How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

[AnotherSkip]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

"...and direct application of excessive handwavium solves all..."

 

How about something directly outside of game mechanics. Like a plot device...

 

 

Actually I agree with this, after all a human has the ability of procreation that he did not pay points for. So why should any other character be required to pay points for procreation?

[Lucius]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Actually I agree with this' date=' after all a human has the ability of procreation that he did not pay points for. So why should any other character be required to pay points for procreation?[/quote']

 

If the vampire's progeny were a tiny helpless being that would be a drain on the progenitor's time and resources and a complication in their life for years to come before maturing to the point of being even moderately independent, let alone useful, the case would be analogous.

 

Or if a human's act of procreation resulted in the immediate or near immediate creation of a fully adult, very powerful secondary character that is more or less under the progenitor's control.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

and then there's the palindromedary

[Vondy]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

If transformation is used there is no need for either party to pay points beyond the transformation attack itself.

[dmjalund]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

The example does bring up the idea of a Resurrection/Healing based Transform as compared to one originated from killing attacks.

[Tasha]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

The example does bring up the idea of a Resurrection/Healing based Transform as compared to one originated from killing attacks.

 

Unfortunately that only models the kind of Vampirism transmission that is based on draining the person of all of their blood and killing them. Transform allows you to model Vampirism transmission based on the disease model (ie Daybreakers, Blade etc). It also means that the Vampire doesn't need to kill the person to transform them. It also bends the rules less because that Side Effect should be a Transform not just a "Person turns into a vampire"

 

I think that the healing back thing is being overstated. Transform came from the idea that if a killing attack can kill something, why not turn the thing into something else. IMHO once the double body has been passed, heal back by normal means should be nearly impossible. That it should require something like a resurrection effect on healing or another transform into something else. In the case of being a vampire having a special cure that is not readily available or known.

[dmjalund]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

what about zombies - or the vampire myth that all you have to be to become a vampire is to be buried in unconsecrated ground?

[PamelaIsley]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Which is why it falls easier under "plot device" than "game mechanic".

 

This is just hand waving. You could do that with every concept.

[PamelaIsley]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I wish I knew what you mean by "lots of pay-fors that don't fit many non-religious vampire concepts."

 

 

A Twilight vampire, for example, doesn't suffer from any of the common Vampire complications like running water, religious symbols, garlic, etc. So those complications can't be used to pay for the transformation.

[Greywind]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

This is just hand waving. You could do that with every concept.

Not if you expect consistency. The baseline character (pre-change) will be augmented and given several new disadvantages. There is no reasonable/explainable way to "heal" a vampire. According to all source material I've ever seen concerning mythic vampirism, regardless of regional consideration, the only way to fix a vampire, once changed, is to kill them.

 

Within a fantasy milieu, you have wish spells.

 

Within modern or super-heroic milieus you have a stake in the heart and decapitation, or fire.

[Lucius]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

A Twilight vampire' date=' for example, doesn't suffer from any of the common Vampire complications like running water, religious symbols, garlic, etc. So those complications can't be used to pay for the transformation.[/quote']

 

Okay, I think I understand.

 

If your concept includes lots of goodies but no drawbacks or weaknesses, it will be more expensive than if the concept includes a lot of power but also has restrictions or complications.

 

Yep, that's how it works. That's how it's supposed to work.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The super duper palindromedary that has no fear of crab cannons is more expensive than an ordinary palindromedary

[torchwolf]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

A Twilight vampire' date=' for example, doesn't suffer from any of the common Vampire complications like running water, religious symbols, garlic, etc. So those complications can't be used to pay for the transformation.[/quote']

Balancing points has the same issue for other "granted" Powers and other abilities.

Writing up some characters like Galactus granting powers to his Heralds would certainly run into the same issues, in most game systems that were at least partially based on the premise of balancing effectiveness.

Using Transform doesn't necessarily require a point-balanced result though; you can theoretically just make someone uberpowerful using the ability to grant Powers with Transform.

