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How Much DCV?


Hugh Neilson

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From another thread...

 

I know' date=' one of my current players has literally double the defence of anyone else (highest is 20 except for his 40) but a DCV in the cellar (a four, where most characters have 10's). After two sessions it has not been too bad[/quote']

 

OK, so if the typical character has a DCV of 10, I imagine they also have an OCV in the range of 10 to have a decent shot at connecting.

 

Why not instead leave your OCV at 3 or 4 (saving 30 points for a 4 OCV over that OCV of 10) and buy "Naked Advantage - AoE +1/4 (fills 1 meter by 1 meter; only hits one target in area)" for attack powers? For 15 points, I strike against DCV 3 with any attack power up to 60 AP. If I spend 20, I can use attack powers up to 80 AP.

 

I hit on a 12-, which is better than the guy who paid for the 10 OCV can manage against the typical 10 DCV target. I'll miss the 4 DCV target more often, but I also hit the guy with a 15 DCV pretty easily, so that seems a reasonable tradeoff.

 

I', ignoring issues of concept, of course, but we can always come up with concepts to justify mechanics. Once DCV hits a certain "average" level, it seems like using the "strikes a DCV of 3" aspect of AoE becomes much more cost-effective than buying up your OCV.

 

Does that mean OCV is overpriced? Maybe DCV as well, but that seems better balanced with the cost of defenses (especially as you need defenses against all kinds of different attacks, and DCV avoids all of them - unless they are AoE or attacks vs mental CV)?

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

From a metagaming standpoint, maybe AoE is the way to go, but from a conceptual standpoint I want justification for that power. I think it really just lets you build a lot of different characters, each effective in their own way, and each representing the special effect you want. If you have a big brick with a club, AoE might be just the thing. But if you want a sharpshooter that can pick off terrorists without endangering their hostages, the high OCV is the way to go. In the average combat they might be roughly equal, but each shines on their own terms in the right situation.

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

I've used this idea to represent the superspeed accurate attacks of Superman, Captain Marvel (Shazam) and Flash. Their superspeed attacks (AOE 1 hex accurate HA) are so fast that normal DCV or even Dodging is ineffective as a defense. Attacking the 'attack' (Block) or literally moving away (DFC) are the only effective defensive options.

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

Also remember that (at least in 5E) you can still Dodge a 1 Hex Accurate AoE attack, which would bump the DCV to 6, and even more if they use Martial Dodge or have DCV levels purchased "only while Dodging". Of course they lose their action for aborting to Dodge, or by using their current action to Dodge, but it's still something to consider.

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

OCV doesn't add to Damage Classes, AoE does. So you might want both, but in most games (where they have DC or AP caps) your non-AoE attack will do more dice of damage.

 

Plus you can get hit locations (if you use them) with the non-AoE. So for a +1/2 you could get +2 Stun Multiple, since you are just going to headshot that guy anyway.

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

Sounds like you need to enforce caps on DEF. 20 points max is standard while 40+ is at the Cosmically powerful...this is a pretty big difference. If he has already started to use this character you can have him max his DEF at 20 and then use the extra points to buy damage reduction instead which would still make him the toughest guy on the block.

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

First, PLEASE clean up my not paying close attention to what I type quote, the spelling/grammer is horendous.

 

Now the character in question, called gargoyle, as I said has not been a problem yet. In the first session he took a few stun damage but was no more effective than are invisible blaster. In the second session he wandered around blind most of the time. I am not saying there will not be problems later, but so far it has not been a problem. Admitingly I allowed it as an experiment, and will be keeping a close eye on it.

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

I've used this idea to represent the superspeed accurate attacks of Superman' date=' Captain Marvel (Shazam) and Flash. Their superspeed attacks (AOE 1 hex accurate HA) are so fast that normal DCV or even Dodging is ineffective as a defense. Attacking the 'attack' (Block) or literally moving away (DFC) are the only effective defensive options.[/quote']

 

Neat. :thumbup:

