Combat Options

[Colossus]

Here is a GM relatively new to this system, but experienced with others, question for you. In your Champions games which Optional Combat rules do you not allow or modify? If possible I’d also like to know why!

[Monolith]

I do not use any of the optional rules in my Champions games (and in fact they are suggested to only be used in Heroic Level games). I do use all of the optional combat maneuvers though. I think the combat maneuvers add a sense of style to the game. The Heroic Level rules have a tendency to slow down combat when used in superhero games.

[RDU Neil]

BIG QUESTION...

 

Depending on folks moods, you'll get a LOT of different answers here.

 

The most contentious is the Stun Multiple for Killing Attacks. Some folks like it, as is... but many of us find it very unbalancing. I'd argue that the single most unbalanced power in Hero is a KA of 4d6 or more, using the Stun Multiple.

 

The reason is, that you play what we call the "stun lottery." Using a KA, you can, 33% of the time, get a VERY high stun multiple on your attack. It is a side effect of a power that was not intended to be a stunning attack, but instead actually lethal in nature.

 

Many of folks on these boards have a ton of options for changing the Stun Multiple. Mine is very simple. Use a flat 3x multiple. Roll the body, multiply by 3 for stun amount. This is slightly below average (3.5 being the median on a 6 sided die) but is very effective. If the amount of body is high, indicating a solid hit, the stun is high... if the body is low, the stun is low, indicating a glancing shot. Very simple, very elegant. Others propose a flat 2x multiple... which can also work well.

 

There are a ton of house rules and optional combat rules out there... so be prepared for a lot of responses.

[Acroyear]

We pretty much use them all and don't find them to slow us down any. Now against thugs and stuff, we don't bother... because, really, who cares? They are all dropping in one or two hits, anyway.

[MisterVimes]

In my Champions game I ignore most of th optional rules (as reccomended) but allow all of the combat manuevers. The one exception is hit location. If a player makes a called shot I use the body and stun mutiples where appropriate (i.e. a called shot on the head of an elemental is no more damaging than any other shot).

[Colossus]

Boy this was a newbie question, I was actually only thinking about the maneuvers. Especially thinks like Rapid Fire, does it unbalance play. I mean if one PC has bought up speed and anonther has bout up combat levels do the minus really make it a fair fight?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Colossus

[bEspecially thinks like Rapid Fire, does it unbalance play. I mean if one PC has bought up speed and anonther has bout up combat levels do the minus really make it a fair fight? [/b]

The character who Rapid Fires has the advantage over the character with the higher Speed. A 12d6 attack Rapid Fired 3 times is only -4 per hit, so if you have 4 levels with the attack it all balances out. That 12d6 attack does 42 STUN and 12 BODY per hit (on average). If the targer has a 25 DEF he will take 51 points of STUN from the attacks. All of that done in one phase over the three phases it would take a high Speed character to do the same thing.

 

Rapid Fire and Sweep need to be monitored by the GM, but when a character does them the GM should have other villains attack the character due to the fact that they can see he is off balance from the RF attack (the attacker will be at half DCV). Knowing he will be attacked balances the desire to do the attack in the player's mind.

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by Monolith

The character who Rapid Fires has the advantage over the character with the higher Speed. A 12d6 attack Rapid Fired 3 times is only -4 per hit, so if you have 4 levels with the attack it all balances out. That 12d6 attack does 42 STUN and 12 BODY per hit (on average). If the targer has a 25 DEF he will take 51 points of STUN from the attacks. All of that done in one phase over the three phases it would take a high Speed character to do the same thing.

 

Rapid Fire and Sweep need to be monitored by the GM, but when a character does them the GM should have other villains attack the character due to the fact that they can see he is off balance from the RF attack (the attacker will be at half DCV). Knowing he will be attacked balances the desire to do the attack in the player's mind.

 

Or you can look at it as...

 

Five Speed character with +4 vs. Rapid Fire can Rapid Fire Three Shots, Five times. at full OCV

 

Eight Speed character with no level, can Rapid Fire EIGHT TIMES, though at a -4 each time. Plus, they can choose to do other things on their actions.

