HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Vondy]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

sorry for the tangent' date=' so which one is hurting you not having the Ultimate Vehicle, or the beastiary[/quote']

 

Ah... jaguar the car or jaguar the animal? I should have thought of that.

 

The book I really need is the beastiary. I'm working on a bunch of fantasy material and need write ups for real world animals. I especially need a jaguar as one of the central protagoniss can shapeshift into one (and a hybrid form). But horses, dogs, cats, birds and the like are also useful. The supernatural stuff is more useful as a touchstone than anything.

[Vondy]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

In some sources yes; in some sources no. But I'll be damned if I'm going to use such a silly-sounding word' date=' so the former sources can go the hell away. [/quote']

 

So, is bartitsu or whatever the barista's combat art?

[Sean Waters]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- I don't want to see one shots

 

Strange... we agree on something.

 

........

 

 

I'd best change my opinion then

 

One other thing I was just thinking was that MA movies and such feature fights involving, usually, several strikes and apparently successful attacks before the opponent goes down. This is generally because of the build of characters - generally MA characters are normal humans - albeit very superior specimens - with superhuman attack capabilities and no special defences.

 

Looking at Yeung Li at 6.2.244 he has 8 pd, 30 stun, 18 CON and can punch for 8d6 and kick for 10d6. Fighting a similar character the first hit will stun the opponent, or maybe even KO them. It also means that he would hardly ever want to bother with his nerve strike because a simple punch is going to get more damage through defences and provides better modifiers - making the purchase of such 'flavour' maneouvres an academic exercise.

 

Now I know that we often try to speed up combat as much as we can, and that if an opponent falls after a small number of blows then combat goes faster BUT in a genre where fighting is what it is all about, we need to linger here a bit. OTOH simply reducing overall damage is not helpful either - battles against a few minions will take forever, and a KO punch would be impossible.

 

2 suggestions - and they are not rule changes but something to perhaps consider when looking at genre suggestions:

 

1. Suggested builds for increasing damage against less competent opponents: perhaps damage that applies based on the excess on a roll to hit - although that tends to (in a similar way to hit locations) penalise characters who have a 'so tough I can take it' concept...unless you build THEM with extra DCV (only to determine effects of hit location/extra damage rules).

 

2. More emphasis on defences. Jackie Chan gets hit a lot but you get the impression that he avoids the damage by rolling with it. Damage reduction or extra defences - again perhaps skill based so they are less effective against competent opponents - would be worth considering when discussing power builds and how they apply to certain genres. If such defences did not stop a nerve strike then there might be more reason to buy and use it...

 

ALSO

 

Considering MA realism it might be nice to have a discussion over what MA can't do. In a wuxia game all bets are off but in MOST Martial Arts type games you probably shouldn't have character punching through concrete walls without serious injury - and yet many martial artist types can do enough damage to accomplish that. It might be nice to discuss 'realism rules' for those who like it gritty - not just ruling that you CAN'T punch through a wall - perhaps you can - but what happens if you try it - even if you succeed.

[Vondy]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- I don't want to see one shots

 

2 suggestions - and they are not rule changes but something to perhaps consider when looking at genre suggestions:

 

1. Suggested builds for increasing damage against less competent opponents: perhaps damage that applies based on the excess on a roll to hit - although that tends to (in a similar way to hit locations) penalise characters who have a 'so tough I can take it' concept...unless you build THEM with extra DCV (only to determine effects of hit location/extra damage rules).

 

2. More emphasis on defences. Jackie Chan gets hit a lot but you get the impression that he avoids the damage by rolling with it. Damage reduction or extra defences - again perhaps skill based so they are less effective against competent opponents - would be worth considering when discussing power builds and how they apply to certain genres. If such defences did not stop a nerve strike then there might be more reason to buy and use it...

 

I see your point. There are a couple of ways to simulate this: 1) leverage the roll with punches option more (and put some penalty levels into it), and 2) give them actual defenses. In the latter case, damage reduction for normal damage, or even just normal stun damage works like a charm. You can slap ego or con rolls on it to simulate their conditioning or state of mind pushing them farther and harder than normal men. You could do the same with armor, I guess. In that case, however, I think something along the lines of Killer Shrike's "Hard Bitten" (see his barbarians page) would be apropos.

 

Considering MA realism it might be nice to have a discussion over what MA can't do. In a wuxia game all bets are off but in MOST Martial Arts type games you probably shouldn't have character punching through concrete walls without serious injury - and yet many martial artist types can do enough damage to accomplish that. It might be nice to discuss 'realism rules' for those who like it gritty - not just ruling that you CAN'T punch through a wall - perhaps you can - but what happens if you try it - even if you succeed.