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

There’s another thing to consider. If the approach is taken of “damn the character concept” and simply buy all attacks with AoE in lieu of raising OCV what’s to stop everyone else from saying “fine, screw character concept” and buying up their DEFenses instead of raising DVC? This possible problem is compounded if you use Active Point Caps, since, as mentioned above, AoE counts towards the AP of the attack which lowers the amount of damage the attack can actually do. If everyone used this approach I could see a situation where everyone hits everyone else most of the time due to the AoE, yet only ever achieves minimal damage since everyone bought big time Defenses with the points they saved from not increasing their DCV and OCV. A game full of characters with Brick level defenses that almost always hit but have a hell of a time actually damaging each other really doesn’t sound interesting to me…

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

There’s another thing to consider. If the approach is taken of “damn the character concept” and simply buy all attacks with AoE in lieu of raising OCV what’s to stop everyone else from saying “fine' date=' screw character concept” and buying up their DEFenses instead of raising DVC? This possible problem is compounded if you use Active Point Caps, since, as mentioned above, AoE counts towards the AP of the attack which lowers the amount of damage the attack can actually do. If everyone used this approach I could see a situation where everyone hits everyone else most of the time due to the AoE, yet only ever achieves minimal damage since everyone bought big time Defenses with the points they saved from not increasing their DCV and OCV. A game full of characters with Brick level defenses that almost always hit but have a hell of a time actually damaging each other really doesn’t sound interesting to me…[/size']

 

Then that GM is just not doing a very good job. Enforcing concept/schtick is far more important than any specific hard cap value.

 

In my previous example I mentioned characters with 'superspeed'. I also built versions of all 3 with multipower slots with 3 Overall Levels that cost END as another aspect of superspeed. The levels can obviously be used like 8 point All Combat CSL's. Less obvious is the fact that they can also be used to increase the chance of success with DFC (dive for cover) by increasing the DEX roll (Overall remember). Those levels can also be used to manipulate the Time Chart. For every 3 Overall Levels, characters can perform actions 1 step down the Time Chart (an action that normally takes 1 Minute now takes 1 Turn, etc....)

 

The AOE 1 hex accurate advantaged HA's also contributes to a de facto 'martial arts' type of options as well. It's a near guaranteed hit (a boxing "Jab" so to speak) that does less damage than other damage intensive multipower options they might have (in the case of Superman & Captain Marvel at least).

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

I wasn't criticizing your use of Accurate AoE, and yes the example I give would be a very poor GM indeed. I was simply trying to answer the OP’s question of:

Why not instead leave your OCV at 3 or 4 (saving 30 points for a 4 OCV over that OCV of 10) and buy "Naked Advantage - AoE +1/4 (fills 1 meter by 1 meter; only hits one target in area)" for attack powers? For 15 points' date=' I strike against DCV 3 with any attack power up to 60 AP. If I spend 20, I can use attack powers up to 80 AP.[/quote']

Keeping in mind that he specifically said:

I'' date=' [b']ignoring issues of concept[/b], of course, but we can always come up with concepts to justify mechanics. Once DCV hits a certain "average" level, it seems like using the "strikes a DCV of 3" aspect of AoE becomes much more cost-effective than buying up your OCV.

While I’m sure no competent GM would let a game devolve to the extent I used as an example, it was an extreme example used to convey the tone or player mentality that such practices might promote. The whole concept seems very meta-gamey to me, and I doubt it would truly work as an across the board practice that everyone used without majorly changing the game.

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

There's another thing to consider. If the approach is taken of "damn the character concept" and simply buy all attacks with AoE in lieu of raising OCV what's to stop everyone else from saying "fine' date=' screw character concept" and buying up their DEFenses instead of raising DVC?[/quote']

 

I'' date=' ignoring issues of concept, of course, but we can always come up with concepts to justify mechanics. [/quote']

 

Then that GM is just not doing a very good job. Enforcing concept/schtick is far more important than any specific hard cap value.

 

I'm guessing that bigbywolf was talking about the above part by Hugh. If so, I have to echo Hyper-Man's comment above, adding that enforcing concept/schtick is also more important than cost savings and pure mathematical effectiveness. Just because you can do something and then shoehorn in some pseudo-concept to justify it, doesn't mean you should.

 

As a GM, I would definitely allow the AOE-hex-accurate on individual attacks as HM pointed out for high-speed jabs and the like, but not as a naked advantage to use on all attacks. When I see stuff like that, the first thing I hear is a bunch of high-pitched voices singing, "Follow the yellow brick road...".

 

[Edit: And that's what I get for taking too long to post. Bigbywolf already covered it pretty well.]

