the same "structure"?

 

I'm talking about having a -1/4 "drain one drain all" limitation for all powers in the "framework".

 

Incidentally, End cost is only 8 per phase for EC dude. 1 each for flight and FF (they're 1/2 end), and 6 for EB.

[Farkling]

/QUOTE/

"What's to stop the EC guy from buying an attack MP and leaving his def/movement/special powers in the EC?"

/ENDQUOTE/

 

My house rule, which I believe YOU referred to as an "arbitrary ban" (though not ins so many words).

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

As you should know from the extra time to change multipower slots thread, I'm not the type of person to allow a multipower to get the limitation if it's linked to something stupid like 5 pts of flash defense. And if you do link the multipower to other powers and take the limitation, you can bet that it will be used against you sometime within the game.

 

And so it should. It will also be used against the character with the EC, so unless they both have that limitation,. we've got your oft quoted fruit basket problem, haven't we?

 

By the way, it's not "used against me". It's "applying my limitation". The player chooses disadvantages and limitations, just like he or she chooses powers, skills and stats. All of these should have some implications in the campaign over time.

 

As an aside question, any comments out there on buying Power Defense for EC characters? Seems to me this reduces their big drawback fairly effectively.

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Gary

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have the option of having 200 active points in powers active at the same time rather than 80. I can attack, defend, and move at the same time while having a secondary defense and mystery power as well. You can only have 2 of them up at the same time at full power. It's true that you're more flexible, but 200 pts to 80 is a pretty hefty difference.

You're getting awfully hung up on that 200 AP number. Let's look at that again.

 

EC Guy

20 EC (40-point powers)

20 16/16 FF 1/2 end

20 16" flight 1/2 end

20 8d6 EB.

20 Defense power A (e.g. Invisibility)

20 Mystery power B

Total: 120

 

Multi Guy

80 Multipower, 80 AP reserve

6u Attack A (60 AP)

4u Attack B (40 AP)

4u Attack C (40 AP)

4u Defence D (40 AP)

4u Defence E (40 AP)

4u Fast Move F (40 AP)

4u Utility G (40 AP)

4u Utility H (40 AP)

2u Light Defense I (20 AP)

2u Slow Move J (20 AP)

2u Utility K (20 AP)

Total: 120

 

Now, let's suppose that Multiguy is a spellcaster, so that we aren't limited by SFX (we haven't defined EC Guy's SFX either.) Suppose Multiguy has defined some, perhaps even several of his powers as Uncontrolled, or as Continuing Charges. It's certainly within his purview, many spells and gadgets are defined that way. For the sake of argument, let's be conservative and say only Defense E and Slow Move J are on continuing charges. This leaves Defense D and Fast Move F as powers available all the time, and Defense E and Slow Move J as powers that are intended only to provide a boost in combat or when otherwise necessary. Note that with only those 2 powers on continuing charges, we're not in any more danger of violating campaign limits than EC guy is. Could EC guy do the same and use Uncontrolled/continuing charges? Sure, but he wouldn't get nearly the same benefit out of doing so; he can already use all his powers at once.

 

Moreover, several utility powers such as Summon and Change Environment are the sort of power you use once and they have some continuing effect, independent of what else the character does. It's quite possible that some of these sorts of effects exist in Multiguy's multipower. EC Guy might like to take some of these too... but it costs him 20 RP per power. Multiguy can take 5 times as many for the same RP, and they are pretty much equally useful for him as they would be for EC Guy. Sure EC Guy can use them all every phase, but if you only need to use them once, that doesn't add a lot of value. Plus, he has to be able to afford them in the first place.

 

So now we have MultiGuy plus 4 summoned 150-point pets, a changed environment that either helps him or hinders EC guy, plus MultiGuy himself, up against EC Guy. To compound matters, MultiGuy can have a 60 AP attack, 60 AP of defenses, and 20 AP of movement, or 40 AP of attack, 80 AP of defenses, and 20 AP of movement, or several other possibilities, depending on what the circumstances call for.

 

Even if we just consider the summon as a 40 AP power instead of looking at the actual capabilities of 150-point characters, MultiGuy has about 220 AP of powers going at once, to EC Guy's 200, and is a lot more flexible about (a) changing his power loadout to suit the circumstances, ( adding more powers to his array that can be used simultaneously, either by virtue of Uncontrolled/Continuing Charges, or by virtue of the fact that they inherently have a continuing effect. While EC guy is struggling to get 20 RP together for another power to get up to 240 AP simultaneously, MultiGuy has bought 5-7 more powers for his multipower. If a number of them have a continuing effect via one means or another, he has the potential to vastly outstrip EC Guy in terms of the number of AP simultaneously in use -- in fact, he could have done that with his existing 11 slots!