 

I've always been a big fan of reality distortion levels and character drama ratings (terms stolen from DP9's Silcore) with some mechanism for implementing them.

[McCoy]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

First' date=' in response to your "specific question": The first edition of Ninja Hero (Mr. Allston's book) has American Football built as a Martial Art, and I think this was a very interesting idea that could also be included here. Adding Slapstick ("Stooge-Fu") is also a popular idea.[/quote']

Second!

But there's one ability I've seen' date=' on the (short-lived and highly underrated) TV show [i']Cleopatra 2525[/i], that I've always had a hard time knowing how to build: a character runs down a hallway, tunnel, or similar structure with such force that she (usually being one of the lead heroines) runs up the wall, across the ceiling, and down the opposite wall. (I'll have to look for a clip of that stunt on YouTube later; none pops up easily.)

Clinging, only with full move.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I don't really want 4 Champions suggestions on Characters like those that have appeared in pretty much every Ultimate Book - especially as they're all built on the same points/campaign parameters - and then get a lousy 1 for 3-4 other genres.

 

We only need One Champions example martial artist. Unless you plan on making a Teen Champions, Standard Champions and Galactic Champions example of each one it is wasted space IM(N)HO. More genres instead of more examples of the same genre.

 

I mainly play Champions, and I agree with GA. The sample characters in books such as this shouold showcase different things that can be done with the source material - in this case, a wide array of different martial arts characters. Rather than four Champions characters and one each from varius other genres, maybe two Champions characters and two characters each for two other genres, highlighting how differently martial arts can be used in the same genre. Two Fantasy characters seems a given (both a popular genre, and one where we can have the ascetic Monk with his amazing HTH abilities and the swashbuckling fencer with his MA only usable with his weapons). I'm not sure what the third genre should be [numbers picked to end up with the same total sample characters] but it should be one that can illustrate how martial arts can be used for something different, hopefully unique. And if there aren't two very different ideas for the Champions characters, then only have one of those and pick another genre to have two.

 

And I'll probably use a riff on those great, original ideas for other genres in building a Champions character at some point anyway. Ideas are often very easily transported between genres.

[Sean Waters]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- I don't want to see one shots

 

I see your point. There are a couple of ways to simulate this: 1) leverage the roll with punches option more (and put some penalty levels into it), and 2) give them actual defenses. In the latter case, damage reduction for normal damage, or even just normal stun damage works like a charm. You can slap ego or con rolls on it to simulate their conditioning or state of mind pushing them farther and harder than normal men. You could do the same with armor, I guess. In that case, however, I think something along the lines of Killer Shrike's "Hard Bitten" (see his barbarians page) would be apropos.

 

 

 

............

 

 

I like Roll With Punch but it does mean that everyone wants to hold their action, to see if they are hit first - and if not they can strike back immediately, with an opponent who can not abort to a defensive maneouvre. That basically comes down to who can go fastest (usually) wins, and quickly.

 

It is difficult to get the balance right because you want to be able to hurt but not one-shot a competent opponent who can react tot eh attack, but still be able to wade through less powerful opposition without wasting too much time.

 

Hmm - another thing occurs to me - a lot of players who have been playing for a while will know and appreciate the value of coordinating attacks - it is easy to do and very effective indeed - often making creating a meaningful powerful single opponent for a team of players very difficult.

 

One useful power build might be some sort of negative skill level power to reduce the chances of someone being able to coordinate against you, perhaps built as a talent.

 

I have not put it together yet but it is already sounding expensive. Hmm...and I do not seem to be able to find 'negative skill levels' in 6e...

 

Alternatively you might create an additional level of Defence Maneouvre that not only eliminates Multiple Attacker Bonuses but also prevents- or makes more difficult - coordinated attacks.

 

Needs something though.

[Vondy]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- I don't want to see one shots

 

I like Roll With Punch but it does mean that everyone wants to hold their action, to see if they are hit first - and if not they can strike back immediately, with an opponent who can not abort to a defensive maneouvre. That basically comes down to who can go fastest (usually) wins, and quickly.

 

It might be appropriate in some genres to allow people to abort to rolling with a punch both before and after throwing a punch. An exception, but one which isn't completely unbalancing as its not a maneuver that totally eliminates the damage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

That could work - but I might rule that if you roll with punch before you could normally have aborted to it (eg on your phase but after an attack) it takes an ADDITIONAL -2 on your OCV (so -4 in total). Also, although it does not mention it, I'd allow multiple rolls with punch - each at an additional -2 OCV, like multiple blocks.

