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PamelaIsley

How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Here's a thought: One of the guiding principles of HERO System is "you get what you pay for," i.e. things that are more or less useful should cost more or less points. The game also explicitly makes allowances for adding new Powers, Advantages etc. if we believe the existing ones don't adequately model what we're trying to achieve.

 

So, if someone wants to permanently, irreversibly transform someone into, say, a vampire; and said person doesn't want to violate the default proscription against this in the description of Transform; how about a Custom Advantage for Transform, Permanent (Does Not Heal Back)? Based on examples of some of the more extreme Advantages and Limitations in the game, I'd say something between +1 and +2 would be a fair price for this added utility, depending on how strictly you define Permanent. At the lower end of the range, perhaps it might still be possible to reverse the Transformation through extraordinary measures, but those measures would not be readily apparent or easily available (rather like destroying an Unbreakable Focus).

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Here is something I worked up in Hero Designer for 21 points.

 

Create Vampire (Differing Modifiers): Inheritance (Dispel and Adjustment Powers function as if the Power belonged to the Recipient; +1/4), Lasts Through Unconsciousness (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Up to 8 Recipients (+3/4), Usable As Attack (+1 1/4) (425 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Limited Power Set Effect: Must grant all basic Vampire powers, plus Complications, as a group; only on someone who has been blood drained to 1 BOD or less. (-1/2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (- 3 BOD; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) for up to 100 Points of Vampire Powers

 

Assumes vampire package totalling 100 pts

 

Normally, Dispelling the Recipient of a Power Usable On Others deprives the Recipient of the Power until the Grantor grants it again; "Inheritance" (a deliberate play on "Inherent" which costs the same and would make it not Dispellabel at all) is a custom Advantage to make Dispel work as if the Power belonged to the Recipient, i.e. they can activate it again themselves. Or you could just use Inherent, and they can't be Dispelled at all.

 

"Lasts through Unconsciousness" is the Advantage listed in the book (Six Ed) that maintains the power if the Recipient is Stunned, knocked out, or just lies down for a nap.

 

The assumption seems to be that Usable as Attaack powers can only effect one at a time; at least, Hero Designer doesn't have it as a menu option to effect more, but the book doesn't seem to forbid it.

I figured 8 is enough. I seem to remember hearing that somewhere.

 

Possible defences include not having blood, already undead, etc.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Usable as Attack

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Here's a thought: One of the guiding principles of HERO System is "you get what you pay for," i.e. things that are more or less useful should cost more or less points. The game also explicitly makes allowances for adding new Powers, Advantages etc. if we believe the existing ones don't adequately model what we're trying to achieve.

 

So, if someone wants to permanently, irreversibly transform someone into, say, a vampire; and said person doesn't want to violate the default proscription against this in the description of Transform; how about a Custom Advantage for Transform, Permanent (Does Not Heal Back)? Based on examples of some of the more extreme Advantages and Limitations in the game, I'd say something between +1 and +2 would be a fair price for this added utility, depending on how strictly you define Permanent. At the lower end of the range, perhaps it might still be possible to reverse the Transformation through extraordinary measures, but those measures would not be readily apparent or easily available (rather like destroying an Unbreakable Focus).

 

Because according to Pamela, as far as I can gather, if it's not explicitly written down in the book word for word it does not count as a rule that can be used and is therefore some form of "handwave" or something.

 

Which is counter intuitive to the very basis of the Hero System in the first place. . . .

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

We've been over this ground, and I'm in agreement with Ms. Isley about why that bat won't fly.

 

We're talking about a situation where Character Bob Notavampire is simply and

unavoidably worth fewer points than Character Bob Nowavampire.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary observes that there's more than one way to skin a bat.

 

Okey dokey, but I'm not all that worked up about a 50 pt Normal with 0 Complications suddenly becoming a 150 pt Vampire with 100 pts of Complications, until they buy them down some with XP. As long as the GM works the Complications, there should be no net difference or even player preference.

