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Colossus

I know it's been done before, but ...JLA vs. Avengers vs. X-Men

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When we were kids there was that wonderful fight, which many of us still go through who would win between Thor and Superman; The Avengers and the JLA; the Teen Titans and the X-Men (X-Men hands down). Before the board crashed I was trying to see how people though this could be modeled in the Champions System, fair fights between super teams.

 

Here is my suggestion. Take 10,000 points and each character can get credit for up too 150 points in Disads. There is no max or min number of characters you can have, spend as many points per person as you want!

I just think this is a fun exercise.

 

Here are my teams, what would you do?

 

JLA

 

Superman: 1,000 (+150): 1,150

Wonder Woman: 750 (+150): 900

Martian Manhunter: 750 (+150): 900

Green Lantern, current: 750(+150): 900

Batman: 750 (+150): 900

Flash, current: 750 (+150): 900

Zalanta 650 (+150): 800

Red Tornodo 500 (+150): 650

Aquaman: 500 (+150): 650

Atom 500 (+150): 650

Firestorm: 500 (+150): 650

Plastic Man 300 (+150):450

Black Canary 300 (+150): 450

Green Arrow, orginal 300 (+150): 450

Hawkman: 300 (+150): 450

Hawkgirl: 300 (+150): 450

Fire 300 (+150): 450

Ice 300 (+150):450

Booster Gold: 300 (+150): 450

Blue Beetle: 200 (+150): 350

 

 

AVENGERS

 

Thor 1,000 (+150): 1,150

Iorn Man 750 (+150): 900

Captain Marvel/Photon 750 (+150): 900

Quasar 750 (+150): 900

Scarlet Witch 600 (+150): 750

Hercules 600 (+150): 750

Moondragon 600 (+150): 750

Captain America 500 (+150): 650

Vision 500 (+150): 650

Wonder Man 500 (+150): 650

Quicksilver: 400 (+150): 550

Warbird 400 (+150): 550

She-Hulk 400 (+150) 550

Wasp 300 (+150): 450

Hank Pym 300 (+150): 450

Hawkeye 300 (+150): 450

Black Panther 300 (+150): 450

Black Widow 300 (+150): 450

Starfox 300 (+150): 450

Firestar 250 (+150): 400

Justice 200 (+150): 350

 

 

X-MEN

 

Jean Grey 750 (+150): 900

Rogue 750 (+150): 900

Joseph 750 (+150): 900

Storm 600 (+150): 750

Professor X 500 (+150): 650

Iceman 500 (+150): 650

Wolverine 500 (+150): 650

Psylocke 500 (+150): 650

Nightcrawler 500 (+150): 650

Colossus 500 (+150): 650

Banshee 400 (+150): 550

Dazzler 400 (+150): 550

Bishop 400 (+150) 550

Canonball 400 (+150): 550

Cyclops 400 (+150): 550

Beast 400 (+150): 550

Archangel 300 (+150): 450

Havok 300 (+150): 450

Shadowcat 300 (+150): 450

Longshot 300 (+150): 450

Gambit 300 (+150): 450

Jubliee 250 (+150): 400

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Avengers vs JLA would really be a battle between the "big ones" like Thor, Iron Man, Hercules and Vision vs Superman, Martian Manhunter, Flash, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern.

 

Maybe I forgot someone.

 

If all these characters do an all-out fight. no holding back... the rest of the teammembers on each side should die quickly by the side-effects of the main battle.

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Yeah, this is fun.

 

Making up those established characters is a volatile thing, and tends to change according to the writers. I would do two version of each, one fast and rough-edge for use with a team, and the other one more min-maxed and detailed, for solo use.

 

I think you guys are giving too much points to some of these. Hawkman at 450? A little exessive IMO. Time to flex mine.

 

JLA

Superman; 700-900 pts, a STR of 90, SPD 6, dex 27, def 45.

Martian Manhunter; I don't know. He is a Superman with all powers. Regular martian stock, you know. 700-900 pts too.

Wonder Woman; 500-650 pts for the Greek but America-loving amazon.

Batman; 500-650 pts too, much in skills, gear and Find Weaknesses.

Aquaman; 450-600 pts.