 

I can see people investing a good few skill levels in that ability

[Steve]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Some rules' date=' or suggestions for how to use the current rules for a type of showdown mechanic which could cover anything from Japanese iajistu and two master's drawing against each other, to a high noon quickdraw showdown. I know there is the obvious, segment 12, who has the highest dex, they win, but that seems a bit dull. Legend of 5 Rings and several of the western games have rules for such a showdown and it would be nice to see that style adapted into Hero.[/quote']

 

I'd like to add my support for this suggestion. Some additions for expanding Iaijutsu showdowns and expanding PRE rules to reflect how staredowns work in the martial arts genre.

 

On constructing martial arts, I have a few ideas I'd like to see.

 

1) The Choke Hold: Since the Choke Hold technique doesn't add any extra strength on the Hold part, how does a weaker opponent maintain it for long enough to down an opponent? A good example of this is the fight between Wesley and the Giant in the movie "The Princess Bride."

 

2) Advantaged Martial Arts techniques: Since naked Advantages have been used in Dark Champions and Pulp Hero for gunplay techniques, I'd like to see how naked Advantages are applied to martial arts techniques in 6E.

 

3) Cost divisors: Martial arts techniques are a shorthand form for buying levels used with a specific attack and extra damage that is then reduced with a cost divisor. If the notion of naked Advantages are carried forward into 6E, I'd hope to see ideas on how they could work with cost divisors that would let more powerful techniques be built that may be more than 5 points but still fall into a similar cost structure.

[casualplayer]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- I don't want to see one shots

 

Something I would like to also see in HSMA is an emphasis on manuevers actually being a short section of a kata, hopefully resulting in the effect of the manuever. Some descriptors that show that even the simple jab is actually bobbing, weaving, feinting with the off-side shoulder then planting and driving off the back foot. Something that would explain why you would ever leave yourself open (-DCV) to enhance your chances of landing your blow (+OCV) or vice versa. Something to diminish the rochambeau aspect of many, many fights.

 

I would also like to see some wildarts powers taking advantage of the new powers included in 6th. Iron Shirt is likely now Damage Negation but Ki Barriers and such would be nice as well.

[Steve]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

New Skill Enhancer: Skilled Combatant - Costs 5 points, reduces the cost of all martial maneuvers by one point.

 

The cost is a bit arbitrary. Three points is definitely too cheap, and ten points would probably be too expensive. I remember someone figuring out where diminishing returns kicked in, but I don't remember what that point was.

 

In GURPS, such an ability is called "Trained By A Master," and something similar would make for a great Talent. It could be a requirement to unlock the availability of certain things, like the ability to even buy Power-based martial arts techniques. It could also be constructed to allow certain campaign limitations to be overcome. For example, if the majority of the campaign is Cinematic, maybe it would allow a character to have one or more Wuxia abilities.

 

I hope that HSMA uses Yeng Tao as an example of an "ultimate school" for martial arts in the campaigning information.

[Steve]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

When it comes to write-ups for characters, I'd like to see one or more hot martial artist women presented.

 

The character that Storn Cook drew for NH would be a good example. I'd like to see her write-up.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Perhaps a system of allowing martial artists to unlock access to higher point cost maneuvers (i.e., beyond the current hard cap of 5 point maneuvers) via some mechanism such as thresholds of points invested or a combat skill or both.

 

For instance, perhaps a martial artist with less than 25 points of maneuvers is limited to 5 point maneuvers, but reach a new threshold at 25 points invested and unlock access to 6 point maneuvers. 50 points unlocks 7 point maneuvers, 75 points unlocks 8 point maneuvers, and so forth.

 

The character could either learn new separate maneuvers of the applicable point cost, or upgrade their existing maneuvers by adding additional elements to them.

 

Such signature moves make a _real_ difference for true masters other than just cv and dc, and reward a character that has invested in martial arts rather than cherry picking a few good non-overlapping maneuvers.

 

I've done this in a few past campaigns on a case by case "signature move" basis rather than as a freely available option and its always worked out great.

[Sean Waters]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

That is a good idea: you could create a 'flavour rule' at present that you need two 3 point maneouvres to buy a 4 point one and a 4 point one to buy a 5 point one - so to buy two 5 point maneouvres you need to have spent 30 points on MA maneouvres.

 

Another option - someone mentioned the Language table to sort cost - perhaps not but something similar might allow you to build a table cross referencing maneouvres, or even styles: some maneouvres might work better - or worse - if they follow another particular maneouvre. Example table attached - hopefully

 

Equally some styles might be more effective against certain styles than others - all 'campaign rule' territory but potentially relly useful!

[Sean Waters]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

OK - I'll try that again.

 

Every MA Maneouvre (specific, named ones for actual MArts) get a letter.