 

The drawbacks to being a vampire have to be worse than the advantages or the nasty buggers will go viral. You have to build in some sort of control in your game or you end up with a bunch of accidental or slipshod bloodsuckers. Commonality destroys the mystique. So the transformation either has to be chancy, draining, difficult or costly. Perhaps there's a social restriction on making more or an obligation to be responsible for your children. Perhaps birthing a vampire is as taxing as birthing a child? Perhaps a freshly created vampire notifies everyone with ears to listen that easy prey can be found here?

 

What I'm suggesting is that perhaps the parent vampire shoulders some of the negative points through added Complications to pay for the spawn's gain in abilities, and they can tackle the deficit from both sides through earning XP?

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Being unable to disobay your sires commands would dissuade most independent thinking players

 

This is not a common vampire drawback (I'm only familiar with it in DnD rules). Even Dracula's vampire brides in the original novel had a rebellious spirit (the blonde stands up to Dracula over Harker at one point). This also isn't really part of Anne Rice or Twilight conceptions.

 

And yes, ghost-angel was right, my goal was to build the vampire template using the rules. As I've said a few times, I've given up.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I think what you haven't gotten yet is that it is both time honored, and well within the spirit of the rules to Make Stuff Up.

 

If, for instance, the "Heal Back Condition" is giving you fits you need to get rid of it. Either just doing so, or creating a custom Advantage as was suggested at least once, is Part Of The Rules.

 

With a rule system built around Base + Modifiers to achieve affects there is no possible way the writers could ever conceive of every possible way to modify anything, and the players are left to their own creative devices. That IS the rules. Plain and simple.

 

Which makes "+0 Advantage - No In Fact You Don't Heal" just as RAW as anything else.

(or a more likely need where Transform needs to also behave with Healing; "+1 Advantage - No Healing Condition")

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

And yes, ghost-angel was right, my goal was to build the vampire template using the rules. As I've said a few times, I've given up.

 

At least partly based on misunderstanding the rules.

 

For example, your reason for rejecting Summon is not based on anything in the rules.

 

And I don't think you've addressed at all the proposals to use Resurrection or Differing Modifiers.

 

But feel free to "give up" - no one can force you not to.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary sees another way to approach the effect but I don't know if it's worth pursuing...

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Okey dokey, but I'm not all that worked up about a 50 pt Normal with 0 Complications suddenly becoming a 150 pt Vampire with 100 pts of Complications, until they buy them down some with XP. As long as the GM works the Complications, there should be no net difference or even player preference.

 

 

Pretty much how I see it. I use transform and preserve the character's "value" if you will as you describe above.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

For example, your reason for rejecting Summon is not based on anything in the rules.

 

 

When you design a summoning power, you must specify the total point value of the thing being summoned. Besides the conceptual nightmare (that something new is being created rather than something being transformed into something different), this means that a vampire transform must either be so powerful as to represent any possible point value + the cost of the vampire template, or that the new vampire is going to lose some of its old abilities.

 

Hence my point that summoning can only effectively represent a vampire transformation where you imagine that the result of the transformation does not contain all of the character sheet of the original target. A vampire template is added to existing abilities, that's why summoning's cap (based on the points spent on the power) does not mesh very well with what I consider a vampire transformation. I feel like this point has been made a bunch of times over the course of this thread.

 

I think others on page 7 went into resurrection. I don't even grasp how that remotely works, so I don't have a rebuttal.

 

Transform is clearly the power that is supposed to model this (at least my conception of a vampire transformation), but that bizarre heal back requirement means you have to change the rules to make it work. I'm not as fond of that as others.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I think others on page 7 went into resurrection. I don't even grasp how that remotely works' date=' so I don't have a rebuttal.[/quote']

 

That's easy - when you come back from the dead you just change how points were spent.

 

If you're at a deficit (and this works for any system used to make up for any accounting where you need to work with a Character Point Total) you either 1) apply Complications to "pay" for the deficiency (not the method I would actually recommend) or 2) simply "lock up" all future XP expenditures until the deficit is paid off.

