Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

as far as I am aware the DCV characteristic still goes to zero when you do anything that has 0 DCV limitation. so Blur!! as written would be no harder to hit than the average Joe (or Jane) when Stunned. I wonder if there is any advantage you could apply to DCV that could make it less reduceable?

 

I don't think so. I think you could buy a Limited form of CON that would allow this, though.

[Netzilla]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

as far as I am aware the DCV characteristic still goes to zero when you do anything that has 0 DCV limitation. so Blur!! as written would be no harder to hit than the average Joe (or Jane) when Stunned. I wonder if there is any advantage you could apply to DCV that could make it less reduceable?

 

Stunned is 1/2 DCV. KOed is 0.

[Rapier]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I don't think so. I think you could buy a Limited form of CON that would allow this' date=' though.[/quote']

 

Because of the inherent problems in the build, I might just go with some Damage Negation.

 

I might also allow someone the option of purchasing Persistent for their DCV. Actually, that probably sounds like the best option. Always On might also be appropriate since the levels can't be turned off. This could be a real problem if your teammate needs to touch you to heal you or give you Flight or catch you when you are falling.

[dmjalund]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I have mentioned elsewhere the need for persistent DCV bonus to simulate very small creatures (which remain very small even when stunned or unconscious - it is easier to hit an unconscious person than an unconscious fly)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Blur!! went through three or four different builds in the course of that campaign' date=' because we could never seem to get her quite right. At first, she just had a really high DEX, but she was scarily effective in combat because of that. Much more effective than the concept called for, so the GM asked (and I agreed) to redesign her.[/quote']

 

This is a great example. To comment: First, we find that Blur!! is a much more effective and cost-effective character if we just follow the standard that all high DEX characters are combat wizards. The system encourages this link, and this type of character. By extension, it discourages characters who lack this link by making them less effective and less cost-efficient.

 

The second build was closer to what I envisioned for the character (the build I described up above)' date=' but it was so inefficient. I left a ton of points on the table because of all the stuff I had to buy to get her right, so she ended up being considerably less powerful than the other PCs (I had to drop a ton of skills and other powers to get the points to balance).[/quote']

 

IOW, making the character LESS effective costs MORE points. Something is wrong with that picture. The system is actively discouraging characters with high DEX, but poor OCV.

 

Finally' date=' we went back to something like the original build, but (IIRC) gave her a PhysLim: No Good In A Fight (-4 OCV). Which is a kludge, but it more or less worked for the campaign.[/quote']

 

Phys Lim - so you reduce your disadvantages in other areas, or add this for no points. Kludge - agreed.

 

The one possibility not mentioned is buying 17 DEX, +13 DEX "does not enhance OCV". So what limitation do we put on that? Maybe -1/2? That implies DEX only for OCV would be a -2 limitation (so the sum equals the cost of DEX), which puts the cost of OCV at 3 points - when it costs 2 to have +1OCV for just one attack. But you're still getting DEX rolls, Speed and DCV - -1/2 seems like the highest possible reasonable limitation.

 

Obviously' date=' I feel that buying OCV and DCV separate from DEX is a much more elegant and intuitive solution (and not just for [i']Blur!![/i]; there's lots of character concepts that it works for, IMX).

 

With one caveat, discussed below, I agree.

 

I have to admit I would just have built Blur!! with a high DEX to start with and then limited her because she's crap in a fight.

I actually have a character like this in my current FH game - she's an archer and a scarily effective one (interestingly - in FH archers can be among the most effective fighters - in D&D, unless augmented with magic, they're rubbish ....). But she's no good at HTH combat, reflected by the fact the fact that she "freezes up" if enemies get too close (I handled that by a psychological limitation, but it could have easily have been a limitation on DEX).

 

That said, I'm not too fussed by the lack of Figureds. I would have preferred to see the costs balanced off and retain them, but uncoupling was (to me) a clear winner over leaving things as they were.

 

I agree and that's my caveat referred to above. A bit of extra work could easily have been done to give those desiring Figured's the ability to retain them.

 

Let's assume the 6e costs are appropriate, first. [i would argue DEX is not, and others think STR is not, but that's another thread - or about a dozen other threads by now - anyway.] What would it cost in 6e to buy everything the stat got in 5e?

 

In 5e, +10 CON provided 10 CON (10 points), 2 ED (2 points), 2 REC (2 points), 5 STUN (2.5 points) and 20 END (4 points) for a total of 20.5 points. OK, buy CON at 2 points per, and get the same figured's as 5e. There's a small package deal (2.5%) for buying CON instead of buying everything separately. No Figured on CON becomes a -1 limitation.

 

In 5e, +10 BOD provided +10 BOD (10 points) and +10 STUN (5 points), so make BOD cost 1.5 points. No Figured on BOD becomes a -1/2 limitation.

