How Much END?

[Hugh Neilson]

OK, your SuperCharacter fires off his Lightning Burst (12d6 Blast). It has no advantages, so it cost 60 AP. How much END did you mark off?

 

Reading the Questions board, I note that the correct answer is "7, one for using a combat maneuver and 6 for the END cost of a 60 AP power", just like the correct answer for a Punch at 60 STR would be "7, one for using a combat maneuver and 6 for the END cost of 60 AP of STR".

 

I'm curious as to how many people have followed this interpretation of the rules, and paid 1 END for the maneuver in addition to the cost of the power used in the maneuver.

 

How does this impact use of END reserves? Would you take 6 from the reserve and 1 from normal END? How often do you see the END reserve defined as including the costs of a maneuver? It seems reasonable a reserve that powers, say, weather powers pays the one point for the maneuver. What about when the weather manipulator wants to Dodge instead?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: How Much END?

 

I don't think my group has ever played it that way. If a maneuver uses a Power (including STR), then the maneuver costs no END. Maneuvers that do not use a Power (Block, Dodge, etc) cost 1 END.

[Doc Samson]

Re: How Much END?

 

I don't think my group has ever played it that way. If a maneuver uses a Power (including STR)' date=' then the maneuver costs no END. Maneuvers that do not use a Power (Block, Dodge, etc) cost 1 END.[/quote']

Ditto, we always used a flat APs/ 10 for supers games.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: How Much END?

 

/agree. I've always just used AP/10

[Daltwisney]

Re: How Much END?

 

You may want to re-read Steve's answer. Since the Energy Blast has an associated END cost (AP/10) and does not use STR, the default 1 END is not used.

 

In the case of the 60 STR punch, his answer does seem to imply that it should cost 7 END.

 

However, my group has also never used anything but AP/10 (or /5 for Heroic STR).

The 'other' maneuvers (Dodge, et al) are costed at 1 END.

I don't see any direct benefit or dire consequences arising from continuation of this practice, so I doubt we'll change it, 'official' answer or no.

[JmOz]

Re: How Much END?

 

Funny, we have always used manuevers as 0 enduarance (You pay for strength, or movement, or power or what have you)

[Hierax]

Re: How Much END?

 

If you have a 60 AP power or 60 STR punch it would be 6 END (or 12 if you're using the 1/5 instead of 1/10 as the baseline). Adding the 1 point for a maneuver, frankly, seems like a needless annoyance to me.

 

I thought maneuvers were 0 END, you only paid for the STR required (if any) -- e.g., a 0 END HA/HKA wouldn't cost any END except for whatever STR you choose to add to it.

 

I can see using 1 END as the minimum END for anything that is a non- 0 END action but adding 1 END to everything you do IMO adds needless complication without any benefit. YMMV.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How Much END?

 

Yeah, I've always used 1 End as a minimum, not additional, and often ignore even that if it doesn't seem like a strenuous action. I also ignore this for characters (like automatons) whose Str and movement have been bought down to 0 End.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How Much END?

 

The RAW does seem to make STR some weird exception to the rule - but Steve's answer is pretty clear: 1 END for a Maneuver if there is no other associated Endurance Cost.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: How Much END?

 

To answer the original questions: I'd mark off 6 END for a 60-point Blast, likewise 6 END for a 60-STR Strike punch.

 

After re-reading Steve's answer and referencing 6e, however, I'm still confused. Here's Steve's answer:

 

"As stated on 6E2 54 (which references 6E2 131), using a Combat Maneuver typically costs 1 END, plus the END for any STR involved (if the Maneuver uses STR; many of course don't do so directly). 6E2 131 simply states a more general rule that, unless the GM rules otherwise, if an action doesn't specifically use STR or have some other associated END cost, it costs 1 END. This isn't on top of any specified END cost (like the END cost for using a Power); it's the system "default END cost" for trivial Actions and Maneuvers that don't have some other END cost stated." (Bold text mine.)

 

The text on 6E2 131 does NOT state "or having some other associated END cost for using a Power"; it says, "Some Manuevers and other Actions don't have a listed STR value. In such cases, a character spends 1 END (unless the GM rules otherwise)."

 

6E2 54 states, "Using a Combat Manuever typically costs 1 END (see 6E2 131), and the character also has to pay the END cost for any STR or power used with the Maneuver." (Bold text mine.) (And yes, "power" is not capitalized in the text.)

 

Attacking someone with a Blast is an "Other Attacks" Maneuver (6E2 56, also see 6E2 83 - note that Other Attacks is out of alphabetical order). An Other Attack has no STR listed under Effects.

 

Therefore, I conclude that the RAW do, in fact, require 7 END for a 60-point Blast and 7 END for a 60-STR Strike punch (and 6 END for a 60-STR Martial Strike punch), but that Steve's answer is that the 1 END rule is a minimum for doing something and doesn't apply when END from STR or a Power applies.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: How Much END?

