So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

[pinecone]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

I've been mulling over the stat costs in 6E, but not being familiar with other rules (Powers, Talents, etc) changes, I don't really know how this plays out.

 

It seems that with the new way characteristics are handled, a higher percentage of the points would be spent on stats to get an equivalent character in 6E, even after accounting for the extra 50 points suggested for a standard super.

 

Let's say:

 

60 STR

18 DEX

30 CON

15 BDY

13 INT

11 EGO

20 PRE

10 COM

30 PD

20 ED

04 SPD

18 REC

60 END

60 STN

 

6 OCV/DCV

4 MOCV/MDCV

 

Under 5th Edition: 183 pts out of 350 or 52.3%

 

Under 6th Edition: 249 pts out of 400 or 62.25%

 

So, a slight difference in points. Obviously, the higher your derived stats would have been under the old system, the bigger the disparity will be if you try to buy them up under the new system.

 

What I'm wondering is how this balances out against other changes, such as costs of defensive powers, changes to frameworks, etc.

 

Do you all feel that bricks are pretty well balanced out point-wise? Not so much vs. other archetypes, but rather that there are enough points left after buying sufficiently bricky-feeling stats to buy the other bits and pieces a good brick should have? (Defenses, combat ability, an exotic defense or two, "brick trick" powers, and some skills.)

 

I've only poked around a little...but they seem a Lot more expensive...basicly when I built a brick, He/She had little to no skills due to lack of points.

 

But lots of games seem to have "no skilz" bricks anyway so it may or may not be an "issue"....

[RexMundi]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

'Aight. I call Brick-a-Palooza! Everyone make a 6e 400 Point standard Brick, and have it posted by Monday. Pictures Optional.

 

~Rex.....is gonna build, the Brick of ALL Bricks.......Possibly even better then his 1960's 6e Brick for Fun....Kamalalawalu the Walking Island! (Because all REAL bricks, should have Growth......)

[The Main Man]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

'Aight. I call Brick-a-Palooza! Everyone make a 6e 400 Point standard Brick, and have it posted by Monday. Pictures Optional.

 

~Rex.....is gonna build, the Brick of ALL Bricks.......Possibly even better then his 1960's 6e Brick for Fun....Kamalalawalu the Walking Island! (Because all REAL bricks, should have Growth......)

Ooh, sounds like fun.

 

I'll try that myself.

 

Heck, that almost sounds like a thread series idea: 6e workshops so that everyone can get a grasp of making characters.

[dmjalund]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

Suggestion have default behave like 5E, but with an Advantage (say +1/2) it behaves like 6E

 

so you can simulate both pen knifes AND spiked gauntlets

[Squall]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

I've only poked around a little...but they seem a Lot more expensive...basicly when I built a brick, He/She had little to no skills due to lack of points.

 

But lots of games seem to have "no skilz" bricks anyway so it may or may not be an "issue"....

Yeah, I couldn't help but notice that in the otherwise-exceptional (seriously, I really dig 'em for the most part!) "build-a-character" quick select stuff in the core Champions book...the Brick skill selections, all two of them, were both pretty much 30 points worth of combat stuff and that's it. Kind of disappointing, to me, and all the moreso because it means if a GM does use them to quickly throw together a generi-Brick, it means that if the PC isn't built with the same focus on combat, he'll be outclassed.

 

That "30 points of skills" is pretty shallow when it's all CSLs instead of skills.

[assault]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

'Aight. I call Brick-a-Palooza! Everyone make a 6e 400 Point standard Brick' date=' and have it posted by Monday. Pictures Optional.[/quote']

 

Hmm.... Monday. I can do that. Silver Age Kryptonians are surprisingly cheap. Unfortunately most of them couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. If they're teenagers from a very sheltered upbringing, they don't have skills either.

 

In other words: Silver Age Supergirl!

[Wolf]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

'Aight. I call Brick-a-Palooza! Everyone make a 6e 400 Point standard Brick, and have it posted by Monday. Pictures Optional.

 

~Rex.....is gonna build, the Brick of ALL Bricks.......Possibly even better then his 1960's 6e Brick for Fun....Kamalalawalu the Walking Island! (Because all REAL bricks, should have Growth......)

 

I'll go for that, I just built myself an NPC brick for a one on one with my wife. I haven't had any characters ever critiqued before, so this should be good for me.

 

He's for a standard point, Kinda X-men/ Disney Gargoyles level game, maybe a tad more powerful, but Again he's the brick, and as such handing out, by and far the most damage.

