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How do you build a vampire template in 6E?


PamelaIsley

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I always thought that if a character has his points increased because of a "radiation accident"

1) all XP he already has must go to this.

2) any XP he earns, until the increase has been paid off go toward this.

3) until he has paid these XP, he has not "mastered" his new abilities.

 

I do not see why this would not apply to becoming a vampire

That solution solves the issue of point balancing by adjusting it gradually.

Good call.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Old school radiation accident was 50 points that just disappeared so that a player could rewrite his character.

 

Err...not sure what you mean by "just disappeared" here. The first time I ever saw the phrase was in either Champions II or Champions III, where it suggested saving up, say, 50 points, and then spending them all at once and at the same time rewriting the character with possily all-new Disadvantages and Powers. The points don't disappear, they carry over to the re-written character.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Accident

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

No - you're wrong. completely, 100% incorrect. This statement is as false as they come.

 

What can't happen is a generic "this will work in all games" construct of how to create a vampire - or werewolf, or mummy, or mutant, or any other thing from any source material where one thing is turned into another thing.

 

You must - absolutely positively no if/ands/buts about it - MUST construct the rules of the Game Being Played first; mechanical-changey-thing second.

 

Strange response. "You're wrong, Hero can do a vampire transformation. What Hero can't do is a generic vampire transformation."

 

I'm not wrong. Hero can't handle this simple mechanic without hand-waving. Transform and summon both are improperly constructed to deal with a vampire transformation, unless you substantially change what most people would consider such a transformation.

 

If you decide that a person turned into a vampire is a completely new being, with none of their old traits, then summon can work. This is not a common vampire conception.

 

If you decide that all of the mishmash of weaknesses that have ever been mentioned are applicable (whether in combination or not) AND a vampire condition is curable, then transform will work. At least the latter is certainly not a common (or even niche) conception of a vampire transformation.

 

Hero IS the rule set. I shouldn't have to construct exceptions to Hero's rules in order to use Hero's rule set. If I thought it was worth it, I might bring myself to research how the bizarre transform and summon generic conditions even came about, but I've given up on Hero doing what I want it to do in this case. There simply is little else to say.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

This is just hand waving. You could do that with every concept.

 

Well, IMHO there's a difference between "hand-waving" and "rules adjustment." ;) The 6E HERO rulebooks are rife with specified exceptions to the default rules "with GM's permission." In fact some of the default rules themselves come with warnings that they can be unbalancing under certain circumstances, so the Game Master should consider whether to include them in the kind of campaign she wants to run. The books even encourage the GM to change rules in whatever way better suits the kind of game she's going for, and offers several examples. Heck, I've seen Steve Long bend his own rule defaults in a number of published character and power constructs to get the effect he was going for, and if it's good enough for the Big Kahuna it's good enough for me. :sneaky:

 

If you don't want your vampires to be changed back to human form, then Transform in this case doesn't "heal back." This is not rendering Transform unusable -- it still provides a mechanic for the effect, Character Point numbers to pay for it, target number of BODY to be exceeded, possible Defenses if desired. You're simply excluding one element that doesn't belong in the campaign you envision. "Hand-waving" it would be if there was no mechanic for building and balancing this effect, it simply happens... which, BTW, is how several notable games handle being transformed into a vampire. ;)

 

If your resulting vampire template is more costly in Character Points than you were looking for, raise the starting points of your characters, or give the vampires a "vampire bonus" to help pay for it as a ground rule of being a vampire in your campaign (particularly if vampires are supposed to be more powerful than other types of characters). Complications are supposed to make characters more interesting to play, not to be a strait jacket inhibiting play.

 

I've seen many newcomers to HERO more concerned with keeping to the letter of the rules than their spirit... and understandably so given the volume and detail of the rules. The rules as given provide a solid, versatile framework for how things work and what fair costs for them should be. But HERO is designed to be adjusted, modified, and stretched in whatever way best suits the experience a particular game group is going for. Not doing so would be putting unnecessary restrictions on the system. :)

 

Do keep in mind that there have been six editions of the HERO System since it was first created, and every one of them does many things differently from the others. All of them were "official" at one time. Many people prefer the way things were done under one edition over the others, often for very logical reasons; including some of the people who wrote those rules. If the rules-makers can't agree on everything, I feel no guilt over making my own little changes. :eg:

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

If you decide that a person turned into a vampire is a completely new being, with none of their old traits, then summon can work.