 

In 5e, +10 STR provided 10 STR (10 points), 2 PD (2 points), 2 REC (2 points) and 5 STUN (2.5 points) for a total of 16.5 points. OK, this one is tough to price. 1 2/3 points per STR makes the math hard. So maybe we fine tune the formuli - why does STR bump REC and/or STUN? Let's shift the formulas around so the numbers work better.

 

In 5e, +15 DEX provided +15 DEX (30 points), +5 OCV (25 points), +5 DCV (25 points) and +1.5 SPD (15 points) for a total of 95 points. So price DEX at 6 points (WOW! - but that's what you get if you accept the components are accurate) for a 5.26% savings if you take the whole package. No Figured on DEX is a -5 (!) limitation.

 

In 5e, +15 EGO provided +15 EGO (15 points), +5 MOCV (15 points) and +5 MDCV (15 points), so EGO becomes a 3 point characteristic. No Figured on EGO is a -2 limitation.

 

Back to STR. Let's remove Figured from STR entirely. Then we'll change the following:

 

Let's make +20 BOD provide +20 BOD (20 points) and x2 for STUN = +40 STUN (20 points), so make BOD cost 2 points. No Figured on BOD becomes a -1 limitation.

 

Now we can remove STUN from the CON package and add some REC and PD, so let's have +10 CON provide 10 CON (10 points), 2 PD (2 points), 2 ED (2 points), 4 REC (4 points - divide CON by 2.5), 0 STUN (0 points) and 20 END (4 points) for a total of 22 points. OK, if we leave CON at 2 points per, there's a 10% package deal for buying CON instead of buying everything separately. No Figured on CON stays -1 limitation. 10% is higher than I hoped for, but if we put "Unified Power" on all the components, we get a 20% savings, so it's not the end of the world.

 

Now, you can keep figured's if you want (and get rid of the "you can only sell back one" restriction). The link that so many people value can be retained. Meanwhile, we can build Blur!! by purchasing limited DEX and then buying up DCV and SPD, or by buying normal DEX and selling back OCV. The best of both worlds.

 

APG 2?

 

I was going to counter but we're just going over old ground. I'll just bow out with saying I'm just not seeing anything including examples I couldn't do already and too much work to get other things back to where I want them.

 

True, but those examples could only be done in a way that, in my view, disadvantaged those concepts thereby discouraging them, making the old way unbalanced. That said, I don't think eliminating figured's was necessarily the only way to go. But, having balanced the costs, did Figured's still serve a purpose? Mechanically, probably not. But conceptually, perhaps they did.

[JmOz]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I have to admit I would just have built Blur!! with a high DEX to start with and then limited her because she's crap in a fight.

I actually have a character like this in my current FH game - she's an archer and a scarily effective one (interestingly - in FH archers can be among the most effective fighters - in D&D, unless augmented with magic, they're rubbish ....). But she's no good at HTH combat, reflected by the fact the fact that she "freezes up" if enemies get too close (I handled that by a psychological limitation, but it could have easily have been a limitation on DEX).

 

That said, I'm not too fussed by the lack of Figureds. I would have preferred to see the costs balanced off and retain them, but uncoupling was (to me) a clear winner over leaving things as they were.

 

cheers, Mark

It's a tangent, but my current Pathfinder character is an archer and he is pretty nasty. While he has a magic bow, even without it he is sick...

[The Main Man]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I think that the gestalt debate around how Figured CHAR could be recosted and recalculated is exactly what led to their decoupling.

 

But nowadays I'm quite satisfied with not having Figured CHAR because it is far more cheese-resistant.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

No figureds makes things slightly easier for noobs to grok character building.

[The Main Man]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Yep, that's what I got out of it. And I remember arguing the opposite all that time ago.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Also, speaking from experience, Limited DEX gets cheesy fast in 5er.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

The cheesiest stuff in Hero tends to be overall limitations that don't really limit the character as much as the points you saved would indicate, and compound limitations on powers that add up to -2 overall, but might actually be more like -0 half the time, because someone just took 8 "-1/4" lims, or 4 "-1/2" lims that happen to rarely coincide with each other. Bonus cheese if the so-limited power happens to be an attack with +2 in advantages...

[Escafarc]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

It's a tangent' date=' but my current Pathfinder character is an archer and he is pretty nasty. While he has a magic bow, even without it he is sick...[/quote']

 

Back in 1E/2E AD&D with the brown class/green(?) race "splat" books the Amazon/Wild Elf-Druid/Ranger/Wild Mage combo was a archer god...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I think that the gestalt debate around how Figured CHAR could be recosted and recalculated is exactly what led to their decoupling.