Green Lantern; 450-600 pts, a huge variable pool with 0 END cost.

The Flash; 500-650 pts for the speedster to end all speedsters.

 

Avenger

Thor; 650-850 pts whitout Odinforce, STR 70, dex 18, a hammerfull of tricks.

Iron Man; 550-700 pts.

Cap America; 400-500 pts for the Icon, much of it in skills and CSLs.

The Wasp; 300-400 pts for this eternal underdog.

Scarlet Witch; 350-450 pts.

Hawkeye; No Avengers whitout this fave! 350-450 pts, a multipower.

Hank Pym, in whatever incarnation; 350-450 pts

 

X-Men

Prof Xavier; 350-450 pts

Marvel Girl (Jean Grey); 300-400 pts

Cyclops; 300-400 pts too

Iceman; 300-400 pts

Wolverine; 350-450 pts. I think this guy is overrated.

Rogue; My gawd. certainly 500-700 pts as designed. I don't like this concept.

Storm; 400-600 pts

 

Fantastic Four. I love this somewhat lackluster team.

Mr Fantastic; 450-600 pts, a great Variable pool, many Analyze skills.

The Thing; 450-600 pts typical brick

The Human Torch II; 450-600 pts too.

The Invisible Girl; Give this underated chick 450-600 pts too.

 

Now who wins?

 

JLA are the most powerful by far, their character ending up as the quintessence of their respective fields. However the Avengers are better-led and more polyvalent. The X-men are too, but does not seem enough disciplined to hold their own in this. The Avenger should win, with a little twist of plot. But if these teams were cut down to 4 members, they should all wield before the very synergic Fan-4. How can you lose with Reed Richards on your side?

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The way I figure, Flash and Green Lantern are around 1000 points too, not just Superman and the Marsian dude.

 

X-men or Fantastic Four would have trouble fighting ONE of those JLA members IMO.

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No kidding. What good are claws and healing really fast when your oppopnent can shoot lasers out of his eyes, fly and drop building on you? Or when he can drop buildings on you, change shape or walk through walls? Or imprison you in a green bubble and send you out in space until you suffocate?

 

I think the X-Men still have a 50-50 shot just because the writers gets to choose who wins, but doing a good write-up in Hero and then sending them against each other would result in a JLA win.

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If the X-Men are written as acting like a team, they stand a chance. However, if the writing gets sloppy and everyone simply "pairs off" to slug it out, they're doomed.

 

It also depends on which "classic" X-Men team we're talking about. The lineup of Cyclops, Jean Grey, Beast, Iceman, and Angel is a whole helluva lot weaker than Cyclops, Jean Grey, Beast, Iceman, Wolverine, Storm, Bishop, Rogue, Gambit, and "Joseph" (Magneto). I'd say the latter lineup is pretty well matched against the Avengers or the JLA.

 

Heck, each INDIVIDUAL X-Man goes through vast increases and decreases in power. Wolverine with an adamantium skeleton is much different than Wolverine without. Iceman has gone from a snowman who tosses snowballs at Magneto to one of the more versitile characters on the roster.

 

Currently even Juggernaut is part of the roster, and the good Prof can walk on his own power. Which brings up a further question, hasn't Juggernaut and Thor gone at it a few times in the past? Anyone know how those bouts went?

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As to the question about claws being effective, Wolverine with the Adamantium skeleton would be quite capable of cutting open the Man of Steel. Furthermore, Superman habitually holds back when fighting an unknown opponent, often letting the other guy throw the first blow.

 

I think that Superman would beat Wolverine in the end, because the claws and healing factor just can't stand up to all of Supes' advantages. But I see Wolverine taking the early initiative and suprising Big Blue with what he's capable of.

 

Visually, it would be a very cool fight. Wolverine carving big gashes in Superman's torso, Supes throwing that big punch and watching Woverine's jaw relocate even as they fight. Superman slowly taking the kid gloves further off as the fight continues, finally punching Wolverine hard enough to send the Canucklehead through buildings. Carnage abounding!

