Elemental Controls

[Gary]

Originally posted by Farkling

/QUOTE/

"What's to stop the EC guy from buying an attack MP and leaving his def/movement/special powers in the EC?"

/ENDQUOTE/

 

My house rule, which I believe YOU referred to as an "arbitrary ban" (though not ins so many words).

 

It was Agent X, not me that you're thinking about.

[Zed-F]

Zed, you have a couple of major problems with the continuous charges in a framework route. First of all, that would make VPPs by far the most efficient if it were legal.

 

I don't know of any GMs who have a problem with it in general, only with abuses of it. If the GM is going to allow EC guy to have 2 defenses running at once, I very much doubt he's going to have a problem with MultiGuy having 2 defenses running at once. Obviously, the GM would not allow VPP guy to have a whackload of defenses running at once, since that would violate campaign power levels. I feel I already covered the campaign power levels issue adequately in my previous post. Perhaps you should go back and take another look?

 

Secondly, who said anything about charges lasting a day? Smoke charges lasting a few minutes are typically perfectly fine in concept, and the same holds true for most other powers using continuous charges. A few minutes is ample time for most combats, which are typically over in less than one.

 

Third of all, even if it were allowed, you're assuming that you have significant noncombat time to get them up. If as is more likely it's a meeting engangement, then your wasting time in combat to get them up.

 

Oh sure. Maybe if EC Guy catches MultiGuy by surprise. Given the converse situation, forget it. Even in just an open field battle with reasonably clear sight lines, it will take EC Guy enough time to get into attack range at 16" of movement per phase that MultiGuy will have ample time to get his powers going. Don't most supers KNOW when they are going after a villain, have a reasonable idea of where the target is, and have enough forewarning of when the battle is about to start to get their powers up? Unless we're talking an ambush scenario, your argument doesn't wash. All Multiguy needs is a few seconds and he's set, how hard is that?

 

Phase 1. EC guy has 200 pts up. Multi guy has either no defenses, no attacks, and no movements up while he's throwing up 80 pts of continuing charges. Or he has 40 pts to split between moving, defending, and attacking while putting up 40 more on a continuing charge.

 

To get to 220 active points up as you're suggesting, it would take just about 2 full phases of doing nothing, or 4 phases of just protecting yourself and hoping you don't get squashed.

 

It certainly doesn't sound like Multi guy is superior to EC guy.

That's your ambush scenario. Not very heroic, or in keeping with what I know about comics.

 

Try this one. Multi Guy is trying to perform some task in the warehouse district, and EC Guy is trying to stop him, but only knows the general area Multi Guy's in, so EC guy's looking for him. Multi Guy sees EC Guy coming just about the same time that EC Guy spots him, a hundred meters away -- not that far, across a football field. While EC Guy is trying to get in range for a shot without leaving himself vulnerable, Multi Guy takes a few seconds to prepare for the upcoming fight. First he blankets the area in fog so EC Guy won't know exactly where he is, then summons his pets. By the time EC Guy shows up at close range and starts looking for Multi Guy, those 4 pets are there harassing him. At this point either Multi Guy can finish what he was doing if his pets have the situation in hand, or he can focus on EC Guy if he needs to. EC Guy can't match that kind of tactical flexibility, 'cause he simply doesn't have the powers to do so.

 

Or how about this one. EC Guy and Multi Guy meet in a bar. Things get off to a bad start and insults get exchanged. Both sides start activating defensive powers. MultiGuy summons his buddies to back him up. Trash talk keeps flying. Suddenly, one guy gets pushed over the edge, and strikes the first blow.

 

Even supposing EC Guy does manage to ambush Multi Guy, surely he's not going to shoot without giving a warning first, if we're talking heroic combat here? That warning would likely be enough to let MultiGuy turn up his defenses and try to duck behind cover. EC Guy would get his attack off, but not before the defenses went up, and assuming EC Guy wasn't able to KO Multi Guy in one shot, by the time EC guy was able to work around the cover, Multi Guy will have bought himself enough time to get the rest of his powers up and running. How many times do we see someone duck behind a corner and change a clip? This scenario operates on a similar principle, except that changing a clip takes a full phase, and things like change environment and summon don't; Multi Guy can keep on the move if necessary until such time as he's ready to stand and fight.

 

I'd consider any of those scenarios a lot more typical than your version of the ambush scenario. Not to say that ambushes can't happen, but arguing that EC guy is better than Multi Guy simply because he has an advantage in a surprise attack is kind of silly. Of course he has an advantage in an ambush, anybody would!

 

It's also worth noting that EC Guy can recover more easily from being ambushed. While that's true enough, it doesn't strike me as enough of an advantage to say that an EC is in general overpowered. It's one of those tradeoffs this thread has been talking about -- EC Guy is giving up flexibility (and a LOT of it) and vulnerability to "drain one drain all" for being ready to go at a moment's notice. Not for raw power -- Multi Guy can easily match him there, with the right power constructs. Just for the ability to be ready instantly, without requiring a few seconds to "set up" for a fight.

 

Not worth it in my book. It might be in someone else's book. Either way, it's certainly not obviously imbalanced in one direction or the other.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

You haven't even proven that multiguy is superior to straight points guy. I can easily prove that EC guy is superior to straight power guy.

 

Gary, the bottom line here is that you are unhappy with EC because each power beyond the first can be acquired at half price (a -1 limitation, for all intents and purposes), but you're OK giving a -9 limitation for each power beyond the first in an all-ultras multipower, or -4 for a variable configuration multipower. How reasonable is that?