 

I'm inclined to agree. Once each component has been costed out individually, having a "package group" purchase isn't really all that useful from a mechanical perspective.

 

However, it is clear some gamers do find it helpful to retain the link between certain characteristics so a player, especially a new player, doesn't end up with the "very hardy and healthy" character he envisioned running out of breath routinely because he didn't buy REC or END up, believing CON was the indicator in this regard. While I don't see them as necessary, providing a structure under which figured are retained is also far from difficult, and retaining this option in the toolbox seems like it would do no harm to those of us who would not value it, while benefiting those that do. With that in mind, it seems a reasonable thing to add.

 

But nowadays I'm quite satisfied with not having Figured CHAR because it is far more cheese-resistant.

 

I don't think the cheese arose from having Figured's. Rather, I think it arose because the price of the primaries was not commensurate with the price of the figured's they delivered.

 

No figureds makes things slightly easier for noobs to grok character building.

 

Perhaps. Or perhaps that noob who thought his high DEX would make his character more difficult to hit and a better shot with his bow finds greater difficulty with character building. Either one is possible. In fact, another advantage of retaining Figured as an option would be the discussion of how these characteristics tie together, guiding the noob towards all the components of the dextrous and agile, or hardy and healthy, or what have you, character he envisions.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Hand-eye coordination, reflexes and flexibility are great, but they don't automatically correlate to being harder to hit IRL.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I really like the link between Basic and Figured Characteristics. To myself, it only seems natural that if you make your character healthy (high CON) that they will recover from wounds faster (adds to REC). That if you make someone more agile and dextrious, they tend to have better aim in combat. Someone who is more Intelligent tends to pick up on the fine details easier and faster than someone of lesser intellect (adds to Perception). If and when I ever upgrade to 6th edition, figureds will stay. I think it maybe because while I understand and have seen the potential abuse in buying back figured characteristics, I have no problem with this issue whatsoever with my current group, so to me the abuse aspect is a non-issue.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Hand-eye coordination' date=' reflexes and flexibility are great, but they don't automatically correlate to being harder to hit IRL.[/quote']

 

Hand-eye coordination helps your aim when using ranged weaponry. Reflexes helps your ability to react to attacks fast enough to mount a defense. They absolutely help determine whether or not you are good at hitting, or harder t hit in combat. The guy who reacts faster and leaps behind cover quickly, doesn't get riddled with bullets. DCV represents the fact that characters are never standing still in the midst of combat. it doesn't mean that you are reacting to each and every attack that comes your way....it represents that the character is ducking, bobbing and weaving and generally making it difficult for someone to get a good bead on them. Thus that guy who is a bit more agile, that guy who is able to bob and weave just a bit better than the other guy will be harder to hit in combat. Certainly, skill and experience should play a huge role in this aspect...but IMO Dex should be the baseline where a character starts..then Combat Skill Levels can be added to represent the skill and experience a character gains over time.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Hand-eye coordination helps your aim when using ranged weaponry. Reflexes helps your ability to react to attacks fast enough to mount a defense. They absolutely help determine whether or not you are good at hitting' date=' or harder t hit in combat. The guy who reacts faster and leaps behind cover quickly, doesn't get riddled with bullets. DCV represents the fact that characters are never standing still in the midst of combat. it doesn't mean that you are reacting to each and every attack that comes your way....it represents that the character is ducking, bobbing and weaving and generally making it difficult for someone to get a good bead on them. Thus that guy who is a bit more agile, that guy who is able to bob and weave just a bit better than the other guy will be harder to hit in combat. Certainly, skill and experience should play a huge role in this aspect...but IMO Dex should be the [i']baseline[/i] where a character starts..then Combat Skill Levels can be added to represent the skill and experience a character gains over time.

 

Most of the time you will see a correlation, but it's not 1:1. For instance, being able to move your head quickly means nothing if you don't know which way to move it to avoid an incoming punch. And having great reflexes doesn't precisely correspond to having the presence of mind to not panic or freeze, and just react.

[Markdoc]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

It's a tangent' date=' but my current Pathfinder character is an archer and he is pretty nasty. While he has a magic bow, even without it he is sick...[/quote']

 

As a matter of interest, how do you manage that? Even before you get to magic augments, a HTH fighter should be capable of dishing out dishing out a basic 4d6 damage equivalents, critting on a 19+. How do you even come close to that with a bow?

 

cheers, Mark

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Most of the time you will see a correlation' date=' but it's not 1:1. For instance, being able to move your head quickly means nothing if you don't know which way to move it to avoid an incoming punch. And having great reflexes doesn't precisely correspond to having the presence of mind to not panic or freeze, and just react.[/quote']

 

I agree. Which is why I've always supported Combat Skill Levels over extra DEX to represent a highly skilled combatant. However if you take someone who has the potential and you train them just a little bit, they tend to get good very, very quickly. An olympic gymnast with a DEX of 18 who doesn't know how to fight (no WF at all, so is -3 OCV to everything) won't seem very impressive until you teach him how to fight, at which point his potential will kick in and he'll become very proficient, very quickly. Thus his natural CV of 6 will apply to whatever form of combat he is learning...then as time goes on, he'll get scary good.

