Dummies Guide to Rule of X for 6th Ed

[Egyptoid]

Can someone plot out a more concise explanation for the layman.

what's a good rule of X for 400+ point characters in superheroic.

for 6th edition. I used to have a handle on it for 5th, but seem to have lost that.

 

please: don't just post "See page 3614 of the book"

or simply post some "ΔCV +ΩCV x ΣTR ± ¥ ÷ΣPD" formula

and don't just pat answer say "just like fifth edition"

none of those are really helping.

 

IOTW:if your answer is a one-liner, then please parse that one line,

show examples and justify your work.

 

I don't want my 6E bricks to be paper tigers, nor my 6E gadgeteers to be off kilter, etc

I'm asking how Rule of X works now for superheroic 6E.

 

Thanks in Advance

[Gnaskar]

Re: Dummies Guide to Rule of X for 6th Ed

 

Offense: DCs of main attack * 3.5 * OCV/3

The principle behind this is simple. The more STUN the attack does, and the more accurate it is, the more powerful it is. The 20d6 smash of the OCV 3 brute is equally powerful as the 5d6 pistol used by the OCV 12 sniper. Neither are particularly fun concepts, and most players will find themselves between these two extremes.

 

Defense: (Average amount of common defenses (PD & ED) + one forth the average of other defenses) * DCV/3

Basically the same principle here. The more he can protect himself and the better he is at dodging the more powerful his defenses are. The DCV 3 brute with lots of defenses can swallow as many shots as the DCV 18 speedster.

 

Durability: STUN total divided by campaign average damage - campaign average damage divided by CON or total END divided by END of basic attack, which ever is lower.

 

campaign average damage: The amount of STUN an averagely strong attack doing average damage would do to an averagely defended opponent.

Example: the most common attack in the campaign is a 10d6 Blast, and the defenses average about 20. The average attack does 35-20= 15 STUN after defenses, so the Campaign average damage is 15.

 

The Idea behind the Durability factor is that the longer the player can stay in the fight the more powerful he is. How long he can stay in the fight is determined by his END and his STUN, which ever gives out first.

 

X = (Offense + Defense) * Durability * Speed

It's kind of unwieldy and complex, so I make a spreadsheet and hand it out to the players.

 

So, Examples:

 

Speeder dude:

Main attack DCs: 12

Main attack END: 6

OCV: 15

Average defenses: 15

Average Exotic defenses: 4

DCV: 15

STUN total: 45

END total: 36

SPD: 9

CON: 15

 

Offense = 210

Defense = 80

Durability = 2 or 6 (so two)

X = 5220

 

Brick guy:

Main attack DCs: 18

Main attack END: 9

OCV: 8

Average defenses: 30

Average Exotic defenses: 15

DCV: 6

STUN total: 75

END total: 50

SPD: 5

CON: 35

 

Offense = 168

Defense = 67.5

Durability = 4.57 or 5.55 (so 4.57)

X =5382

 

Feel free to divide by a thousand to get more manageable numbers.

[the fox]

Re: Dummies Guide to Rule of X for 6th Ed

 

Rule of X Defense:

So that Bricks pay for there high defenses by deficiencies in three areas; Speed, (defensive) CV and other DCV bonuses.

Balanced characters pay for their speed and their ability to dodge attacks with points of defense.

 

DC in Actual Points (75) minus SPD times 3, CV times 2 and non-melee DCV CSL's times 1 equals Average Defense (AD, PD + ED/2).

-1/2 AD per 5 points Damage Reduction or Regeneration.

+/- 1 AD per -/+ 1 DCV penalty/bonus due to Size Change Powers.

-2 AD at 20+ points ALL of the following powers: Missile Deflection, Invisibility, Images, Mental Illusions, Desolidification and Sense Affecting Powers.

 

Maximum AD is 1/2 of DC AP, 30 at 60 DC AP, and is the definition of brick.

I'd show my work, how I derived these values from the Hero System, especially page S22, "PLAYING THE NUMBERS" from CHAMPIONS 4th edition, but time and space forbid.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Dummies Guide to Rule of X for 6th Ed

 

We are still tweaking our Rule of X as we have not had alot of playtime yet. Here is what we have so far, and why, for our 400 pt. supers game. I hope this helps you and please feel free to ask if you have any questions about our setup.