 

We can both design constructs that show where a multi is more efficient, or where an EC is the better choice. One attack, one defense and one movement? The EC will perform. Choice between 7 attasks, 4 defenses and 3 movement powers? The Multi is the clear winner. But the issue is whether the EC is so clearly superior to the multipower that we should trash the EC point break in favour of a -1/4 limitation that the Multi Guy can also take. Your system provides the "one attack power; common special effect character" with no advantage at all. A multipower can do everything he can, altbeit with the inability to do it all at once. That gives the EC the advantage, but only where BOTH characters are designed to need to do everything all at once.

 

Let's assume MultiGuy, instead of taking a higher EB, takes a second attack to Drain - Force Field. He can do this with 4 xp (he'll make it an Ultra, 4d6, no limits). So, how's EC Man doing now? Oh, but he can buy a drain too - he only needs another 28 XP to buy a 40 point power with a -1/4 limitation.

 

Originally posted by Gary

I think it's because most GM's take steps to control their campaigns with DC caps, and limits on dex/spd of certain archetypes. Without these controls, a brick with 10 pts of martial arts, 30 dex, and 6 speed would be terrifying.

 

Or a martial artist with 30/30 resistant defenses (I've had someone present me with that construct...forget the exact DEX/SPD, but a pretty indestrictible character)

 

Originally posted by Gary

I've seen Batman with his utility belt taken away. I admit that I've never seen it destroyed. However, in Champions terms, he is vulnerable to both.

 

Depends how you build the power. He's vulnerable to having it taken away if it's an IIF, but good luck destroying it when it hides behind all that Combat Luck. That's about the extent to which it goes away in modern comics.

[Farkling]

I think it basically boils down to Gary being unhappy with the "unacceptable" point saving offered by the EC. Multi-guy can buy anything in the book as a new power, and EC guy is limited both by 3-4 times cost AND shoehorn into EC...however, Gary consistently ignores that argument in favor of his chosen method.

 

Note that his 1/4 limitation nerf of the EC basically will allow me to cram all sorts of powers into it...since there is now no "themed" concept behind it. AND I can apply it directly to my enhanced senses and skill levels and life support and ...

Doesn't particularly make a difference to me if they get drained, after all, when my powers get drained they'll be pretty much useless.

 

BUT...the 1/4 nerf kinda takes the heart out of design and building. May as well go wtih power armor, or choose not to play in Gary's games.

 

On a side note, in my worlds well thought out applications of real world physics to EC's have effect too. Lead versus the Radiation, Asbestos versus the Flame, heat/fire vs water effects...

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Gary

Badger, if you've only used 1 EC in 20 years because of difficulty of use, why wouldn't you support an alternative that's easy to use and understand with the ability to place powers of different active points in the same "structure"?

 

I'm talking about having a -1/4 "drain one drain all" limitation for all powers in the "framework".

 

Incidentally, End cost is only 8 per phase for EC dude. 1 each for flight and FF (they're 1/2 end), and 6 for EB.

 

Just because they haven't been used in my games doesn't mean I think they're broken - I just am strict on what they can do and how they're themed. Just personal preference. The limitation of drain one drain all is just a version of linked, IMO. No big deal - to me, if you drain the SFX of an MP or EC, you'll probably lose all, depends on the SFX.

 

END - rookie mistake - I counted the Red END into the active points when I figured it out. Long day.

 

Anyway, I really am curious about my other comments. Everything keeps getting focused on a straight fight. Any comments on this:

 

When mp man finishes 2 adventures he has 6 XP (for example) - he (with GMs approval) picks up an Entangle ultra slot. Mr EC lets them sit there - he'll need 5 more adventures before he can gain another slot. So who has the benefit there? According to what seems to be your default position, its still the EC guy.

 

Is that an advantage of Elemental Control Man? Or too big an advantage to the Multipower Guy (even over Straight Dude - hmm, may need to change his name). What is your opinion on that? - I really am curious.

 

Mr EC has 3 powers - flight, force field, and EB. Mr MP has Flight, Force Field, EB, Entangle, Force Wall, Telekinesis, and Flight usable on others. Now Mr MP isn't as powerful in a straight up fight. But during the fight the bad guys start blasting away at the civilians nearby. Who has the advantage? I think a force wall beats flying in front of the bullets any day.

 

You keep looking at the frameworks in one situation. Even my frameworks (especially my deliberately absurd first sample) get no mention? I feel depressed . Is it wrong to expand the concept to the game as a whole, or do we need to keep this in some kind of arena?

 

Yes, combat is central to the game (as in all RPGs, to one degree or another), but we've had games with one combat, but lots or skill use or roleplaying (tracking down a runaway while in secret ID).

 

To recap (sorta) - if EC Man has his three powers, making him the combat hog, then MP Guy has the versatility (say an 8 slot framework) to make him the pinch hitter, Skills Lad aces all the needed skill tests, while Straight Dude just kinda sits there. Maybe he can become Focus Dude next time! Kinda fits the different characters with different roles idea that seems an integral part of both comics and the genre.

 

Look at Superman and (oh no!) Batman. Can they be built on the same # of points? Probably - depends on how wild you go with skills, and how much you want to give bats for his bases/toys/etc. Will they be the same power level? Hah - let's see Batman go toe to toe with Superman (what, no kryptonite! Holy Bat Sh@%!)