 

I will use a real life example from my own personal experience. I've always been good at sports...a natural so to speak. I was the fastest kid in my class. One of the best baseball players. One of the best football players. One of the best soccer players. Its obvious that I have a somewhat higher than average DEX. In my youth it would've probably rated a 13 or 14. Did I develop skill levels with sports? No. I hate sports. I rarely played them. It was pure Characteristics performance.

What does this have to do with combat? Years later, when I finally got a chance to learn some Martial Arts, I joined at a local school learning Kung Fu. The sifu was very impressed with my ability to simply pick up forms almost instantly and do them perfectly. After only a few days of training, some of the instructors began pointing me out as the example of proper form, accuracy and power. The instructors were pointing me out to students who had been studying for months. It made me quite uncomfortable to tell the truth and I made no friends at that school. my point being that my natural potential had me performaing as well as students who had been studying for months longer than myself. Thats DEX and CV interaction in a nutshell.

[JmOz]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

As a matter of interest, how do you manage that? Even before you get to magic augments, a HTH fighter should be capable of dishing out dishing out a basic 4d6 damage equivalents, critting on a 19+. How do you even come close to that with a bow?

 

cheers, Mark

 

mark, I sent you a PM as not to derail the thread, but in the end it is by staying very focused on him being a great archer

[teh bunneh]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I really like the link between Basic and Figured Characteristics. To myself' date=' it only seems natural that if you make your character healthy (high CON) that they will recover from wounds faster (adds to REC). That if you make someone more agile and dextrious, they tend to have better aim in combat. Someone who is more Intelligent tends to pick up on the fine details easier and faster than someone of lesser intellect (adds to Perception). [/quote']

 

Of course, there's nothing in 6e that prevents (or even discourages) building a character with both high CON and high REC, or any other combination which the player and GM think is reasonable. You don't get a built-in point break for it any longer, but you can easily build whatever type of character you prefer to play. And you can add your own point break by using the Unified Power limitation on those characteristics which you feel should be tied together. Best of all worlds!

[megaplayboy]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I agree. Which is why I've always supported Combat Skill Levels over extra DEX to represent a highly skilled combatant. However if you take someone who has the potential and you train them just a little bit, they tend to get good very, very quickly. An olympic gymnast with a DEX of 18 who doesn't know how to fight (no WF at all, so is -3 OCV to everything) won't seem very impressive until you teach him how to fight, at which point his potential will kick in and he'll become very proficient, very quickly. Thus his natural CV of 6 will apply to whatever form of combat he is learning...then as time goes on, he'll get scary good.

 

I will use a real life example from my own personal experience. I've always been good at sports...a natural so to speak. I was the fastest kid in my class. One of the best baseball players. One of the best football players. One of the best soccer players. Its obvious that I have a somewhat higher than average DEX. In my youth it would've probably rated a 13 or 14. Did I develop skill levels with sports? No. I hate sports. I rarely played them. It was pure Characteristics performance.

What does this have to do with combat? Years later, when I finally got a chance to learn some Martial Arts, I joined at a local school learning Kung Fu. The sifu was very impressed with my ability to simply pick up forms almost instantly and do them perfectly. After only a few days of training, some of the instructors began pointing me out as the example of proper form, accuracy and power. The instructors were pointing me out to students who had been studying for months. It made me quite uncomfortable to tell the truth and I made no friends at that school. my point being that my natural potential had me performaing as well as students who had been studying for months longer than myself. Thats DEX and CV interaction in a nutshell.

 

And, in 6th, at your prerogative, you can sync CV, DEX and SPD up if you like it that way. You just don't get a cost break for it.

[Escafarc]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

And' date=' in 6th, at your prerogative, you can sync CV, DEX and SPD up if you like it that way. You just don't get a cost break for it.[/quote']

 

You could if you buy them as Powers and use the Unified Power Limitation

[JmOz]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

You could if you buy them as Powers and use the Unified Power Limitation

 

Which is an interesting idea, especialy if you rename the limitation to Figured Characteristics, you would still be spending more on characteristics, but it would give you a good balance...

[megaplayboy]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Which is an interesting idea' date=' especialy if you rename the limitation to Figured Characteristics, you would still be spending more on characteristics, but it would give you a good balance...[/quote']

 

...though it would also mean that DEX drains drop your speed and cv, just like they used to in the old edition.