 

Eight speed is infinitely more flexible than level with Rapid Fire, and only if your game is all about two characters simply blasting at each other like tanks until one falls, will levels be "more powerful" than Speed.

 

Heck... the high Speed character can use those extra actions to dodge... attack at more opportune moments... like off balance foes as mentioned above.

 

Don't sell Speed short. You just have to be tactical, rather than mathematical, about combat.

[RDU Neil]

I'd also suggest not using Hit Location in a superhero game, 'cause there is nothing more frustrating than winding up a haymaker or a pushed energy blast... and hitting the "hand" or "Foot" and doing no damage.

 

For called shots, it's a good reference, but as Mr. Vimes said, you have to do a lot of GM adjudicating in a supers game, 'cause often a metahuman doesn't have the same vulnerabilities as a norm.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by RDU Neil

Don't sell Speed short. You just have to be tactical, rather than mathematical, about combat.

I was not selling Speed short. I was just answer his question as to whether it would be a fair fight between a character who bought extra Speed and a character who bought combat levels to do Rapid Fire attacks. Assuming everything else between the characters is equal, the character with a 4 Speed who Rapid Fires 3 times per phase is going to win over the character with a 6 Speed who does not; or tries to with the -4 OCV.

[RDU Neil]

Not necessarily...

 

Originally posted by Monolith

I was not selling Speed short. I was just answer his question as to whether it would be a fair fight between a character who bought extra Speed and a character who bought combat levels to do Rapid Fire attacks. Assuming everything else between the characters is equal, the character with a 4 Speed who Rapid Fires 3 times per phase is going to win over the character with a 6 Speed who does not; or tries to with the -4 OCV.

 

I hate to start an argument with you... but I can't let this go.

 

 

Segment 2, Capt. 6 SPD fires single shot, hits for average damage.

 

Segment 3, Lady 4 SPD fires Rapid Fire of three shots... but 6 SPD aborts to Dodge, so these three shots are effectively -3 per shot. Likely one shot will hit. Doing average damage, things are equal at this point. (More in Capt. 6 SPD's favor, if he has Martial Dodge.)

 

Segment 4 aborted by Capt. 6 SPD

 

Segment 5, no one goes

 

Segment 6, all other things being equal, Capt. 6 SPD goes first, while Lady 4 SPD is still 1/2 DCV... and Rapid Fires for three at -4. If their CV is 9 or better (10 being average for my campaigns, and we are assuming these two are equal in all other ways) then the 1/2 DCV MORE than gives the advantage to Capt. 6 SPD... and likely all 3 will hit.

 

Fight to Capt. 6 SPD. Having hit four times in three actions.

 

Even if Lady 4 SPD aborts to dodge... Capt. 6 SPD will win that race, 'cause he has more actions to burn, and will eventually have this same advantage.

 

 

Again... I'm not saying the fight is guaranteed, one way or another... but I'd really give the nod to the higher SPD character, in an otherwise equal fight.

[Monolith]

Re: Not necessarily...

 

Originally posted by RDU Neil

Segment 2, Capt. 6 SPD fires single shot, hits for average damage.

Combats start on Segment 12, not Segment 2.

 

Segment 6, all other things being equal, Capt. 6 SPD goes first, while Lady 4 SPD is still 1/2 DCV... and Rapid Fires for three at -4. If their CV is 9 or better (10 being average for my campaigns, and we are assuming these two are equal in all other ways) then the 1/2 DCV MORE than gives the advantage to Capt. 6 SPD... and likely all 3 will hit.

At the start of Segment 6 Lady no-longer has the 1/2 DCV. She would be at full DCV because they are equal Dexterities. So Cap attacks and has a 11- chance of hitting. Lady retaliates with 3 attacks and has an 11- chance of each hitting. Or Lady can decide to attack only twice and have a 13- chance to hit with each attack.

