Predators vs. Military

[Yansuf]

Well, the "I loves me some xenomorphs" thread has gotten interest in predators, so let's start a thread for that!

 

Now, we don't have any information on whether the predators have organized military units, and if they do what their organization and weaponry is. But assuming that they do not (which I agree is a VERY iffy proposition) I think that a (properly trained) unit of modern soldiers would have a very good chance against an equal number of predators, even if the predators acted as a team, provided that the soldiers had sensors that could reliably detect and target the predators, and the predators weaponry is no better than what was shown in the movies.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

provided that the soldiers had sensors that could reliably detect and target the predators

 

That's a very difficult "provided" I think.

 

and the predators weaponry is no better than what was shown in the movies.

 

And this is a complete unknown, but I'll hazard a guess that they do. It should be noted that the Predators in the first two movies (I'll skip the AvP films.) were hunting parties. From what little I've seen of their mentality, they wouldn't likely use their 'best' weapons on a hunt -- they'd use weapons that required more skill, to demonstrate their prowess. Does that make sense?

 

Given that they've got the technology to travel between stars, they should have weaponry far in advance of what they used in the films. And in an all-out fight for survival (as opposed to a hunting expedition), they'd be less inclined to hold back.

 

It's like deer hunting. Bow-hunting is popular because it's challenging, but if the deer start shooting back with assault rifles and RPG's, never mind the 'challenge', it's time to call in an air strike.

 

Don't look at me,

Xavier Onassiss

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

if we're looking at games & books as well as movies, then the Predators have been established to have separate Hunter and Warrior castes, and the various fancy hand weapons are mostly Hunter Caste toys.

[Badger]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

Regardless, I have always thought of the Predator in some respects to being the ultimate guerilla-style fighter. And do I need bring up our military history of the last 40 years? If the Predators, find themselves in unfavorable situation they would just sneak off with minimal (if any) casualties. The Predators have never shown an inclination to fight a war of territorial conquest, so there want be much need to hold positions. As long as they dont get cut off from "supplies" they would be alright. And hell, they're hunters, they'll "create" their own supplies.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

Even if you choose to just use the movies as "canon," the Predator species has proven itself remarkably resilient to small arms fire. Even the shotgun slugs Danny Glover's character was hitting the Predator with in the second movie did little more than a couple of Body and a lot of Stun. Certainly not enough to take it out of the fight. I think modern tactics would be effective, but we would have to come up with some heavier hitting weaponry in order to do anything real serious. Maybe a medium or large bore rifle round that is somewhere around .375 H&H or even a .458 Winchester. I would probably think some sort of drum or box arrangement for loading and not autofire. The kick would be pretty intense on semi-auto as is. Standard NATO 5.56 and 7.62 rounds would do little to them based on the movies. Wonder how they would fare against the heavier elephant gun rounds (.577 Tyrannosaur or .700 Nitro Express) or some anti-materials rounds (.50 BMG or 20mm Solothurn)? Betcha a sniper rifle of one of those types would really ruin a Predator's day.

 

Chemical agents, especially injected ones, may even be the ticket. They have that obnoxious breathing mask to assist versus inhalants. I imagine the (possibly non-canon) reference to their immunity/resistance to the alien xenomorph acid would indicate some sort of general resistance to corrosive elements. I wonder how they deal with napalm? Sort of joking there, but some sort of incendiary delivered by a small shotgun round sized canister may be effective against them. Lots of potential for battle damage to cause that option to backfire though.

 

Thinking outside the kill 'em all box, what about sonic weaponry? Microwave weaponry? I seem to recall reading about those sorts of things. Hell, would a taser be effective? Maybe a supercharged version. Other close in weapons might be "knives" with a small directional charge or high pressure air release that drives the blades in real deep. Chainsaws.

 

The Predator species seems pretty perceptive to booby traps, but they are not omniscient. A well placed claymore would probably give them a world of hurt. Other explosives would probably be as effective.