 

EDIT: removed inappropriate taunt.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Yeah, Multi is clearly at a disad vs the EC guy. I'm glad you recognize that.

 

What I said is Multi Guy will be at a disadvantage if he tries to use a Multipower to duplicate what an EC does best. My point is not that multipowers should be nerfed. It is that EC's and multipowers balance out where each is used for what it's effective at accomplishing.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Hugh, you've missed something very obvious. If I buy all my powers straight, I don't have that drain one drain all limitation!

 

Which is what I said later in my post (the EDIT part). The ultimate result is that, if we nerf the EC point savings, a multipower can remain competitive with the EC if the character tries to accomplish the same things as the EC character. Now imagine he takes an approach intended to capitalize on the benefits of a multipower, rather than imitate what an EC character does.

 

Originally posted by Gary

What's to stop the EC guy from buying an attack MP and leaving his def/movement/special powers in the EC?

 

Why should the character be allowed to transfer that EB that was part of his EC yesterday out to a multipower today? To me, that's a character rewrite. If he wants to do that under the present system, your starting character spends:

 

20 EC

20 Flight

20 Force Field

 

60 12d6 EB

 

120 points, rather than the 100 he started with before. With 12 xp, he can convert the EB into a 2 slot multi. Of course, this assumes the GM allows your 2 power EC, whose third power hangs outside the framework.

 

Finally, your comments sound like an admission that the EC is not superior to the multipower, as you wish to use both in tandem to benefit from the unique benefits each one offers.

 

Originally posted by Gary

I've been playing since 1985. Characteristics are underpriced as well, yet they survived 4 editions.

 

Looks like I get the "experience edge", then. I started playing in high school, and I was in university in 1985. I can't remember, however, what year of high school I was in when I got first edition. It had to be 1983 or earlier, and it couldn't have been earlier than 1981 (or very klate 1980). In any case, if years of experience is the guide, I beat you by 2 years of more.

 

And the debate whether characteristics are underpriced remains open. Just like I don't see EC characters waltzing all over the rest of the constructs, I don't see Bricks enjoying popularity beyond that evidenced in the comics.

 

Both of the above are, of course, tangential to the main issue. But tell me - you believe EC's provide too much benefit, you believe characteristics are overpriced - how many more substantial aspects of the system do you disagree with? And given all these disagreements, why have you continued to play the system for 18 years? [No harm adding another tangent at this point...]

 

Originally posted by Gary

But the utility belt can be destroyed in one shot, and it only has nonhardened defenses equal to its reserve. That proves my point, that Bats is vulnerable in ways that other characters aren't.

 

And yet that NEVER happens in the comics. Maybe he buys his slots with focuses and his belt with OIHID. That would be what, a coconut? hmmm...inaccessible foci are protected by the character's own defenses - maybe it's all that Combat Luck that protects his belt.. In any case, we're now moving into the focus argument again, which isn't exactly central to the issue whether the EC provides excessive benefits as compared to the Multipower.

[zornwil]

Gary, do you know yet if you're going to go yet with 1/4 or 1/2 as a "elementally linked" limitation? Just curious. In the 1/2 case it's not a dramatic difference from EC in the end - notable and significant depending on how many powers of course and how they're affected by AP limits, but not so many points I'd get overly excited, even if I disagree. But at 1/4 it's pretty impactful. So I'm wondering which way you're going.

 

Just from a different perspective, a player perspective as opposed to rules-examiner or GM, in my opinion players will feel the pain against MultiPower players (or all will end up with MPs - which is more likely) if it's 1/4 but probably not care much at 1/2. For what that's worth.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F

You're getting awfully hung up on that 200 AP number. Let's look at that again.

 

EC Guy

20 EC (40-point powers)

20 16/16 FF 1/2 end

20 16" flight 1/2 end

20 8d6 EB.

