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Sir Ofeelya

Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I don't think that it occurred to them the ridiculous extremes players would take the open ended disad rules to. I always got the feeling that the original campaigns had a soft point limit that the players just "knew". I think that George was surprised by how players would come up with 400 pts or more in disads to pay for characters with crazy amounts of powers/ and power level. Remember they really didn't give any guidelines for character creation besides "here's 100 free points + the disads we suggest you take to have more fun". I think they got a better idea of the wild distributions of powerlevels during the AOL Heroboards era.

 

PS it's not a game breaking thing to allow 6e disads to "work" the way 5e disads. It's not much of a houserule and it's easy to get HD to work with it.

3rd edition DOES have power guildelines (see Champs 3rd ed pg 96 the column titled "Reasonable Characters") where they defined a reasonable character as being 250pts total with Dex Range 18-30 avg 20-23, Con 18-33 avg 18-23, PD/ED 8-28 avg 12-18, SPD 4-6, avg 5, Attacks 40-60pts, Defenses 20-40pts, Movement 10-40pts. It also goes on to remind players that new characters represent "Beginning Heroes" that will grow quickly. So it appears that both stat levels and 150pts of Disads were coded into the game since 3rd edition :D

 

Yup. I almost suggested penciling in a "Base Points" column on the 6e chart. ;)

 

And I'll fully admit, I was too lazy to hit my 2nd and 3rd edition materials, as they are in another room, and not as convenient as the PDFs for searching.

 

JoeG

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

No offense taken Tasha. To me its just another example of things that are not a problem and work fine for my group that others run into snags with. My condolences about your earlier groups. It works for us and characters all play just fine together. There is a huge difference between Munchkining and simply making a character until its done and stopping. frankly no offense Tasha but it makes me feel very group superior. I know that's snobby but that's what my gut feels every time I hear something like that.

 

 

Now for the last time because only Wolf seems to have heard me and everyone else wants to nitpick about how things can be fixed( when most of the time they really don't seem understand my objections anyway)

 

The advantages gained compared to what is lost and has to be homeruled is a more trouble than it is worth to me. period

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Yah,

 

 

 

P.S. Steamtech: please don't see this as an attack, it seriously totally took me off guard, and I had to voice my surprise and feelings on the matter. I apologize right now if it reads as an attack.

 

 

Don't worry about it. Compared to everything else no way could I construe this as an attack. I guess I always felt the disadvantage limits were guidelines and not hard and fast rules whereas the complications seemed to have solidified it and codified to me what was GM option territory and subtly changed it from adding on points to a set inflexible having to take a set amount. Guidelines vs rules I suppose. Maybe I've always interpreted HERO as lots more flexible than it really is or at least more than others do. All the new stuff is able yo be fixed but as I've tried to make people understand why bother if I see no real gain.

 

Way easier to just use the PD/ED object chart from 6th and play 5th and call it a day.

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

The advantages gained compared to what is lost and has to be homeruled is a more trouble than it is worth to me. period

 

There is certainly nothing wrong with that, or really any position.

 

I did go back and look at the new complication rules again - I never noticed, or maybe forgot that I noticed, how it was changed in 6E. Mathematically it's still the same but I think it's actually more confusing now than it was.

 

Instead of saying you receive X base points + up to Y points in complications, you now get up to X points but you have to have Y matching points in complications, and for every 1 CP by which you don't meet the matching complications amount reduces your total points by 1.

 

:confused:

Mathematically it's the same, but I think it was simpler before.

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

There is certainly nothing wrong with that' date=' or really [i']any[/i] position.

 

I did go back and look at the new complication rules again - I never noticed, or maybe forgot that I noticed, how it was changed in 6E. Mathematically it's still the same but I think it's actually more confusing now than it was.

 

Instead of saying you receive X base points + up to Y points in complications, you now get up to X points but you have to have Y matching points in complications, and for every 1 CP by which you don't meet the matching complications amount reduces your total points by 1.

 

:confused:

Mathematically it's the same, but I think it was simpler before.

