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PamelaIsley

How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

What if a player character is turned into a vampire?

 

I was going to ask “What if a player character is killed in any other way?” But I think you really mean one or both of these two points (correct me if I'm wrong)

1.If a player character's corpse rises as a vampire, I want the player to play the vampire as a player character

2.If a player character's corpse rises as a vampire, I want there to be some way that the player character can come back to true life

 

As for the first point, I don't think it's illegal for a player character to be a Summoned creature – I hope not, I know I've played one. But the second point practically calls out for Transform.

 

So does the fact that, in some source material I'm aware of, it's a process playing out over extended time. Transform with Cumulative matches that.

 

I also don't understand the Hero concept of using a power that is completely unrelated thematically to what you're trying to do

 

Well, you're right that Summon is “unrelated thematically” to vampirism.

 

Transform is unrelated thematically to vampirism.

 

Killing Attack is unrelated thematically to vampirism. So is Growth, and Knockback Resistance, and Duplication.

 

All Powers (capital P Powers, the mechanical elements in the core book, as opposed to actual specific power constructs attached to specific characters) are unrelated thematically to being a vampire, or being a mutant with cold powers, or being a jedi, or being from Faerie, or being a robot. They are deliberately generic. They may be better or worse at creating a given desired effect, but no Power is more “thematically related” to whatever you're trying to do than any other power.

 

In other words, it's up to you to create your own thematic relationships by crafting and presenting the power construct in such a way as to fulfill your vision of “what you're trying to do.”

 

With that said, and with admitted uncertainty about how useful this will be, I have another suggestion to approaching this situation – Healing with Resurrection and some pretty severe Side Effects. That certainly eliminates any doubt that it's the same character and has the same player.

 

to simulate something because of the clunky interaction of Hero rules. This reminds me too much of desolidification as a way to simulate immunity to certain type of damage.

 

I hate Desolidification. I was really hoping it would either be eliminated or fixed somehow in the New Dispensation.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Views expressed by Lucius Alexander are not necessarily those of the House of the Palindromedary, members of the Household, allies or affiliates of the House, or the Palindromedary

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I disagree with your thematic argument.

 

I also just don't think summon works at all. It doesn't achieve the right effect. But this is a circular discussion. I'm not going to be convinced and I doubt anyone else is either.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Well, you hand waved the heal problem that held me up.

 

Very impressive though in all other ways.

 

Another "Classic" "heal back" is taking out the Vamp who transformed the Victum in the first place (usually before the new Vamp feeds for the first time, more drama that way...)

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I also don't understand the Hero concept of using a power that is completely unrelated thematically to what you're trying to do to simulate something because of the clunky interaction of Hero rules. This reminds me too much of desolidification as a way to simulate immunity to certain type of damage.

 

You transform into a vampire. The old vampire is not summoning a new vampire.

 

First, a Powers Mechanical Name may have absolutely nothing to do with what you're doing - it's not thematics; it's Mechanics & Special Effects.

 

"Energy Blast" (which is what Blast was called until 6E) is actually a good example of the idea - throwing a rock at someone was Energy Blast. Normal Damage with a Ranged Attack. Rocks are not Energy.

 

Moving beyond that... depending on how you view a Vampire coming into the world, you may or may not be "summoning" something; regardless of whether you use Summon or Transform.

 

Here's a couple idea of Vampirism and what it might be (which is irrelevant to what the Powers it may have are):

1) The possession of a human corpse by a malevolent spirit

2) A Viral infection that animates and keeps alive an otherwise dead body, keeping memories and persona in tact

3) A particularly vicious soulless corpse, intelligence from its life as a human is intact, but the personality may be warped due to a lack of soul

 

Either way, what happens when a person is made into a vampire is that the Human Body is replaced with a Vampire Body; Intellect, Soul, and Persona may transfer with it creating a classic Braham Stoker Vampire ala Dracula. (or version based off Anne Rice, or any other number of modern authors).

 

Mechanically what's happening? Is the human killed? possibly. We'll say yes. Is a Vampire brought into existence? Most definitely. How?