[McCoy]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

'Aight. I call Brick-a-Palooza! Everyone make a 6e 400 Point standard Brick, and have it posted by Monday. Pictures Optional.

 

~Rex.....is gonna build, the Brick of ALL Bricks.......Possibly even better then his 1960's 6e Brick for Fun....Kamalalawalu the Walking Island! (Because all REAL bricks, should have Growth......)

Just to clairily, that's 400 + up to 75 from disads?

[RexMundi]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

Just to clairily' date=' that's 400 + up to 75 from disads?[/quote']

 

You are Correct Sir! ......Halfway through my Brick....Should have it by Monday. Still tempting to post Kamalalawalu the Walking Island! as well, heh.....but he only really fits in a set up something like Agents of Atlas....Still....bears thought. I like the workshop thread idea as well.....may jump on that next week since the first thing I do with any new edition after I set up my new campaign world etc.....is to make a bunch of Ultimate Archetypes for each Type of PC.....

 

~Rex

[The Main Man]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

You are Correct Sir! ......Halfway through my Brick....Should have it by Monday. Still tempting to post Kamalalawalu the Walking Island! as well, heh.....but he only really fits in a set up something like Agents of Atlas....Still....bears thought. I like the workshop thread idea as well.....may jump on that next week since the first thing I do with any new edition after I set up my new campaign world etc.....is to make a bunch of Ultimate Archetypes for each Type of PC.....

 

~Rex

 

If they're good enough they may make for good references for new players.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

I'll go for that' date=' I just built myself an NPC brick for a one on one with my wife. I haven't had any characters ever critiqued before, so this should be good for me.[/quote']

 

My only real critique is with the Thunder Clap, and it's not something wrong so much as inefficiency and a touch of missing something. In 6E, the Killing Attack doesn't really benefit from the STUN Lotto, and it does 1d6 less Knockback than, say, a comparable HtH attack or a regular Blast. So a STUN Only KA isn't all that great, IMO. I'd think a HtH attack would be better, perhaps linked with a small (2-3d6) Flash vs. Hearing Group. Just my two cents worth of advice.

 

Edit: Correction, one other thing I noticed. I don't really think Always On is a valid limitation on Life Support.

[Squall]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

Just to clairily' date=' that's 400 + up to 75 from disads?[/quote']

Err, should that read "400 counting/with up to 75 from disads," or have I misunderstood the very basics of character creation in 6E (Brick or otherwise).

 

If I'm cheating myself of 75 points, maybe that'd explain why I'm feeling the squeeze so much, and it has nothing to do with the loss of figured characteristics.

[RexMundi]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

You get 400, and then select up to 75 points of bad stuff. If you don't select the bad stuff, the 400 goes down. Sort of a scale effect really since folks were in a bad habit of spending points because they had them....

 

~Rex

[Wolf]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

My only real critique is with the Thunder Clap, and it's not something wrong so much as inefficiency and a touch of missing something. In 6E, the Killing Attack doesn't really benefit from the STUN Lotto, and it does 1d6 less Knockback than, say, a comparable HtH attack or a regular Blast. So a STUN Only KA isn't all that great, IMO. I'd think a HtH attack would be better, perhaps linked with a small (2-3d6) Flash vs. Hearing Group. Just my two cents worth of advice.

 

Edit: Correction, one other thing I noticed. I don't really think Always On is a valid limitation on Life Support.

 

You get 400, and then select up to 75 points of bad stuff. If you don't select the bad stuff, the 400 goes down. Sort of a scale effect really since folks were in a bad habit of spending points because they had them....

 

~Rex

 

If we have time before Monday, and we receive critique that we feel is valid enough can we alter our builds to come closer in line with said critiques? If not, I'll put up my changes, and just have it as a "how 'bout now" deal that's outside of the Brick-a-thon.

[McCoy]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

Err' date=' should that read "400 [i']counting/with [/i]up to 75 from disads," or have I misunderstood the very basics of character creation in 6E (Brick or otherwise).

 

If I'm cheating myself of 75 points, maybe that'd explain why I'm feeling the squeeze so much, and it has nothing to do with the loss of figured characteristics.

 

You get 400, and then select up to 75 points of bad stuff. If you don't select the bad stuff, the 400 goes down. Sort of a scale effect really since folks were in a bad habit of spending points because they had them....

 

~Rex

Now I've got to re-read that part.

 

[Edit] Crap! I did get it backwards! Up to 400 pts, including 75 pts in complications.