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Originally posted by SuperPheemy

It also depends on which "classic" X-Men team we're talking about. The lineup of Cyclops, Jean Grey, Beast, Iceman, and Angel is a whole helluva lot weaker than Cyclops, Jean Grey, Beast, Iceman, Wolverine, Storm, Bishop, Rogue, Gambit, and "Joseph" (Magneto). I'd say the latter lineup is pretty well matched against the Avengers or the JLA.

 

I'd say they couldn't even scratch superman. The dude can fly around the world under 1 sec (try to hit that target) and do a laservision sweep to vaporize not only the X-men, but the whole area around them without breaking sweat.

End of battle.

 

Avengers and FF would face the same destiny.

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Originally posted by Nucleon

Now who wins?

 

JLA are the most powerful by far, their character ending up as the quintessence of their respective fields. However the Avengers are better-led and more polyvalent. The X-men are too, but does not seem enough disciplined to hold their own in this. The Avenger should win, with a little twist of plot. But if these teams were cut down to 4 members, they should all wield before the very synergic Fan-4. How can you lose with Reed Richards on your side?

I have to agree with the 'JLA more powerful' 'Avengers better-led' statements. :) Somedays I SWEAR Captain America has combat skill levels usable by others...

 

And yeah, the FF is often under rated, but the Foursome I remember was down right formidible. Reed would look at the JLA, run calculations through his head , and deduce the nature and weaknesses of his opponents faster than you could say "Holy Deux Ex Machina!" :D

 

"Johny, attune your flames to the red scale, they should help negate that faux human fellow's invulnerability."

And if Marvel was writing this, that would work... ;)

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Cowboys and Indians

 

I shot you!

 

No your didnt, you missed!

 

My intergallactic ray-gun never misses!

 

Oh yeah, well my pan-cosmic forcefield deflects all blows!!!!

 

 

 

Etc etc etc

 

 

We are talking about fictional comic book characters. All comic book characters have a secret un-referenced attribute which is more important than all others. This attribute is "cool factor". Cool factor is a direct indicator of how well appreciated the character is by fans willing to shell out dollars to read completely contrived mini-stories about them.

 

Thus, in any real no-holds barred non-partisan 'fight' which would have to result in a clear winner and a clear loser (no Secret Wars bs here), the winners could be directly traced to which ever intellectual properties were expected to gross more in coming years, regardless of background, capabilities, or relative power levels.

 

Superman and Batman continue to be big grossers via liscencing to other media, so they'll survive; anything with Wolvie sells, so be sure he's gonna make it. Thor & Iron Man carry thier own books so they will survive. Professor X, Magneto by whatever name, and any other X-Man that is a) in the first movie and B) expected to be popular in the second movie will make it thru, etc. The lesser knowns are all Red-Shirts and will fall to better known/more profitable characters. Welcome to Intellectual Property land, where the bigger earners get all the bennys.

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Well, that's just cynical. Very true, but cynical.

 

Speculation is kinda fun after all. Making allowances for competative possibility (which is what the point totals at the beginning of this thread were designed to do I believe).

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I was going for mass combat teams, if you want teams of 4 the best is not the FF (in combat at least)- or a JLA composed of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and GL - or an Avengers composed of Thor, Iorn Man, Cap and whoever.

 

It's the Defendser - the line-up as of issue 1 Silver Surfer, Namor, Hulk and Dr. Strange - any team where Namor is the weakest member gets my vote.

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I once had visions of running a hero free for all built like the NCAA basketball braacket. Any number of teams each built on the same total points but fluctuation can occur on individual members. Then see how they would do. Of course this requires writing (and in many cases re-writing) hundreds of heroes and then having them battle. taking alot of time. But at the time I was thinking of it there were a lot of teams out there and some interesting matchups would occur

 

Avengers

Thunderbolts

Authority

Squadron Supreme

JLA

JSA

X-Men

Defenders

Legion of Superheroes

System 7 (defunct comic property)

Wildcats

Youngblood

Stormwatch

Fantastic Force (ie a number of the characters who have been a member of the FF; I felt it wrong to hold them to four characters)

New Warriors

Titans

Young Justice

can't think of any more at the moment. The only thing is there is some wild variation of power levels here.