 

I checked 5e, and this was the same:

 

5E383: "Using a Combat Maneuver typically costs 1 END (see page 425), and the character also has to pay the END cost for any STR or power used with the Maneuver."

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How Much END?

 

Looks like a bunch of us have been doing it wrong for a while.

Good catch SCUBA Hero.

[dmjalund]

Re: How Much END?

 

What would one have to buy to zero END, to have maneuvers cost zero END?

[ghost-angel]

Re: How Much END?

 

Presumably, one would simply need to Purchase the Maneuvers as "Martial Maneuvers" - which do not cost END to use. I would say every Base Maneuver costs 3 Points flat; assuming one even does this.

 

Personally... I doubt I'd ever do it this way. It comes in under "just enough book keeping to be too much book keeping."

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How Much END?

 

Presumably, one would simply need to Purchase the Maneuvers as "Martial Maneuvers" - which do not cost END to use. I would say every Base Maneuver costs 3 Points flat; assuming one even does this.

 

Personally... I doubt I'd ever do it this way. It comes in under "just enough book keeping to be too much book keeping."

 

As far as actually running a battle I agree completely. But I could see such a rule coming into play when the PC's are in a long term defensive fight against large numbers of lesser opponents. No reason to not factor it in when using LTE rules and such. Give the MA characters a slight bonus over traditional Bricks for such situations.

[Mister E]

Re: How Much END?

 

What would one have to buy to zero END' date=' to have maneuvers cost zero END?[/quote']

 

I would presume this to be a naked advantage.

 

Effortless Maneuvering: Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) for up to 3 Active Points of Combat Maneuvers (1 Active Point). 1 Character Point.

 

EDIT: Appropriately, Naked Reduced Endurance Advantages automatically cost 0 END.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How Much END?

 

I assume that the reason maneuvers cost a bit of Endurance is that you're using at least a minimal amount of Str and/or Movement to act them out. Therefore, if both your Str and your active Movement power cost 0 End, I wouldn't charge you for a normal maneuver. This fits quite in line with your typical robot or other Automaton that has put 0 End on all of its Str, movement, and other powers and sold off all of its Endurance.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How Much END?

 

I would presume this to be a naked advantage.

 

Effortless Maneuvering: Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) for up to 3 Active Points of Combat Maneuvers (1 Active Point). 1 Character Point.

 

EDIT: Appropriately, Naked Reduced Endurance Advantages automatically cost 0 END.

 

Except that's not how Advantages for Maneuvers work. For a basic Strike, given 60 STR, it would cost 30 Points to make it 0END; (Hero System Martial Arts pp106-108). Which is - not in any way coincidental - the cost to just make the Characters Strength cost 0END.

[Mister E]

Re: How Much END?

 

Except that's not how Advantages for Maneuvers work. For a basic Strike' date=' given 60 STR, it would cost 30 Points to make it 0END; (Hero System Martial Arts pp106-108). Which is - not in any way coincidental - the cost to just make the Characters Strength cost 0END.[/quote']

 

Sounds good to me.

 

The first thing that came to my mind was to merely make STR cost 0 END. Then I thought, "well... this is only supposed to be for the maneuver... 0 END STR can be bought separately." So I made the distinction between maneuver END cost and STR END cost.

[dmjalund]

Re: How Much END?

 

One could buy 0 END for 10 STR (limit - only when using maneuvers) as since it costs 1 END, you are only using 10 STR in the maneuver

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How Much END?

 

I assume that the reason maneuvers cost a bit of Endurance is that you're using at least a minimal amount of Str and/or Movement to act them out. Therefore' date=' if both your Str and your active Movement power cost 0 End, I wouldn't charge you for a normal maneuver. This fits quite in line with your typical robot or other Automaton that has put 0 End on all of its Str, movement, and other powers and sold off all of its Endurance.[/quote']

 

All published Automatons which bought their STR and Movement to 0 END and sold off all their Endurance, would be unable to perform any Combat Maneuvers if said Maneuver cost additional Endurance to perform.

 

However, this would hardly be the first inconsistency to be found in the RAW.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: How Much END?

 

All published Automatons which bought their STR and Movement to 0 END and sold off all their Endurance' date=' would be unable to perform any Combat Maneuvers if said Maneuver cost additional Endurance to perform.[/quote']This is actually the first thing I thought of... the second being, "how does one buy 0 END on Maneuvers?". However, most (if not all) of the published Automatons that sold and END and bought STR and Movement to 0 END also have 'Takes No Stun' ... so ... theoretically, the Automaton performs a Strike, takes Stun that actually doesn't matter ...

 

... okay, weak I know, but I was trying to come up with something...