 

Like the commercial says, think outside the bun. Why not design two characters. Put them in combat. Put them in a rescue situation. Put them in a "danger room" with multiple situations. Then compare. Others have posted to this same effect. As for having x number points up at once. Does a lot of good in a NND if he has no defenses for it. Every character or framework has advantages and flaws. Again, each is designed for different uses and conceptions. I have no problem leaving them as is (as I said, to me they need a strong justification concept-wise, because that's the way I feel they were designed, not because I think they are overpowered/underpriced). Just me thoughts.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Farkling

I think it basically boils down to Gary being unhappy with the "unacceptable" point saving offered by the EC. Multi-guy can buy anything in the book as a new power, and EC guy is limited both by 3-4 times cost AND shoehorn into EC...however, Gary consistently ignores that argument in favor of his chosen method.

 

Note that his 1/4 limitation nerf of the EC basically will allow me to cram all sorts of powers into it...since there is now no "themed" concept behind it. AND I can apply it directly to my enhanced senses and skill levels and life support and ...

Doesn't particularly make a difference to me if they get drained, after all, when my powers get drained they'll be pretty much useless.

 

BUT...the 1/4 nerf kinda takes the heart out of design and building. May as well go wtih power armor, or choose not to play in Gary's games.

 

On a side note, in my worlds well thought out applications of real world physics to EC's have effect too. Lead versus the Radiation, Asbestos versus the Flame, heat/fire vs water effects...

One thing about the limitations that Gary wants to apply is that certain constructs would actually be cheaper than the ECs. In an EC limitations on a single slot do not affect the base investment of the EC. Tossing down some limitations on his drain/link construct creatively will make for some serious savings. I suppose then some would complain that it is "undercosted."

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Gary

I would probably go with a -1/4. The more I think about it, the less I'm inclined to create enough drainers and suppressors to make the limitation worth a -1/2. I would set a certain minimum powers/active points before even the -1/4 kicks in.

 

Don't take this as a debating point (that's exhausted) but bear in mind that conditions might occur that have nothing to do with drainers, and don't forget that if they all go at once that is really debilitating, even if rare. Just a comment - if you don't think those points are relevant, it's your game.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Gary, the bottom line here is that you are unhappy with EC because each power beyond the first can be acquired at half price (a -1 limitation, for all intents and purposes), but you're OK giving a -9 limitation for each power beyond the first in an all-ultras multipower, or -4 for a variable configuration multipower. How reasonable is that?

(snippage)

 

Hugh, I've asked and he's answered that in almost as many words. He really believes the -9/-4 is A-OK (well, okay, not his words, but he's fine with it) whereas the -1 is not. I don't get it, either, and nothing I've seen comes close to justifying it, but c'est la vie.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by zornwil

Hugh, I've asked and he's answered that in almost as many words. He really believes the -9/-4 is A-OK (well, okay, not his words, but he's fine with it) whereas the -1 is not. I don't get it, either, and nothing I've seen comes close to justifying it, but c'est la vie.

 

I don't expect to dig Gary out of his trench. I just wanted it down in writing, where I can see it, what these limitations effectively are.

 

Gary's experience must be very different from mine. I can't conclude EC's are overly efficient compared to multipowers since I see a much higher proportion of characters with MP's than EC's.

 

Farkling, you only allow one framework. What's your experience? Forced to choose, do your players tend significantly towards MP or EC, or is it a pretty even split?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F

I don't know of any GMs who have a problem with it in general, only with abuses of it. If the GM is going to allow EC guy to have 2 defenses running at once, I very much doubt he's going to have a problem with MultiGuy having 2 defenses running at once. Obviously, the GM would not allow VPP guy to have a whackload of defenses running at once, since that would violate campaign power levels. I feel I already covered the campaign power levels issue adequately in my previous post. Perhaps you should go back and take another look?

 

Secondly, who said anything about charges lasting a day? Smoke charges lasting a few minutes are typically perfectly fine in concept, and the same holds true for most other powers using continuous charges. A few minutes is ample time for most combats, which are typically over in less than one.

 

I noticed that you just ignored the Q&A. You're espousing a GM permission power, in the same way as adding 0 end powers such as armor and damage reduction in a EC would be. If that's the case, EC guy wins easily. A multi just can't compete if the EC allows 0 end powers in it. However even under your scenario, the EC guy could just fly away under your scenario for a few minutes and let the charges run out.

 

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

Oh sure. Maybe if EC Guy catches MultiGuy by surprise. Given the converse situation, forget it. Even in just an open field battle with reasonably clear sight lines, it will take EC Guy enough time to get into attack range at 16" of movement per phase that MultiGuy will have ample time to get his powers going. Don't most supers KNOW when they are going after a villain, have a reasonable idea of where the target is, and have enough forewarning of when the battle is about to start to get their powers up? Unless we're talking an ambush scenario, your argument doesn't wash. All Multiguy needs is a few seconds and he's set, how hard is that?

 

 

That's your ambush scenario. Not very heroic, or in keeping with what I know about comics.

 

Try this one. Multi Guy is trying to perform some task in the warehouse district, and EC Guy is trying to stop him, but only knows the general area Multi Guy's in, so EC guy's looking for him. Multi Guy sees EC Guy coming just about the same time that EC Guy spots him, a hundred meters away -- not that far, across a football field. While EC Guy is trying to get in range for a shot without leaving himself vulnerable, Multi Guy takes a few seconds to prepare for the upcoming fight. First he blankets the area in fog so EC Guy won't know exactly where he is, then summons his pets. By the time EC Guy shows up at close range and starts looking for Multi Guy, those 4 pets are there harassing him. At this point either Multi Guy can finish what he was doing if his pets have the situation in hand, or he can focus on EC Guy if he needs to. EC Guy can't match that kind of tactical flexibility, 'cause he simply doesn't have the powers to do so.

