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Steve Long

HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Do you mean someting like the optional rule that were in Ninja Her 4th ? I would love to see that system to allow mutiple bases to make a "true" two handed system. Under those rules' date=' you could have a block and strike manuever, but not a strike/strike manuever.[/quote']

 

Hmm...I dont have my books handy at the moment and im not recalling an optional 4e NH thing such as you mention. From memory, in 5e UMA the build your own maneuver section caps custom maneuvers at a final cost of 5 points but does mention optionally allowing more expensive custom maneuvers in higher powered MA games (or maybe 5e NH covers it; I can't always keep the two separate in memory). I'm suggesting lifting the cap and integrating the concept into the rules as a stepped unlockable.

 

As far as mixing maneuvers, you could explicitly do that in 5e with Multiple Power Attacks, mixing maneuvers with different bases. I used this rule very heavily and encouraged players of MA's to do the same. It's an awesome thing, and makes MA's w/ diverse maneuvers very capable. Things like a MPA'd nerve strike disarm legsweep make for "woah!" kung-fu action theatre type moments. I'm assuming 6e has an equivalent. (I really need to take a week off and power thru the 6e books! It's really starting to annoy me having to make so many assumptions about it.)

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

A condensed version of Lucha Libre could be included under Professional Wrestling.

 

Similarly, what if there was a chart for rolling up a name for a maneuver?

 

What if there were subgenre-based alternatives for applicable martial arts writeups?

A martial art style to possibly look up is Chun Kuk Do - the body of martial arts techniques taught by Chuck Norris.

i'm late to this party but i agree with the main man

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I remembered being a bit confused about the Martial Shove maneuver in 5e UMA. What are the rules for non-martial shoving? I have about as much MA skill as the average potted plant, but I can still shove people. It might be a good idea to include additional non-martial combat maneuvers such as this.

 

I'd like to see, say, two example characters from each genre, just to show more variety. IOW, a "standard" MA superhero like Seeker or Crusader, but also a wierd one, like a multi-armed mutant whose MA is based on a non-standard physiology. A fantasy swordmaster, as well as an arena wrestler or monster martial artist. It could also be helpful to see example characters from the "minor" genres, like Victorian/steampunk.

 

Do you think there are any real-world martial arts styles that are missing from UMA that I should include in HSMA? Or are there any styles that need revision or expansion?

You definitely should include stujutsu, also known as mojutsu, kalarrypayit, and kurli, especially since you're including a coupon for key lime pie, since pies are one of the weapons elements of this martial art, as are common household and carpentry tools, even though it's mostly an open-handed art.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

 

After thinking about this for a while, I think that diminishing returns kick in after six maneuvers. That covers an offensive maneuver (strike), defensive maneuver (block/dodge), throw, disarm, and grab. Six points might be a more appropriate cost.

 

 

There are numerous maneouvres that allow a martial artist to do things that either cannot be done by a non-martial artist, or are at least really pretty difficult to do: throw, disarm, shove, nerve strike/choke (NND), eyepoke (Flash) and so on - arguably they all add real value.

 

However there is no point, at least in terms of points, in buying a basic martial strike and a more expensive one that does more but has the same or better modifiers: in 'real' martial arts you might learn several different strikes because they are more or less useful depending on wheat your opponent is doing. If I had a criticism of Hero MA (and IMO it is one of the best treatments of MA I've seen that retains playability) it would be that each combattant is fighting ont heir own - what they do is largely independent of what their opponent is doing, thee is no real sense of 'reaction'.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

IIRC in 3rd you could tag together 'combos' of MA maneouvres. Picj your maneouvres (which could include more than one strike), take the worst OCV and DCV modifier from the whole lot as your base OCV/DCV and then subtract 1 from OCV and DCV for each additional maneouvre after the first.

 

It worked pretty well.

 

Hmm...I do hope that was actually official and not just how we used to do it...