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

I'm guessing that bigbywolf was talking about the above part by Hugh. If so' date=' I have to echo Hyper-Man's comment above, adding that enforcing concept/schtick is also more important than cost savings and pure mathematical effectiveness. Just because you [u']can[/u] do something and then shoehorn in some pseudo-concept to justify it, doesn't mean you should.

 

As a GM, I would definitely allow the AOE-hex-accurate on individual attacks as HM pointed out for high-speed jabs and the like, but not as a naked advantage to use on all attacks. When I see stuff like that, the first thing I hear is a bunch of high-pitched voices singing, "Follow the yellow brick road...".

 

[Edit: And that's what I get for taking too long to post. Bigbywolf already covered it pretty well.]

 

The problem is that the system doesn't function if DCV range isn't regulated. At all. There comes a point where it becomes kludgy, and you have to set a DCV MINIMUM, or all characters look sort of like this:

 

DCV is irrelevant when:

 

1) People are buying area effect attacks so that they don't have to worry about people dodging

 

or

 

2) People don't like the way the dice fall. If your GM is particularly lucky with dice, or knows the rules really well, they'll say things like "It doesn't matter what I do. I'm going to get hit anyway."

 

or

 

3) Their concept of the world and yours don't match at all. This is something to have a statement about on my site, I think. I'll put something up later tonight or tomorrow.

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

How often does Superman or Thor actually miss with a punch or hammer strike?

How often do they get missed by other 'bricks' they are fighting?

Not very often in most source material I've seen.

'Balance' enforcement at a level comparable to most wargames can be counterproductive sometimes.

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

How often does Superman or Thor actually miss with a punch or hammer strike?

How often do they get missed by other 'bricks' they are fighting?

Not very often in most source material I've seen.

'Balance' enforcement at a level comparable to most wargames can be counterproductive sometimes.

 

Hmmm. This is interesting. I was never going to use HERO to run superheroes ever again - I'm not convinced it does it very well - too much emphasis on CVs and DCs than on interesting powers.

 

However, I was wondering if I might be able to put together a HERO based superhero game which did not have CVs. Characters would have a certain SPD and their attacks always hit - what you did was vary the damage applied depending on actions etc.

 

Will have to give it some thought and try it with my group....

 

 

Doc

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

Also remember that (at least in 5E) you can still Dodge a 1 Hex Accurate AoE attack' date=' which would bump the DCV to 6, and even more if they use Martial Dodge or have DCV levels purchased "only while Dodging". Of course they lose their action for aborting to Dodge, or by using their current action to Dodge, but it's still something to consider.[/quote']

 

That tactic will be equally effective in avoiding attacks from the fellow who bought his OCV up, so the AoE approach is no worse off.

 

I'm guessing that bigbywolf was talking about the above part by Hugh. If so' date=' I have to echo Hyper-Man's comment above, adding that enforcing concept/schtick is also more important than cost savings and pure mathematical effectiveness. Just because you [u']can[/u] do something and then shoehorn in some pseudo-concept to justify it, doesn't mean you should.

 

While I agree with schtick enforcement, I do not agree that one schtick should be mechanically more cost-effective than another. With an average DCV of 10 and average DC's of 12, "naked advantage AoE accurate" to enhance that 12 DC attack is more cost effective than buying OCV up to 10. Why should the sharpshoter be more expensive than the Big Club if both are equally effective?

 

As a GM' date=' I would definitely allow the AOE-hex-accurate on individual attacks as HM pointed out for high-speed jabs and the like, but not as a naked advantage to use on [u']all[/u] attacks.

 

That Naked Advantage simply represents the speedster making any attack at such a high speed it is impossible to dodge using ordinary DCV or Dodge - the exact same SFX as the high speed jab, and just as valid an SFX in my opinion. I'm reminded of a speedster bragging that he could land a hundred punches before his non-speedster opponent could even form the intent to avoid his blows.

 

When I see stuff like that' date=' the first thing I hear is a bunch of high-pitched voices singing, "Follow the yellow brick road...".[/quote']

 

If the Naked AoE advantage carried a cost comparable to achieving a similar effect with OCV, then this would not seem so munchkinny, would it? And I note this character will miss low DCV targets far more often than the 10 OCV sharpshooter - doesn't that balance it out? It should - if the relative point costs are appropriate.