 

Agreed, I think that the current system is more accurate for how people NORMALY played, but the complication of the new way outfits any "this is more accurate" we gain by it

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

No offense taken Tasha. To me its just another example of things that are not a problem and work fine for my group that others run into snags with. My condolences about your earlier groups. It works for us and characters all play just fine together. There is a huge difference between Munchkining and simply making a character until its done and stopping. frankly no offense Tasha but it makes me feel very group superior. I know that's snobby but that's what my gut feels every time I hear something like that.

 

 

Now for the last time because only Wolf seems to have heard me and everyone else wants to nitpick about how things can be fixed( when most of the time they really don't seem understand my objections anyway)

 

The advantages gained compared to what is lost and has to be homeruled is a more trouble than it is worth to me. period

 

That was the group that I played with over 20 years ago. They/we matured out of it and we played much differently later. In all of the groups that I played with through the years, I could never find one that understood what your group seems to understand. How to write up their characters with no or few compromises to their conception. All paid for with Disads. Members of my current group could probably deal with it, but not any others I have played with.

 

The things that were fixed in 6e really weren't a problem with my group either, but once I used them they seem to fit our character building style pretty well. YMMV

 

Sorry, I got caught up in the Disads which of the things you don't like about 6e seems to be the easiest to fix (since it's an optional fix for each player to decide whether or not their character needs to exceed the campaign point limits)

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

There is certainly nothing wrong with that' date=' or really [i']any[/i] position.

 

I did go back and look at the new complication rules again - I never noticed, or maybe forgot that I noticed, how it was changed in 6E. Mathematically it's still the same but I think it's actually more confusing now than it was.

 

Instead of saying you receive X base points + up to Y points in complications, you now get up to X points but you have to have Y matching points in complications, and for every 1 CP by which you don't meet the matching complications amount reduces your total points by 1.

 

:confused:

Mathematically it's the same, but I think it was simpler before.

 

It's actually easier to explain to Noobs. You tell them to build their character with a total of 400pts and to take 75pts of Disads. Easy. Before you had to explain about base points and how disads added to that total to get to their total of 350pts.

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I could never find one that understood what your group seems to understand. How to write up their characters with no or few compromises to their conception. All paid for with Disads. Members of my current group could probably deal with it, but not any others I have played with.

 

 

I'm very very lucky with my group. We have pretty much all played together for 20 plus years though and it helps

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Folks are always lucky whern they have a long term consistant group. Often though, that means they tend not to see the forest because of the trees. I keep seeing the "They Fixed Stuff We didn't think needed Fixing......"........

 

Like I said before I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've heard that for multitudes of other game systems. Thing is though, often, it did need fixing. Because while it was fine for an isolated group that had mastered kludge-ing and point scrounging and mastered all of the old Goodman's Rules etc.......It really stank up the playing field for forward momentum in a very niche orientated industry.

 

I remember when I picked up 4th I had a spaz because now I had to do more work with Growth, to get extra movement, scaled to size etc etc ......I got over it, kludged it back in. Then Fred rolls along, and they sidebar-ed in the kludge factor to make it less "thought needing", now 6th, Comes full circle with scaled balance to the over all power. It's now intuitive again. Especially to someone new.

 

When you see a Signifigant portion of your sales market run off to an inferior system, because kludge became the "norm", and the folks that had no issue with that, weren't going to A: Incorporate more people into their established group (Let's face it, Long Term Groups are very territorial and exclusionist and often for good reason.), and B: Buy more product, you need to come up with something to drive the game so to speak. That's why you get new editions of anything, from Flowers to grow in your garden to RPG's to new Toaster Streudels to Car Models. If you don't move with the demand, you lose out to those that do.

 

Now a lot of folks will go "So what". Me and my group are Happy with "this". Like I said that's fine if you are lucky enough to have that kind of group, but the reality and the real world is, most of us don't have groups like this. Used to. I remember my "good old days", and I still run into those folks at Con's across the country and when you got folks still keeping in touch with you because of a game and crossing 3000 miles or more to play once or twice a year, or keeping contact in a War Zone, or on a Submarine sitting on the bottom of the Atlantic, you know you had a good game back then....and great players.