[Chimera 12]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

Purely mathematically, a 6E "400 points with 75 in matching Complications" character is equivalent to an older "325 base points plus 75 from Disadvantages" build. The difference is in presentation and emphasis -- 6E pushes more of a "I get this many points to build my character plus that many to make his life interesting with" perspective than a "I get this many points to build my character and if I want more (which I do) I have to pile on Bad Stuff to get them" one.

[The Main Man]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

Been working on it a bit, and I'm hoping to find a way to work Damage Negation in there somewhere, but it's being a creative stumbling block for me.

 

I know what DN is for, but I'm having trouble deciding on when it is more appropriate than Defenses or Damage Negation.

 

But then, that's part of the challenge I guess.

 

Also, I realized that Resistant as a Power Advantage not only makes innate Resistant defense cheaper when you also want Hardened/Impenetrable, but it also makes said Defense more resistant to Adjustment Powers. Interesting in my opinion.

[Alverant]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

Now I've got to re-read that part.

 

[Edit] Crap! I did get it backwards! Up to 400 pts, including 75 pts in complications.

 

Yeah, I don't like the wording of that either. On one hand, it's great for new players because it's clear about how many points you have to spend (400 pts not 325+75 in disads). Plus it's clear as to how many disads you are required to have, one way or another. So a new player can have however few disads he/she wants but still have to come up with 75 points total. But us veteran players still see it as base plus disads.

[Alverant]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

I see Damage Negation as a way to render immunity. As a GM I would nigh-require any DN to only be vs a particular kind of attack. If done right, it's a way to make villains that require heroes to defeat and can't be handled by local police. For example 6d6 Damage Negation vs conventional weapons (-1/2) is a mere 20 points but makes you immune to whatever the cops have. You don't have to worry about lucky shots to the head or defeat by a thousand "2 stun gets through" attacks for example. Meanwhile a hero with 6d6 heat ray vision would have better luck than a dozen cops since his attack won't be blocked by DN. OTOH if the national guard just happen to be nearby guarding a shipment of bazookas that would be a different story.

[The Main Man]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

That's a fair analysis. I will say that Invincibility (whether limited or not) was the very first thing that I thought of when I first read about Damage Negation.

 

I have used it for larger characters before as well. It simulates the larger size and surface area quite well.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

Not sure how well this will look -- I'm taking it from a Word document (I don't have Hero Designer for 6th yet). If formatting is bad, I'll try and clean it up.

 

[Edit: Corrections Made]

 

Maus

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

65 STR 55 22- lift 200 tons; 13d6 HTH [6]

14 DEX 8 12-

35 CON 25 16-

10 INT 0 11- PER Roll: 13-

20 EGO 10 13-

20 PRE 10 13- PRE Attack: 4d6

 

5 OCV 10

3 DCV 0

3 OMCV 0

7 DMCV 12

4 SPD 20 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12

 

22 PD 20 Total: 30 PD (8 rPD)

17 ED 15 Total: 25 ED (8 rED)

20 REC 16

70 END 10

20 BODY 10

70 STUN 25

 

Total Characteristics Cost: 246

 

Movement: Running: 22m/44m

Leaping: 26m/52m

Swimming: 0m

 

Cost Powers END

4 Heavy: Knockback Resistance -4m 0

24 Tough Skin: Resistant Protection (8 PD/8 ED) 0

6 Two Heads are Better than One: Mental Defense 10 points 0

6 Two Heads are Still Better than One: +2 to All PER 0

5 Did I Mention That Two Heads are Better than One?: Increased Arc on Sight Group (240 degrees) 0

5 Mutant Eyes: Ultraviolet Perception 0

5 Good Noses: Tracking Scent 0

10 Hardy Constitution: Power Defense 10 points 0

10 Strong Legs: Running +10m (22m total) 2

20 Strong Legs: Leaping +20m (24m total) 3

-2 Can’t Swim: Swimming -4m (0m total) 0

10 Not Easily Scared: +15 PRE, Only for Defense (-½) 0

10 Claws: Clinging 0

 

 

Talents

3 Bump of Direction

 

Skills

16 Combat Skill Levels: 2 Hand-to-Hand

5 Rapid Attack (HtH Multiple Attacks Only; -1)

3 Breakfall 12-

3 Climbing 12-

2 KS: Mazes 11-

3 Stealth 12-

3 Teamwork 12-

3 Tracking 12-

 

Total Powers & Skills Cost: 154

 

75 Matching Complications

20 Distinctive Features: Giant two-headed mouse (Major Reaction, Detect with Common Senses, Not Concealable)

15 Berserk 8- when upset or frustrated, Recover 14-

10 Hunted by ARGENT, Infrequently

15 Physical: Dual (sometimes Dueling) Personalities (Frequently, Slightly)

15 Psych: Overconfidence (Common, Strong)

 

Total Points: 400

 

Maus, the subject of a genetic experiment by ARGENT that went awry, is a huge (four meter tall) albino kangaroo mouse with two heads that frequently argue, and two tails that often twine around one another. He is heavily muscled and very intimidating in appearance, though this is mitigated as soon as he opens either mouth and speaks in his high, squeaky voice.