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

There are numerous maneouvres that allow a martial artist to do things that either cannot be done by a non-martial artist' date=' or are at least really pretty difficult to do: throw, disarm, shove, nerve strike/choke (NND), eyepoke (Flash) and so on - arguably they all add real value.[/quote']

 

Looking at 6erV2 p54, standard maneuvers now include Throw, Trip (which is a non-martial Martial Throw), Disarm and Shove. Optional maneuvers now include Choke. We don't appear to have a non-martial variant of Eyepoke or Throw Sand in Face. Offensive Strike is a Haymaker with better modifiers.

 

MA can allow a killing attack or nerve strike in basic 6e maneuvers - everything else can be done with normal maneuvers as well. HSMA will presumably reintroduce other maneuvers we had in 5e.

 

I agree with the concept of considering non-martial maneuvers that accomplish the same things, with worse modifiers and effects, than the martial maneuvers. I don't see a non-martial nerve strike being reasonable, or a non-martial KA being necessary, but poking someone in the eyes or boxing their ears seems like something a non-MA could do. Of course, the problem with this approach is that it probably makes a bunch of combat levels in HTH (to add to OCV, DCV and DC's flexibly) superior to purchasing a wide array of martial maneuvers. 6 levels and I can change my non-martial Choke to match a Martial one. 9 levels gives me an Offensive Strike without the OCV penalty. That's 72 points compared to 2 MA levels and 62 points of martial maneuvers, but it's vastly more flexible.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I don't see a non-martial nerve strike being reasonable' date=' or a non-martial KA being necessary, but poking someone in the eyes or boxing their ears seems like something a non-MA could do.[/quote']

 

Can a non-martial-artist kick somebody [male of female] brutally hard in the privates?

 

I ask because nerve strike has also been used to simulate sucker shots and dirty blows.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

...and you can do a killing attack by snapping someone's arm over your knee. Well, I say you can...it probably isn't that straightforward, but it should be possible for a non-trained normal to use a move that gets past non-resistant defences in some situations.

 

The problem is with Hero MA - and this is becoming a recurring theme - is that there is not a straight line increase in utility as you spend more points - there is a definite diminishing return, especially as you can now do a lot of things that were the province of Martial Arts as basic maneouvres now, as Hugh points out.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I think that CSL's seem balanced against MA with their increased costs.

 

I would personally consider a non-martial groin attack to be a Strike to the Vitals (Hit Location 13) in that it is still subject to standard sefenses, whereas a martial "Nerve Strike" can apply it well enough to bypass such defenses.

 

I agree that 2 martial artists per genre sounds about right, and I even further agree that having one be typical while the other is unorthodox is yet more opportunity to display the "reasoning from effect" bedrock principle of the system.

 

 

On to some more suggestions of my own:

 

This may be tough, but what about weight class simulation guidelines for more realistic campaigns?

 

What if Feint was reintroduced? And the Agility Skill version of Defense Maneuver for that manner?

 

How about an updated version of the FH Martial Artist package deal?

 

I don't know if there will be a book on psionics this time, so what about the expanded Mental Combat rules?

 

A thought about "advanced" Martial Maneuvers: what if there were were special elements only available at a certain threshold?

 

Like, "Can transfer 1 OCV for 1 DC up to +2 DC's," or "Gains +1 OCV when following Maneuver X?"

 

Those of course being off the top of my head ideas here.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

...and you can do a killing attack by snapping someone's arm over your knee. Well, I say you can...it probably isn't that straightforward, but it should be possible for a non-trained normal to use a move that gets past non-resistant defences in some situations.

 

The problem is with Hero MA - and this is becoming a recurring theme - is that there is not a straight line increase in utility as you spend more points - there is a definite diminishing return, especially as you can now do a lot of things that were the province of Martial Arts as basic maneouvres now, as Hugh points out.

 

Just a brainstorm: one option might be to put all of the "generic" martial maneuvers on the basic maneuvers list with substandard modifiers / effects and then allow people to purchase something along the lines of FAM with each one to remove the substandard modifiers, etc. We already let people pick up any weapon at -3 OCV. Why not maneuvers, too? A trained martial artist them becomes someone with the requisite maneuver familiarities (no draconian pens), skill levels, additional damage classes, and maybe custom/combo moves. It might not be the best idea for a default system, but it might work as a toolkitting option.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

....................