Looking at it another way, where exactly does the force/power/energy tapped into for creating vampires come from? If it is a necromantic plague or a curse, it might be useful to look into some possible, very far-reaching consequences and determine Complications or other factors which never come up in the descriptions of vampires. This might help balance the concept, if you want to keep it balanced against other abilities in the game - even if it doesn't actually provide points.

 

There is one other method of doing this to consider:

Writing up the actual method of inflicting/granting vampiric abilities, using the Usable on Others Advantage.

This method of course just dodges the issue of point balancing.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Pfft. The vampire transformation thing is easy. Just make it a side effect of Resurrection Healing.

 

Ha! That's my rationale for how vampirism got started in the first place in games with a mystical slant. Someone came back wrong.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Is this a character in a world where vampires do not feature much otherwise, or does the game involve vampires generally?

 

Also is a 'new' vampire basically the same as the old character PLUS stuff, or are all 'new' vampires pretty much identical, with perhaps, just different skills based ont heir past life?

 

You see just because you CAN build stuff with HERO doesn't mean you can not simply rule that anyone killed by a vampire's bite comes back as a NPC vampire - it is just what happens physiologically in that particular game world.

 

If vampires are a big part of the world then you need to think a lot about what happens and why.

 

One thing though: Transform works fine - and someone might have pointed this out - must admit I have not read the whole thread. What you do is you kill the character first then transform the corpse. Inanimate objects/dead things do not heal transform damage You're not supposed to give or take life with Transform but you are not - you start with a corpse and end with a vampire - which is still, technically, dead, although animate.

 

Mind you there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing the effect with summon: kill body, summon 'vampire demon' to inhabit it.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Is this a character in a world where vampires do not feature much otherwise, or does the game involve vampires generally?

 

Also is a 'new' vampire basically the same as the old character PLUS stuff, or are all 'new' vampires pretty much identical, with perhaps, just different skills based ont heir past life?

 

You see just because you CAN build stuff with HERO doesn't mean you can not simply rule that anyone killed by a vampire's bite comes back as a NPC vampire - it is just what happens physiologically in that particular game world.

 

If vampires are a big part of the world then you need to think a lot about what happens and why.

 

One thing though: Transform works fine - and someone might have pointed this out - must admit I have not read the whole thread. What you do is you kill the character first then transform the corpse. Inanimate objects/dead things do not heal transform damage You're not supposed to give or take life with Transform but you are not - you start with a corpse and end with a vampire - which is still, technically, dead, although animate.

 

Mind you there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing the effect with summon: kill body, summon 'vampire demon' to inhabit it.

or in the case of a twilight vampire have him empowered against his will

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Complete aside - and I've seen the movies but not read the books - how does a sparkly - sorry, Twilight - vampire pull another vampire's head off?

 

I mean a normal human couldn't pull another human's head off. OK vampires are much stronger than humans but that means that the vampire they are trying to pull the head off is also extremely strong, so, propotionally they still shouldn't be able to do it.

 

It's a mystery...

 

In fact there are now so many different versions of 'vampire' I'm not sure it is a useful descriptor anymore. Everyone is on the bandwagon and making up new stuff about them. What you need to do before you start is to decide what you mean by 'vampire', define that in Hero terms and then build it.

 

Is a vampire actually dead?

Damned?

Sparkly (WTF?)

Stronger, faster, better?

Blood crazed?

Vulnerable to garlic/staking/holy symbols?

Whatever...

[dmjalund]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

stronger doesn't necessarily mean harder to hurt (vampires have regen, but they can usually be damaged [temporarily] easily enough)

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

or in the case of a twilight vampire have him empowered against his will

 

That's another thing - is a vampire basically the same as the human they were but with vampire powers and a desire to drink blood OR something completely different that (perhaps) is able to draw on the memories of life but is in fact a different thing: is it immortality, bloodlust and power that corrupts (or MAY corrupt) a vampire or is the fact that it is a vampire, plain and simple that means it has a non-human morality and psychology.

 

Points only really matter when they intersect with the players. You don't need to work out the build for the whole world. So, if the players may become vampires (and still continue playing the character) or whether becoming a vampire basically 'NPCs' them.