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

Sometimes a think that it just has to come down to the GM enforcing a certain amount of evenness in the campaign. In my campaign I didn't let anyone go over 8 DCs of damage (even to the point of artificially lowering the amount of extra DCs in a martial maneuver) except the team brick who gets to have 8 DCs. I've got another character who's DEF is almost twice what I 'allowed' but it's in her MP so if she jacks up her DEF that high, she can't attack. Sometimes it makes no sense, and it's more expensive that it should be (or cheaper).

 

Sometimes we have to enforce the roles and tropes. I don't believe it is possible to necessarily completely balance everything. As nice as it would be, different powers have different effects and they can interact in ways that can be very effective in some cases.

 

You are very correct in everything. It IS more effective per point, in many cases, to purchase an AoE Hex for your powers instead of lots of OCV. This is kind of why we get the big bucks to sit behind the screen. :)

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

If the Naked AoE advantage carried a cost comparable to achieving a similar effect with OCV' date=' then this would not seem so munchkinny, would it? And I note this character will miss low DCV targets far more often than the 10 OCV sharpshooter - doesn't that balance it out? It should - if the relative point costs are appropriate.[/quote']

 

Personally, I find most *any* use of a Naked Advantage to be rather munchkinny. Why buy up your Endurance at all or pay for Reduced END on *any* of your powers, when you can just buy 0 END on *all* powers? Basically, to me it gives an overall vibe of "screw the concept, what's the most cost-efficient way to min-max the system?".

 

YMMV, and obviously it does. This is all my opinion, no more or less valid than anyone else's.

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

Personally, I find most *any* use of a Naked Advantage to be rather munchkinny. Why buy up your Endurance at all or pay for Reduced END on *any* of your powers, when you can just buy 0 END on *all* powers? Basically, to me it gives an overall vibe of "screw the concept, what's the most cost-efficient way to min-max the system?".

 

YMMV, and obviously it does. This is all my opinion, no more or less valid than anyone else's.

 

It would be just as easy to create the same effect by placing AoE Accurate on all your attack powers. A Brick placing this on 60 STR pays 15 points. A Multipower of 5 attack powers at 60 AP costs 90 points. Bumping it up to 5 75 AP powers makes it 110, so a 20 point increase. Same effect, but the naked advantage you take offense to is removed.

 

While I don't entirely disagree that the players and GM must contribute to the balance of the game, at the same time if the points have no real meaning, why use them at all? Just put the characters together in a balanced manner without costing out their abilities at all. Why put everyone through the extra effort of balancing to their 400 (or whatever number) available points if the points have no real meaning anyway.

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

Personally, I find most *any* use of a Naked Advantage to be rather munchkinny. Why buy up your Endurance at all or pay for Reduced END on *any* of your powers, when you can just buy 0 END on *all* powers? Basically, to me it gives an overall vibe of "screw the concept, what's the most cost-efficient way to min-max the system?".

 

YMMV, and obviously it does. This is all my opinion, no more or less valid than anyone else's.

 

While it is possible to go all munchkinny with Naked Advantages, I think it also opens up a HUGE range of possibilities and concepts that were nearly impossible or difficult before. Naked Advantages do require close monitoring and if they were an actual Power would definitely have a Stop Sign on them.

 

I've used a LOT of Naked Advantages that are extremely appropriate for the character's concept and aren't a bit munchkinny.

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Re: How Much DCV?

 

I didn't say that I *always* find Naked Advantages munchkinny, by the way. The key phrase, to me, in Rapier's statement is "... extremely appropriate for the character's concept...". Off the top of my head, I can think of several times where NA might be the preferred route to go -- and none of them, by the way, have to do with cost.

 

After some thought last night, I think I figured out what rubs me the wrong way about Naked Advantages. It's the way they can be applied to *any* power for no additional cost that strikes me as being off-kilter.

 

If you want to be able to use any Advantage (up to a given value) on a particular power, you use Variable Advantage. However, you have to pay extra for that privelege. Naked Advantage is, to me, basically the flip side of that. You want to use a particular Advantage on any power (up to a given value). But with Naked Advantage, you basically get that privelege for no additional cost.

 

I'd be perfectly happy with Naked Advantage for one or maybe two powers being at base cost, but increasing the cost if it's being used with *any* powers.

 

Again, this is just my take on it. Take it for what you will.

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