 

Or how about this one. EC Guy and Multi Guy meet in a bar. Things get off to a bad start and insults get exchanged. Both sides start activating defensive powers. MultiGuy summons his buddies to back him up. Trash talk keeps flying. Suddenly, one guy gets pushed over the edge, and strikes the first blow.

 

Even supposing EC Guy does manage to ambush Multi Guy, surely he's not going to shoot without giving a warning first, if we're talking heroic combat here? That warning would likely be enough to let MultiGuy turn up his defenses and try to duck behind cover. EC Guy would get his attack off, but not before the defenses went up, and assuming EC Guy wasn't able to KO Multi Guy in one shot, by the time EC guy was able to work around the cover, Multi Guy will have bought himself enough time to get the rest of his powers up and running. How many times do we see someone duck behind a corner and change a clip? This scenario operates on a similar principle, except that changing a clip takes a full phase, and things like change environment and summon don't; Multi Guy can keep on the move if necessary until such time as he's ready to stand and fight.

 

I'd consider any of those scenarios a lot more typical than your version of the ambush scenario. Not to say that ambushes can't happen, but arguing that EC guy is better than Multi Guy simply because he has an advantage in a surprise attack is kind of silly. Of course he has an advantage in an ambush, anybody would!

 

It's also worth noting that EC Guy can recover more easily from being ambushed. While that's true enough, it doesn't strike me as enough of an advantage to say that an EC is in general overpowered. It's one of those tradeoffs this thread has been talking about -- EC Guy is giving up flexibility (and a LOT of it) and vulnerability to "drain one drain all" for being ready to go at a moment's notice. Not for raw power -- Multi Guy can easily match him there, with the right power constructs. Just for the ability to be ready instantly, without requiring a few seconds to "set up" for a fight.

 

Not worth it in my book. It might be in someone else's book. Either way, it's certainly not obviously imbalanced in one direction or the other.

 

You appear to think that extra time to activate a power isn't really worth a limitation. If that's the case, I'll take a -1/4 limitation for full phase to turn on for my flight, mystery defense, and utility power. If it doesn't hinder you, it's only fair that it doesn't hinder me either. I could convincingly argue for a -1/2 limitation, since your extra powers take 2 full phases and locks out your regular attack and defenses in the process, but I'll be conservative.

 

With a -1/4 on 3 slots, I save 12 pts. Which 12 pts worth of slots are you going to remove from your multipower? It would be 21 pts worth of slots if I gave it a -1/2 limitation. There goes a bunch of your continuing charges powers.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Gary, the bottom line here is that you are unhappy with EC because each power beyond the first can be acquired at half price (a -1 limitation, for all intents and purposes), but you're OK giving a -9 limitation for each power beyond the first in an all-ultras multipower, or -4 for a variable configuration multipower. How reasonable is that?

 

Very reasonable. The multi can use only reserve points at a time. The EC has no restrictions whatsoever.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

We can both design constructs that show where a multi is more efficient, or where an EC is the better choice. One attack, one defense and one movement? The EC will perform. Choice between 7 attasks, 4 defenses and 3 movement powers? The Multi is the clear winner. But the issue is whether the EC is so clearly superior to the multipower that we should trash the EC point break in favour of a -1/4 limitation that the Multi Guy can also take. Your system provides the "one attack power; common special effect character" with no advantage at all. A multipower can do everything he can, altbeit with the inability to do it all at once. That gives the EC the advantage, but only where BOTH characters are designed to need to do everything all at once.

 

How about one movement, one defense, one utility power, and 7 attacks? The EC + Multi would be better than just multi alone. I think I've convincingly shown that (EC > straight power), and (straight power approximately = multipower). As far as the multi taking the limitation, that's ok because it's a real limitation. If the outside power is drained/suppressed, the entire multipower is as well. If the multipower or any of its slots are drained/suppressed, all the outside powers are as well. The multi has a new level of vulnerability that it didn't have before taking this limitation.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Let's assume MultiGuy, instead of taking a higher EB, takes a second attack to Drain - Force Field. He can do this with 4 xp (he'll make it an Ultra, 4d6, no limits). So, how's EC Man doing now? Oh, but he can buy a drain too - he only needs another 28 XP to buy a 40 point power with a -1/4 limitation.

 

As I said previously, there is nothing stopping a EC guy from buying a multipower as well.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Or a martial artist with 30/30 resistant defenses (I've had someone present me with that construct...forget the exact DEX/SPD, but a pretty indestrictible character)

 

From my point of view, this is less abusive. Let's take a brick and martial artist. They both buy 30 dex and 6 spd, so the points even out here. The brick buys +50 str for a total of 60 and 10 pts of martial arts for a total of 60 pts. The MA buys +10 str for a total of 20, the same 10 pts of maneuvers, +8 DC, and +8 PD (I think everybody would agree that any MA would buy at least another 8 PD anyway) for a total of 60 pts.

 

Now both of them have the same OCV/DCV, the same PD, the same Spd, the same damage, and the same access to martial maneuvers. However, the brick has an extra +8 Rec, +20 stun, +8" leap, the ability to use cars and trucks as free area effects, and +20 casual str vs weak entangles and grabs. The MA's only advantage is he pays 2 end per phase rather than 6. It's a decent advantage, but the brick's +8 rec partially mitigates it, and it just doesn't come close to stacking up to what the brick gets.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Depends how you build the power. He's vulnerable to having it taken away if it's an IIF, but good luck destroying it when it hides behind all that Combat Luck. That's about the extent to which it goes away in modern comics.