 

The 'Hero approved' way to do this would be to use summon, but summon works for a fixed number of points so, for instance, if a superpowered being were to become a vampire, would they still retain their powers from life? If the answer is 'Yes' then that presents a problem - but not an insurmountable one. A 100 point summon can create a 500 point vampire. Also the nice thing about summon is that a 'new' vampire (being summoned) will be beholden to the creator - they will have a number of tasks to perform before they are 'free'.

 

Now Transform is obviously much cheaper - but you do need to change the way thee rules work to make it work - despite what I said above about animating a corpse, that is cheating - and if you do simply transform the 'living' character then they have to be able to heal - or there has to be a cure for vampirism.

 

The idea of simply giving a character more power is anathema to a point balance system. It doesn't matter if all the characters are going to get a power boost, as that is a zero sum - it does matter if only some are.

[PamelaIsley]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

In my mind summon is not appropriate because a vampire template must be able to be applied to any character, regardless of point value, and summon has an inherent cap. If you choose to have a vampire template replace a previous character's sheet, then you could do it that way, but that would run counter to most takes on vampires. The vampire I have in mind (and the most common depiction, I would argue), adds vampire characteristics on top of a previous character. In other words, you add powers and drawbacks; you don't replace them.

 

Healing back from a vampire transformation is an issue. If you state "miracle" as the heal-back condition, is that really any less believable than the frog transformation heal back of "kissed by a princess"? Finding a princess in any world is going to be very, very difficult. The reality, of course, is that you don't heal back from being a vampire in most takes on the concept.

 

Most alternatives proposed here skirt the rules, bend them, or use rule constructions that strike me as bizarre. That brings me back to the point I made before: Hero really can't do a common vampire transformation mechanically. That's a shame. This comes up in a lot of genres (fantasy, pulp, superhero) and really shouldn't be this hard to construct. Even if you use the complication-heavy religious vampire concept, you still run into the heal back problem that gives people pause. And if you try to do a more "modern" take on a vampire without all the esoteric drawbacks (like garlic, running water, religious symbols), you run into the cost issue.

 

Also, to me, points always matter. Everything must be built according to the rules and everyone must play by the same rules. Otherwise, why use a rule set at all? I don't approve of hand waving or plot devices and any system that forces you to resort to those as a matter of course (rather than convenience) is flawed.

 

I also don't think this idea is anathema to a point balance system. It's anathema here because of some of the strange decisions Hero makes in power construction (the transform power is simply odd for a number of reasons), but it isn't incompatible with gaming in this kind of system.

[torchwolf]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Hero System has changed a bit in 6th Edition regarding point balancing:

Matching Complications now equal about 20-30% of the total amount used to build a character. This is because there simply isn't much meaning in applying disadvantages of different kinds beyond a certain point, since there is no room in the game to utilize any number of Complications without eventually derailing the focus of a game or a story, so point balancing beyond a certain point can become counterproductive.

 

Logically, this can also apply to increasing the available points, meaning that to be balanced against the available Character Points to build the abilities, the Matching Complications of this need not be beyond 20-30% of any increase in points.

 

Even if you don't agree with this, there is another thing to consider about vampires: there are several other possible Complications which are implied but not explicitly expressed in source literature:

 

• Distinctive Features, Detectable with Uncommonly-Used Senses: Supernatural/Undead/Unnatural Aura (Type of Aura and/or Reaction variable depending on source literature)
  
• Negative Reputation (variable as above; likely to be Extreme)
  
• Social Complication (variable as above; usually most people feels there is something odd about the vampire, perhaps causing a -2 to Interactions Skills etc.)
  

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

In my mind summon is not appropriate because a vampire template must be able to be applied to any character, regardless of point value, and summon has an inherent cap. If you choose to have a vampire template replace a previous character's sheet, then you could do it that way, but that would run counter to most takes on vampires. The vampire I have in mind (and the most common depiction, I would argue), adds vampire characteristics on top of a previous character. In other words, you add powers and drawbacks; you don't replace them.