 

Summon will also work if you do NOT "decide that a person turned into a vampire is a completely new being, with none of their old traits."

 

Nothing about Summon requires you to decide that.

 

If you decide that all of the mishmash of weaknesses that have ever been mentioned are applicable (whether in combination or not) AND a vampire condition is curable, then transform will work.

 

And you don't need "all of the mishmash of weaknesses that have ever been mentioned" to make Transform work either.

 

It's just that if you want

 

Phenomenal, Cosmic, Power!!!

:king:

:earth:

 

without any corresponding drawbacks, it will cost you

 

Phenomenal, Cosmic, Points!!!

 

You don't get a free lunch just for saying "Vampire!" any more than Superman gets a free lunch just for saying "Kryptonian!"

In fact, I think a lot of people would say using Transform this way is a pretty generous deal: Piling on the Powers just for rolling a higher target number on a Power that's already Cumulative?

 

 

People have been building vampires in Hero since the early days of Champions more than 20 years ago, and as far as I know, Transform has been the usual means of doing what you're trying to do. I'm not sure I agree it's the best way, but it's worked well enough for a lot of people for a long time.

 

And I notice you haven't even addressed the proposal to do it via Ressurection, although at this point I have to say I'm sure you'll find fault with that too.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thought it was getting a free lunch, but that's because I'd already paid for it.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Yah, it would be nice to hear what PamelIsley would consider an acceptable solution or perhaps give as an example of another system that handles the vampire transformation to her liking so we can have a clear understanding of what she is looking for.

 

I haven't played WoD in a long time, but I seem to recall that changing in to a vampire in that system (and if any system should have good rules for changing into a vampire, it should be a game called Vampire) all that had to happen is that through the storyline a normal human is drained down to no blood by a vampire, then the vampire feeds 3 points of blood back into the person. The person then sleeps for a few day (maybe makes a Willpower check to see if they survive the transformation?) then the GM gives them a set number of new "freebie points" to spend on buying up stats, disciplines, etc... and the newly created vampire has all the normal flaws and benefits of a vampire for the game, plus their clan flaw, plus they are blood bonded to their sire.

 

If that is the vampire creation "base line" then the equivalent would be that the vampire would have to Drain the victims BODY down to 0, then Heal the victim 3 BODY (at the cost of 3 BODY to himself) then the victim would make a CON or EGO roll to see if they survived the process. After that the GM would give the new vampire a set number of XP points to spend on stats, plus give the player a choice of one of three free standard abilities that the GM has already pre-made, then give the player his new standard vampire abilities that all vamps get (again for free) and then give him the Complications a standard vampire in the setting would have, plus one special pre-made Complication that fits the new Vampires "clan".

 

Now an easier way of doing that would be that after the victim makes his/her CON or EGO roll to survive the transformation(lets not use that word, it seems to have a bad rep around here) "change into a vampire" then all you need to do is add the Vampire Package Deal to the character and voila, done.

 

No system that I know of has a simple single power for turning a normal person into a Vampire. That is because A) it changes the person into a super being so of course points won't match up in that case. If they did, then the new vampire would have so many flaws that they would be unplayable. So the GM has to give free points to the character to make it work. B) Something so storyline changing is never left up to chance in any role-playing game. Either the GM wants the player turned into a vampire or he doesn't. If he does then he is fine with giving out the free points, if he's not, then the situation would never happen. He/she might leave it up to a skill roll to see if it happens, but that's a pretty poor GM in my opinion. As for NPC's, well that is why there is the CON/EGO roll to see if they survive the transformation or not. If they do, then bamm new powerful NPC vampire, if they don't, then dead NPC.

 

I would really like to see or hear about any system out there that does it differently because as far as I know, and I've played a lot of different systems, none of them handle it without some GM hand waving and a lot of bonus points for the character.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I think I might be slightly confused. You dismiss anything that involves "hand-waving" yet what you are looking for seems to be a book legal way to make a single character permanently more powerful than everyone else who started at the same amount of points. Even if you come up with a satisfactory and book legal way to do this, considering that it empowers characters in a way that potentially unbalances the game, it still falls strictly into the “only with GM permission”, does it not?