20 Defense power A (e.g. Invisibility)

20 Mystery power B

Total: 120

 

Multi Guy

80 Multipower, 80 AP reserve

6u Attack A (60 AP)

4u Attack B (40 AP)

4u Attack C (40 AP)

4u Defence D (40 AP)

4u Defence E (40 AP)

4u Fast Move F (40 AP)

4u Utility G (40 AP)

4u Utility H (40 AP)

2u Light Defense I (20 AP)

2u Slow Move J (20 AP)

2u Utility K (20 AP)

Total: 120

 

Now, let's suppose that Multiguy is a spellcaster, so that we aren't limited by SFX (we haven't defined EC Guy's SFX either.) Suppose Multiguy has defined some, perhaps even several of his powers as Uncontrolled, or as Continuing Charges. It's certainly within his purview, many spells and gadgets are defined that way. For the sake of argument, let's be conservative and say only Defense E and Slow Move J are on continuing charges. This leaves Defense D and Fast Move F as powers available all the time, and Defense E and Slow Move J as powers that are intended only to provide a boost in combat or when otherwise necessary. Note that with only those 2 powers on continuing charges, we're not in any more danger of violating campaign limits than EC guy is. Could EC guy do the same and use Uncontrolled/continuing charges? Sure, but he wouldn't get nearly the same benefit out of doing so; he can already use all his powers at once.

 

Moreover, several utility powers such as Summon and Change Environment are the sort of power you use once and they have some continuing effect, independent of what else the character does. It's quite possible that some of these sorts of effects exist in Multiguy's multipower. EC Guy might like to take some of these too... but it costs him 20 RP per power. Multiguy can take 5 times as many for the same RP, and they are pretty much equally useful for him as they would be for EC Guy. Sure EC Guy can use them all every phase, but if you only need to use them once, that doesn't add a lot of value. Plus, he has to be able to afford them in the first place.

 

So now we have MultiGuy plus 4 summoned 150-point pets, a changed environment that either helps him or hinders EC guy, plus MultiGuy himself, up against EC Guy. To compound matters, MultiGuy can have a 60 AP attack, 60 AP of defenses, and 20 AP of movement, or 40 AP of attack, 80 AP of defenses, and 20 AP of movement, or several other possibilities, depending on what the circumstances call for.

 

Even if we just consider the summon as a 40 AP power instead of looking at the actual capabilities of 150-point characters, MultiGuy has about 220 AP of powers going at once, to EC Guy's 200, and is a lot more flexible about (a) changing his power loadout to suit the circumstances, ( adding more powers to his array that can be used simultaneously, either by virtue of Uncontrolled/Continuing Charges, or by virtue of the fact that they inherently have a continuing effect. While EC guy is struggling to get 20 RP together for another power to get up to 240 AP simultaneously, MultiGuy has bought 5-7 more powers for his multipower. If a number of them have a continuing effect via one means or another, he has the potential to vastly outstrip EC Guy in terms of the number of AP simultaneously in use -- in fact, he could have done that with his existing 11 slots!

 

EDIT: removed inappropriate taunt.

 

Zed, you have a couple of major problems with the continuous charges in a framework route. First of all, that would make VPPs by far the most efficient if it were legal. A character could put 1000 powers up at a time with a charge that lasts 1 day. Second, the Q&A recommends against this just to get lots of powers going at the same time:

 

Q: The rules state that a Continuing Charge in a Power Framework remains in effect even if the character switches the Framework to another power. Is there any limit to this duration, or could a character with a Framework establish several powers with lengthy durations (say, 1 Day)?

 

A: There’s no limit under the rules, but obviously the GM should monitor this sort of power construct for abusiveness. The intent of the rule is to allow interesting and logical powers (such as smoke grenades in a Multipower of weapons), not to provide characters with huge amounts of power cheaply.

 

Third of all, even if it were allowed, you're assuming that you have significant noncombat time to get them up. If as is more likely it's a meeting engangement, then your wasting time in combat to get them up.

 

Phase 1. EC guy has 200 pts up. Multi guy has either no defenses, no attacks, and no movements up while he's throwing up 80 pts of continuing charges. Or he has 40 pts to split between moving, defending, and attacking while putting up 40 more on a continuing charge.

 

To get to 220 active points up as you're suggesting, it would take just about 2 full phases of doing nothing, or 4 phases of just protecting yourself and hoping you don't get squashed.

 

It certainly doesn't sound like Multi guy is superior to EC guy.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

And so it should. It will also be used against the character with the EC, so unless they both have that limitation,. we've got your oft quoted fruit basket problem, haven't we?

 

By the way, it's not "used against me". It's "applying my limitation". The player chooses disadvantages and limitations, just like he or she chooses powers, skills and stats. All of these should have some implications in the campaign over time.

 

I'm not disagreeing, if a limitation is chosen by the player, it's up to the GM to either forbid it or make sure it comes into play. However, to make enough problems for the EC player so that the limitation becomes worth the points, would bog the game down and feel "forced".

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

As an aside question, any comments out there on buying Power Defense for EC characters? Seems to me this reduces their big drawback fairly effectively.