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Originally posted by Colossus

I was going for mass combat teams, if you want teams of 4 the best is not the FF (in combat at least)- or a JLA composed of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and GL - or an Avengers composed of Thor, Iorn Man, Cap and whoever.

 

It's the Defendser - the line-up as of issue 1 Silver Surfer, Namor, Hulk and Dr. Strange - any team where Namor is the weakest member gets my vote.

 

Ook ook. Those Defenders. The JLA's power level, plus the Avengers' polyvalence. Why do people ever forget about them.

 

But hey, they would still lose to the Fan-4, IMHO. Such strongheaded individualists could hardly hope to beat the synergitic block that is the FF. And then there's Mr. Fantastic Deus Ex Machina.

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Originally posted by Colossus

I was going for mass combat teams, if you want teams of 4 the best is not the FF (in combat at least)- or a JLA composed of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and GL - or an Avengers composed of Thor, Iorn Man, Cap and whoever.

 

It's the Defendser - the line-up as of issue 1 Silver Surfer, Namor, Hulk and Dr. Strange - any team where Namor is the weakest member gets my vote.

 

I don't know. The Legion of Superheroes would be extremely tough.

 

Superboy

Mon-El

Element Lad

Your pick of Karate Kid, Wildfire, Sensor Girl, Cosmic Boy, Timberwolf, or Braniac 5

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Ordinarily, I'd say the JLA beats *both* the Avengers and the X-Men without much effort. But under the right circumstances, things don't go well for thr JLA.

 

For one example: Scarlet Witch vs. Superman -- she can strip him of his powers by making them improbable. Then, a simple magic blast sends him off to lala land (or to Boot Hill, if we're playing it that way).

 

Of course, if Batman has a chance to prepare, he can easily defeat the Avengers and the X-Men *by himself*. Hell, his plan, implemented by Ra's Al Ghul, took down the rest of the JLA during Morrison's tenure. Plus, Batman is nastier than anyone on any of those teams possibly excepting Wolverine. He just doesn't fight fair.

 

Thor's hammer is a magic weapon. Superman's in a world of hurt if Thor can tag him. Plus, Thor could conceivably send Supes (or anyone else) to some other dimension.

 

Flash gives the Avengers *all kinds* of problems -- they just don't have a speedster even close to his abilities. The Avengers *might* defeat him by using a vibranium dust grenade -- the metal would absorb his vibrational energy, and depower him for the few crucial seconds it would take to clobber him.

 

Basically, it all depends on who is given the better tactics, how much advance warning they have, what they know about their opponents, and how serious the contest is (i.e. how many stops are pulled out). In other words, it depends on who's writing the story. :)

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Originally posted by Morningstar70

I suppose since they allow Wolverine to cut the Hulk bad enough that he was sloshing guts all over the place, he might cause superficial bleeding on the Man of Steel.

 

Then Superman evaluates the metal with his X-Ray vision, and makes Logan's day truly suck by switching to heat vision and raising Logan's body temperature by 200 degrees by superheating the Adamantium. Enough to cause severe burns that his accelerated healing factor will be busy with, but not enough to cause serious damage.

 

Or, he could just punch Wolverine harder and harder until he dents and bends the mutant's skeleton.

 

Or huck him into space.

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The problem between X-Men vs. JLA has been summed up well already in a couple of posts. Just like you can pick Silver Age vs. Modern Day Superman you can also pick X-Men from any 'phase' and have a totally different power level.

 

My view is that if you found the proper point levels, the JLA is going to likely win. Now I say likely only because it is not a sure bet. The problem for the JLA is dealing with Rogue. In a one on one bout, the only one who stands a chance against her is the Green Lantern because his power comes from outside him and it gives him a cosmic level power that can't be absorbed.

 

This, however, is a team vs. team event. There are some clear members of the JLA that aren't on a level that can take on X-Men and there are those that are unstoppable. Batman is a very powerful superhero but he is one of the ones that can be taken down easily by the X-Men.

 

Really though, it gets down to the style of Marvel and DC. DC runs cosmically powerful heroes that are meant to be supernatural and well beyond humans. Marvel runs heroes that are powerful beyond humans but with clear ties to their human side. So, I admit that JLA will beat the X-Men but it is only because JLA runs them at that power scale.