 

Thematically, doesn't matter. The point is you're doing one of two things on a purely Mechanical Level:

 

Summon: summon does on thing; takes a creature from somewhere (or absolutely nowhere) and creates it whole clothe right there in front of you. BING! New creature that wasn't there before is there now. Various Modifiers can be used to shape various Special Effects, but the very basic Summon does one thing and one thing only: A Character Sheet that wasn't there before is there now.

 

Transform: Changes Thing A into Thing B. Nicely convenient that we have Thing A (Person) and Thing B (Vampire) all ready to go, and there's rules built into remove and add Powers, Complications and all kinds of nifty stuff. Changing Character Sheet A into Character Sheet B seems pretty much custom built for Transform.

 

Now; issues with both ideas; Summon has a duration, eventually the Summoned Creature goes away. Well - that's easy enough to model, your Newly Minted Vampire just wanders off into the night. . . Transform has that Healing Back issue, well, what is Healing Back - it's Thing B turning back into Thing A. If Thing A was a Human Corpse Freshly Killed then Healing Back should be self evident: Killing The Vampire (Thing B) Heals it right back to a Corpse. There, that's nicely satisfied.

 

Builds:

Summon; A Vampire; Focus (Human Corpse) Obvious, Accessible; Extra Time 1 Minute (to infuse it with all that vampiry goodness); NOTE: Human Corpse Focus is used up during the Summon Process, all gone. (the Focus avoids the messy question of "Does the human corpse return once the Summoned Creature goes away?" - no, it does not.)

 

Transform, Severe; Freshly Made Human Corpse into Freshly Minted Vampire; Heal Back Condition: Kill The Vampire.

 

Same idea, different Mechanical approaches, same end result. Choose the one that works best for you.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

There's something very wrong conceptually with using the Summon mechanic. I had a longer post about it, but I see no reason to continue the debate. If you think that turning a person into a vampire equates to killing them and summoning a new creature, then use summon.

 

I'm almost finished with my own template.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I can't come up with enough offsets for a Twilight vampire.

 

Twilight vampires cast reflections, do not die in sunlight, can enter homes uninvited, and are not susceptible to things like garlic and holy symbols.

 

They don't have a lot of powers (the multiform and summoning powers in particular), but are almost indestructible.

 

Here is what I have so far:

 

Vampire Template:

 

STR +20

DEX +5 (10)

Body +10

 

PD +5

ED +5

 

SPD +10

 

Total Cost: 60

 

Talents and Skills

 

Striking Appearance (Strangely Attractive, +2d6) (6)

 

Powers

 

Teeth (HKA 1d6, 3d6 with STR, Penetrating +1/2, 0 End +1/2, +1 Increased Stun +1/4, Must have Target in Grab -1 1/2); (10)

 

Blood Drain (Drain Body 1d6, Constant +1/2, 0 End +1/2, Teeth Must Do Body First -1/2, Must have Target in Grab -1 1/2); (7)

 

Create Vampire (Severe Transform 2d6, Human into Vampire, Heals Back at Death, 0 End +1/2, Constant +1/2, Only Works on Targets Reduced to 0 Body by Blood Drain -1, All Or Nothing -1/2, Limited to Humans -1/2); (20)

 

Diamond Skin (Physical Damage Reduction 50%; Energy Damage Reduction 25%) (45)

 

Diamond Skin II (Resistant Protection 3 PD / 3 ED) (9)

 

Vampiric Regeneration (3 BODY per Day, Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection, Stopped

by cutting off its head and burning the body, Resurrection Only -2); (12)

 

Life Support (Immunity: All terrestrial poisons, All terrestrial diseases; Longevity: Immortal; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Self-Contained Breathing) (29)

 

Leaper (Leaping 8 M) (4)

 

Swift (Running 12 M) (12)

 

Nightvision (5)

 

Total Cost: 153

Vampire Cost: 219

 

Complications:

Distinctive Feature (Vampire, Not Concealable; Extreme Reaction) (15)

