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HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?


Steve Long

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OK, folx, now that Champions is temporarily put to bed, it's time to get started on the next book: HERO System Martial Arts! So that means it's time for another WDYWTS thread as well. :hex:

 

This will be a softcover, black-and-white, book.

 

As usual, I'm going to start this thread with a brief outline of the contents of the book, in the faint and futile hope that will prevent people from posting suggestions for things I've already said will be in the book. ;) I'll follow up this post with an additional post or two asking for more specific feedback on some matters.

 

Roughly speaking, what this book is going to do is take the bulk of The Ultimate Martial Artist, and the bulk of Ninja Hero, and slam 'em together. Some parts are not going to be carried over (e.g., the "sourcebook" stuff in Chapter Five of NH), but that's where most of it's coming from. Then I'm going to revise, update, expand, and transmogrify as needed. For example, instead of making a lot of suggestions for ways to use Skills, Powers, and other game elements to build martial arts abilities (as in Chapter Two of UMA), I'm simply going to include a large section of pre-built example abilities with options (very similar to the sections found in our later Ultimate books).

 

So, here's the outline:

 

Chapter One -- Martial Arts Styles: basic info about buying Martial Arts; an extensive review of martial arts styles from around the world and throughout history; some fictional martial arts styles and guidelines for creating your own.

 

Chapter Two -- Martial Maneuvers: creating standard and Ranged Martial Maneuvers; other ways to create martial arts using the HERO System; coupon for half off a Key Lime pie; rules for applying Power Advantages to Martial Maneuvers.

 

Chapter Three -- Martial Arts Abilities: a big-ass list of example martial arts abilities, with options, organized into five subgenre-related categories: Realistic; Cinematic; Wuxia; Anime; Video Game. Look at the example powers chapters in books like TUM, UMM, and USP for what this is more or less going to be like.

 

Chapter Four -- Martial Artist Character Creation: any additional information needed on creating martial artist characters.

 

Chapter Five -- Martial Artists Genre By Genre: example genre-specific Martial Arts styles and characters for all of the major genres.

 

Chapter Six -- Martial Arts Combat: additional and expanded rules for martial arts fighting, martial arts weapons, and so on.

 

Chapter Seven -- Martial Arts Campaigning: all the campaigning stuff from Chapters 1 and 4 of NH, revised, expanded, and reworked as needed, including some example characters (or possibly one character, done five different ways for the various subgenres).

 

So, that's pretty much it. What do you want to see in HSMA? If you already own UMA and NH for 5E, what can we add to HSMA or do with it as a project to make you likely to buy it? (Note: if the answer is "I won't buy it under any circumstances," please don't waste your time or mine posting that -- it's not a useful datum.)

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

OK, first specific question:

 

Do you think there are any real-world martial arts styles that are missing from UMA that I should include in HSMA? Or are there any styles that need revision or expansion?

 

I already have a couple on my list: first, I need to add Baritsu (I can't believe this has been overlooked for 20 years, yeesh); and I want to expand Savate a bit based on some documentaries I've seen.

 

But I figure Herodom Assembled will have plenty of suggestions beyond those two. ;)

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Eskrima, I think it is mentioned as a "You can use this style to represent this other style" type of note, but a full right up would be nice. I would also recomend for all of those styles that are included in other styles that both names show up in the index (with some being refered to like Kobujutsu (under Karate) pg 25)

 

Under Genre, Champions, a bit of an armory for those gadgets that MA seem to have. For instance clubs with swinglines in it

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I think that Mixed Martial Arts could use some elaboration.While in theory it simply involves buying the maneuvers that you want and calling it a day, there are certain levels of expectation in modern MMA - stand up and ground game, which consist of a lot Boxing and Wrestling in addition to one's original style.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

What no pumpkin pie? :nonp:

 

Ok seriously, here are a few suggestions.