 

Now, this point redistribution may in fact strip a character of some abilities, freeing up points to spend on Vampiric Abilities, or it may come about from a long planned saving of XP and the GM performing some in game event that causes what is commonly known in Comic Book Circles as "the radiation accident" where the Character is nearly completely rewritten.

 

And one more time: creating an Advantage to remove the Heal Back Condition is not "changing the rules" is it fact "Using The Rules."

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Transform is clearly the power that is supposed to model this (at least my conception of a vampire transformation)' date=' but that bizarre heal back requirement means you have to change the rules to make it work. I'm not as fond of that as others.[/quote']

 

 

And one more time: creating an Advantage to remove the Heal Back Condition is not "changing the rules" is it fact "Using The Rules."

 

This is the crux of the dichotomy on this thread. Two conceptions of what is meant by "the rules" which don't appear to be reconcilable. If the horse isn't alive by this point, I seriously doubt beating it any further will animate it. :dh:

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

This is the crux of the dichotomy on this thread. Two conceptions of what is meant by "the rules" which don't appear to be reconcilable. If the horse isn't alive by this point' date=' I seriously doubt beating it any further will animate it. :dh:[/quote']...but you can regenerate it into a vampiric horse...

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I think this is what we've been getting at. the rules as written says you can't Tranform a dead being into a living being. So we transform it into a dead vampire being (dead vampire beings don't heal back BECAUSE THEY ARE DEAD) THEN you use resurrection to turn it into a living (or technically undead) vampire being.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

This is the crux of the dichotomy on this thread. Two conceptions of what is meant by "the rules" which don't appear to be reconcilable. If the horse isn't alive by this point' date=' I seriously doubt beating it any further will animate it. :dh:[/quote']

 

Meh.

 

I reference: Hero System Sixth Edtion, Combat And Adventuring Chapter Ten "Changing The System" pp 296-305. For added bang, "Adapting The Rules To Your Game" p 298

Defense rests.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I think this is what we've been getting at. the rules as written says you can't Tranform a dead being into a living being. So we transform it into a dead vampire being (dead vampire beings don't heal back BECAUSE THEY ARE DEAD) THEN you use resurrection to turn it into a living (or technically undead) vampire being.

 

That point's been made before, and I keep forgetting it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks I should make a handy chart to keep track of all the arguments

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Transform is clearly the power that is supposed to model this (at least my conception of a vampire transformation)' date=' but that bizarre heal back requirement means you have to change the rules to make it work. I'm not as fond of that as others.[/quote']

 

If that's the remaining hangup with Transform, a few reasonable heal back conditions have been suggested. My personal preference for generic vampire heal back would be:

 

Divine, Infernal or appropriately powerful supernatural intervention,

death or destruction,

successful transform to a Human (very rare power requiring appropriate concept)

(concurrent with) successful Transform to other supernatural being (No vampire-zombie or vampire-werewolf hybrids),

and incomplete transforms heal normally

Note: Vampiric immortality does not extend human life i.e. a 300year old vampire will be healed to the 200 year old corpse of a 100 year old human.

 

That is a list of rare and incovenient conditions, but arguably they add up to what they need to be: a reasonable set of healing conditions that IMHO fit the generic concept of a vampire very well.

 

[...]kill the character first then transform the corpse. Inanimate objects/dead things do not heal transform damage :) You're not supposed to give or take life with Transform but you are not - you start with a corpse and end with a vampire - which is still' date=' technically, dead, although animate.[/quote']

 

This also fits my concept of a generic vampire, but if it's not Twilightish so be it, don't use it. I'm sure there are some conditions of a modern non-religious Twilight vampire that would fit the bill that you could apply.

 

As I see it, Hero Rules try to impose balance on your game so strict adherence keeps you from creating an unbalanced situation. If you're having trouble fitting your concept to the rules, check it to see if it unbalances things and make your peace with that.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

 

I think others on page 7 went into resurrection. I don't even grasp how that remotely works, so I don't have a rebuttal.