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Reverse engineer the Vampire template and design it to be zero-sum. If being a vampire means that you are Bloodbound to your sire until you find the will to resist or rebel, then you have a Psych Com (Common, Total) that provides 15 points toward buying vampire abilities and is imposed on the character until they buy off the Complication with XP. If vampires are allergic to religious paraphernalia or sunlight, more points for bennies. Phys Com: Can only feed on fresh blood, more points. Distinctive Features: Hot Topic poster child, more points. Lather, rinse, repeat until you have a guilt free, net bupkus package you can slap on anybody. Or strip away.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

The problem you (the OP) are running into is fundamental to the system. We track points as kind of a rating of effectiveness for PCs and NPCs. With that we can try and maintain balance between PCs and to have a quick and dirty way to compare characters. You are trying to add effectiveness (stronger, faster, tougher) to a target character permanently by spending points on an attacking character. The normal way that effectiveness is gained permanently is accomplished is to make the character getting more effective pay the points for those powers and skills. There is no RAW (Rules As Written) to accomplish what you want to do because it's against the basis of the system.

 

To do it you need to get a little meta about the system and figure out what you want. You want a vampire version of someone to be more powerful than the non-vamp version of that person. You want vampires to be able to turn others into vampires and you want vampires to pay a fair amount for that ability. You want PCs that are transformed to remain playable.

 

People have suggested summon or transform with a bit of modification. From my point of view those are perfectly fine ways to go if the target isn't playable afterwards. If you let the new vamp remain playable you have a point imbalance to deal with. Some groups are just fine with that kind of imbalance, but it takes very mature players who understand the system well and can play to concept. A lot of groups have problems due to point envy.

 

I can suggest another possibility. First, make them more powerful by making the character being changed pay the cost of al the new abilities. It's the fair by the book way. If it's a PC they spend XP or if they don't have it, they borrow XP and buy the abilities. This kind of character rewrite was often called a radiation accident in older rulesets. If the target is an NPC they they pay the points for it but NPCs are easier, the GM assigns NPC points as appropriate. So the GM can add the points or make them disappear to "earn them"

 

Second to make the attacking character pay for the ability you're going to have to estimate a price. Find a way to come up with what you think a fair price is. You can start with the cost of having bought this a Transform or a Summon. Alternatively you can treat it as a perk. Compare the utility to the various perks that exist, it's kind of like Access, and it's kind of like Fringe Benefit. Is this more or less useful than Diplomatic Immunity, License to Kill, something like that? Then call it a new perk: Vampire Transform 10 pts

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Yah' date=' it would be nice to hear what Pamela Isley would consider an acceptable solution or perhaps give as an example of another system that handles the vampire transformation to her liking so we can have a clear understanding of what she is looking for.[/quote']

Ditto this.

 

However, so far it has been stated that Pamela want to build a Twilight-type vampire (presumably based more on the books than the movies), which have various standard abilities (stronger, faster, tough, enhanced senses) and little in the way of the traditional weaknesses of vampires.

The Twilight vampire concept point-balances poorly, of course - lots of abilities and few corresponding weaknesses, which could be called a free lunch.

 

The concept itself is very possible to build in the Hero System as a template, but the ability to make another vampire can be done several ways in the system, none of which seems to be satisfactory to what Pamela wants. I think that representing this ability in the template is the snag Pamela is unhappy with.

I'm not going to argue or anything, just a theory which could well be wrong. :)

 

I haven't played WoD in a long time' date=' but I seem to recall that changing in to a vampire in that system (and if any system should have good rules for changing into a vampire, it should be a game called Vampire) all that had to happen is that through the storyline a normal human is drained down to no blood by a vampire, then the vampire feeds 3 points of blood back into the person. The person then sleeps for a few day (maybe makes a Willpower check to see if they survive the transformation?) then the GM gives them a set number of new "freebie points" to spend on buying up stats, disciplines, etc... and the newly created vampire has all the normal flaws and benefits of a vampire for the game, plus their clan flaw, plus they are blood bonded to their sire.[/quote']

 

If that is the vampire creation "base line" then the equivalent would be that the vampire would have to Drain the victims BODY down to 0' date=' then Heal the victim 3 BODY (at the cost of 3 BODY to himself) then the victim would make a CON or EGO roll to see if they survived the process. After that the GM would give the new vampire a set number of XP points to spend on stats, plus give the player a choice of one of three free standard abilities that the GM has already pre-made, then give the player his new standard vampire abilities that all vamps get (again for free) and then give him the Complications a standard vampire in the setting would have, plus one special pre-made Complication that fits the new Vampires "clan".[/quote']

There are a few other Complications which are specific to the WoD (I assume you mean the "classic" WoD - I have no clue as to the newer ones). Interestingly enough, these are more distinctly defined in GURPS The Masquerade than in the original rules. In any case, these help balance the issue, along with the single most important thing in the WoD "balance of terror": becoming a vampire costs your character all other supernatural abilities he had, or in the case of some beings, just kills him permanently instead.