 

Offensive X =

the number of Active Points in the character’s most powerful attack divided by 5

+ the character’s highest possible OCV with his most powerful attack (assuming he uses all Combat Skill Levels for OCV; including bonuses from commonly used Combat or Martial Maneuvers)

+ the character’s SPD

+ the Active Points divided by 5 in powers that stack with primarily offensive powers (like HA or HKA)

= 30

 

Example: Strawman has a 30 STR, a SPD of 6, an OCV of 10, 2 CSLs with HTH, and his primary attack is a 6d6 HA.

His OffX = (30/6) + 6 + 10 + 2 + (30/6) = 30

 

I think the whys here are pretty clear. Base damage, plus how often you attack, plus how often you hit equals your offensive power.

 

 

Defensive X =

the total Active Points in the character’s most powerful defense divided by 5

+ the character’s STUN divided by 10

+ the character’s highest possible DCV (assuming he uses all applicable Combat Skill Levels for DCV; including bonuses from commonly used Combat or Martial Maneuvers)

+ the character’s SPD

+ the Active Points divided by 5 in powers that stack with primarily defensive powers (like Damage Reduction or Damage Negation)

= 30

 

Example: Strawman has a 10 rPD/ 10 rED, a SPD of 6, an DCV of 10, 2 CSLs with HTH, 50 STUN, and 4 DC Physical/ 4 DC Energy Damage Negation.

His DefX = (15/5) + 6 + 10 + 2 + (50/10) + (20/5) = 30

 

As above, I think the whys behind base defenses, DCV, and other defense stacking powers are resonably obvious. But what about SPD and STUN?

- Why is SPD factored into defense? In our experience, higher speed characters can often nullify one or more attacks in a combat by blocking or dodging while maintaining a consistent damage output.

- Why STUN, it's not even recommended in 6e2 under the Rule of X? We quickly figured out that if left unregulated (especially with its reduced cost in 6e) characters can pad their STUN to unreasonable totals with relatively little cost.

- Why am I paying for skill levels in both OffX and DefX when I can only use them for one or the other? Simply put, beacuse you can put them in defense, they will likely end up there when you need them the most. In 6e if you only want more OCV, you can just buy more OCV.

[torchwolf]

Re: Dummies Guide to Rule of X for 6th Ed

 

We are still tweaking our Rule of X as we have not had alot of playtime yet. Here is what we have so far' date=' and why, for our 400 pt. supers game. I hope this helps you and please feel free to ask if you have any questions about our setup.[/quote']

This is very helpful - just planning levels of opposition when designing opponents needs a new look at new applications.

I know the combat system all works similarly in play in theory, but it would be nice to have input on how the new Multiple Attack options actually play out in a game, in particular a supers game.

 

Offensive X =

the number of Active Points in the character’s most powerful attack divided by 5

+ the character’s highest possible OCV with his most powerful attack (assuming he uses all Combat Skill Levels for OCV; including bonuses from commonly used Combat or Martial Maneuvers)

+ the character’s SPD

+ the Active Points divided by 5 in powers that stack with primarily offensive powers (like HA or HKA)

= 30

 

Example: Strawman has a 30 STR, a SPD of 6, an OCV of 10, 2 CSLs with HTH, and his primary attack is a 6d6 HA.

His OffX = (30/6) + 6 + 10 +2 + (30/6) = 30

 

I think the whys here are pretty clear. Base damage, plus how often you attack, plus how often you hit equals your offensive power.

Given that you can combine attacks in new ways now, SPD might become slightly less crucial in theory. Do you see examples of Martial Maneuvers being used more with the new 6E options? Or maybe Martial Maneuvers combined with Flash Attacks and AoE Attacks?

Also, the expanded PRE Attack rules might make PRE more powerful - is a very high PRE something you would add a few points for or would you judge such things individually?

 

Defensive X =

the total Active Points in the character’s most powerful defense divided by 5

+ the character’s STUN divided by 10

+ the character’s highest possible DCV (assuming he uses all applicable Combat Skill Levels for DCV; including bonuses from commonly used Combat or Martial Maneuvers)

+ the character’s SPD

+ the Active Points divided by 5 in powers that stack with primarily defensive powers (like Damage Reduction or Damage Negation)

= 30

 

Example: Strawman has a 10 rPD/ 10 rED, a SPD of 6, an DCV of 10, 2 CSLs with HTH, 50 STUN, and 4 DC Physical/ 4 DC Energy Damage Negation.