 

Sorry about the stream of thought post. Those are some ideas anyway.

[ender42]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

I see your sniper, and give you a computer targeted laser-beam.

 

The problem with guns is the further the range, the poorer the accuracy.

 

Also, let's not forget predator armor (for tasers).

 

Since they breathe methane (and have been shown to be able to generate it from dead bodies in the comics), perhaps flammability is the route to go?

[Nolgroth]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

I see your sniper' date=' and give you a computer targeted laser-beam.[/quote']Never said the battle was going to be one sided.

 

The problem with guns is the further the range, the poorer the accuracy.

It is not unheard of for trained snipers to be consistently accurate at long range. Some of the world class snipers have taken targets out over a mile away. Not that the cloaked Predator is going to be easy to spot and kill that far away, but the theory is still sound.

 

Also, let's not forget predator armor (for tasers).

Nor their considerable natural resiliency.

 

Since they breathe methane (and have been shown to be able to generate it from dead bodies in the comics), perhaps flammability is the route to go?

I think some sort of incendiary would be very effective. Dangerous to the wielder, but effective if used before the Predator can retaliate in some cunning way.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

Well, the "I loves me some xenomorphs" thread has gotten interest in predators, so let's start a thread for that!

 

Now, we don't have any information on whether the predators have organized military units, and if they do what their organization and weaponry is. But assuming that they do not (which I agree is a VERY iffy proposition) I think that a (properly trained) unit of modern soldiers would have a very good chance against an equal number of predators, even if the predators acted as a team, provided that the soldiers had sensors that could reliably detect and target the predators, and the predators weaponry is no better than what was shown in the movies.

 

In Predator and Predator 2, this was the basic scenario with one Predator. Neither group did that well. I spot you surprise in the first movie, but in Predator 2 they not only knew what they were looking for, but they had a way to track it and temporarily blind it. Unless the troops have some firepower I haven't seen yet, I don't think they have much of a chance.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

In Predator and Predator 2' date=' this was the basic scenario with one Predator. Neither group did that well. I spot you surprise in teh first movie, but in Predator 2 they not only knew what they were looking for, but they had a way to track it and temporarily blind it. Unless the troops have some firepower I haven't seen yet, I don't think they have much of a chance.[/quote']

 

That is a good point. The special agents in Predator II thought they knew what they were up against and had prepared for it, but the Pred was shrewd enough to guess that it was dealing with some sort of trap, and pulled out an unexpected capability (shifting the frequency of its vision system) to nullify those preparations. OTOH the humans were attempting to capture the Predator rather than kill it, using liquid-nitrogen sprayers. The outcome might have been different if they'd employed high-grade lethal ammunition.

 

I notice that all the discussion so far has been comparing the capabilities of the Predators' personal weaponry, equipment, and physical abilities and skills, to those of humans. If the speculation extends to all-out war between their species and humanity, I have to mention that in the film Alien vs. Predator the Preds' starship deployed an energy-beam cannon that was able to melt a train-sized tunnel through hundreds of yards of Antarctic ice in less than a minute, from orbit.

[Sundog]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

A military squad, prepared and knowing what they were up against, with no "Capture the Target" ROEs to hamper them, would have a good chance of taking out A Predator. Given the Predator's greater maneuverability and agility, stealth, advanced weaponry and the skill even inexperienced Predators show (the novelisation of P2 indicates that was his first solo hunt), more than one would be more than a squad could handle.

[ender42]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

It is not unheard of for trained snipers to be consistently accurate at long range. Some of the world class snipers have taken targets out over a mile away.

Hey, I do know a thing or two about snipers. Leonardo da Vinci ring a bell? But, sorry I wasn't clear - I was comparing LOS weapons, say 30 miles to Orbital, versus a non-crewed/non-vehicle mounted slug-thrower. Really, there's no comparison. Well, except the larger-sized slug-throwers needed to get sufficient range make excellently larger targets

 

A military squad, prepared and knowing what they were up against, with no "Capture the Target" ROEs to hamper them, would have a good chance of taking out A Predator.

