How Much DCV?

[dmjalund]

Re: How Much DCV?

 

I would follow the rule for Adjustment Powers

+0 Advantage can only affect 1 power

+1/2 Advantage can affect any power that shares a special effect (any of the powers in a multipower for instance)

(if it is for only two powers, this could be reduced to +1/4)

[Rapier]

Re: How Much DCV?

 

Naked Advantages are particularly contra-indicated with MP slots.

 

Generally, a character cannot purchase a naked Power Advantage or Adder that adds to any slot in a Power Framework.

 

Now, it does go on into the standard Hero disclaimer that a GM can overrule this and can allow a Naked Advantage on an MP slot if dramatic license, common sense, etc.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: How Much DCV?

 

I presume that you are referring to my suggestion of doing away with CVs?

 

I'm not sure how you could know that when I haven't outlined the implementation but this was my first thought. I think that the presence of Damage Negation as a power leads me to this - dodging would not prevent the attack hitting (in game terms) but could negate all of the damage.

 

I haven't thought it through yet - so there will be holes in my logic but I am thinking of a place where you do not roll to hit but others may use their actions to negate the effects of that hit - Utech suggested in this thread that there might be a place for offensive and defensive SPD. I am thinking of bringing that in here too so that you can actively as well as passively defend but focus the action on the damage caused rather than on whether an attack hit.

 

I am thinking that I might be able to remove one mechanism (the to hit roll) from a system overburdened with a variety of ways to do things....

 

Early days and rough thoughts really but I am intrigued to how it would play...

 

 

Doc

 

That would discriminate against speedster types who survive by dodging attacks

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: How Much DCV?

 

I would follow the rule for Adjustment Powers

+0 Advantage can only affect 1 power

+1/2 Advantage can affect any power that shares a special effect (any of the powers in a multipower for instance)

(if it is for only two powers, this could be reduced to +1/4)

 

This is the way I have always handled Naked Advantages that could be applied to multiple powers, and it works well.

[Christougher]

Re: How Much DCV?

 

After some thought last night, I think I figured out what rubs me the wrong way about Naked Advantages. It's the way they can be applied to *any* power for no additional cost that strikes me as being off-kilter.

 

If you want to be able to use any Advantage (up to a given value) on a particular power, you use Variable Advantage. However, you have to pay extra for that privelege. Naked Advantage is, to me, basically the flip side of that. You want to use a particular Advantage on any power (up to a given value). But with Naked Advantage, you basically get that privelege for no additional cost.

 

I'd be perfectly happy with Naked Advantage for one or maybe two powers being at base cost, but increasing the cost if it's being used with *any* powers.

 

WaitHuhWhat?! Can you provide a reference that NAs can be applied to any power? I've never used or believed them in that manner, it was always to a single effect, like Zero END on STR, requiring a different NA to make your base running Zero END too.

[JmOz]

Re: How Much DCV?

 

6e1 pg 314 talks about using it on a group of similar abilities (example is all guns). Wether a GM would allow (All my normal endurance uses) is questionable...I might in some games, but would definatly not in others

[Daltwisney]

Re: How Much DCV?

 

Why not instead leave your OCV at 3 or 4 (saving 30 points for a 4 OCV over that OCV of 10) and buy "Naked Advantage - AoE +1/4 (fills 1 meter by 1 meter; only hits one target in area)" for attack powers? For 15 points' date=' I strike against DCV 3 with any attack power up to 60 AP. If I spend 20, I can use attack powers up to 80 AP.[/quote']

 

There have been some good points made on both sides of this debate, however, I think it is noteworthy to point out that AOE Accurate is a +1/2 Advantage (Accurate is +1/4 on top of AoE), so the character pays the same 30 points for the Naked Advantage as he would for the 10 OCV (assuming the 4 base). Also, he pays 3 END for each attack that he uses the Naked Advantage on, on top of the attack's normal END cost.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How Much DCV?

 

There have been some good points made on both sides of this debate' date=' however, I think it is noteworthy to point out that AOE Accurate is a +1/2 Advantage (Accurate is +1/4 on top of AoE), so the character pays the same 30 points for the Naked Advantage as he would for the 10 OCV (assuming the 4 base). Also, he pays 3 END for each attack that he uses the Naked Advantage on, on top of the attack's normal END cost.[/quote']

 

Why so it is! I'm not sure how I fel about "hitting only one target in the radius" for +1/2 when I can hit everyone in that 1 meter radius for +1/4. In any case, this costing bumps the average DCV needed to make the Naked AoE worthwhile.

[Daltwisney]

Re: How Much DCV?

 

Why so it is! I'm not sure how I fel about "hitting only one target in the radius" for +1/2 when I can hit everyone in that 1 meter radius for +1/4. In any case' date=' this costing bumps the average DCV needed to make the Naked AoE worthwhile.[/quote']

 

For that +1/4, you can hit everyone in that 1m radius, but you also hit everything else in that radius, which is not always desirable. It gives you more control, thus it is a bigger advantage. If you use it for things it is not specifically intended to model, then the 'only 1 target' might seem like a limitation, but (damaging) AoEs in general can cause a lot of collateral damage, and this allows you to avoid that.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: How Much DCV?

 

For that +1/4' date=' you can hit everyone in that 1m radius, but you also hit everything else in that radius, which is not always desirable. It gives you more control, thus it is a bigger advantage. If you use it for things it is not specifically intended to model, then the 'only 1 target' might seem like a limitation, but (damaging) AoEs in general can cause a lot of collateral damage, and this allows you to avoid that.[/quote']

 

Yep. If you're trying to hit, say, an agent holding a hostage, hitting everything in the AoE isn't really desirable.

 

Oh, and rep for catching the discrepancy in the first place.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How Much DCV?

 

For that +1/4' date=' you can hit everyone in that 1m radius, but you also hit everything else in that radius, which is not always desirable. It gives you more control, thus it is a bigger advantage. If you use it for things it is not specifically intended to model, then the 'only 1 target' might seem like a limitation, but (damaging) AoEs in general can cause a lot of collateral damage, and this allows you to avoid that.[/quote']

 

I'm not fully sold. I agree there is an advantage, but there is also an offsetting drawback. And a larger area of effect enhances collateral damage along with increasing available targets, and is still an advantage.

 

Additionally, the present approach allows me to pay +1/2 to target a single person in a 1 meter radius and hit DCV 3, but I would have to pay +3/4 to choose any or all targets I want within that area and attack vs their normal DCV. In a 1 meter radius, picking a single target and attacking at DCV 3 seems a lot more useful that targetting any number of targets at their regular DCV.

 

At the same time, the ability to ignore the opponent's DCV is a powerful one. I wonder whether AoE should be modified to allow solely the ability to target everyone in the area (ie make AoE is nonselective by default, with a +1/2 added for selective, allowing you to choose your targets within the area of effect), and "Ignores DCV" should be a separate +1/2 advantage which makes all targets (or the AoE itself in the case of an attack which targets an area) target DCV 3 instead of the target's DCV. You would then pay +1/2 for an attack that targets a single person and attacks DCV 3 instead of his DCV. If that attack is AoE, you only have to hit the DCV 3 hex to hit everyone in the area (or everyone you want if your AoE has the +1/2 Selective modifier).

 

This might even mean the smallest AoE becomes a +0 advantage, with the advantage of multiple targets in that small area offset by the drawback of collateral damage (or the base +1/4 could have an increased size - but I lean to starting with the smaller sizes).