In other words, you can't have your old cake and your new one, too.

 

Now an easier way of doing that would be that after the victim makes his/her CON or EGO roll to survive the transformation(lets not use that word' date=' it seems to have a bad rep around here) "change into a vampire" then all you need to do is add the Vampire Package Deal to the character and voila, done.[/quote']

In the WoD, this is not exactly true - applying the template also requires you to remove some abilities you already had.

In other settings, this may or may not be true.

In the Twilight vampire example, Pamela Isley said that becoming such a vampire instead seems to improve abilities you already possess, which could be represented by adding a pool of distributable points to the template, assigning the points to improve the character's original assets.

 

No system that I know of has a simple single power for turning a normal person into a Vampire. That is because A) it changes the person into a super being so of course points won't match up in that case. If they did' date=' then the new vampire would have so many flaws that they would be unplayable. So the GM has to give free points to the character to make it work. B) Something so storyline changing is never left up to chance in any role-playing game. Either the GM wants the player turned into a vampire or he doesn't. If he does then he is fine with giving out the free points, if he's not, then the situation would never happen. He/she might leave it up to a skill roll to see if it happens, but that's a pretty poor GM in my opinion. As for NPC's, well that is why there is the CON/EGO roll to see if they survive the transformation or not. If they do, then bamm new powerful NPC vampire, if they don't, then dead NPC.[/quote']

In campaigns with all-vampire PCs this would probably not be a problem, neither would a mixed WoD campaign where the PCs all play extremely powerful beings, even if they start out weaker (normals not yet become vampires, turning werewolf for the first time, learning magick, etc.).

 

I would really like to see or hear about any system out there that does it differently because as far as I know' date=' and I've played a lot of different systems, none of them handle it without some GM hand waving and a lot of bonus points for the character.[/quote']

It can be done in a campaign, of course. I've experimented with mixed genres within the same campaign world, including turning some superheroes into vampires, but this was all with GM-player cooperation and the understanding it might not work out. As it turned out though, introducing WoD-style vampires into a superhero setting didn't result in imbalance, because everyone agreed being a superhero was a much easier life than having an unlife as a vampire.

 

Depending on the scenarios you run, point imbalance may not matter much. A mystery scenario has everyone on equal footing regardless if they are vampires or sickly elderly gentlemen, the only important power being information. Assuming everyone has a function to fulfill, insisting on point balance may actually be detrimental to a campaign; or many values given may need to be adjusted; or everything works perfectly right from the start.

 

Everyone who has played RPGs before should be familiar with how seldom everything works perfectly right out of the box, and everyone will have at least slightly different interpretations.

The Hero System solves this be acknowledging these things, and instead attempts to accomodate the GM in adjusting details to fit the campaign.

 

As for game systems, I know quite a few systems too, and I have yet to see a good system for balancing points being able to handle an unbalanced concept well. Being unable to do this is indicative of a well working system, in my mind - what any character design system really does is compare effectiveness.

 

The only real balancing factor in any RPG is, after all, the GM.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Actually, it' s not quite true that there is no way for one character to "add points" to another.

We've discussed several of them, including the use of Transform.

 

One thing we haven't talked much about yet is the Usable By Others Advantage, and since this thread has gotten me intrigued with the idea of vampire creation, I'm playing around with that idea now. I'll probably have something to propose later. I will say that it looks as if it will work!

 

Reverse engineer ....
{snip}

 

We've been over this ground, and I'm in agreement with Ms. Isley about why that bat won't fly.

 

We're talking about a situation where Character Bob Notavampire is simply and

unavoidably worth fewer points than Character Bob Nowavampire.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary observes that there's more than one way to skin a bat.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Here's a thought: One of the guiding principles of HERO System is "you get what you pay for," i.e. things that are more or less useful should cost more or less points. The game also explicitly makes allowances for adding new Powers, Advantages etc. if we believe the existing ones don't adequately model what we're trying to achieve.