 

It would still be possible to do so, especially if the enemy specifically plans for it. That's a vulnerability that people with natural powers don't have.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Farkling

I think it basically boils down to Gary being unhappy with the "unacceptable" point saving offered by the EC. Multi-guy can buy anything in the book as a new power, and EC guy is limited both by 3-4 times cost AND shoehorn into EC...however, Gary consistently ignores that argument in favor of his chosen method.

 

Note that his 1/4 limitation nerf of the EC basically will allow me to cram all sorts of powers into it...since there is now no "themed" concept behind it. AND I can apply it directly to my enhanced senses and skill levels and life support and ...

Doesn't particularly make a difference to me if they get drained, after all, when my powers get drained they'll be pretty much useless.

 

BUT...the 1/4 nerf kinda takes the heart out of design and building. May as well go wtih power armor, or choose not to play in Gary's games.

 

On a side note, in my worlds well thought out applications of real world physics to EC's have effect too. Lead versus the Radiation, Asbestos versus the Flame, heat/fire vs water effects...

 

You still have to justify why draining one power would drain all of them simutaneously in order to get the limitation. After all, it's not likely that draining flash defense will drain your batarangs. And like every single power ever created in Champions, it still has to be justified in terms of special effects.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X

One thing about the limitations that Gary wants to apply is that certain constructs would actually be cheaper than the ECs. In an EC limitations on a single slot do not affect the base investment of the EC. Tossing down some limitations on his drain/link construct creatively will make for some serious savings. I suppose then some would complain that it is "undercosted."

 

I'd like for you to show me exactly how it's possible for a -1/4 drain one drain all limitation to save points over a standard EC if both structures have otherwise equal outside limitatons. One simple example will do.

[Gary]

Originally posted by zornwil

Don't take this as a debating point (that's exhausted) but bear in mind that conditions might occur that have nothing to do with drainers, and don't forget that if they all go at once that is really debilitating, even if rare. Just a comment - if you don't think those points are relevant, it's your game.

 

No different from a power with "does not work in high magnetic fields" for -1/4. It's worth -1/4, but not more than that even though when it does occur, it's really debilitating.

[Gary]

Here's an example of a character I actually ran for a few years. This character combined the efficiencies of characteristics with that of EC's. This has been edited for 5th edition and 350 pts with a 60 pt DC cap. I'm doing this from memory since I don't have a character sheet in front of me. She was a great character.

 

I don't claim that this is the most efficient way to build a character, but I'm sure most people would agree that she is an efficient character.

 

Lariat

Ann Bowen

 

60 Str 50

30 Dex 60

33 Con 46

10 Body 0

18 Int 8

14 Ego 8

15 Pre 5

22 Com 6

12 PD 0

12 ED 5

6 SPD 20

15 Rec -8

66 End 0

57 Stun 0

 

200 characteristics cost

 

5 Extra limbs (force tendrils)

 

15 EC force tendrils

15 12/12 force field 1/2 end

13 5" stretching 1/2 end no noncombat stretching (-1/4)

15 24" leap 1/2 end (36" total)

10 missile deflection all with +5 to roll cost end (-1/2)

9 360 degree spatial awareness +1 to perception roll cost end (-1/2) range limited to stretching (-1/4) touch sense group

 

16 8/8 armor OIF costume

 

7 explosion on 60 str personal immunity on explosion X10 end cost (-4) (emergency power)

 

105 powers cost

 

Martial arts

5 Defensive Strike 12d6

3 Martial Grab 70 str

3 Martial Throw 12d6 + v/5

6 2 levels with MA

 

3 Acrobatics

3 Breakfall

 

23 pts combat skills

 

22 pts noncombat skills and perks

 

Total OCV/DCV of 10 with 2 levels. 32/32 def, 20 resistent.

 

 

She is a mutant who is superstrong, agile, and fast. She has the mutant power to convert her internal str into energy tendrils that can be used for a wide variety of effects. These energy tendrils can be manipulated by her as if they were an extension of herself. She can use them to cover her body (FF), push against the ground to travel far distances (superleap), make attacks and use fine manipulation at up to 10 meters away (stretching), block attacks (missile deflection), and she can use them to "feel" around her in a 10 meter radius (spatial awareness).

 

In emergencies, she can crack these tendrils almost like a whip, causing a massive sonic boom. She rarely does this as it is extremely debilitating (40 end for the explosion, 6 end for str, and 1 end for stretching for a total of 47 end spent!) and the property damage that is certain to arise from its use. However if pressed to use the attack, she normally tries to find a way to haymaker it. (18d6 explosion under 4th edition rules, 16d6 explosion under 5th edition). She can crack her sonic boom up to 10 meters away from herself.

 

In combat, she usually uses her defensive strike or grab. She can grab or strike from 10 meters away. If she grabs an opponent and thinks the opponent can take the damage, she does a superleap piledriver (martial throw) for 19d6 damage. She has also been known to use tough grabbed opponents as shields with her missile deflection.

 

Notes

Defensive strike is the best maneuver if you have a DC cap, combined with maxing strength.

 

The absolute best maneuver would be passing strike, but no sane GM would allow someone with 60 str and 36" leap to take it.

 

Some GM's might actually allow her explosion to be placed in the EC since it fits the special effect and obviously is based on control of her force tendrils. If the GM allows naked power advantages in the EC, you can reduce the cost of the explosion from 7 to 4.

 

Appearance:

 

She is a beautiful woman in her late 20's with shoulder length dark hair (the actress I used for her was Mitzi Kapture from the show Silk Stalkings). She usually wears a mask when she appears as Lariat to hide her secret ID.