  • For real world styles, (and this has been asked for on the boards) how about a Mixed Martial Arts style. I don't personally like it, but it is popular enough, I beleive that it sgould be added.
  • For disable element (Iknow you said you are going to look at it), how about include a impair option and maybe a defense for the manuever.
  • I think the root manuever should be able to be expanded (of course one or the other) to be able to apply to the throw element. (I did make this a thread, which explains alittle bit more of why)
  • Make choke hold also have a -2 DCV as it should have. Ok I'll do a flying dodge now.
  • Maybe a sample of a Super Martial Arts campaign.
  • I think HA should be expanded to be able to represent other things such as grabbing strength. I even think an adavantage would be fair. (I know I brought this up before, but I really think this would make certain things easier to represent.)

Thanks for listening. :)

 

(Since my mind cotrol for the sticky worked, then maybe all of my suggestions will also be in the book. Bwahahah. oops.)

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Chapter One -- Martial Arts Styles: basic info about buying Martial Arts; an extensive review of martial arts styles from around the world and throughout history; some fictional martial arts styles and guidelines for creating your own.

 

Chapter Two -- Martial Maneuvers: creating standard and Ranged Martial Maneuvers; other ways to create martial arts using the HERO System; coupon for half off a Key Lime pie; rules for applying Power Advantages to Martial Maneuvers.

 

I would like to see each coupon feature a bar code or individual identification number so it can be photocopied for redemption. I hate having to cut up my books. Other than that, everything to this point sounds good.

 

Chapter Three -- Martial Arts Abilities: a big-ass list of example martial arts abilities' date=' with options, organized into five subgenre-related categories: Realistic; Cinematic; Wuxia; Anime; Video Game. Look at the example powers chapters in books like TUM, UMM, and USP for what this is more or less going to be like.[/quote']

 

It would be nice to see some of this sorted on the same genre lines as Chapter 5, if only for consistency. Alternatively, perhaps some discussion of how the various MA subgenres fit with the various traditional genres (eg. in Fantasy, a gritty game likely sticks to Realistic MA, where a High Fantasy game might move into other territory) might be in order, probably in Chapter 5. I think the latter may be preferable, using the MA subgenres for most of the book and then discussing how each subgenre might fit in (or not fit in) to the more conventional genres in Chapter 5.

 

Chapter Five -- Martial Artists Genre By Genre: example genre-specific Martial Arts styles and characters for all of the major genres.

 

Here, I'm unclear whether you mean the five MA subgenres noted above, or the more traditional genres like Fantasy, Supers, etc. My preference would be the latter, as indicated above.

 

Chapter Seven -- Martial Arts Campaigning: all the campaigning stuff from Chapters 1 and 4 of NH' date=' revised, expanded, and reworked as needed, including some example characters (or possibly one character, done five different ways for the various subgenres).[/quote']

 

Looks like two sets of sample characters, one in Ch 5 and one in Ch 7. I'm not sure that's avoidable, or even desirable to avoid. Ch 5 is about other genres, where Ch 7 is about subgenres of the Martial Arts genre.

 

It seems like the book combines an Ultimates book (rules options for martial arts) with a Genre book (the Martial Arts genre) - DUH - it is combining two books, one the former and one the latter, which is a bit of a departure from the Hero approach over the past few years. It will be interesting to see how that goes. I can't think of any other area where a specific set of rules mechanics/Ultimate archetypes fits so neatly wth a specific genre, so it may be that this approach can't be duplicated in other areas. That may make the book unique in this regard.

 

Regardless of the one book or two book approach, I suspect you will get an equal amount of complaints in the vein of:

 

[5e Style]Why do I have to buy two books to get all the parts? Ninja Hero keeps referring to UMA. [alternatively, Why do I have to pay for the same thing twice, Ninja Hero repeats a lot of UMA]

 

[6e Style]Why do I have to buy the parts I don't want. I only want the rules mechanics, not genre information [or vice versa].

 

Such is the sad lot of the game designer, I suppose.

 

I do already own both 5e books, but I am looking forward to the 6e versions, so I'm not sure what to suggest for making it attractive. Unfortunately, you're something of a victim of success in this regard, in that there seems to be little to change from, or add to, the 5e books. Absent some innovative new material, I can see where this book may be a tough sell to those with the 5e version.

 

Maybe more pie coupons?

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

A condensed version of Lucha Libre could be included under Professional Wrestling.

 

Similarly, what if there was a chart for rolling up a name for a maneuver?

 

What if there were subgenre-based alternatives for applicable martial arts writeups?