 

So, if someone wants to permanently, irreversibly transform someone into, say, a vampire; and said person doesn't want to violate the default proscription against this in the description of Transform; how about a Custom Advantage for Transform, Permanent (Does Not Heal Back)? Based on examples of some of the more extreme Advantages and Limitations in the game, I'd say something between +1 and +2 would be a fair price for this added utility, depending on how strictly you define Permanent. At the lower end of the range, perhaps it might still be possible to reverse the Transformation through extraordinary measures, but those measures would not be readily apparent or easily available (rather like destroying an Unbreakable Focus).

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Here is something I worked up in Hero Designer for 21 points.

 

Create Vampire (Differing Modifiers): Inheritance (Dispel and Adjustment Powers function as if the Power belonged to the Recipient; +1/4), Lasts Through Unconsciousness (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Up to 8 Recipients (+3/4), Usable As Attack (+1 1/4) (425 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Limited Power Set Effect: Must grant all basic Vampire powers, plus Complications, as a group; only on someone who has been blood drained to 1 BOD or less. (-1/2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (- 3 BOD; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) for up to 100 Points of Vampire Powers

 

Assumes vampire package totalling 100 pts

 

Normally, Dispelling the Recipient of a Power Usable On Others deprives the Recipient of the Power until the Grantor grants it again; "Inheritance" (a deliberate play on "Inherent" which costs the same and would make it not Dispellabel at all) is a custom Advantage to make Dispel work as if the Power belonged to the Recipient, i.e. they can activate it again themselves. Or you could just use Inherent, and they can't be Dispelled at all.

 

"Lasts through Unconsciousness" is the Advantage listed in the book (Six Ed) that maintains the power if the Recipient is Stunned, knocked out, or just lies down for a nap.

 

The assumption seems to be that Usable as Attaack powers can only effect one at a time; at least, Hero Designer doesn't have it as a menu option to effect more, but the book doesn't seem to forbid it.

I figured 8 is enough. I seem to remember hearing that somewhere.

 

Possible defences include not having blood, already undead, etc.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Usable as Attack

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Here's a thought: One of the guiding principles of HERO System is "you get what you pay for," i.e. things that are more or less useful should cost more or less points. The game also explicitly makes allowances for adding new Powers, Advantages etc. if we believe the existing ones don't adequately model what we're trying to achieve.

 

So, if someone wants to permanently, irreversibly transform someone into, say, a vampire; and said person doesn't want to violate the default proscription against this in the description of Transform; how about a Custom Advantage for Transform, Permanent (Does Not Heal Back)? Based on examples of some of the more extreme Advantages and Limitations in the game, I'd say something between +1 and +2 would be a fair price for this added utility, depending on how strictly you define Permanent. At the lower end of the range, perhaps it might still be possible to reverse the Transformation through extraordinary measures, but those measures would not be readily apparent or easily available (rather like destroying an Unbreakable Focus).

 

Because according to Pamela, as far as I can gather, if it's not explicitly written down in the book word for word it does not count as a rule that can be used and is therefore some form of "handwave" or something.

 

Which is counter intuitive to the very basis of the Hero System in the first place. . . .

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

We've been over this ground, and I'm in agreement with Ms. Isley about why that bat won't fly.

 

We're talking about a situation where Character Bob Notavampire is simply and

unavoidably worth fewer points than Character Bob Nowavampire.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary observes that there's more than one way to skin a bat.

 

Okey dokey, but I'm not all that worked up about a 50 pt Normal with 0 Complications suddenly becoming a 150 pt Vampire with 100 pts of Complications, until they buy them down some with XP. As long as the GM works the Complications, there should be no net difference or even player preference.

 

The drawbacks to being a vampire have to be worse than the advantages or the nasty buggers will go viral. You have to build in some sort of control in your game or you end up with a bunch of accidental or slipshod bloodsuckers. Commonality destroys the mystique. So the transformation either has to be chancy, draining, difficult or costly. Perhaps there's a social restriction on making more or an obligation to be responsible for your children. Perhaps birthing a vampire is as taxing as birthing a child? Perhaps a freshly created vampire notifies everyone with ears to listen that easy prey can be found here?

 

What I'm suggesting is that perhaps the parent vampire shoulders some of the negative points through added Complications to pay for the spawn's gain in abilities, and they can tackle the deficit from both sides through earning XP?