 

The lay of the land is different now. Communications different. Gaming is different. Different in fact seems to be the name of the game, as well as a factor of "ease". Folks move around more communicate with people further abroad then they used to, their attention spans are different, even the Comic Industry has started to reflect that so it's not suprising a lot of the games that evolved from THAT interest are finding the need to keep up. I still think, that if there hadn't been overlap on the game shelves between 5th and 6e product, at least 50% of the "sticking to 5th" wouldn't even be there.

 

I think, one of the stronger reasons that a lot of folks really aren't tossing out there for staying, is the Giant amount of Kludge work and home rules many of us cobbled together over the decades of playing this game. Stuff of our own work so to speak, and stuff our respective selves and players and or groups, have grown used to, if not contributed to, and their is a feeling of "failure" associated with moving on to something that works better perhaps, or at least cleaner if the result is the same, and no one likes to feel even a smidge of that, even if it's just perceived at the subconcious level, some folks will remain rooted. Horses and Oxen still plow as many fields as Tractors etc etc etc.....

 

It's pretty much always been that way though it's just that now a days we got many more avenues of communication available to us to toss out feeders for more folks that may feel the same, which is all cool, but we can now do it all in such a volume that we tend to lose track of the root of the hobby is that this is a game that we like to play with other people, and like back in the day, when us old farts were kids, it got to be a touch painful even, when everyone else wandered off to play football when you were still looking for folks to play baseball with. Folks don't like to feel that way or even consider that they are being left behind, or are LEAVING others behind, that the root of the hobby gets lost. Shame that really.

 

Still, to return to the topic, I finally loaned out the Powers Book and the HSMA book to my Semi Regular 6e campaign players. All of them are d20 Grognards for the most part. Half of them are competant with either 4th, or 5th HERO, and are stuck on those because they Liked EC's and Comeliness and Figured's because they learned all the point scrounging tricks of the game. Still, the new folks, the other half of the table, could now understand these new rules and the "feel" made more sense. The books flow better (Except for the Comparisson charts for stats in my opinion. Those could have been grouped much better in layout, and I still find it annoying the provided character sheets haven't brought back the "I'm not an Artiste!" silouhettes for us Art challenged people to doodle in and the Stat Multiples for Costs aren't part of the basic sheet anymore requiring unnessesary book flipping at times for new folks....), but in short, out of, according to my Small Con Paperwork, 5 seperate small conventions since 6e has been in my hands, 5 seperate states, dozens of games, not counting my Over Seas email/post/mail stuff and my two monthly or sometimes biweekly games, that the 6e stuff incorporates more, and is more interesting for new folk, to pick up and try. Flow means a lot in a system, and not having to stall out and explain figureds, and that kind of stuff anymore helps a LOT. Especially since like a lot of people, I don't have The "Uber Group" of players anymore, and have to slake my thirst for a good RPG, on the thin fare of d20-ish stuff out there, at least with the 6e stuff I've found I can cultivate that group again. It inspires. :D

 

Inspiration and imagination is really all you need, with whatever Edition you want to stick to.

 

~Rex

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

It's actually easier to explain to Noobs. You tell them to build their character with a total of 400pts and to take 75pts of Disads. Easy. Before you had to explain about base points and how disads added to that total to get to their total of 350pts.

 

I wonder if it would be better understood to say that characters get X points to spend and are required to have Y points of Complications. Then include a Perk called "Less Complicated" - for every point you spend on this perk you can reduce your required complications points by 1.

 

I don't see why the concept is difficult to grasp regardless of how it's presented, though.

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

It's all about the presentation. The thing is now, the character isn't driven to overload on disads (hunted by Everyone, all the time, etc etc etc), just to feel "competitive" with the rest of the party or the things in the campaign. The Current complication set up, is also far more Comic Book like in feel and flow then the Disads were.....

 

~Rex

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I'm very very lucky with my group. We have pretty much all played together for 20 plus years though and it helps

 

I think the fact that long running groups like this are common around here may be among the biggest reasons this debate is happening.