Distinctive Feature (Diamond Skin, Concealable, Extreme Reaction, Common Senses, Only in Sunlight) (15)

Distinctive Feature (Pale Skin and Eyes, Not Concealable, Not Distinctive in some cultures or societies) (10)

Negative Reputation: (Infrequently, Extreme, Known Only to Small Group) (5)

Psychological Complication (Thinks of Humans as Food, Very Common, Strong) (20)

Hunted (Vampire Hunters, Frequently, As Powerful, Kill) (15)

Hunted (Werewolves, Infrequently, As Powerful, Kill) (10)

Dependence (Blood Weakness: -3 To Characteristic Rolls and related rolls per time increment, Difficult To Obtain, 1 Day, Addiction) (5)

Vulnerability (Fire, 2x Body Damage, Common) (20)

Social Complication (Cannot Engage in Activities in Sunlight, Frequently, Severe) (20)

 

Total: 135

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

There's something very wrong conceptually with using the Summon mechanic. I had a longer post about it' date=' but I see no reason to continue the debate. If you think that turning a person into a vampire equates to killing them and summoning a new creature, then use summon. [/quote']

It is not "wrong". There are multiple ways to do everything and anything in Hero. Is Summon the best way to do a vampire? I don't think so. I don't like using Summon in that way. But there is nothing "wrong conceptually" about using it. There are multiple options. I don't think anyone is debating you saying you should use Summon, just that it is one option. Denying that it is a legitimate option, and going as far as saying it's actually wrong to do it that way is a distinctly un-Hero way to do things.

 

EDIT: Personally, I agree with you in that I don’t like using Summon for the “‘turning’ a vampire” ability, but that’s just my opinion. There is nothing mechanically or SFX wise that makes it wrong. I think your issue is purely semantics. You are getting hung up on the word “summon”.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

There is no wrong in HERO, just GM approved or disapproved. And since it is PamelaIsley's template....

 

Does the Transform really have to be much at all? The victim is usually at -BODY when the Transform-ation happens. Doesn't 1 pip do the trick? Maybe make it Trigger if BODY Drain puts the victim into the negatives?

 

Twilight vampires don't have enough offsets because they are not balanced characters. You can have one of three things: all Twilight vampires so everyone is equally unbalanced, adjust your template to be less Twilighty or get used to the non-vampires griping a lot.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I don't - personally - particularly like the Summon solution.

 

But it is a Mechanically Acceptable Solution - meaning it is not "wrong" as the end result is from a Pure Mechanics Standpoint exactly what you want to have happen. One thing is gone (Human) and another is there (Vampire).

 

Just from my brief observations of your interactions with Hero - you aren't going far enough in the Reason From Effects approach to truly expand your use and understanding of the Hero System.

If the Mechanics gets you Mechanically from Point A To Point B or achieves Mechanically what you want to have happen then it's merely a matter of applying Special Effects to turn Mechanic into Game Play.

 

There is often, if not always, two or more ways to do the same thing with the Hero System. No one way will be More or Less Correct than any other. They are only Which I Like Better.

 

Saying "wrong" is off. Saying "I like this one better" is a more accurate and open approach.

 

If you ask me which one I would use, it would be Transform. Though I kind of like my Summon build.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I am no Hero veteran and my knowledge of the system is incomplete, but my opinion on Summoning isn't going to change. Summoning is not achieving the same mechanical effect. It's achieving a similar mechanical effect in a very different way.

 

If a vampire bites a PC and turns them into a vampire, the mechanic of that transformation should be represented by the application of a vampire template to the character's existing sheet. The power that does this is Transform. It would be odd to make the PC start over and hand them entirely new character sheet. I think this applies equally to any NPC, but the PC example seems to make a stronger point.

 

If, however, you think all vampires will be the same (they will not be built on the base character killed), you could make summoning work. That just isn't how I picture a vampire transformation working.