 

Bad idea allowing ECs with lots of power defense. It would be like someone with 40 hardened resistant defenses taking a susceptibility to taking body damage.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

What I said is Multi Guy will be at a disadvantage if he tries to use a Multipower to duplicate what an EC does best. My point is not that multipowers should be nerfed. It is that EC's and multipowers balance out where each is used for what it's effective at accomplishing.

 

You haven't even proven that multiguy is superior to straight points guy. I can easily prove that EC guy is superior to straight power guy.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Which is what I said later in my post (the EDIT part). The ultimate result is that, if we nerf the EC point savings, a multipower can remain competitive with the EC if the character tries to accomplish the same things as the EC character. Now imagine he takes an approach intended to capitalize on the benefits of a multipower, rather than imitate what an EC character does.

 

You mean something as basic as flying and protecting yourself at the same time? Heck, some posters in this thread were suggesting allowing 0 end powers in a EC. Do you really want make a comparison when armor and damage reduction or characteristics are allowed in a EC?

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Why should the character be allowed to transfer that EB that was part of his EC yesterday out to a multipower today? To me, that's a character rewrite. If he wants to do that under the present system, your starting character spends:

 

20 EC

20 Flight

20 Force Field

 

60 12d6 EB

 

120 points, rather than the 100 he started with before. With 12 xp, he can convert the EB into a 2 slot multi. Of course, this assumes the GM allows your 2 power EC, whose third power hangs outside the framework.

 

Considering that even at 140 pts, the multi wasn't clearly superior to the straight points guy, the comparison is even worse with 120 pts to play with. And there are plenty of characters in CKC with a 2 power EC.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Finally, your comments sound like an admission that the EC is not superior to the multipower, as you wish to use both in tandem to benefit from the unique benefits each one offers.

 

Yeah, for stuff that I can only do 1 at a time, I like multis. I think one at a time is a reasonable limitation for the point savings. Just like a single 90 pt power vs a multi with 5 60 pt powers. It's a fair tradeoff.

 

With ECs, it's free points. A person who buys 4 powers that he wants up at the same time has a huge advantage over the person who buys his powers straight. Not a fair tradeoff.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Looks like I get the "experience edge", then. I started playing in high school, and I was in university in 1985. I can't remember, however, what year of high school I was in when I got first edition. It had to be 1983 or earlier, and it couldn't have been earlier than 1981 (or very klate 1980). In any case, if years of experience is the guide, I beat you by 2 years of more.

 

And the debate whether characteristics are underpriced remains open. Just like I don't see EC characters waltzing all over the rest of the constructs, I don't see Bricks enjoying popularity beyond that evidenced in the comics.

 

I think it's because most GM's take steps to control their campaigns with DC caps, and limits on dex/spd of certain archetypes. Without these controls, a brick with 10 pts of martial arts, 30 dex, and 6 speed would be terrifying.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Both of the above are, of course, tangential to the main issue. But tell me - you believe EC's provide too much benefit, you believe characteristics are overpriced - how many more substantial aspects of the system do you disagree with? And given all these disagreements, why have you continued to play the system for 18 years? [No harm adding another tangent at this point...]

 

Just because I dislike certain features of the system doesn't mean that I dislike the system as a whole. I've played D&D and think it could use some improvements. My favorite game, Advanced Squad Leader could use some improvements, but I still play it.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

And yet that NEVER happens in the comics. Maybe he buys his slots with focuses and his belt with OIHID. That would be what, a coconut? hmmm...inaccessible foci are protected by the character's own defenses - maybe it's all that Combat Luck that protects his belt.. In any case, we're now moving into the focus argument again, which isn't exactly central to the issue whether the EC provides excessive benefits as compared to the Multipower.

 

I've seen Batman with his utility belt taken away. I admit that I've never seen it destroyed. However, in Champions terms, he is vulnerable to both.

[Gary]

Originally posted by zornwil

Gary, do you know yet if you're going to go yet with 1/4 or 1/2 as a "elementally linked" limitation? Just curious. In the 1/2 case it's not a dramatic difference from EC in the end - notable and significant depending on how many powers of course and how they're affected by AP limits, but not so many points I'd get overly excited, even if I disagree. But at 1/4 it's pretty impactful. So I'm wondering which way you're going.

 

Just from a different perspective, a player perspective as opposed to rules-examiner or GM, in my opinion players will feel the pain against MultiPower players (or all will end up with MPs - which is more likely) if it's 1/4 but probably not care much at 1/2. For what that's worth.

 

I would probably go with a -1/4. The more I think about it, the less I'm inclined to create enough drainers and suppressors to make the limitation worth a -1/2. I would set a certain minimum powers/active points before even the -1/4 kicks in.