I disagree.

 

And, I'd like to note for the warfare argument, that the Predators would have a much better kill ratio, if you are correct. Every hunter they lose, we lose one city to a nuke.

 

Kinda takes all the fun out of warfare, don'tcha think?

 

Also, amongst other weapons they've been shown to possess, they could drop xenomorph facehugger eggs, well, pretty much anywhere on the planet. They could just sit back, and watch us try to deal with that, and then laze us from orbit, whenever we try and bring a tank, or helicopter to bear on that problem. Even if they don't want to snipe individual humans. Thus driving all humans underground... into tunnels... which is the favored environment for Xenomorphs... Win-win? Heh.

[Curufea]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

Also' date=' amongst other weapons they've been shown to possess, they could drop xenomorph facehugger eggs, well, pretty much anywhere on the planet. They could just sit back, and watch us try to deal with that, and then laze us from orbit, whenever we try and bring a tank, or helicopter to bear on that problem. Even if they don't want to snipe individual humans. Thus driving all humans underground... into tunnels... which is the favored environment for Xenomorphs... Win-win? Heh.[/quote']

 

Which is almost exactly the premise of the first AVP comic. Predators go around seeding worlds with xenomorphs in order to create a hunting world worthy of a proper safari. One of the worlds has human colonists as well. Hilarity ensues.

[ender42]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

Yeah,got that comic. But it appeared to be inadvertent, not a planned military maneuver (ie: hit the herds, which were probably rounded up by helicopter). They could instead, stealth drop them into sewers and the like. Even distribution around the planet, etc, etc. And they could not go hunting, and instead wage war.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

I think .30-06 AP rounds, fired in controlled 2-3 round bursts, would be sufficiently powerful at close distances to at least stun a Pred with a direct center of mass hit. That's pretty much the biggest military round you could hit them with, outside of .50 cal. Create a weapon that's a cross between the ACR/OICW and a BAR, and you've got a real beast of a combat rifle. Give the troops some clothes that reduce their heat signatures, and give them headgear that enables them to detect the PReds at close range, and they've got more of a fighting chance.

[ender42]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

Assuming the predator doesn't feel like sniping them off from a distance (after they figure out itws war, and not trophy-gathering).

 

Yeah, we could make trophy-gathering really painful for Predators. But that has little to do with how they stack up militarily. Like I said earlier, if they start losing every trophy gathering mission (and we start losing cities), they may decide we're a threat and get serious about getting rid of the vermin.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

One claymore per soldier, rigged to go up when the Pred goes to collect their "trophy", equals "epic win". Even when they win, they die horribly.

[Curufea]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

It's more than heat signature though - it's been shown they have other spectrums they can view - even some we don't have the technology for.

 

When it comes to gear - bet on the Predators having higher technology, more efficient and effective gear.

 

If you are comparing humans to Predators in military might - and all you are doing is comparing gear (my thingy is bigger than your thingy) - then you are arguing a losing battle. Predator thingies will always be superior.

 

So try arguing some other element of warfare if you want humans to come close to winning.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

It's more than heat signature though - it's been shown they have other spectrums they can view - even some we don't have the technology for.

 

When it comes to gear - bet on the Predators having higher technology, more efficient and effective gear.

 

If you are comparing humans to Predators in military might - and all you are doing is comparing gear (my thingy is bigger than your thingy) - then you are arguing a losing battle. Predator thingies will always be superior.

 

So try arguing some other element of warfare if you want humans to come close to winning.

 

Well, nobody cheats better at warfare than humans. We're nasty, ruthless little buggers when we need to be. We'd figure out what their weaknesses were, then exploit them mercilessly.

[Curufea]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

That, I find plausible

 

Although more likely we will come to some peaceful accomodation with the Predators, change government and completely renege on everything said, catching them by surprise.