 

Look up the letter in the left hand column for the maneouvre an opponent just used then pick a maneouvre of your own and cross reference its letter on the table - the number shown is a bonus or penalty that can be used exactly like skill levels - adding OCV, DCV or damage. If it is a negative number the opponent effectively gets the levels and can allocate them.

 

That means that you need 12 maneouvres with different letters to be able to most effectively counter any attack. Most MArts don't have that many.

 

Needs work, but it is an idea...

[Vondy]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

That could work - but I might rule that if you roll with punch before you could normally have aborted to it (eg on your phase but after an attack) it takes an ADDITIONAL -2 on your OCV (so -4 in total). Also, although it does not mention it, I'd allow multiple rolls with punch - each at an additional -2 OCV, like multiple blocks.

 

I can see people investing a good few skill levels in that ability

 

Seems reasonable to me.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Regarding sample characters:

 

At least a couple of them should feature Fictional Martial Arts Styles showcased in the book. This would not only give a variety of color, but also "flesh out" those styles a bit. Especially if the Star Hero character is an alien (a Catavalan or a Mon'dabi, perhaps, with a Martial Arts style that exploits the tail or extra arms?).

[Dino]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

SAMBO really deserves it's own write up separate from wrestling. Marine Corps Martial Arts and Modern Army Combatives are significantly different from Commando Training to get their own write ups as well. MMA has evolved into a standardized art these days so I would love to see that.

 

On the subject of maneuver elements: I would really like to see the return of the Block/Strike maneuver. Jeet Kune Do and Kajukenbo both teach "stop hits" and Krav Maga calls it "bursting", but it all comes down to blocking an attack while simultaneously striking your opponent.

[Sean Waters]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Another issue is non-human martial arts.

 

If there are races who are, say, quadrapeds, the chances of succeeding with a throw against one is much lower - unless, perhaps, the maneouvre is specifically designed to work against that race - in which case it will probably be less effective against biped races.

 

Similarly a nerve strike is only going to work if the nerves on the target are where you expect them to be - if a target is of a different race they may not be.

 

Perhaps you could buy 'racial elements' like you can buy weapon elements, so you can adapt your kung fu to alien species: without it you suffer an OCV penalty, perhaps, or a reduction in damage or, for things like nerve strikes, it might not work at all.

 

Similarly choke holds against some creatures will be completely ineffective: ever tried to strangle a horse? Me neither, but I imagine it is difficult, if not impossible. I've got a dog who can pull me along the street even if he has a choke chain on. Strikes would probably be least affected, nerve strikes most.

 

Of course this should apply even to non-martial maneouvres too.

[Steve Long]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

(a Catavalan or a Mon'dabi, perhaps, with a Martial Arts style that exploits the tail or extra arms?)

 

LOL, I think you've been sneaking a peek at my outline; I have both such things in there in some form.

[Sean Waters]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

So I can find out what MA I need to learn to strangle my dog after all!

[dmjalund]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

maybe we could have a Talent relating to "rolling with Punch" like a Defence Maneuver, so it can be sort-of always on in combat

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Perhaps a system of allowing martial artists to unlock access to higher point cost maneuvers (i.e., beyond the current hard cap of 5 point maneuvers) via some mechanism such as thresholds of points invested or a combat skill or both.

 

For instance, perhaps a martial artist with less than 25 points of maneuvers is limited to 5 point maneuvers, but reach a new threshold at 25 points invested and unlock access to 6 point maneuvers. 50 points unlocks 7 point maneuvers, 75 points unlocks 8 point maneuvers, and so forth.

 

The character could either learn new separate maneuvers of the applicable point cost, or upgrade their existing maneuvers by adding additional elements to them.

 

Such signature moves make a _real_ difference for true masters other than just cv and dc, and reward a character that has invested in martial arts rather than cherry picking a few good non-overlapping maneuvers.

 

I've done this in a few past campaigns on a case by case "signature move" basis rather than as a freely available option and its always worked out great.

 

Do you mean someting like the optional rule that were in Ninja Her 4th ? I would love to see that system to allow mutiple bases to make a "true" two handed system. Under those rules, you could have a block and strike manuever, but not a strike/strike manuever.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

New Skill Enhancer: Skilled Combatant - Costs 5 points, reduces the cost of all martial maneuvers by one point.

 

The cost is a bit arbitrary. Three points is definitely too cheap, and ten points would probably be too expensive. I remember someone figuring out where diminishing returns kicked in, but I don't remember what that point was.

 

After thinking about this for a while, I think that diminishing returns kick in after six maneuvers. That covers an offensive maneuver (strike), defensive maneuver (block/dodge), throw, disarm, and grab. Six points might be a more appropriate cost.