His DefX = (15/5) + 6 + 10 + 2 + (50/10) + (20/5) = 30

 

As above, I think the whys behind base defenses, DCV, and other defense stacking powers are resonably obvious. But what about SPD and STUN?

- Why is SPD factored into defense? In our experience, higher speed characters can often nullify one or more attacks in a combat by blocking or dodging while maintaining a consistent damage output.

- Why STUN, it's not even recommended in 6e2 under the Rule of X? We quickly figured out that if left unregulated (especially with its reduced cost in 6e) characters can pad their STUN to unreasoble totals with relatively little cost.

- Why am I paying for skills levels in both OffX and DefX when I can only use them for one or the other? Simply put, beacuse you can put them in defense, they will likely end up there when you need them the most. In 6e if you only want more OCV, you can just buy more OCV.

I really like the way you factor in the levels and the reasons why - this brings clarity to when it is better to buy up OCV, DCV, or CSLs.

One question: does this assume that CON and Defenses are at some minimum level for this calculation to work out properly? CON is also a CHAR that has dropped in price.

 

I look forward to more on this. Rep.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Dummies Guide to Rule of X for 6th Ed

 

Offensively, I think ( OCV+(Average damage/5)) x SPD works pretty well, maybe with an adder from +1 to +12 depending on how many different attacks they have, any advantageous abilities like Flash, Darkness, Invisibility, etc.

Defensively, I think (DCV +( PD+ED)/10) + (points in defense stacking abilities/10) + (Stun/5)) x SPD works pretty well, with the same adder available to cover things like invisibility and desolidification.

 

If you have 10 OCV, 10 DCV, 6 SPD, 12 DCs of damage, 50 Stun, and 25 PD and ED, then you wind up with OFF X = about 110. DEF X = about 150.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Dummies Guide to Rule of X for 6th Ed

 

This is very helpful - just planning levels of opposition when designing opponents needs a new look at new applications.

I know the combat system all works similarly in play in theory, but it would be nice to have input on how the new Multiple Attack options actually play out in a game, in particular a supers game.

Thank you for the compliments. So far we have found Multiple Attacks to be somewhat self limiting, though this may be a result of mental baggage carried over from 5e. The OCV penalties and multiple END costs tend to make my players save Multiple Attacks for rare circumnstances where they need a greater burst of damage despite the risks of going END broke or missing alot. We (fortunatley or unfortunatley depending how you loook at it) have done alot of player vs. player combats in our games. This has resulted in our GMs (including myself) tending to play our villains with a bit of a "mean streak". For example, if you Multi-Attack and don't finish the villain off, you will likely pay in spades when the villain multi-attacks you back, but being at 1/2 DCV (from your multi-attack) means more of his shots are likely to hit.

 

Given that you can combine attacks in new ways now, SPD might become slightly less crucial in theory. Do you see examples of Martial Maneuvers being used more with the new 6E options? Or maybe Martial Maneuvers combined with Flash Attacks and AoE Attacks?

Also, the expanded PRE Attack rules might make PRE more powerful - is a very high PRE something you would add a few points for or would you judge such things individually?

As above, due to Multi-Attack leaving you a bit vulnerable, in our game they tend to be used as "finishing moves" against Stunned or held (entangled or grappled) opponents, similar to a Haymaker or a massive Move Through. In other words we have not yet seen an increase in the use of Multi-attack. With greater speed comes greater opportunities to Multi-attack your foes into oblivion, so my guess is that SPD will remain as crucial in regards to OffX.

 

We usually handle PRE like any other attack in regards to OffX, meaning in our games a PRE based character may have a relatively massive PRE. Due to this, PRE Defense (PRE, only for Defense (-1)) power builds appear about as much as the "exotic defenses" do on our character sheets.

 

I really like the way you factor in the levels and the reasons why - this brings clarity to when it is better to buy up OCV, DCV, or CSLs.

One question: does this assume that CON and Defenses are at some minimum level for this calculation to work out properly? CON is also a CHAR that has dropped in price.