 

Profession:

 

She is the owner of Bowen Industries, a huge conglomerate that specializes in fashion. A very lucrative part of her business is making protective clothing of a special patented nature that feels like regular clothing, but protects like kevlar.

[Gary]

Originally posted by badger3k

Just because they haven't been used in my games doesn't mean I think they're broken - I just am strict on what they can do and how they're themed. Just personal preference. The limitation of drain one drain all is just a version of linked, IMO. No big deal - to me, if you drain the SFX of an MP or EC, you'll probably lose all, depends on the SFX.

 

I don't mean any offense, but when a framework is used only once in 20 years, it is a sign that you consider them "broken". If you didn't have serious concerns about something, they would be used more often.

 

Originally posted by badger3k

END - rookie mistake - I counted the Red END into the active points when I figured it out. Long day.

 

Anyway, I really am curious about my other comments. Everything keeps getting focused on a straight fight. Any comments on this:

 

I'll try my best.

 

Originally posted by badger3k

Is that an advantage of Elemental Control Man? Or too big an advantage to the Multipower Guy (even over Straight Dude - hmm, may need to change his name). What is your opinion on that? - I really am curious.

 

EC guy still has the ability to buy a multipower and add cheap slots as well. Even just sticking to just ECs and Multis, the ability to have an additional power active at once without sacrificing other powers is worth something. I and the other posters on this thread merely disagree on how much that "something" is.

 

 

Originally posted by badger3k

You keep looking at the frameworks in one situation. Even my frameworks (especially my deliberately absurd first sample) get no mention? I feel depressed . Is it wrong to expand the concept to the game as a whole, or do we need to keep this in some kind of arena?

 

Yes, combat is central to the game (as in all RPGs, to one degree or another), but we've had games with one combat, but lots or skill use or roleplaying (tracking down a runaway while in secret ID).

 

I'm looking at stuff that pretty much all characters would want up at the same time. At the very least a defense and movement. Sometimes an attack, additional defense, or utility power. I think it's fair to compare the EC which allows all that at the same time vs a multi which only allows a limited amount up at once.

 

Originally posted by badger3k

To recap (sorta) - if EC Man has his three powers, making him the combat hog, then MP Guy has the versatility (say an 8 slot framework) to make him the pinch hitter, Skills Lad aces all the needed skill tests, while Straight Dude just kinda sits there. Maybe he can become Focus Dude next time! Kinda fits the different characters with different roles idea that seems an integral part of both comics and the genre.

 

EC Man totally destroys Straight Dude. Nobody denies that. Skills Dude is just another version of Straight Dude, and would face the same disadvantages. Multipower Dude if he doesn't have a EC, is competitive with Straight Dude. He's more flexible, but Straight Dude probably has a higher attack and more points of defenses and movements up at the same time. Focus Dude is extremely powerful, but a certain percentage of the time, he'll be SOL. This is just my analysis.

 

Originally posted by badger3k

Look at Superman and (oh no!) Batman. Can they be built on the same # of points? Probably - depends on how wild you go with skills, and how much you want to give bats for his bases/toys/etc. Will they be the same power level? Hah - let's see Batman go toe to toe with Superman (what, no kryptonite! Holy Bat Sh@%!)

 

Like the commercial says, think outside the bun. Why not design two characters. Put them in combat. Put them in a rescue situation. Put them in a "danger room" with multiple situations. Then compare. Others have posted to this same effect. As for having x number points up at once. Does a lot of good in a NND if he has no defenses for it. Every character or framework has advantages and flaws. Again, each is designed for different uses and conceptions. I have no problem leaving them as is (as I said, to me they need a strong justification concept-wise, because that's the way I feel they were designed, not because I think they are overpowered/underpriced). Just me thoughts.

 

This is a horrible example for a gaming group. In combat, any opponent powerful enough to threaten Superman would kill Batman in one hit. Any villain that's competitive with Batman would last only 1 phase vs Superman. The only way a group with this much disparity works is with lots of GM fudging. I'm speaking personal experience from being in groups with "haves" and "have nots". Most characters should be relatively equal within a certain range in combat. I think it would be frustrating if you're knocked out in the first phase of every combat, even if you have lots of noncombat time. And I would think it would be just as frustrating to do all the work in combat, but get virtually no noncombat airtime either. What may work well in a comic book probably doesn't work in a real gaming group with real people. A certain amount of balance is needed. I hope this lecture didn't sound too pompous.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Gary

No different from a power with "does not work in high magnetic fields" for -1/4. It's worth -1/4, but not more than that even though when it does occur, it's really debilitating.

 

Well, not "no different" in that you'll have half or more of your power base sunk into that -1/4. The drawback of any EC design (and now I don't mean the framework, I mean the actual elemenatl notion) is that you rely pretty heavily on it, to the point where you're usually "half a man" when your basic schtick get hosed.

 

I'm not debating you on whether it should be -1/4, just wanting to be clear on my point here as to what concern I'm raising. As a player, with half my powers "does not work in high magnetic fields" and considering that most villains will figure that out after a few adventures, I would have concerns. Of course you're the GM, so if you make it 1/4 and are consciously keeping its real effect at that, great, no problem.

[Gary]

Originally posted by zornwil

Hugh, I've asked and he's answered that in almost as many words. He really believes the -9/-4 is A-OK (well, okay, not his words, but he's fine with it) whereas the -1 is not. I don't get it, either, and nothing I've seen comes close to justifying it, but c'est la vie.