A martial art style to possibly look up is Chun Kuk Do - the body of martial arts techniques taught by Chuck Norris.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

OK, first specific question:

 

Do you think there are any real-world martial arts styles that are missing from UMA that I should include in HSMA? Or are there any styles that need revision or expansion?

 

 

Abir Keshet Warrior Arts! :eg:

 

I kid. I kid.

 

More seriously: Police Defensive Tactics. Among the moves should be a disabling blow - two hands straight down on the muscles between the shoulder blades, which causes the target to open his hands instead of closing them, and done properly, renders the arms useless for a while. The move was developed for the Secret Service by a physician in the event someone pointed a gun at one of their charges, but its commonly taught to police officers. I remember not the nerve cluster it disables. Another option might be a nerve strike following on a grab ala pain response techniques, or a hand-cuffing move following on a grab.

 

Related, you might consider expanding fast draw to include unjamming drills, etc. Unless you already did (I'm now plodding through 6E). For my games I renamed it "gun handling" and use it for fast draw, speed-loading, and unjamming/unbinding. It could be tacked on to the "Way of the Gun!"

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Do you think there are any real-world martial arts styles that are missing from UMA...?

I should perhaps not be answering this as I have not so much as 'seen' Ultimate Martial Artist, so I do not know what it contains. It is likely it contains a write up for Hsing-I, but if not, it definitely needs one. It is the classic 'internal' style of Chinese striking forms. A lot of other Chinese styles have a difficult time injecting power into their movement. The classic advice of many Chinese artists is for anyone devoting themselves to one of these many other Chinese styles, is to also spend a few years studying Hsing-I, as it's emphases upon Fa-Jin power (internal explosive force) can be applied to any and all other styles. Hsing-I is actually a fairly simple style consisting for all intents of short powerful striking. A package might well simply be but the standard Defensive Strike, to account for the defensive stancing, along with two Damage Classes. The suggestion that so many receive to study Hsing-I in order to learn power for their other style would be neatly explained by those two damage classes. Hsing-I does not have blocks per say, as all movements are simultaneously striking as they block, hence the Defensive Strike.

 

Very likely a style that is 'not' in the book is Chen style Tai-Chi. Chen style was the precursor to most of the other Tai-Chi styles that people 'are' familiar with. The whys and hows of the evolution of those other styles is an interesting telling, but that is another post. Chen Style Tai-Chi is a fighting art, first and foremost. Any health benefits are a mere happy coincidence. It is practiced slowly because it is difficult to practice internal movements quickly. That said, the slow movements in the Chen Tai-Chi form are used to build power, to coil the spring as it were. The distinguishing feature of Chen style Tai-Chi, that differentiates it from other forms is that throughout the form, there are numerous instances of explosive power as the coil is released (Fa-Jin).

 

Here are a couple of not great videos showing extracts from a couple of forms:

 

Completely aside from a mechanics point of view, is a bit of a critique of the martial arts system itself. From a pure min/max point of view, a player is usually better off buying the bare minimum of maneuvers necessary to fit the rules, and simply use those techniques in combat. Returns on points spent diminish rapidly as one buys more and more techniques. Given two martial artists built on 150 points, one who bought the full package of martial arts for 35 points, and the other who bought less than fifteen points worth of maneuvers but spent the points saved on extra levels, strength and PD, is going to wipe the floor with the other character who technically knows more martial arts.

 

I would like to see a system that either confers a point break to the purchase of new maneuvers, the more one buys - the cheaper they get, which from a point balance "getting what you pay for" point of view would be the fairest mechanism; or come up with a system that breaks maneuvers into basic, intermediary, and advanced techniques. Require that a minimum of 5 points be spent on basic techniques (and then sneakily don't provide any five point basic techniques) before intermediate techniques can be purchased. And then require that at least 20 points be spent on basic and intermediate techniques combined before any techniques can be learned from the advanced category. Further stipulate that once one has learned five points of advanced techniques from their own style, they are then free to purchase any technique from any other style without restriction. That would create a points worthy incentive to spend more than the minimum ten points on Martial Arts.