 

I look forward to more on this. Rep.

CON yes, Defenses no.

I make the assumption that character's should have enough CON to not be Stunned by an average attack. If when I review a character sheet I see that the character will be stunned by the average 12-13 DC attack (in our 400 pt. game), I will encourage the player to increase it otherwise they may not have too much fun.

Defenses are another story. I have seen all types of builds work to varying degrees. Some things my players have used in our games that worked pretty well:

- Low to non-existent resitant defenses with high Regeneration

- Low defenses with very high DCV

- Average to low defenses with high STUN and CON

- Low Defenses and DCV with high Damage Reduction (and now Damage Negation)

- and of course, Low DCV with high Defenses and STUN

[Opal]

Re: Dummies Guide to Rule of X for 6th Ed

 

Can someone plot out a more concise explanation for the layman.

what's a good rule of X for 400+ point characters in superheroic.

for 6th edition.

This may be a little too dumb, but Rule of X was never that good an idea. In Fuzion, it encouraged extreme characters - heavily weighted toward CV or Damage/defense, with 'balanced' characters being somewhat ineffectual. Of course, it all varied with the mind-set of the given group, but that's how it seemed to me. I find the old-fashioned Apt guidelines (not limits) or DC/defense limits ('soft' limits, that is) more conducive to a playable campaign, with plenty of GM judgement thrown in, of course.

[the fox]

Re: Dummies Guide to Rule of X for 6th Ed

 

Rather than have a rule of x offense, I simply limit some main characteristics as per page S22, "PLAYING THE NUMBERS" from CHAMPIONS 4th edition.

5th edition, and 6th I'm fairly certain, also recommend limiting DEX and SPD to certain levels at various power levels, just like max. DC and defenses for characters of that total.

So with all these limits, I don't need a rule of x offense!* Just my simple rule of x defense, which enforces the shizm of defenses between a brick, demi-brick, martial artists, it doesn't matter what you call 'em because their all penalized for speed, CV and any non-melee CSL's usable for Defensive CV, DCV!

When all characters gain another 50 total points(all characters, then can increase their DEX, SPD, DC and/or AD (Average Defense, PD + ED/2).

Also Skill Rolls (max. 18- at 250+ pts., p.S22) and CSL's, with both OCV and non-melee DCV CSL caps (2nd cap here lower for no dodging every attack; 1/2 and round-up, bud of coors).

Now characters can save their points in anticipation of 'going up a level' and this gives all characters a periodic burst/boost!

*if characters don't want combat effectiveness, that's their problem; with all these limits for every power level, I can say what their DC is, what their DEX, SPD, CSL's, and Skill Rolls are!

And now with my simple rule of x defense, I can tell you what their defenses are too! and that it's inversely related to 3 rather small numbers, each multiplied by a factor of 3, 2, or 1 (x*1=x, so you won't see the 1, but yeah, I try to make it as simple as 1, 2, 3; what amazes me is how well the numbers fit! just how wickedly well (not too hot, not too cold, baby bear finds the porridge just right) this rule of x defense penalizes those squirrely guys who are so much faster, dexterous, hard to hit by anything less than an explosion or dropping the ceiling on 'em; oh, yeah, now when they get hit, their gonna feel it, mostly stun, so you better have CON and STUN, quail masters!). So anyhow, I can now take my remaining points and spend 'em on things like Skills, 'mental' Chars., Perks, Talents and MA Maneuvers (since some of these add damage, all 'combative' characters quickly develop a style of their own and/or seek training), and then lastly determine CON, BOD, REC, END and STUN. Nothing but the Complications to add now!

[tesuji]

Re: Dummies Guide to Rule of X for 6th Ed

 

i dont use rox because it is simply nottrue that a high dice low accuracy attack is equivalently effective to a low dice accurate attack in many cases. miss miss miis ko is not the same as plink plink plink plink plink p,ink plink plink unless the system also sets upper and lower ranges for the dcs. Also, there are tons of circumstantial effects, some possible in control of the player, that make "accuracy" less of an issue.

 

for example - assume a dc+ocv of 24.

20d6 plus ocv 4 is a lot better than dc 4 ocv 20 especially if in a superheroic game not using hit locations. this gets even more true is the 20 dc guy has a mp slot with a target hex aoe entangle which can drop the dcv he is shooting at to 0.