 

On to some more suggestions of my own:

 

This may be tough, but what about weight class simulation guidelines for more realistic campaigns?

 

Even though these two are technically in the same weightclass (heavyweight) there is no comparison - the guy on the left (Nicolai Valuev) is 7 stone heavier than the guy on the right (David Haye)...but Haye won the fight. Not saying it is a bad idea to look at weigh classes, i'm just saying they are not necessarily useful :) (Also difficult to do - you'd need to be realistic enough to impose characteristic maxima based on mass - which is probably impractical).

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]34308[/ATTACH]

 

 

........

 

I don't know if there will be a book on psionics this time, so what about the expanded Mental Combat rules?

 

................

 

I'll second this - mental martial arts - including perhaps a pure defensive art for those without actual mental powers could be cool.

 

Hmm. I've just thought: mental powers are invisible. If a target does not have Mental Awareness, should they not be subject to the rules for invisible attacks?

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Just a brainstorm: one option might be to put all of the "generic" martial maneuvers on the basic maneuvers list with substandard modifiers / effects and then allow people to purchase something along the lines of FAM with each one to remove the substandard modifiers' date=' etc. We already let people pick up any weapon at -3 OCV. Why not maneuvers, too? A trained martial artist them becomes someone with the requisite maneuver familiarities (no draconian pens), skill levels, additional damage classes, and maybe custom/combo moves. It might not be the best idea for a default system, but it might work as a toolkitting option.[/quote']

 

 

That could work. Hmm.

 

The only other way I could think would be to have 'skill trees' - you need to buy the basic maneouvre first and maneouvres higher up the tree are discounted because they have a prerequisite to purchase.

 

Having said that the feeling I get from Steve's posts is that there will not be any discount scheme as a basic rule - you'll get what you pay for.

 

It could, however, make a useful toolkitting guide for individual campaigns.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Even though these two are technically in the same weightclass (heavyweight) there is no comparison - the guy on the left (Nicolai Valuev) is 7 stone heavier than the guy on the right (David Haye)...but Haye won the fight. Not saying it is a bad idea to look at weigh classes, i'm just saying they are not necessarily useful :) (Also difficult to do - you'd need to be realistic enough to impose characteristic maxima based on mass - which is probably impractical).

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]34308[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

 

I'll second this - mental martial arts - including perhaps a pure defensive art for those without actual mental powers could be cool.

 

Hmm. I've just thought: mental powers are invisible. If a target does not have Mental Awareness, should they not be subject to the rules for invisible attacks?

 

I generally agree that weight isn't everything.

 

A less recent but more egregious example would be a very early UFC (when it really was more "human cockfighting" than sport IMO) bout in which a 165 lb fighter practically curbstomped a 600lb fighter.

 

That being said (and I'm pretty sure that we can generally agree on this), weight generally still matters, as do height and reach.

 

Reach advantage could be simulated with either limited HTH CSL's or else (for something more "Super-Skill-ish") limited Stretching.

 

Height could be simulated with slight DCV adjustments limited to Hit Locations 3-5. (harder to hit a significantly taller opponent in the head).

 

Obviously all of that is for more realistic campaigns but they add depth.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I also like the idea of a purely defensive mental martial art.

It would be like how the Martian Manhunter trained his fellow JLers how to defend themselves in mental combat.

 

What I would find interesting to boot would be more than one such style if possible.

 

I also like the idea of multiple mental martial arts as well as a style or two that incorporates a combination of Hand-to-Hand, Ranged, and/or Mental combat maneuvers into a single style.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I don't think Hero does combat in enough detail to make reach that important: after attacking you can not move but you can move before attacking, so if you used your reach, there is nothing to stop an opponent stepping in and hitting you.

 

Reach is better simulated by (as you mention) limited HtH DCV CSLs (do not work on someone of same size or bigger) as reach is usually used to keep an opponent too far away to hit you.

 

You probably shouldn't adjust hit locations based on height as height is not something that you pay for, but you could buy extra DCV (only in HtH when head targeted) making it more difficult to hit a person who is tall in the head.