 

The levels make Lady more versatile than the Speed does because she can do more with them. Lady can use them to Rapid Fire, or just add them to OCV. The Speed can only be used to add more actions in a Turn.

[Crowd]

Already at limits

 

In the discussion of Speed vs Rapid Fire and levels, there are ads and disads to both. But perhaps it's worth noting that =IF= you were playing in a campaign that had limits to things like Speed and/or Maximum attack, changing from 4th edition to 5th edition changed things quite a bit. If you had players who were already at the old limits (say, for Speed), adding SWEEP and RAPID FIRE and MULTIPLE POWER ATTACKS seriously increased their firepower without changing their character sheets one bit. So to keep the campaign in balance you need to have all the other players and all of the villians do it as well. This is not necessarily bad - but it does change the violence level. The balance of "what levels of offense and defense are appropriate for this campaign" may have to shift.

[LegionX]

Optional rules

 

In my experience, Hit Location took away from the Superhero experience. But the combat maneuvers work fine.

I have used optional rules like Hit Location and other optional rules from Dark Champions added to Heroic adventures where gunfire was flying and swords were swinging.

 

Just my Two Cents,

LegionX

[TheEmerged]

Here's my take.

 

Hit Location Chart. This is always used in campaigns in which the characters have Normal Characteristic Maxima by default (henceforth, NCM-default campaigns). In super-heroic campaigns, it is used for determining the Stun Mod of Killing Attacks and as a benchmark for "called shots" to specific body locations. The Body Multiplier is not used in Superheroic campaigns.

 

Rapid Fire. Working better (more balanced) than I expected. It dramatically increases the ability of the PC's to mow through agent-level types. The players that took Autofire slots haven't stopped using them in favor of Rapid Attacks yet. Officially the jury is still out, but it's not as suspicious as it was at the outset.

 

Blazing Away. Only came up once, player didn't connect a single blow. Fact that it hits only on a 3 and can't be modified with skills means it doesn't appeal to my players.

 

Club Weapon. Hasn't come up yet (villain campaign, reducing killing attacks minor issue if at all). Definitely expected to be more of an issue in appropriate NCM-default campaigns.

 

Cover. Never understood why this one is optional...

 

Dive for Cover. A mixed bag. Only good for avoiding area effects -- which by their nature aren't doing as much as an outright attack anyway. Players tend to feel that the DEX roll is too easy to make and that this option makes Area Effect less than viable -- unless they're the ones Diving, anyway

 

Hurry & Hipshot. This is actually becoming more of an issue than Rapid Attack The fixed penalties absolutely scream "Penalty Skill Level", and two of my players have expressed interest in spending experience that way. I don't like the way it comes too close to resembling an every-turn initiative roll; I've started trying to work on a rule based on Hurry's final paragraph.

 

Pulling a Punch. Hasn't come up in current campaign (cf Club Weapon), but it has a nice effect in higher-point campaigns where not hurting the opponent too badly is an issue. Not nearly the issue in NCM-default campaigns the rules make it sound like.

 

Roll with a Punch. Again, the set-in-stone OCV penalty screams "PSL!" If you've got a character with an out-of-whack OCV advantage this one can get problematic. Make sure the players know they can't keep doing this -- its a once per phase kind of thing. Still, it's a great tool for the PC's in "boss" fights and one you should be prepared for if you allow it.

 

Suppression Fire. If you allow Rapid Fire, you pretty much have to allow this one to keep the balance in check.

 

Sweep. Insert "why is this optional" joke here, except for the whole "sweep against one target" nonsense.

[ryusen]

Re: BIG QUESTION...

 

The most contentious is the Stun Multiple for Killing Attacks. Some folks like it, as is... but many of us find it very unbalancing. I'd argue that the single most unbalanced power in Hero is a KA of 4d6 or more, using the Stun Multiple.

The most abusive thing i've seen done is to take a 1d6 rka, AvLD and tack on as many SMs as the DC limit will allow. Add to that a possible autofire too... it is ugly... (and this was 4ed, when SM was a +1/2 Advantage)