 

I design the dirty dozen - twelve sample npc villains. usual spread is three brick, three blaster, two speedster/ma, and four exotics.

 

I give them to the players at chargen start with guidelines for "how many phases will it take you to take them each out as well as how many phasers will it take them to each take you out.

 

for example, for a quick combat game the numbers might be 2-5 with an average of 3 but for a longer game it might be 5-10 with an average of 8. Its ok for one or two to be out of the bounds, everyone has a good matchup or a bad matchup now and again.

 

IMX with rox you need a lot of extra boundaries beyond the rox itself to keep the results appropriate.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Dummies Guide to Rule of X for 6th Ed

 

IMHO, the rule of X is just a guideline to help the GM balance the characters with his villains and encounters. It should not be used as an absolute measure of equality. Even the hero system itself cannot do that, as illustrated when powers with similar point totals can widely vary in effectiveness (for example; a Blast with many stacked advantages can be much more powerful that a simple Blast of the same point cost). IMHO, the rule of X or any other rule in the hero system is not a substitute for GM common sense. In our games the only golden rule is to have fun.

[torchwolf]

Re: Dummies Guide to Rule of X for 6th Ed

 

IMHO' date=' the rule of X is just a guideline to help the GM balance the characters with his villains and encounters. It should not be used as an absolute measure of equality. Even the hero system itself cannot do that, as illustrated when powers with similar point totals can widely vary in effectiveness (for example; a Blast with many stacked advantages can be much more powerful that a simple Blast of the same point cost). IMHO, the rule of X or any other rule in the hero system is not a substitute for GM common sense. In our games the only golden rule is to have fun.[/quote']

True true.

Any rule of X that becomes very extensive is nearly counterproductive: Hero is a very open system, and narrowing the possibilities down too much may inadvertently take away much of what is the system's very strengths. While the campaign guidelines from the rules may be too wide for all tastes, trying too hard to balance everything might limit options too much.

 

An aside on the issue of SPD: having a lower than average SPD may cause concerns, but it also depends on how the GM and the player treats the issue.

A fictional game situation: the hero team Justice Enforcers is battling a conglomeration of their enemies who have allied against the heroes to settle some grudges. Man-Mountain (a brick with SPD 3) has just knocked out two of the villains by slamming one with another as a sledge (in segment 4, and is now waiting for his next Phase in segment 8). His teammates are rather busy as the heroes are still outnumbered. The GM wants to occupy his character and decides that Novaflame, a villainess with impressive energy powers, pretends to flee, but actually flies around the heroes in a wide circle to attack them from behind (this takes place during segment 5). The GM secretly makes a PER Roll for Man-Mountain, which succeeds (either because it does or because the GM thinks it should), and tells Man-Mountain's player that he notices the cowardly (but tactical) attack from behind. Man-Mountain wants to protect his teammates' backs, so he Aborts his next Action, picks up a huge truck and tries to block Novaflame's Stellar Blast with it (the GM allows Block vs ranged attacks). While this causes the truck to be mostly destroyed (GMs interpretation of the successful Block) enough of the metal remains to be useful for another Block attempt. The battle continues, and Electrix, one of Man-Mountain's team members, shoots a "thanks for saving my back, man" to Man-Mountain, who replies "no problemo, bro" and continues to watch Novaflame, who glares in frustration at Man-Mountain. In segment 8, Novaflame (who is SPD 5) decides on another angle: she flies up to a point some 40m above the hero team, intending to unload an intense wide blast at several of them. Man-Mountain reacts by trying to throw the remainder of the truck into the path of Novaflame's blast (the GM allows this as another Block attempt), and succeeds with this. The truck is now completely obliterated, but in the meantime, the other heroes have dispatched enough of their opponents that Man-Mountain's close friend Electrix hopefully has a chance to take down Novaflame before she can take out her frustration on the now unprotected Man-Mountain (who indeed has high enough defenses to survive this, albeit with some damage). Man-Mountain exclaims "Uh-oh, you better help me out here, Electrix!" when he realizes this situation.

My point here is that SPD definitely has an effect, but even a low SPD doesn't necessarily keep a PC out of the action. Forgive me if I'm overstating the obvious.