 

In realist heavier usually means stronger - but obviously that does not necessarily translate into Hero - and there are only a relatively few graduations in the effect of STR on damage in the normal human range anyway.

 

I'm not arguing against you, but I do suspect that if you built a character with those skill levels etc due to size, it would be a relatively inefficient way to spend your points - meaning you might get beaten by the little guy anyway.

 

In the right campaign - where the layers and GM were willing to design characters to a very careful plan - it could work well though.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

From memory, in 5e UMA the build your own maneuver section caps custom maneuvers at a final cost of 5 points but does mention optionally allowing more expensive custom maneuvers in higher powered MA games. I'm suggesting lifting the cap and integrating the concept into the rules as a stepped unlockable.

I agree that a gradual purchase might make martial maneuvers more intriguing as a whole.

 

I think that it would go hand in hand with 6e's "it's your game, so we won't pigeon hole you, but if you ask us..." attitude that I like.

 

In fact, why not just let martial maneuvers begin at 1 point, and instead of a maneuver base, you build them as based on their non-martial counterparts?

As far as mixing maneuvers, you could explicitly do that in 5e with Multiple Power Attacks, mixing maneuvers with different bases. I used this rule very heavily and encouraged players of MA's to do the same. It's an awesome thing, and makes MA's w/ diverse maneuvers very capable. Things like a MPA'd nerve strike disarm legsweep make for "woah!" kung-fu action theatre type moments. I'm assuming 6e has an equivalent.

 

6e now has "Multiple Attack," which folds Sweep, Rapid Fire, and Multiple Power Attack into one maneuver and I think that it beautifully facilitates martial arts combos better than ever.

 

But perhaps some explanation on folding them together is needed.

 

Like can I use two Fast Strikes and then an Offensive Strike? (I would say yes).

 

If I can, what are my CV modifiers? (I would apply the overall OCV penalty from Multiple Attack to each maneuver, and then individually observe each maneuver OCV bonus per attack roll (Fast Strike (+2 OCV -4 OCV = net -2 OCV) versus Offensive Strike (-2 OCV -4 OCV = -6 OCV)), and then use the lowest DCV (Fast Strike +0) before halving it.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

.........................

 

6e now has "Multiple Attack," which folds Sweep, Rapid Fire, and Multiple Power Attack into one maneuver and I think that it beautifully facilitates martial arts combos better than ever.

 

But perhaps some explanation on folding them together is needed.

 

Like can I use two Fast Strikes and then an Offensive Strike? (I would say yes).

 

If I can, what are my CV modifiers? (I would apply the overall OCV penalty from Multiple Attack to each maneuver, and then individually observe each maneuver OCV bonus per attack roll (Fast Strike (+2 OCV -4 OCV = net -2 OCV) versus Offensive Strike (-2 OCV -4 OCV = -6 OCV)), and then use the lowest DCV (Fast Strike +0) before halving it.

 

That is how I'd do it: you also get the interesting strategic choice of what order to attack in :)

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Indeed you do.

 

Do I Legsweep him now, giving him the chance to Block it, or do I go with a few Martial Strikes to lower his OCV so that he cannot block my Legsweep then?

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Can a non-martial-artist kick somebody [male of female] brutally hard in the privates?

 

I ask because nerve strike has also been used to simulate sucker shots and dirty blows.

 

I would personally consider a non-martial groin attack to be a Strike to the Vitals (Hit Location 13) in that it is still subject to standard sefenses' date=' whereas a martial "Nerve Strike" can apply it well enough to bypass such defenses.[/quote']

 

Agreed

 

Just a brainstorm: one option might be to put all of the "generic" martial maneuvers on the basic maneuvers list with substandard modifiers / effects and then allow people to purchase something along the lines of FAM with each one to remove the substandard modifiers' date=' etc. We already let people pick up any weapon at -3 OCV. Why not maneuvers, too? A trained martial artist them becomes someone with the requisite maneuver familiarities (no draconian pens), skill levels, additional damage classes, and maybe custom/combo moves. It might not be the best idea for a default system, but it might work as a toolkitting option.[/quote']

 

I like this idea. Non-MA's can do these maneuvers at significant penalties. Basic MA's lose some or all of the penalties. It's at least worth considering.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

A buddy of mine was playing with a concept where your ks style could act as a power skill roll. What he suggested, was you would by the manuevers you wanted at regular price. Say you wanted to use a move that wasn't paid for, but was in your list of manuevers in your style, then you would roll your KS style and the modifier would be the cost of the move.