 

Again, I deleted a very long post on this. I just don't see the point of turning this discussion into a longer debate.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I am no Hero veteran and my knowledge of the system is incomplete, but my opinion on Summoning isn't going to change. Summoning is not achieving the same mechanical effect. It's achieving a similar mechanical effect in a very different way.

 

I know, I know, I shouldn't be continuing this. Just keep in mind that people who have more experience with the system consider summon appropriate. 6e1:291 specifically gives the example of creating a Vampire with summon. And the rules from transform explicitly forbid turning dead matter into live; 6e1:307 "Characters cannot Transform inanimate objects into living beings — that’s a special effect of Summon. A chair Transformed into a frog becomes a frog, but a dead one."

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, transform is OK if you want to build it that way, I'm just saying others aren't wrong either. In my campaign (if I ever start one again), this would be Summon targeted corpse as a vampire, expanded class of beings, specific being.

 

If a vampire bites a PC and turns them into a vampire, the mechanic of that transformation should be represented by the application of a vampire template to the character's existing sheet.

 

A PC transforming into a vampire does not *NEED* any mechanic. Having a mechanic is fine, you just don't need one at all. The same way the plot devices aren't always stated out, changing a PC doesn't need to be either. If the PCs character is unplayable after this then it doesn't matter how it's done and simply killing the character is sufficient. The fact that they return as the malevent living dead is story, not to different from how the major villain of a piece "couldn't possibly survive that". If the PC remains playable then applying this to a PC should be more like a radiation accident that changes the character sheet with the players full blessing. Like a good radiation accident it needs justification not a mechanic.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I can't come up with enough offsets for a Twilight vampire.

 

Whatever method you use you're going to have problems adding that much power with out limitations. I think you're going to have to step outside the mechanics to do it well. There are a few possibilities that i see:

 

  • If this is applied to an NPC you simply give it to them in the interest of the story. You build NPCs to match what they should do, so just do it.
  • Applied to a PC treat it like a radiation accident. If they have banked XP they spend it to do this. If you know ahead of time that this is coming up have the player set aside XP pay for it. Finally if this comes up and the PC does not have enough banked XP start docking them XP until it is payed for.
  • 100+ points is a lot to bank and/or payoff. You may have to just give it to them in the interest of the story. If everyone is having fun it's OK to have imbalanced power ratios. This is hard to do though and requires a good GM and good players.
  • If this is a major point in the campaign and is known from the start. Start the character(s) who will be transformed on less points. Once the transform happens everyone is at or near the same power level.

 

Good luck.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

100+ points is a lot to bank and/or payoff.

 

I might recommend: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/76575-Subsidized-Buy-in-Subsidized-Hold-Back

 

If a player earns 3 XP per game and banks it all for 13 games in the system linked, thy will have 100 character points in their GM XP pool.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Teeth (HKA 1d6, 3d6 with STR, Penetrating +1/2, 0 End +1/2, +1 Increased Stun +1/4, Must have Target in Grab -1 1/2); (10)
I'm pretty sure the damage of a kill attack can only by doubled by strength

further moire the 3d6 will kill normals possibly decapitating them

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I'm pretty sure the damage of a kill attack can only by doubled by strength

further moire the 2d5 kill bill will kill normals possibly decapitating them

 

6E removed the doubling rule as a default and made it an optional rule.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

ya someone else else edited my post above

check the ip addresses of my entries please

I have two

 

well there's gonna be a lot of filtering advantage multiplication

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Just define the heal-back/reversal requirement as "an extremely obscure magic ritual performed by a coven of white mages"--it will almost certainly never come up in game' date=' and in the unfortunate circumstance that one's DNPC is transformed into a vampire, the heroes have an interesting quest on their hands.[/quote']

 

My favorite idea is this: Reversal condition: take this stick, wave it around in the air, then break it over your knee. Except that as soon as I've got the guy transformed, the stick goes into a wood chipper, and the chips burned into ash.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Whatever method you use you're going to have problems adding that much power with out limitations. I think you're going to have to step outside the mechanics to do it well. There are a few possibilities that i see:

 