 

Zornwill, perhaps an example will make my point clear. Which do you think is better, 12d6 EB or a 50 pt multipower with 10d6 EB and 3d6+1 RKA? Both cost the same points, and both have their advantages and disadvantages. The 12d6 will do more stun and knockback on the average, but the multipower has flexibility when dealing with unarmored targets and when hoping for a stun lotto. It's not obvious which one is better, and thus the -9 limitation seems to be roughly the "right" value for a slot.

 

Now take a case where you want multiple powers up at the same time.

 

A has 20" flight and 20/20 FF for 80 pts paid straight. (I'll ignore end for the sake of convenience)

 

B has a flexible multipower for the same 80 pts. He has:

 

58 Multipower reserve

11m 28" flight

11m 28/28 FF

 

 

Which is better? The multipower can have a higher defense or a higher movement, but he's really sacrificing if he maxes one out. He's 22 pts short of Straight Power Dude. Again it's not obvious which one is better. This again is a good indication that -4 is the right ballpark for the value of the limitation.

[Farkling]

/QUOTE HUGH/

"Farkling, you only allow one framework. What's your experience? Forced to choose, do your players tend significantly towards MP or EC, or is it a pretty even split?"

/ENDQUOTE/

 

I'm breaking some fledgling players of the "Multipower Attacks" framework with the "EC/Movement" Framework...that's how they were taught by the GM they deplaned from. They did NOT understand how their powers worked with the old GM.

 

Original Writeups::

(3) EC's Weather, Divine Might, Mentatics (heavily limited for point saves)

(1) Straight MA/SKills combo. Cyborg.

(1) Straight Brick/MA combo. Mutant. (Player NEW to Champs)

(1) "My favorite comic character is Rogue from the old cartoons. Mostly Invulnerable is a cool power"

 

Complete Writeups::

(1) EC :: Weather. She was dead set on it and understands how it works completely. Power for Slow Growth was fine. "I'm a roleplayer...not a combat monster"

(1) Multipower : Divine Might. (with the dreaded delayed activation). Blanket limit for the MP is the delayed activation. Prayer did not require ACTUAL gestures or incantations as originally designed. Just time for a short plea to the powers that be. Delayed Activation seemed a nice substitute. He has purchased (3) flavor powers now. Blessings (Aid), Divine Will (Healing), and A Transfrom to make holy ground...

(1) Multipower : Psychic. Original draft had a great deal of clunky limitations and was actually two shoehorned EC's. No more than 3 of them were designed to work in conjunction. Pushing the Mind Scan outside the MP and dumping most of his powers into a MP was much more pleasant to him, and did not require the heaviliy limited powers. He is happily buying new powers every other game session.

(1) Martial Arts/Skills combo. After original draft showed what powers/char's were cybernetic, I gave him limitation. Cybernetics are a common thread in 2020. Afterwards, he converted his gun and movement abilities to a Multipower of cybernetic ranged abilities and transportation.

(1) Martial Arts/Brick combo. He is slowly buying what looks like an EC with his experience. Electrically based.

(1) BRICK...Purchased flat and simple for a good roleplayer with NO head for game mechanics. 60 STR, 50 CON, Resistant Defenses exeeding the Campaign limits slightly, 3d6 Luck, X-Ray vision, Professional gambler and amateur linguist. So far she's been THE vibrant character and gotten XP bonuses from the GROUP. She very much understands the world of cardboard and styrofoam analogy.

 

 

Is that answer complete enough Hugh?

 

The (6) SuperSpies in the other game cannot have frameworks (though one or two may grow into them)...

If they DID...I would have two Multi's and an EC...possibly a third Multi, possibly not.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Gary

Zornwill, perhaps an example will make my point clear. Which do you think is better, 12d6 EB or a 50 pt multipower with 10d6 EB and 3d6+1 RKA? Both cost the same points, and both have their advantages and disadvantages. The 12d6 will do more stun and knockback on the average, but the multipower has flexibility when dealing with unarmored targets and when hoping for a stun lotto. It's not obvious which one is better, and thus the -9 limitation seems to be roughly the "right" value for a slot.

 

Now take a case where you want multiple powers up at the same time.

 

A has 20" flight and 20/20 FF for 80 pts paid straight. (I'll ignore end for the sake of convenience)

 

B has a flexible multipower for the same 80 pts. He has:

 

58 Multipower reserve

11m 28" flight

11m 28/28 FF

 

 

Which is better? The multipower can have a higher defense or a higher movement, but he's really sacrificing if he maxes one out. He's 22 pts short of Straight Power Dude. Again it's not obvious which one is better. This again is a good indication that -4 is the right ballpark for the value of the limitation.

 

I didn't bring this up to debate you, just answering Hugh prematurely.

 

No, let's leave it at we're not about to see eye to eye on that. As stated, I have respect for your approach.

[Farkling]

For the record...I've PLAYED with multiple frameworks, and an enforced Multipower <=> EC <=> special effects related. In 5th edition, that would equate to MPower drained as EC drained as an automatic limitation (enforced as a -0 limit). We spoke about it at one point.

 

Myself...I might charge an Advantage on each framework if multiples exist. I might even charge a larger advantage price on a "divergent" special effects framework. I really think multiple frameworks are open for abuse in a standard superhero game. Gut instinct backed up by all this number crunching I've seen. Thanks Hugh....you old softie.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary

I'd like for you to show me exactly how it's possible for a -1/4 drain one drain all limitation to save points over a standard EC if both structures have otherwise equal outside limitatons. One simple example will do.

You wanna go with a 1/4 drain limitation? not a 1/2? Okay, that would be harder to do.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Farkling

For the record...I've PLAYED with multiple frameworks, and an enforced Multipower <=> EC <=> special effects related. In 5th edition, that would equate to MPower drained as EC drained as an automatic limitation (enforced as a -0 limit). We spoke about it at one point.