 

Last edit: This character was based on this picture:

[The Main Man]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

Nice one. Yours might go nicely with mine, but I pry won't have it up until tomorrow (I'm posting from a cell phone ).

[McCoy]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

Let's try again

 

Dolphin

 

PROFILE

Val Char Points Roll Notes

60 STR 0 21- HTH Damage 12d6 END [4]

13 DEX 6 12-

25 CON 0 14-

18 INT 8 13- PER Roll 15-

13 EGO 3 12-

20 PRE 10 13- PRE Attack: 4d6

 

7 OCV 20

7 DCV 20

3 OMCV 0

3 DMCV 0

4 SPD 20 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12

 

20 PD 0 20 PD (20 rPD)

15 ED 0 15 ED (15 rED)

10 REC 0

20 END 0

15 BODY 0

40 STUN 0

 

15m Running 0

15m Swimming 0

15m Leaping 0

87 Total Characteristics Points

 

COMPLICATIONS

Cost Complication

20 Psychological Complication: Code of Conduct: The Vow of the Buddhist Monk: Avoid strong emotion as often as possible, do not initiate violence (but defending oneself or others is permitted), help others when possible, do not eat meat. (Common; Total)

20 Psychological Complication: Dedicated Ecologist, protective of the planet (Very Common; Strong)

10 Physical Complication: Weirdness Magnet (Frequently; Barely Impairing)

10 Social Complication: Public ID Frequently, Minor

10 Distinctive Features: Clothes Are Frequently Shredded (Doc Savage Syndrome) (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

5 Distinctive Features: Openly Gay (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

75 Total Complications Cost

 

EXPERIENCE POINTS

Base Complications Unspent XP Total

400 75 0 398

 

COMBAT INFORMATION

SPEED CHART DEX 13 SPD 4 PHASES 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

 

DEFENSES

PD: 20 ED: 20 MD: 5 PowD: 5

NONRESISTANT 20

RESISTANT 20

 

MOVEMENT

Type Total

Run 15m [60m NC]

Swim 15m [60m NC]

H. Leap 15m

V. Leap 7 1/2m

 

COMBAT SKILL LEVELS

+2 with Pulling a Punch

 

COMBAT MANEUVERS

 

Maneuver Phase OCV DCV Effect

Block 1/2 +0 +0 Block, abort

Brace 0 +2 1/2 +2 vs. Range Mod.

Disarm 1/2 -2 +0 Can disarm

Dodge 1/2 -- +3 Abort, vs. all attacks

Grab 1/2 -1 -2 Grab two limbs

Grab By 1/2† -3 -4 Move and Grab; +(v/10) to STR

Haymaker 1/2* +0 -5 +4 DCs to attack

Move By 1/2† -2 -2 STR/2 + v/10; you take 1/3

Move Through 1/2† -v/10 -3 STR + v/6, you take 1/2 or full

Multiple Attack 1 var 1/2 Attack multiple times

Set 1 +1 +0 Ranged Attacks only

Shove 1/2 -1 -1 Push 1m per 5 STR

Strike 1/2 +0 +0 STR or weapon

Throw 1/2 +0 +0 Throw w/ STR dmg

Trip 1/2 -1 -2 Target Falls

Martial Block 1/2 +2 +2 Block, Abort

Martial Disarm 1/2 -1 +1 Disarm; 70 STR to Disarm

Martial Dodge 1/2 -- +5 Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort

Martial Escape 1/2 +0 +0 75 STR vs. Grabs

Martial Grab 1/2 -1 -1 Grab Two Limbs, 70 STR for holding on

 

POWERS END

Adaptibility

62 1) +50 STR, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (80 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) (Modifiers affect Base Characteristic) 3

15 2) +15 CON (21 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) (Modifiers affect Base Characteristic)

19 3) +13 PD, Resistant (+1/2) (24 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) (Modifiers affect Base Characteristic)