  • If this is applied to an NPC you simply give it to them in the interest of the story. You build NPCs to match what they should do, so just do it.
  • Applied to a PC treat it like a radiation accident. If they have banked XP they spend it to do this. If you know ahead of time that this is coming up have the player set aside XP pay for it. Finally if this comes up and the PC does not have enough banked XP start docking them XP until it is payed for.
  • 100+ points is a lot to bank and/or payoff. You may have to just give it to them in the interest of the story. If everyone is having fun it's OK to have imbalanced power ratios. This is hard to do though and requires a good GM and good players.
  • If this is a major point in the campaign and is known from the start. Start the character(s) who will be transformed on less points. Once the transform happens everyone is at or near the same power level.

 

Good luck.

 

Well, not exactly.

 

Bear in mind, I'm still working from a 5th edition frame of reference here, so 6ED compliance will have to be checked, but as the root problem, mechanically speaking, is that the character is suddenly jumping up a bunch of points, there are two rules legal approaches I can think of, both mentioned here previously.

 

Transform is the obvious first choice... there's that oft overlooked aspect of Transform where it can add points in the course of the transformation. In 5th it's +5 Points per extra target Body, used for adding things like Wings and Claws, but with as much utility for other things. This does shift the build tho... Rather than an All or Nothing aimed at a low target number for a mostly drained out victim, you will have a base target Body equal to the points in your Vampire Package/5. I'd probably do this as a Continuous 1d6 Transform (possibly Uncontrolled). Thus a single application of the attack will eventually Transform the target, but there will be some variation in the time the change takes. This is my preferred model.

 

The Summon approach would be a legal way as well, just make sure that the max points you can Summon are well above what you'd prepare for as the max point level you'd expect a real human character to hit, add the points for the Vampire package and Bob's yer uncle. Don't even need a new sheet for the newly "Summoned" vampire unless you're going to be pruning off a lot of bits that might not translate to the new form (for example, in a lot of settings removing Faith based Powers upon conversion). Summon does have the pesky wearing off/number of tasks bit, however. Not to mention the "Specific Target" and Loyalty advantages make it a not cheap approach. Once again, could fit depending on your personal style of Vampirisim.

 

I'm pretty sure you could work it with Duplication as well, but that's WAY too messy for my tastes.

 

Oh, and by the by, in general reference to the overall thread, I'm kinda surprised no one mentioned the Vampire Template in 5th FH. While distinctly different that what I've heard of Twilight Vampires, it could still lend a few benchmarks. It's worth noting that after disads it's still a +91 point Package, and it doesn't include any Stat increases, and yeah... Vampire Packages are a heap buncha points to drop on all at once, pretty much no matter how you write 'em or what sub-genre type you're aiming for.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Transform is the obvious first choice... there's that oft overlooked aspect of Transform where it can add points in the course of the transformation. In 5th it's +5 Points per extra target Body' date=' used for adding things like Wings and Claws, but with as much utility for other things. This does shift the build tho... Rather than an All or Nothing aimed at a low target number for a mostly drained out victim, you will have a base target Body equal to the points in your Vampire Package/5. I'd probably do this as a Continuous 1d6 Transform (possibly Uncontrolled). Thus a single application of the attack will eventually Transform the target, but there will be some variation in the time the change takes. This is my preferred model.[/quote']

I like this best as well, and that is how I would build most vampires in my main campaign, plus I like to use the Partial Transform advantage to simulate how it can take place gradually, as in some source material where the victim gains a few abilities at a time with an increased aversion to sunlight and a growing appetite for blood (and an abnormal interest in glaring wantonly at jugular arteries).

 

The Summon approach would be a legal way as well' date=' just make sure that the max points you can Summon are well above what you'd prepare for as the max point level you'd expect a real human character to hit, add the points for the Vampire package and Bob's yer uncle. Don't even need a new sheet for the newly "Summoned" vampire unless you're going to be pruning off a lot of bits that might not translate to the new form (for example, in a lot of settings removing Faith based Powers upon conversion). Summon does have the pesky wearing off/number of tasks bit, however. Not to mention the "Specific Target" and Loyalty advantages make it a not cheap approach. Once again, could fit depending on your personal style of Vampirisim.[/quote']

It should not be ruled out entirely even if you pick another preferred option for the campaign - it is useful for some concepts. There are many kinds of vampires, after all.