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Originally posted by Super Squirrel

The problem for the JLA is dealing with Rogue. In a one on one bout, the only one who stands a chance against her is the Green Lantern because his power comes from outside him and it gives him a cosmic level power that can't be absorbed.

Rogue's big weakness is that she must touch her target to absorb his power. That means anyone with a ranged attack of suffiicient power can deal with her easily. That would include Superman, Green Lantern, Firestorm, Major Disaster, and a number of others I'm probably forgetting.

Originally posted by Super Squirrel

Batman is a very powerful superhero but he is one of the ones that can be taken down easily by the X-Men.

Taken down? Probably. Easily? No. First of all, Batman is much smarter than any of the X-Men with the possible exception of Xavier himself. Secondly, his tactical skill is far better. He wouldn't engage them in open combat if he was going alone -- he'd study them, determine their weakness, and use the resources he can access through his company and his contacts to build what he needs to take them down.

Originally posted by Super Squirrel

DC runs cosmically powerful heroes that are meant to be supernatural and well beyond humans. Marvel runs heroes that are powerful beyond humans but with clear ties to their human side. So, I admit that JLA will beat the X-Men but it is only because JLA runs them at that power scale.

True enough. Many Marvel heroes tend to be one trick ponies; this is certainly true of many X-Men. Whereas the JLA has folks whose powers inspire the Multipower and EC frameworks.

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Guest Champsguy
Originally posted by Balok

Ordinarily, I'd say the JLA beats *both* the Avengers and the X-Men without much effort. But under the right circumstances, things don't go well for thr JLA.

 

For one example: Scarlet Witch vs. Superman -- she can strip him of his powers by making them improbable. Then, a simple magic blast sends him off to lala land (or to Boot Hill, if we're playing it that way).

 

Of course, if Batman has a chance to prepare, he can easily defeat the Avengers and the X-Men *by himself*. Hell, his plan, implemented by Ra's Al Ghul, took down the rest of the JLA during Morrison's tenure. Plus, Batman is nastier than anyone on any of those teams possibly excepting Wolverine. He just doesn't fight fair.

 

Thor's hammer is a magic weapon. Superman's in a world of hurt if Thor can tag him. Plus, Thor could conceivably send Supes (or anyone else) to some other dimension.

 

Flash gives the Avengers *all kinds* of problems -- they just don't have a speedster even close to his abilities. The Avengers *might* defeat him by using a vibranium dust grenade -- the metal would absorb his vibrational energy, and depower him for the few crucial seconds it would take to clobber him.

 

I'm not sure about all of these.

 

I've heard this "Batman doesn't fight fair" stuff before, but I haven't ever seen it happen. Oh sure, he uses dirty tricks, but I think it's more reputation than anything else. At the end of the day, I haven't seen Batman ever do something on par with the kind of crap kindly old Professor X does. Batman doesn't rewrite people's memories when it suits him. Too many people on this board worship at the alter of the Bat-god. He may be mean, but so is a schoolyard bully. It doesn't mean much when he can't take advantage of the "my power doesn't work against blah blah" limitation that most DC powerhouses have.

 

By the way, that "Batman vs the JLA" crap was about as stupid as the "Punisher kills the Marvel Universe". I wish people would stop referencing it (if Batman was so great, why does he still have problems with Gotham criminals?).

 

The Flash is the fastest speedster around, but you've got to remember two things. One, the Avengers have dealt with speedsters before. Two, superspeed ain't as cool as many people think. If it was that cool, Flash wouldn't be background filler in the JLA. He'd single-handedly beat down their villains. Also, remember that Quicksilver is faster than Marvel claims. He's done (recently, too) intercontinental journeys in a matter of a minute or so. While not Flash-level speed, that puts him in the realm of Jessie Quick or Max Mercury. Wally beats him, but it's not a slaughter.

 

I think the JLA and the Avengers are a relatively even match (it really depends on which rosters we use). The big guns in the JLA have their equals in members of the Avengers. Most X-Men incarnations however, are outclassed.

 

The team that I wouldn't want to fight right now is the new Justice Society. Power Girl, Dr Fate, Captain Marvel, Black Adam, the original Green Lantern and the original Flash, Johnny Thunder and the Thunderbolt... ick.