 

Like this

 

Raise Vampire: Healing BODY 6d6 (standard effect: 18 points), Resurrection, Side Effects (Side Effect only affects the recipient of the benefits of the Power; rises as a vampire; +0) (80 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, -1 1/2), Conditional Power Must have drained blood from the victim three times on three consecutive nights. (-1), Resurrection Only (-1/2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Lose 1 BOD Drained that doesn't recover for 5 years; -1/2), Limited Power Only Heals to 50% positive BOD (-1/4) Real Cost: 17

 

Basically, Varney the Vampire kills Veronica Victim, then Resurrects her, but the Resurrecting Power has a Side Effect that means the raised person comes back as a vampire. The Side Effect isn't worth anything as a Limitation because from the vampire's point of view (and he's paying for it) it's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

Transform is clearly the power that is supposed to model this (at least my conception of a vampire transformation), but that bizarre heal back requirement means you have to change the rules to make it work. I'm not as fond of that as others.

 

And I'm coming around to thinking maybe you were right the first time. All you really have to do to make it work is define the heal back as "normal healing" (which means if you can keep Veronica Victim away from Varney the Vampire after he's started by before the change is complete, for a long enough time, she recovers and Varney needs to start over) but ensure that a vampire's healing isn't "normal," that is, put a Limitation (perhaps -0) on REC and Healing and whatever else the vampire has that is used for healing, that says it can't undo the Transformation. Or even do what I've already seen for Mental Transforms, where the only "healback" is defined as ANOTHER Transformation.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks vampires are a pain in the necks.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Human to vampire: Severe Transform 1d6, Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Limited Power (Doesn't keep on adding new powers but total does accumulate for healing purposes) (37 Active Points)

 

BODY+100 points (say) go to transforming the character into a vampire with additional abilities, the rest, well...thing is, whilst it CAN be healed back, it keeps on accumulating, so it is likely to take a VERY long time to 'untransform'.

 

Think about it: you get bitten, over the course of a day and a night (24 hours) the 'transform total' (assuming even a SPD 2) would be 50400, which, even if you applied whatever it takes to 'break' the uncontrolled would still take 420 years to heal back if you have a REC of 10. Maybe that is why new vamps spend time in the coffin :)

 

You could also adapt this to allow very old vamps to gain new powers. Effectively what you have here is an infection that keeps on going. Bear in mind that, even if the curse is 'broken' it is going to take a VERY long time for you to stop being a vampire and that is assuming you do not get re-infected before you become human again.

 

There you go, that works.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

OK, technically that doesn't work because you don;t have to heal the 'damage rolled' just the damage that transformed you...so we change it slightly to make the transform ongoing...

 

Severe Transform 1d6 (Victim to vampire, Healing Body), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Partial Transform (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (45 Active Points)

 

As it is a partial transform you should have to heal back everything rolled. That's a silly rule anyway, given that you can chose how you untransform. Still...this does allow you to build vampires that are constantly getting more powerful as they get older more easily.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I suppose you could have a normal transform with the 'heal back' condition being a stake through the heart. Then you'd stop being a vamp and become a human - with a stake through your heart :)

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

I suppose you could have a normal transform with the 'heal back' condition being a stake through the heart. Then you'd stop being a vamp and become a human - with a stake through your heart :)

 

Apparently that (or the similar Death = Heal Back) clause failed some test. What test, I dunno, but it failed.

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

Apparently that (or the similar Death = Heal Back) clause failed some test. What test' date=' I dunno, but it failed.[/quote']

 

Transform isn't supposed to be fatal, and I suppose that kinda makes it fatal :)

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Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

 

To add to the thought mix...

OK, so you can't transform something dead into something living.... But most Vampire builds include Regeneration with the Resurrection Adder. So Transform the Dead Human into a Dead Vampire and let it's own Regen bring the new Vamp back

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