 

In the rules for building maneuvers, stipulate that basic maneuvers may not be built for more than four points. Intermediate techniques can be built normally, and advanced techniques get all sorts of extra advantages, so they can be made to be truly special. Advanced techniques are/could be Wuxia level techniques.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Something that I also thought of: what if standard tournament rules are mentioned under respective martial arts?

 

For instance, you would find the general standard rules for Karate tournaments under Karate, and you would find the rules of Sumo under Sumo, etc.

 

I think that if it isn't too exhaustive that it would be useful for realistic campaigns.

 

Just an observation: Multiplt Attack makes martial arts combos more intuitive.

Anbsp;

This might be too exhaustive, but here goes: what if there was a blurb about how each martial art could be presented per subgenre?

 

I figure that the real world martial art styles would all assume a realistic setting, but there could be cinematic, wuxia, video game, and anime elaborations for each one.

 

On the other hand, some of the fictional styles may assume a different subgenre/scale.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Some rules, or suggestions for how to use the current rules for a type of showdown mechanic which could cover anything from Japanese iajistu and two master's drawing against each other, to a high noon quickdraw showdown. I know there is the obvious, segment 12, who has the highest dex, they win, but that seems a bit dull. Legend of 5 Rings and several of the western games have rules for such a showdown and it would be nice to see that style adapted into Hero.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Some rules' date=' or suggestions for how to use the current rules for a type of showdown mechanic which could cover anything from Japanese iajistu and two master's drawing against each other, to a high noon quickdraw showdown. I know there is the obvious, segment 12, who has the highest dex, they win, but that seems a bit dull. Legend of 5 Rings and several of the western games have rules for such a showdown and it would be nice to see that style adapted into Hero.[/quote']

 

Yes!

 

We need psychic duels and stare-downs, "draw" moments, and sudden bursts of fists of fury with backup singers and a dancers sauntering out into the middle of the action! Okay, maybe not that last clause, but the first two for certain.

 

Ahem.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Speaking of backup singers and dancers sauntering out into the middle of the action...

 

Had you considered an example of a comedic genre martial art ala John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever?

 

Disco Do!

 

Dancing moves: "pelvic snap throw," "strutting trip," "backhand look at me," "dance forward [shove], "gold chain blinding (reflecting light from the disco ball)," "stayin' alive dodge," etcetera.

 

You could even include a special ability where, when dancing in time with the flashing colored floor squares you take no penalties for multi-attack.

 

I'm sure you could come up with better humorous descriptors for the moves.

 

I'm only half kidding. I don't know if you have room for "comedy martial arts," but its a common enough shtick.

 

On that note: what about bumbling idiot fu? They Call Me Bruce and various martial arts slapstick comes to mind.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I think that the UMA is just about perfect as is, and the Martial Arts rules are one of my favorite parts of the HERO System, so I hope to see no major fundamental changes to the core concepts and mechanics.

 

More than anything I would like to see some new maneuver elements. I would like to see more maneuvers, including ones demonstrating new elements.

 

I would like to see more variations on the "Must Follow" and "In Response To" concepts to allow the building of very specific combo moves.

 

I would like to see a better 'counter attack' options and a general lifting of the can't attack limitation on Abortables that also include offensive options; a number of styles have a concept of blocking and attacking simultaneously or reactive offfense. Reactive Strike, Reactive Trip, Reactive Toss, etc. Cost is no impediment here; there should be a way to do this directly within the MA rule without having to resort to a complicated trigger or damage shield power, whether it requires an unlock talent or a combat skill or a more expensive than 5 point maneuver.

 

 

Finally, I want this book to look AWESOME! So, you know, make sure of that ;)

 

 

 

 

And also, Key Lime pie is my favorite! I am a native-born Floridian after all. I look forward to my coupon. :D

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

First, in response to your "specific question": The first edition of Ninja Hero (Mr. Allston's book) has American Football built as a Martial Art, and I think this was a very interesting idea that could also be included here. Adding Slapstick ("Stooge-Fu") is also a popular idea.

 

And I've seen Krav Maga in action; it does have a Counterstrike maneuver, or at least the practitioners I've seen have used one. (Grab the wrist on an incoming blow, and use its energy as you spin around and elbow your opponent in the face.)