 

Myself...I might charge an Advantage on each framework if multiples exist. I might even charge a larger advantage price on a "divergent" special effects framework. I really think multiple frameworks are open for abuse in a standard superhero game. Gut instinct backed up by all this number crunching I've seen. Thanks Hugh....you old softie.

I think most things in the game are open to abuse. I get tired of "pet peeves" though. I gotta tell you you're going to turn off some mighty fine gamers out there. If I walked into a room and you guys were recruiting players and started in on what you don't like, and won't accept, about the game, I would walk out. I'm pretty sure there are quite a few other people who would do the same. It tells me I have to worry about "surprises." In my experience, GMs who are fairly restrictive in construction, a la changing fundamental rules, tend to be controlling in role play. That may not be you, but I wouldn't invest the time to find out. There are other games to play.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

I noticed that you just ignored the Q&A. You're espousing a GM permission power, in the same way as adding 0 end powers such as armor and damage reduction in a EC would be. If that's the case, EC guy wins easily. A multi just can't compete if the EC allows 0 end powers in it. However even under your scenario, the EC guy could just fly away under your scenario for a few minutes and let the charges run out.

 

"As the brave and heroic EC Man fled, the villainous MultiMan proceeded to steal the Crown Jewels and make good his escape. Film at 11"

 

Unless the opponent's primary or only goal is taking you down, they can easily succeed if you don't show up. How many scenarios (or comic plots) are based around various means of ensuring the heroes will be otherwise occupied while the villains achieve their goals? "Oh, just create an illusion of the guy activating a bunch of energy fields as EC Man flies in. He'll be out of there so fast you won't believe it."

 

An unfortunate fact of Player Characterhood is that you are far more often reacting to the opposition's plays than calling your own. If you're prepared to abandon the filed for a turn or two, that generally works quite well for them. Commonly, they were hoping you wouldn't show up in the first place anyway.

 

Originally posted by Gary

You appear to think that extra time to activate a power isn't really worth a limitation. If that's the case, I'll take a -1/4 limitation for full phase to turn on for my flight, mystery defense, and utility power. If it doesn't hinder you, it's only fair that it doesn't hinder me either. I could convincingly argue for a -1/2 limitation, since your extra powers take 2 full phases and locks out your regular attack and defenses in the process, but I'll be conservative.

 

With a -1/4 on 3 slots, I save 12 pts. Which 12 pts worth of slots are you going to remove from your multipower? It would be 21 pts worth of slots if I gave it a -1/2 limitation. There goes a bunch of your continuing charges powers.

 

Ummm...seems to me he acknowledged it is a limitation - in an ambush, the character has a serious problem. I'd say an ambush is as common as having the villains take away my Magic Underwear IIF that grants all my superpowers quietly, from the background, or catching me outside my Hero ID. A 15- activation roll fails less than 5% of the time. All of these are -1/4 - a slight limitation on the power. Some come into play less frequently and have failry substantial consequences. Others (15- Act) come into play more often - 1 use in 20 - but have less severe implications (OK, I miss one shot). All are pretty minor limitations.

 

For that matter, you don't seem to believe a lot of adjustment powers have a significant impact on people with EC's, yet you're still granting -1/4 for that restriction under your model. Presumably because it will happen sometimes, so it is at least a bit limiting. Or do you plan to redesign your campaign world and add a lot more characters with adjustment powers?

[Hugh Neilson]

I said:

 

Gary, the bottom line here is that you are unhappy with EC because each power beyond the first can be acquired at half price (a -1 limitation, for all intents and purposes), but you're OK giving a -9 limitation for each power beyond the first in an all-ultras multipower, or -4 for a variable configuration multipower. How reasonable is that?

 

Originally posted by Gary

Very reasonable. The multi can use only reserve points at a time. The EC has no restrictions whatsoever.

 

Let's make that a "multipower Classic" - the 90 point one with a 60 reserve and 5 Ultra attack slots. The character can only use one attack slot at a time. But he can only attack once per phase anyway. The only thing he loses is multiple power attacks. Powers in an EC can't be used for multiple power attacks anyway.

 

Pay 90 points for those 5 attacks in a multipower, or pay double for all 5 in an EC. Or nerf both constructs and paty 300 points - over 3 times as much - for the privilege of multiple power attacking. Can I have a -2 limitation on my attack powers for "can't multiple power attack"? NO. Can I put all my attacks in a multipower and save more than the -2 would have given me? SURE

 

Now let's get back to your pet peeve - limitation stacking. We'll make the powers all come from OAF - Gun. So the multipower costs 45. If I get the -2 limitation instead, each power costs 15 (including the OAF), so I pay 75 in total. Your concern is that EC's "give points for free". How is this different?

 

Originally posted by Gary

It would still be possible to do so, especially if the enemy specifically plans for it. That's a vulnerability that people with natural powers don't have.

 

Yes. Much less likely that your assertion that the belt is easily (and therefore should be commonly) destroyed, though. It's now a lot tougher, since I have to overcome Batman's combat luck, plus the belt's defenses. And the belt, by virtue of smaller size, has a better DCV than Batman. I'd really rather take him out than just take out his belt if I'm lucky enough to connect. Which probably explains why most opponents don't go after the belt - especially when the belt's contents are principally geared for non-combat matters anyway, with a few notable exceptions like the Batarang (which I'm not sure is even in "the belt" - he always seems to have one, so it may just be "restrainable".