 

I'm pretty sure you could work it with Duplication as well' date=' but that's WAY too messy for my tastes.[/quote']

Agreed, I'm not sure I'd want to go that road more than the way of EDM to dimension where character is a vampire.:rolleyes:

 

Oh' date=' and by the by, in general reference to the overall thread, I'm kinda surprised no one mentioned the Vampire Template in 5th FH. While distinctly different that what I've heard of Twilight Vampires, it could still lend a few benchmarks. It's worth noting that after disads it's still a +91 point Package, and it doesn't include any Stat increases, and yeah... Vampire Packages are a heap buncha points to drop on all at once, pretty much no matter how you write 'em or what sub-genre type you're aiming for.[/quote']

Good suggestion! On the points issue: it would have to depend on campaign.

In a Heroic campaign without the presence of any powers, there would have to be campaign reasons why the characters wouldn't want to be vampires just to be powerful, but that could be presented by the GM in a convincing fashion: "OK, vampires are powerful, but do you really have any idea of their life expectancy with the sheer number of enemies they get?"

In campaigns where there are Powers available to PCs it can be easily remedied: I did it by reasoning that as characters are both physically and supernaturally altered by becoming vampires, they lose the ability to possess most Powers or use magic in a way open to other characters. This made my players consider it a true curse to become a vampire (they found out about this before it happened to any of them and then they were horrified enough to begin hunting the suckers).

The old WoD had the same principle of losing abilities if/when Mages became vampires, don't know about the new one.

In general, if the players feel that you lose something if you become a vampire (even if that is left vague along the lines of being cursed somehow), the points difference will matter less in the campaign.

 

IME, YMMV. :)

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

have you tried buliding the twilight "vampires" as mutants/mutation would that lessen the conufsion or double it?

 

The problem with building a Twilight vampire is they don't suffer from enough complications to pay for the transformation. The lowest gap I could come up with was about 80 points, which equates to 16 additional body (a lot).

 

For this reason, this project shifted to the backburner. My vampire villain is completely done, but without a usable template to apply to his victims (and I think vampires would retain superpowers; in fact, in Twilight extraordinary character traits are made more powerful by the transformation, though I did not try to model this), there is little use for a vampire.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

If it's a good idea don't drop it because because you can't come up with a cost for the mechanics cost it. This is a plot device and plot devices don't need to be costed cleanly.

 

If this is for an NPC just give them the ability. NPC costs are hidden from the players so they'll never know anyway.

 

If this ability is for a PC you can just set a value that seems appropriate. Treat it like a perk, 10 points to be able to turn others.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Multiform.

 

That's what you are looking for. I got the idea when I was looking through the Enchanted Items book. In it there is an item called the "Crown of the troll king". What happens is whenever someone puts the crown on they are transformed into a Troll, but they keep their own skills and any characteristics that are better then a normal troll. This is basically what is happening when you turn someone into a vampire. They are taking on a new form with some better stats and powers, but also keeping their own skills and INT, EGO, etc...

 

So you should build it as a multiform. One that the Player can not choose to transfer back from.

 

6th Ed has rules for this under Multiform in the Personality Loss subsection. basically the person makes a roll (this would happen during the transformation), and if (when) he fails it he becomes "trapped" in the current form and can only recover his old form and personality with outside help (ie, whatever way you decide (if any) that a vampire can turn back in to their original self. Killing sire, blood transfusion, God's blessing, etc...).

 

All you have to do is build what a average vampire in your campaign is, then that is what the person turns into, but they keep any stats that are higher then the Average vampire, and they keep any skills, perks, talents that they already had, plus get any new powers, that the new form has.

 

That should do the trick.

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