 

In my experience every group has it's share of rules arguments, and long running groups usually come to some sort of accord. Someone either comes up with a house rule everyone can live with, or an argument for the controversial rule that sways everyone enough that they can then live with it. Groups that cannot do this either just ban sections of the system, switch to a different game, or break up.

 

After a while, you forget these rules were ever controversial in the first place. Your group is on board with them & are happy with the reasoning behind them.

 

This thinking, IMHO, is at the root off a lot of this debate. Figureds make an intuitive sort of sense to many Hero players. That intuitive "it feels right" is at the core of the system for many. Others have found that High Str=More PD just doesn't make sense for some of their characters & really prefer the new system. But if everyone you play with is in one camp or the other, then the debate doesn't even happen except on the internet (where to my knowledge the good argument vs. random blathering ratio is somewhere around 1:50)

 

I have played with two long-running groups. One for 8 years and the other for 13 (and running). The biggest single challenge I had when switching was the realization that the new group enthusiastically embraced rules I thought were terrible, but still had fun. And had fun in ways my old group never did. Their paradigm made sense to them & after running with them for a while it made sense to me too.

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

It's all about the presentation. the thing is now, the character isn't driven to overlaod on disads (hunted by Everyone, all the time, etc etc etc), just to feel "competitive" with the rest of the party or the things in the campaign. The Current complication set up, is also far more Comic Book like in feel and flow then the Disads were.....

 

~Rex

 

Obviously I disagree for the reasons stated above..."sigh". I thin Jhamin has hit the nail on the head and there really is not an objective "better" here.

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Obviously I disagree for the reasons stated above..."sigh". I thin Jhamin has hit the nail on thehead and there really is not an objective "better" here.

 

That's why I brought up the whole Forest and Trees thing. Because there IS an Objective Better.

 

If you aren't Having a problem, and are happy with the feel, then it's not going to seem to be a problem, and the feel isn't going to "feel" wrong. You have that good solid posistion of being in a solid and dedicated group of players. In Short, you're New Zealand. Your own self contained ecosystem of RPGing for the most part. Your're Baseball team hasn't left you to go play football. That's why a lot of us are so jealous, heh. Would be cool to have a solid group like that, or better yet, my old gaming club. Still.

 

It's not like that though for a vast majority of the gaming world. Hasn't been for the better part of a decade, mostly because of the whole Internet and social networking and communications angles, and various other forms of media as well.

 

Unfortunently, it's a big world so to speak, and while you may disagree, there are many many many many folks you are disagreeing with, a lot of whom are new, or returning from other systems, and many of those simply don't understand the viewpoint of those that are sticking to the old stuff, when folks of similar time in grade, are moving on to the new stuff.

 

I'm a similar stick in the mud when it comes to Photography for example. I'll NEVER, switch to digital (Not at least while my store of Black and White Film holds out). I'd sooner claw my own eyes out then abandon Film. So I can understand folks staying with something they like. However, am I going to hold up my good old Nikomat FT and get into a tech arguement based on personal feelings with someone holding up a Nikon D3xs....No way in Hell. Personal feeling has nothing to do with technical/mechanical, and speaking from a technical/mechanical point of view, my camera choice is inferior, even if I don't "feel" that it is. If it wasn't, it would still be the same piece of equipment, sitting up there instead of the new fangled evil technology stuff. :D

 

Still, Big Ocean. Room for lot's of fish.

 

~Rex

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Rex, sorry I just don't feel your analogy holds up. this is gaming not electronics or tech. Heck even. even in tech, marketing can trump actual utility. even if the majority prefers something it doesn't make it objectively better ( think say Novels or movies) It just speaks well to a majority of people. Is Transformers better than Moulin Rouge or the Tempest ?

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I liked the first one. But it's okay because I hated the second one. :P

 

I was expecting the Matrix of Leadership to make Camaro-Bee the new Prime, but instead they brought Optimus back yet again. Which wouldn't have been too bad if they hadn't turned him into a spineless bastard who kills Decepticons that try to surrender. Which is made even more infuriatingly disappointing by the fact that they got Peter Cullen to play him. :mad:

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

It's all about the presentation. The thing is now, the character isn't driven to overload on disads (hunted by Everyone, all the time, etc etc etc), just to feel "competitive" with the rest of the party or the things in the campaign. The Current complication set up, is also far more Comic Book like in feel and flow then the Disads were.....