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I honestly don't think there are any teams that can deal with a full strength Legion of Superheroes. They were extremely powerful, and there were lots of them. They may possibly be powerful enough to beat the Justice League, Avengers, and X-Men combined.

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The only way to resolve this for certain would be to specify things more clearly than has happened so far ... what the team rosters, how much and what each team knows about the other, who gets the drop, what level of power each character has (Quicksilver has ranged from "has to work to break the sound barrier" on up to "second tier DC speedster", for example.)

 

And even then, there would be room for disagreement.

 

P.S. to Champsguy: I used Batman vs. the JLA because it's canon. You may think it's stupid, and I happen to think it's improbable at the very least -- but it's canon. It got past DC editorial. We can disagree with it to our heart's content, but it's part of the mythos now.

 

If anything, this merely serves to emphasize the one unbreakable rule of these contests: the outcome depends on the writer and what he needs for his story.

 

A friend of mine once said the JLA would only need one character to beat the entire JLA -- Firestorm. He turns Iron Man into Plutonium Man, and the resulting explosion takes out the rest of the team. :)

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First of all lets get to the point of the matter. All cross-overs are subject to interpentation. So lets just have some fun here.

 

In the battle of the JLA vs. the Avengers, I Fell that it would go like this:

 

Superman and Thor would pair off and size each other up at the start.

 

She-Hulk goes after Wonder Woman and begins to try to use here STR to her advantage. Not knowing that

Wonder Woman is her equal in STR, and unaware that she is able to parry all the blows that the green skinned wonder can throw. Also all the blows that Wonder Woman lands on She-Hulk is absorbed by her natural body armour. This ends up just being a parry vs. knockback battle, destroying near 7 city blocks in the process.

 

The Martian Manhunter and the Vision takes turn trying to hit each other, all the time missing because one or the other goes desolid at the last minute. Martian Manhunter trys to use his mental powers but cant because the Vision is a machine.

 

Batman and Captain America will go toe-to-toe, all the time trying to figure out what the weakness of the other is.

 

Flash and Quicksilver take off running at superspeed and with both wanting to prove that he is the fastest, we never see them again (except in passing).

 

Firestorm goes after Iron Man, and Iron Man hits him with several good hits. This gets the better of Firestorm and just before he goes down for the count, he turns Iron Man's suit into a giant paperwieght. Both men are down for the count.

 

Here comes the Flash and Quicksilver.

 

Superman and Thor go at it and Superman gets tired of being hit by Thor's hammer. Superman uses his superspeed and puts some distance between him and Thor. Thor sees this as a sign of weakness nad throws his mighty hammer at Superman. Superman surprises Thor by catching the hammer and holding it, preventing it from returning to Thor. As only a person of great virtue can pick up let alone hold the mighty hammer, Thor quicky comes to the conclusion that this battle was caused by some evil force of great power. He approached Superman in peace and they begin to talk.

 

Look out for the Flash and Quicksilver

 

Batman and Captain America having come to the same conclusion 10 minutes eariler wonder what took them so long.

 

Superman goes to calm down Wonder Woman while Thor does the same for She-Hulk. Vision and the Martain Manhunter stop trying to hurt each other and also begin to talk.

 

Both teams revive their fallen members and Firestorm returns Iron Man suits back to working condition.

 

Flash and Quicksilver just passed by. Did anybody see them?

 

All the remaining menbers talk it over and realize theat this whole battle must have been cause by none other than........

 

Loki and Lex Luther. So begins another cross-over as our favorite heroes go after a couple of villians.

 

There goes the 2 speedsters again.............

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Marvel vs DC #1

 

Sam Bell ran a couple of these for Slugathon years ago. He also made some flyers:

 

attachment.php?s=&postid=17601

 

For those having problems reading the words:


  • The Official Game of Marvel vs DC
    Not a hoax, Not a dream, Not an imaginary story, It's a Champions Game!
    #1 Mar 87
    250 pts
    750 in Boston
    Recommended for mature Players
    @ Slugathon II
    With Batman saying "Maybe this wasn't such a good idea!"

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