 

Healing back from a vampire transformation is an issue. If you state "miracle" as the heal-back condition, is that really any less believable than the frog transformation heal back of "kissed by a princess"? Finding a princess in any world is going to be very, very difficult. The reality, of course, is that you don't heal back from being a vampire in most takes on the concept.

 

Most alternatives proposed here skirt the rules, bend them, or use rule constructions that strike me as bizarre. That brings me back to the point I made before: Hero really can't do a common vampire transformation mechanically. That's a shame. This comes up in a lot of genres (fantasy, pulp, superhero) and really shouldn't be this hard to construct. Even if you use the complication-heavy religious vampire concept, you still run into the heal back problem that gives people pause. And if you try to do a more "modern" take on a vampire without all the esoteric drawbacks (like garlic, running water, religious symbols), you run into the cost issue.

 

Also, to me, points always matter. Everything must be built according to the rules and everyone must play by the same rules. Otherwise, why use a rule set at all? I don't approve of hand waving or plot devices and any system that forces you to resort to those as a matter of course (rather than convenience) is flawed.

 

I also don't think this idea is anathema to a point balance system. It's anathema here because of some of the strange decisions Hero makes in power construction (the transform power is simply odd for a number of reasons), but it isn't incompatible with gaming in this kind of system.

 

I'm generally against rules that are in the system just for the sake of balance, but I can see the point with transform. If you can add an unlimited amount of power (or even a limited specific amount) - permanently - everyone is going to want some. As has been suggested if you think through carefully what a 'vampire' is and can balance those additional points with complications, perhaps little harm will be done, but if the power fillup exceeds the additional complications, that is just more points for free - hence my comments.

 

Summon can work if you know the largest point total of any character likely to be vampirised - but that is kludgy. In 5e you could use a small summon and a 0 END continuous/cumulative succor tot he summon - turning a powerful character would take longer but you could do it. I don't think you can do that in 6e.

 

Like I say there is a world of difference between building for a vampire in a game and a game about vampires. I don't know how MnM does it, but I'd be surprised if it just gave you a vampire template to tack onto a character unless - as here - that template was balanced as to advantages and disadvantages.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

stronger doesn't necessarily mean harder to hurt (vampires have regen' date=' but they can usually be damaged [temporarily'] easily enough)

 

Well, I'd assume that stronger would mean that your body would be strong enough to withstand the stresses of your new strength or you'd rip your arms out of your sockets when you tried to life something heavy. Vampire flesh might not be much harder to cut than human flesh but it should have greater tensile strength - hence it should be just as difficult for a V to pull of another V's head as for a human to pull off a humans.

 

Perhaps they don't simply pull off an opponent's head - perhaps they grow claws and sever the neck.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

That brings me back to the point I made before: Hero really can't do a common vampire transformation mechanically.

 

No - you're wrong. completely, 100% incorrect. This statement is as false as they come.

 

What can't happen is a generic "this will work in all games" construct of how to create a vampire - or werewolf, or mummy, or mutant, or any other thing from any source material where one thing is turned into another thing.

 

You must - absolutely positively no if/ands/buts about it - MUST construct the rules of the Game Being Played first; mechanical-changey-thing second.

[Lucius]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

The reality, of course, is that you don't heal back from being a vampire in most takes on the concept.

 

Which means, basically, that the human-who-was is dead.

Like I said, Prestidigitator nailed it. The victim is killed (either as a prerequisite, or basically as the process of making them a vampire) and the Old Vampire uses a form of Resurrection to bring the character to "life" as a New Vampire.

 

Whether there is a period during which a non-vampire corpse exists before it becomes New Vampire, or whether New Vampire IS the only corpse because the act of killing the old character and of raising them as a vampire are conceptually identical, is a matter of Special Effects.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Duplicating the palindromedary

[dmjalund]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I always thought that if a character has his points increased because of a "radiation accident"

1) all XP he already has must go to this.

2) any XP he earns, until the increase has been paid off go toward this.

3) until he has paid these XP, he has not "mastered" his new abilities.

 

I do not see why this would not apply to becoming a vampire

[Greywind]

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Old school radiation accident was 50 points that just disappeared so that a player could rewrite his character.