12 4) +8 ED, Resistant (+1/2) (15 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) (Modifiers affect Base Characteristic)

54 5) Force Field : Resistant Protection (5 PD/5 ED/5 Mental Defense/5 Power Defense/5 Flash Defense: Hearing Group/5 Flash Defense: Sight Group), Hardened (+1/4) (67 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) 0

5 6) +6 REC (8 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) (Modifiers affect Base Characteristic)

4 7) +5 BODY (8 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) (Modifiers affect Base Characteristic)

9 8) +20 STUN (14 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) (Modifiers affect Base Characteristic)

16 9) Running +3m (15m total), x4 Noncombat, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (23 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4)

15 10) Swimming +11m (15m total) (x4 Noncombat), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (19 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4)

14 11) Leaping +11m (15m forward, 7 1/2m upward) (x4 Noncombat), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (18 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4)

40 12) Life Support (Eating: Character does not eat; Immunity All terrestrial poisons; Immunity: All terrestrial diseases; Longevity: Immortal; Safe in High Pressure; Safe in High Radiation; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum; Self-Contained Breathing; Sleeping: Character does not sleep) (50 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) 0

6 13) +2 PER with all Sense Groups (7 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) 0

9 14) Regeneration (1 BODY per Day), Can Heal Limbs (11 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) 0

280 Total Powers Cost

 

SKILLS

Cost Name

5 PS: Marine Biology 14-

3 Charm 13-

4 +2 with Pulling a Punch

12 Total Skills Cost

 

FIGHTING SKILLS

Cost Name

4 Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort

4 Martial Disarm: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +1 DCV, Disarm; 70 STR to Disarm

4 Martial Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort

4 Martial Escape: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 75 STR vs. Grabs

3 Martial Grab: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Two Limbs, 70 STR for holding on

19 Total Fighting Skills Cost

 

PERSONAL DATA

Other Names: Michael Steelman Height: 7' 0"

Occupations: Weight: 276 lbs

Group Affiliations: Eyes: Blue Hair: Blond

Legal Status: US citizen with no criminal record

 

Huge suntanned muscular blond, hair worn in a 60's shag. No matter how careful he is his clothing frequently gets torn (when you are invulnerable you forget to avoid shap edges).

 

ORIGIN

His father was a professional surfer, his mother an ecological activist. Michael was born in the Pacific Ocean (New Age underwated birthing in a tide pool), learned to swim before he could walk, and by the age of two was staying underwater for hours at a time. "Dolphin" was his childhood nickname after several people noted that he "swims like a dolphin." Scientist who have studied him say he has a mutant ability of adaptation, literally what doesn't kill him makes him stronger. He was homeschooled, graduated high school at 15, had his PhD at 23. In college he realized he wasn't interested in women. He wasn't interested in men either until he became friends (later lovers) with a half-alien telepath.

 

PERSONALITY

Very laid back, cool and calm, seriously committed enviromentalist and always tried to avoid any act he feels would generate bad Karma.

 

TACTICS

"Human Shield." Will protect bystanders first, friends/teammates second, try to minimize colateral damage third. Believes he is invulnerable, so is truely fearless (NOT brave, fearless.) Will disarm opponents if possible then try to grab and hold without hurting them. If he is not blocking he will resist KB with STR. If forced to "duke it out" will pull his punch (full STUN and half BODY). Will only use full strength against inanimate objects.

 

QUOTE

"I'm not a superhero! I'm a marine biologist with frends who keep getting razzled by supervillians!"

 

Character created with Hero Designer (version 20100313 )

[The Main Man]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

Also a good one.

 

This "6e workshop" idea might have legs indeed.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

I think Negation can be used for two different purposes. The Invincibility approach is one. Counterintuitively, Fragile Supers is another. A game could mandate Damage Negation replace defenses. How would this change the Supers landscape? Well, they'd still be bulletproof, so no change there. But a 20 - 25 defense character rarely takes BOD. An attack, especially a normal attack, that can lay out 24+ BOD in a single hit means instant KO. This target takes about 17 - 22 STUN from a typical 12d6 attack.

 

If he had Damage Negation and a bit of PD/ED, he could have 6 levels of Damage Negation and 2 PD/ED. Now he takes 19 STUN from a typical attack, and he also takes 4 BOD. Supers who are just as bulletproof, but when hit by attacks at their own power level are injured, and even risk death. Seems more Iron Age to me. I'm more a Bronze Age fan, so not my preference, but excellent for simulating Supers combat where BOD damage is a much more present danger.