 

~Rex

 

In my own campaign (FH), I had already moved to a system where starting characters got more "Base points", and could take less Disadvantages. The new Complications system just formalized it for me. Additionally, the Complications system is easier to explain to new players, as they are already familiar with other game systems that give points, and then require Complications (or Hindrances, or whatever the other games call them). And while I might have a player or two who have played Hero with me in the past, I really don't have the luxury of having a gaming group that stays the same over a few years, let alone Steamteck's 20 years with the same group.

 

JoeG

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

That's why I brought up the whole Forest and Trees thing. Because there IS an Objective Better.

 

Objective better based on what criteria? How do you even define objective better in this case? There is no objective better here. There are changes to the system; whether or not the changes were necessary is completely subjective. Whether or not the changes were improvements is completely subjective. If they aren't, then the implication to all of those who don't agree is that they are either uninformed or irrational. I find that a bit condescending, and I prefer 6E.

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Objective better based on what criteria?
Yeah. Something can be objectively better along some dimension or based on some quantitative criteria or other. Something as complex and, well, recreational, as an RPG can't really be judged quantitatively as a whole, only in very small snippets.

 

Take 4e D&D: it's classes are much better-balanced with regard to eachother than in prior editions. Doesn't make the whole game better, though. I prefer 4e D&D, though. Guess I like class balance. ;)

 

I really haven't been playing so much Hero over the last 10 years. The group I was with at the time just didn't much care for it: I could get them to play, but they didn't really apreciate the system. I never even really ran 5th - I allowed anything from 5th, but also still used a lot of 4th and a few personal variants. 6th is different enough that I couldn't easily continue that strategy, so I haven't bothered with it yet.

 

 

Now, some rambling about rolling revs in RPGs.

 

First, let me ramble about D&D. I started with AD&D in 1980 and have seen, liked, adopted, and played all the subsequent versions. I notice a definite pattern with D&D. When a new ed comes out, it is hands-down better, to me, than the previous one, every time. It's not because the new core system is better, it's because each new ed sweeps away the tons of crap that have accumulated over the year as first TSR, then WotC, and now Hasbro publish new books every month to keep the property's income stream going. It's a consequence of D&D being a 'list based' system. You add something to D&D - a spell, a weapon, a race, an item, etc - you add to the system itself, you add rules. Each addition can interact with the core system and any previous or later eadditions in a problematic way. Every 5 or 10 years, the system collapses under the wieght of it's suplements. My techie friends tell me there's a similar phenomenon with the Windows 'registry.' ;)

 

Hero is completely different. It's an effects-based system, so if you want to add a new weapon, spell, world, race, or whatever, you can do so within the existing system. There's no need to re-boot it periodically to purge the system of excess rules. The only place where Hero suffers from that phenomenon a bit is skills. I don't see a pattern with Hero. The first three editions were games that were clearly using a lot of the same mechanics, but still different from eachother. The 2nd Ed of Champions didn't incorporate much from other games, the 3rd did. 4th was a revelation, all the games were brought formally under a single universal system. There were minor incremental improvements and degredations going from 1st through 3rd, but 4th was a quantum leap, and 5th & 5th revised were again very much incremental, while 6th makes significant changes, but remains at it's core a point-build, effects-based, universal RPG.

 

When the BBB hit, Hero became the best RPG ever. It still is: whether you're talking BBB, FRED, revised, or 6th. They may be different from eachother, and we may have preferences, but they're all still better than anything else. :)

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Actually,after reading the description of the Blur! character,I think that the character could be built with an Persistent Change Environment with Personal Immunity that reduces OCV by 4 and is Always On.

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Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Actually' date='after reading the description of the Blur! character,I think that the character could be built with an Persistent Change Environment with Personal Immunity that reduces OCV by 4 and is Always On.[/quote']

 

That's an interesting take on it, but what about ranged attacks?

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