5th Ed: Flying Dodge

[SteveZilla]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

And using a Dodge keeps the character from using any attack during the same Phase.

 

True, but being able to attack while doing X was not part of the discussion iirc. "Regular" dodges prevent movement during that half-phase. Iirc, Flying dodge *includes* it.

[secretID]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Breaks haymakers?

• DFC = yes
  
• Flying Dodge = yes
  
• Desol = No
  

Why wouldn't desol break a haymaker - i.e., if it's activated between the start of the haymaker and when it lands?

Did I miss anything?

Desol generally completely prevents a ranged attack, while DFC and FD just add a range penalty - i.e., you're not allowed to use the movement portion to duck around a corner, IIRC.

As for flying dodge' date=' I seem to recall Steve saying something to the effect that so long as the special effects and timing allow, the Flying Dodge is a dodging action and thus can be continued until the person doing the flying dodge runs out of movement.[/quote']

That's totally nuts, IMO.

The way I've typically handled Flying Dodge is to allow movement as part of it only if you don't Abort (e.g. you do it with a normal action or a held Phase).

The problem with that is that aborting isn't as important as it seems. If you're willing to hold your first action in a fight, you essentially keep an action in your pocket the whole fight to use as a de facto abort instead of literally aborting.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

The problem with that is that aborting isn't as important as it seems. If you're willing to hold your first action in a fight' date=' you essentially keep an action in your pocket the whole fight to use as a de facto abort instead of literally aborting.[/quote']

Why is that a problem? If anyone has a higher SPD or even a higher DEX on the same SPD they still go before you, so you won't always have a held action. If you have the highest SPD and DEX in the campaign, well than you paid for it so why/how is that particular strategy inherently a problem?

[Fireg0lem]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Here's what we made as our Flying Dodge houserule. We've found it to still be a good maneuver on fast characters. I have repeatadly observed the "auto-avoid melee attacks" portion of un-houseruled flying dodge to be way, way overpowered every time I've seen a character both (a) have flying dodge and ( know that you could use it to auto-avoid melee attacks.

 

Case 1: You are using Flying Dodge as an aborted action

Step 1: You gain all benefits of Flying Dodge, including extra DCV, linked powers, reassigned CSLs, et cetera, but don't move yet.

Step 2: Fully resolve all non-area-of-effect attacks targeted at you.

Step 3: If you were not in the area of any area-of-effect attacks, go to step 5. If you were, then you make a DEX roll; for every 1 point you succeed by, you may take up to 2m of your movement immediately. Note that your DEX and/or movement may have been reduced in step 2.

Step 4: Resolve all Area of Effect attacks whose area you were in.

Step 5: Take any movement not used up in step 3. Note that your DEX and/or movement may have been reduced in steps 2 and 4.

Case 2: You are using Flying Dodge as a held action

In this case, treat Flying Dodge exactly as if you used your held action to move for all purposes (including needing to make a Dexterity/Ego roll to move first), except that you also gain the defensive benefits (per step 1 above) of flying dodge immediately (before rolled-off actions resolve).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

I'm going to reference a familiar source for some: JLU:Animated

 

 

AFAIK, in this series:

1. The only time Superman missed with HTH attacks were when foes obviously 'blocked' (example: fight with Wonder Woman, Mongul, Darksied, etc..) or when the target obviously 'dodged' (example: Amazo 'dodged' a 'movethrough' attack from Superman in their first encounter). I have modeled this in HERO with Hand To Hand Attack with the AOE 1 Hex Accurate Advantage.

2. No one was ever able to hit Flash in HTH combat unless he was surprised. This holds true even if it was giant robots trying to stomp him (see the 1st episode of the series).

 

Based on this, I believe Flash (and other speedsters of his caliber like Reverse Flash) would be the only characters that would be allowed to purchase a Flying Dodge Martial Maneuver.

 

It's not a matter of whether the maneuver is too powerful or not. It's a question of whether the character a player wants to give it to is truly a dedicated speedster in same league as Flash, Quicksilver, Northstar, etc... .

 

Another way of looking at is the old argument about HERO not doing 'absolutes' very well.

Mechanically, this is mostly true. Absolutes are campaign specific. Flying Dodge has some absolute effects and as such should be considered for inclusion in a campaign in the same manner as any other 'absolute effect'.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

After reading all the posts, I going to say that the biggest complaint against the flying dodge (I feel), is the automatically miss in hand to hand combat. I believe the easiest house rule is to allow the attacker a chance to hit the defender (though still give the defender the +4 bonus to dcv). Most times, this will still be a moot point, but at least it will take away from the automatic miss from h-t-h.

[secretID]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Why is that a problem? If anyone has a higher SPD or even a higher DEX on the same SPD they still go before you' date=' so you won't always have a held action. If you have the highest SPD and DEX in the campaign, well than you paid for it so why/how is that particular strategy inherently a problem?[/quote']

I don't have a huge problem with Flying Dodge, and I wasn't arguing for a change. I think it's the best martial maneuver and that's it's underpriced, but I haven't felt the need for a house rule yet.