 

[edit]

Not only that the majority of the populace will denounce the reneging to such an extent it may even confuse the casual observation of our society by the Predators.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

That, I find plausible

 

Although more likely we will come to some peaceful accomodation with the Predators, change government and completely renege on everything said, catching them by surprise.

 

"We just need to relocate you to a new reserv---uh, planet, we mean a new planet."

[Curufea]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

I was thinking more-

 

"We will help you in your quest to change your regime, because it means good trade"

"Oh, the world media found out how bad you are - and your new regime is not an improvement to society, just to us in trade? Well, we are now declaring you EVIL! EVIL I SAY!"

[Yansuf]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

In the first movie, the predator was wounded after the team shot up the jungle. Yes, they fired an amazing number of rounds, but almost all missed.

They were firing 9 mm SMG, 5.56 ball, 7.62 ball, and 40 mm grenades. (Yes, we do not know that they were using standard "ball" ammo, but in that time period, in that area, it is a given.) One or more (probably one) rounds hit the predator, and wounded it.

Based on that, 7.62 AP would definitely penetrate the predator armor, 5.56 AP probably would, and 5.56 and 7.62 "special" AP both definitely would.

It has been mentioned that in the second movie a shotgun didn't penetrate the armor at point blank range. Well, shotguns may have GR8 power, but they have very poor penetration. (Unless you use very special sabot AP ammo, which I do not believe is commercially available.) So military rifles with "special" AP rounds will work.

It has been suggested that predators would just stand off at long range and use their DEW. I don't think so. I don't recall its use in the second movie (I've only seen that one once) but in the first movie the weapon is clearly some kind of "particle" weapon (plasma gun?) that is sub-sonic; it will have a lower effective range than modern rifles.

Finally, if we assume that the predators shown in the first 2 movies are hunters, that does not automatically mean their weapons are not state of the art. Until WWII, human soldiers' personal weapons were not better than hunters' weapons.

Of course the "colonial marines" from Aliens are better armed than modern day infantry.

[Curufea]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

The shotgun in the second movie was using solid ammunition, not shot.

I've no problem with their plasma gun being short range - it ties in with their hunting style.

 

More worrisome is their ability to build a bomb of incredible magnitude into a bracelet.

 

And has been pointed out in the first AVP movie - an orbital laser that can drill subway size tunnels.

[Yansuf]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

The shotgun in the second movie was using solid ammunition, not shot.

I've no problem with their plasma gun being short range - it ties in with their hunting style.

 

Even with slugs, a shotgun has much less penetration than a rifle.

[ender42]

Re: Predators vs. Military

 

Not only that the majority of the populace will denounce the reneging to such an extent it may even confuse the casual observation of our society by the Predators.

 

That assumes they're wussy enough to believe that shit. I personally think that as long as people are armed, then they are acceding to the government they allow to remain in charge of their country - and are responsible for its actions and inactions. If the populace is unarmed, it might be arguable that they're being held hostage to the whims of their rules. Perhaps.

 

Collective responsibility has been posited of entire species in Brin's multiple culture universe (Startide Rising?)

 

nobody cheats better at warfare than humans.

 

That's because you've only ever seen ants fight. If there are no rules, how can you cheat? And vs. another species, for species survival - with no shared cultural bounds, there are most likely no rules. Send in the asteroids, or nova the sun.

 

Even when they win, they die horribly.

 

And we lose another city full of humans. Also assuming they'd go in an trip a claymore, instead of cutting the line (requires a tripwire - most of the time). Which assumes they're still hunting, and not engaging in warfare.

 

they have other spectrums they can view - even some we don't have the technology for.

 

Don't buy this. We can detect anything on the EM spectrum. We may or may not have off-the-shelf, optimized devices that can be turned into helmet-mountable optics....

 

build a bomb of incredible magnitude into a bracelet.

As far as I can remember, that was just the control to the bomb - ie: a monitoring device, in case the hunter was killed, or if he wanted to suicide.