 

Of course the new edition will have 6th Edition rebuilds of Dim Mak and the old "Trackless Stride." But there's one ability I've seen, on the (short-lived and highly underrated) TV show Cleopatra 2525, that I've always had a hard time knowing how to build: a character runs down a hallway, tunnel, or similar structure with such force that she (usually being one of the lead heroines) runs up the wall, across the ceiling, and down the opposite wall. (I'll have to look for a clip of that stunt on YouTube later; none pops up easily.)

 

Other than the above, I'm happy with what you've already said you want to put in, and will leave most other input to everyone else (unless some other detail comes to mind, of course). :)

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Other than the above, I'm happy with what you've already said you want to put in, and will leave most other input to everyone else (unless some other detail comes to mind, of course). :)

 

If I understand what you're saying, I believe that Acrobatics covers that sort of scenario. I'm pretty sure Ultimate Skill had a Running Up Walls section for Acrobatics.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Here, I'm unclear whether you mean the five MA subgenres noted above, or the more traditional genres like Fantasy, Supers, etc.

 

To clarify -- when I say "genres" I mean just that -- genres like Fantasy, Superheroes, Science Fiction, Pulp, and so on. The five categories covered in NH and in this book (Realistic, Cinematic, Wuxia, Anime, and Video Game) are subgenres of the Martial Arts genre. So when I'm talking about Genre By Genre characters, I mean there'll be a couple of example Superhero martial artists, a Fantasy martial artist, a Post-Apocalyptic martial artist, and so on -- similar to the way I handled things in UMM, UEP, or various Ultimate books. ;)

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Completely aside from a mechanics point of view, is a bit of a critique of the martial arts system itself. From a pure min/max point of view, a player is usually better off buying the bare minimum of maneuvers necessary to fit the rules, and simply use those techniques in combat. Returns on points spent diminish rapidly as one buys more and more techniques. Given two martial artists built on 150 points, one who bought the full package of martial arts for 35 points, and the other who bought less than fifteen points worth of maneuvers but spent the points saved on extra levels, strength and PD, is going to wipe the floor with the other character who technically knows more martial arts.

 

I would like to see a system that either confers a point break to the purchase of new maneuvers, the more one buys - the cheaper they get, which from a point balance "getting what you pay for" point of view would be the fairest mechanism; or come up with a system that breaks maneuvers into basic, intermediary, and advanced techniques. Require that a minimum of 5 points be spent on basic techniques (and then sneakily don't provide any five point basic techniques) before intermediate techniques can be purchased. And then require that at least 20 points be spent on basic and intermediate techniques combined before any techniques can be learned from the advanced category. Further stipulate that once one has learned five points of advanced techniques from their own style, they are then free to purchase any technique from any other style without restriction. That would create a points worthy incentive to spend more than the minimum ten points on Martial Arts.

 

While I don't necessarily agree with everything you've written, I've had some similar thoughts and definitely plan to cover this sort of thing in the book. However, I can guarantee you one thing -- there's not going to be any sort of "buy some, get more for a cheaper rate" system. HERO used to have several rules like that, and they've all been ruthlessly weeded out over the years because they're a big fat PITA. OTOH, I use a ranking system for Maneuvers in my STORMlords campaign and might very well talk about something along those lines, even if just briefly. ;)

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

This might be too exhaustive, but here goes: what if there was a blurb about how each martial art could be presented per subgenre?

 

Hmmm... an interesting idea, but I'm not sure it would be productive to do it art-by-art; so many entries would be exactly the same. Might work better as a general "essay topic" for the campaigning chapter, with a specific example or two for seasoning. ;)

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I hope to see no major fundamental changes to the core concepts and mechanics.

 

You can consider your hope affirmed. Have no fears on that score. I will certainly discuss alternate ways to do things as an option, but as I stated at one point during the 6E discussion, I think the Martial Arts rules are one of the best things about the HERO System and don't see any pressing need to change them.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'm pretty sure Ultimate Skill had a Running Up Walls section for Acrobatics.

 

It does, on p. 72. You could probably also do what was described with some Limited form of Clinging, though I'd really have to see the stunt in question being performed to make sure I understand it correctly.

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