 

I was commenting on someone else's proposed adjustment. I was just pointing out that it wouldn't actually change that much because of the loophole that the player could de facto abort without ever literally aborting.

[secretID]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Here's what we made as our Flying Dodge houserule. We've found it to still be a good maneuver on fast characters. I have repeatadly observed the "auto-avoid melee attacks" portion of un-houseruled flying dodge to be way, way overpowered every time I've seen a character both (a) have flying dodge and ( know that you could use it to auto-avoid melee attacks.

 

Case 1: You are using Flying Dodge as an aborted action

Step 1: You gain all benefits of Flying Dodge, including extra DCV, linked powers, reassigned CSLs, et cetera, but don't move yet.

Step 2: Fully resolve all non-area-of-effect attacks targeted at you.

Step 3: If you were not in the area of any area-of-effect attacks, go to step 5. If you were, then you make a DEX roll; for every 1 point you succeed by, you may take up to 2m of your movement immediately. Note that your DEX and/or movement may have been reduced in step 2.

Step 4: Resolve all Area of Effect attacks whose area you were in.

Step 5: Take any movement not used up in step 3. Note that your DEX and/or movement may have been reduced in steps 2 and 4.

Case 2: You are using Flying Dodge as a held action

In this case, treat Flying Dodge exactly as if you used your held action to move for all purposes (including needing to make a Dexterity/Ego roll to move first), except that you also gain the defensive benefits (per step 1 above) of flying dodge immediately (before rolled-off actions resolve).

If it becomes a problem, I'll probably do something close to this. I would simplify and just say that whenever FD is interrupting an attack, there's a DEX context to use the movement part of FD.

 

There's a speedster in my campaign who uses FD to great effect. He holds every action until just before his next scheduled action, so he always has an action in his pocket to use for FD. He's virtually unhittable as a result, but it hasn't been a problem b/c he isn't an offensive powerhouse. As I think about it, it makes the team more powerful (b/c enemies waste actions) w/o making the character seem overpowering because he's not knocking enemies out left and right.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

I'm going to reference a familiar source for some: JLU:Animated

 

 

AFAIK, in this series:

1. The only time Superman missed with HTH attacks were when foes obviously 'blocked' (example: fight with Wonder Woman, Mongul, Darksied, etc..) or when the target obviously 'dodged' (example: Amazo 'dodged' a 'movethrough' attack from Superman in their first encounter). I have modeled this in HERO with Hand To Hand Attack with the AOE 1 Hex Accurate Advantage.

2. No one was ever able to hit Flash in HTH combat unless he was surprised. This holds true even if it was giant robots trying to stomp him (see the 1st episode of the series).

 

Based on this, I believe Flash (and other speedsters of his caliber like Reverse Flash) would be the only characters that would be allowed to purchase a Flying Dodge Martial Maneuver.

 

It's not a matter of whether the maneuver is too powerful or not. It's a question of whether the character a player wants to give it to is truly a dedicated speedster in same league as Flash, Quicksilver, Northstar, etc... .

 

Another way of looking at is the old argument about HERO not doing 'absolutes' very well.

Mechanically, this is mostly true. Absolutes are campaign specific. Flying Dodge has some absolute effects and as such should be considered for inclusion in a campaign in the same manner as any other 'absolute effect'.

Eh. The Flash could easily also have a form of Desolidification for which the common form of attack that can still hit him is an attack that he's not aware of and thus can't, "dodge."

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Eh. The Flash could easily also have a form of Desolidification for which the common form of attack that can still hit him is an attack that he's not aware of and thus can't' date=' "dodge."[/quote']

 

...And I've seen that type of build in published and other poster's characters (like Always from the New Circle). However, I've always looked at that type of 'evasion sfx' interpretation of Desolidification as less elegant than Flying Dodge because it gives no good explanation for why an attack with the Affects Desolidification Advantage should be somehow become more 'accurate' and able to hit him more easily.

 

And if the response is something like "the affects desol Advantage needs a sfx too" then you are just making a different and more complicated absolute effect campaign house rule than 'vanilla' Flying Dodge. If the character has a multipower the desol will cost 4-5 real points for the slot (and NO additional points if the character has a VPP).

[prestidigitator]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

There are plenty of Desolidification builds for which every Affects Desolidified power affecting them would be stupid. I don't like getting held back by that. I also rarely build an Affects Desolidified power without somehow limiting the SFX of Desolidification it will counter. To each his own.

[dmjalund]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

...And I've seen that type of build in published and other poster's characters (like Always from the New Circle). However, I've always looked at that type of 'evasion sfx' interpretation of Desolidification as less elegant than Flying Dodge because it gives no good explanation for why an attack with the Affects Desolidification Advantage should be somehow become more 'accurate' and able to hit him more easily.

 

And if the response is something like "the affects desol Advantage needs a sfx too" then you are just making a different and more complicated absolute effect campaign house rule than 'vanilla' Flying Dodge. If the character has a multipower the desol will cost 4-5 real points for the slot (and NO additional points if the character has a VPP).

This is just the result of making things effect based.