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Being unable to disobay your sires commands would dissuade most independent thinking players

 

This is not a common vampire drawback (I'm only familiar with it in DnD rules). Even Dracula's vampire brides in the original novel had a rebellious spirit (the blonde stands up to Dracula over Harker at one point). This also isn't really part of Anne Rice or Twilight conceptions.

 

And yes, ghost-angel was right, my goal was to build the vampire template using the rules. As I've said a few times, I've given up.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I think what you haven't gotten yet is that it is both time honored, and well within the spirit of the rules to Make Stuff Up.

 

If, for instance, the "Heal Back Condition" is giving you fits you need to get rid of it. Either just doing so, or creating a custom Advantage as was suggested at least once, is Part Of The Rules.

 

With a rule system built around Base + Modifiers to achieve affects there is no possible way the writers could ever conceive of every possible way to modify anything, and the players are left to their own creative devices. That IS the rules. Plain and simple.

 

Which makes "+0 Advantage - No In Fact You Don't Heal" just as RAW as anything else.

(or a more likely need where Transform needs to also behave with Healing; "+1 Advantage - No Healing Condition")

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

And yes, ghost-angel was right, my goal was to build the vampire template using the rules. As I've said a few times, I've given up.

 

At least partly based on misunderstanding the rules.

 

For example, your reason for rejecting Summon is not based on anything in the rules.

 

And I don't think you've addressed at all the proposals to use Resurrection or Differing Modifiers.

 

But feel free to "give up" - no one can force you not to.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary sees another way to approach the effect but I don't know if it's worth pursuing...

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Okey dokey, but I'm not all that worked up about a 50 pt Normal with 0 Complications suddenly becoming a 150 pt Vampire with 100 pts of Complications, until they buy them down some with XP. As long as the GM works the Complications, there should be no net difference or even player preference.

 

 

Pretty much how I see it. I use transform and preserve the character's "value" if you will as you describe above.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

For example, your reason for rejecting Summon is not based on anything in the rules.

 

 

When you design a summoning power, you must specify the total point value of the thing being summoned. Besides the conceptual nightmare (that something new is being created rather than something being transformed into something different), this means that a vampire transform must either be so powerful as to represent any possible point value + the cost of the vampire template, or that the new vampire is going to lose some of its old abilities.

 

Hence my point that summoning can only effectively represent a vampire transformation where you imagine that the result of the transformation does not contain all of the character sheet of the original target. A vampire template is added to existing abilities, that's why summoning's cap (based on the points spent on the power) does not mesh very well with what I consider a vampire transformation. I feel like this point has been made a bunch of times over the course of this thread.

 

I think others on page 7 went into resurrection. I don't even grasp how that remotely works, so I don't have a rebuttal.

 

Transform is clearly the power that is supposed to model this (at least my conception of a vampire transformation), but that bizarre heal back requirement means you have to change the rules to make it work. I'm not as fond of that as others.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I think others on page 7 went into resurrection. I don't even grasp how that remotely works' date=' so I don't have a rebuttal.[/quote']

 

That's easy - when you come back from the dead you just change how points were spent.

 

If you're at a deficit (and this works for any system used to make up for any accounting where you need to work with a Character Point Total) you either 1) apply Complications to "pay" for the deficiency (not the method I would actually recommend) or 2) simply "lock up" all future XP expenditures until the deficit is paid off.

 

Now, this point redistribution may in fact strip a character of some abilities, freeing up points to spend on Vampiric Abilities, or it may come about from a long planned saving of XP and the GM performing some in game event that causes what is commonly known in Comic Book Circles as "the radiation accident" where the Character is nearly completely rewritten.

 

And one more time: creating an Advantage to remove the Heal Back Condition is not "changing the rules" is it fact "Using The Rules."

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Transform is clearly the power that is supposed to model this (at least my conception of a vampire transformation)' date=' but that bizarre heal back requirement means you have to change the rules to make it work. I'm not as fond of that as others.[/quote']

 

 

And one more time: creating an Advantage to remove the Heal Back Condition is not "changing the rules" is it fact "Using The Rules."

 

This is the crux of the dichotomy on this thread. Two conceptions of what is meant by "the rules" which don't appear to be reconcilable. If the horse isn't alive by this point, I seriously doubt beating it any further will animate it. :dh:

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