 

Example tkd guy didn't buy spearhand technique. Going against a samurai, he needs to use it. So his ks is 12- he would need 12-5=7< to be able to use the technique.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Some more ideas:

 

Reprinting the extra Hit Locations from DC would be handy for those more specific martial arts attacks (I lift my opponent up and break his spine over my knee etc).

 

The Wounding rules could be emphasized for submission fighting, maybe even advanced by taking cumulative EGO Roll penalties over time as BODY damage is accrued.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

A buddy of mine was playing with a concept where your ks style could act as a power skill roll. What he suggested, was you would by the manuevers you wanted at regular price. Say you wanted to use a move that wasn't paid for, but was in your list of manuevers in your style, then you would roll your KS style and the modifier would be the cost of the move.

 

Example tkd guy didn't buy spearhand technique. Going against a samurai, he needs to use it. So his ks is 12- he would need 12-5=7< to be able to use the technique.

 

That sounds like quite the intriguing toolkit idea to me.

 

And I was even thinking of posting the idea of martial arts being built as an Agility skill.

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I think it's funny that everyon is so focused on the "diminishing returns" aspect, when my own feeling about Martial Arts in Hero is that if anything those first 10 to 15 points are TOO efficient. And then you can get into adding Martial Damage Classes....

 

I've long felt that the justification for the "low low bargain price!" is that there is a kind of implied "Real Martial Artist" "Limitation" kind of like the Real Weapon Limitation. Quoting from SHREd, Vol.2:

 

 

"The GM should keep common sense in mind

when dealing with Martial Arts damage. ...

Even though a character can do,

for example, 9d6 with his Offensive Strike, he

shouldn’t necessarily be able easily to kick down

a wall or the bars of a jail cell. Even if game terms

say the wall only has 3 PD, 3 BODY per section,

or the jail bars are only 6 PD, 6 BODY, a little

dose of common sense tells you that people, even

trained martial artists, can’t routinely kick down

walls or smash jail bars with their bare hands.

Regardless of whether it’s possible in game terms

to do it, the GM can, and should, tell players their

characters can’t do these things, because it would

be just plain ridiculous."

 

I'd like something elaborating on this idea a little, making the point that the reason a martial artist can buy a few manuevers and damage classes and have a 12d6 attack for cheaper than someone buying that as a 12d6 blast or as 60 STR straight up is that this 12d6 attack is just not as good in some respects as super STR or a "super Power."

 

I suppose one way to reconcile what I'm asking and what some of the rest of you ask, is to suggest that those going over that "point of diminishing returns" (where ever that's determined to be) can be considered to have "bought off" the "limitation" and possibly CAN do things like kick down the bars of a cell or use a Nerve Strike on some alien being or use Throw vs a bull etc. That might be more reasonable for the true "Master" who has studied very deeply and practiced many different disciplines.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedery wants to see a Martial Art for quadrepeds!

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Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Perhaps there could be a list of axiomatic Power Limitations which can be removed with Power Advantages of inverted values.

 

For example, if the "Real" quality truly is a -1/4 limitation on martial maneuvers then it could be bought off for a +1/4 Power Advantage as per standard rules for applying them.

 

That way, the ability to break jail cell bars with a Martial or Fast Strike is not a 5-point ability, but rather a (assuming 10 STR) (30 Active Value x 0.25 = ~7 CP + 4 CP = 11 CP) ability, which sounds reasonable to me, considering that a PC would have to similarly modify every Martial Maneuver to affect inanimate objects with each of them which adds up very quickly.

 

I wonder if a similar logic could be applied to be able to block ranged attacks that are out of the norm (depending on the campaign)?

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